Template talk:MedalTop/Archive 2

Games location with year?
I've noticed usage of these templates where author has put the games location with the year (e.g. Clara Hughes) or just the year only (e.g. Donovan Bailey). Should we try to adopt a standard notation? I note that the examples on this talk page show the year only, but I can see arguments for both styles. I would just prefer we were consistent; I'm comfortable making editing changes either way. Andrwsc 21:06, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't have a strong opinion, although I'm leaning slightly towards having them with the city name. It should be consistent. Sue Anne 21:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Definitly year and location. —Ruud 22:02, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I like year and location, but I don't like how sometimes the year forces a second line... but I can't find any examples right now, so I suppose it's not too much of a problem! tiZom(2¢)  15:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm in favor of year and city. I've been doing that with all of my updates. Having just the year seems very lacking to me. I'm also guilty of putting in Torino for the city name, but now that we have addressed that standard, I'm switching to Turin. - Don Sowell 17:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm strongly against that because it forces a second line and makes the medal list look ugly, and the info can be easily retrieved by clicking on the link... I urge you to reconsider, but if I'm the only one who finds this ugly, then I won't object if you continue with adding of the city name. But, please stop for a day and reconsider. Thank you. --Dijxtra 14:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * not against the principle - but certainly against any bad display aspects. Don't forget not everyone works with the same equipment as each other. Also bear in mind that some City names are quite long "Lillihammer" for instance. :: Kevinalewis  :  (Talk Page)  16:57, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There are two major things working to force the second line in those cells:
 * The city name does indeed make it pretty lengthy, but I've found that it gives a really nice frame of reference, especially for more recent games.
 * Making the event gender-specific (i.e. Women's 10km) is both redundant (it should be part of the Sport cell), and it causes a little bit of length.
 * I noticed these last night, and extended the box from 30% to 35%, and that seemed to eliminate most of the forced second lines, at least on my browser. tiZom(2¢)  21:32, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, and I was using a lower-resolution screen. It's almost too much space on the higher resolution screens.  tiZom(2¢)  21:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There is a well known saying in software engineering: "never ever output incorrect information even if it makes things look ugly." I think this applies here as well. When I will start working on several of the articles on speed skaters, I will create a "merged" which will display the medals won at both the Olymics, World Cup and World Championship. Displaying the year alone will no longer supply enough information. —Ruud 20:53, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This is an issue that should be address on everything. I think there should be separate "infoboxes" for each major category of competition - Olympics, World Cup, World Championships, etc. It's not just the speed skaters that have this issue, but almost all the athletes. Sue Anne 23:15, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Since there seems to be a consensus that the year and location should be displayed, and also since the table has been altered to fit any sized text, I'm going ahead and beginning the change. There are 1500 articles that have the Medal templates, so it will be a while.  As far as merging the boxes, I personally think they look better separate, but I wouldn't mind them together.  It would be a lot of work merging them together, but if we were to do it, we could:
 * Add a { {MedalRecordType|Olympic}} to all current articles using a bot
 * Change the templates so that { {MedalTop}} just opened the table, and { {MedalRecordType|Olympics}}, for example, became a header.
 * God, I wish meta-templates weren't so disruptive to WP :o(  Does anyone know of any other way we could do that?  tiZom(2¢)  23:34, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Where should the wikilinked fields point?
Another question has come up for me. What should the various fields link to? For the MedalSport field, I've seen links to the generic sports page (i.e. Athletics) and also to the Olympic summary page (e.g. Athletics at the Summer Olympics). I think the latter makes most sense.

What about the fields in the MedalGold et. al. rows: Should the year (& location, depending on opinion above) link to the games-specific sport page (e.g. Athletics at the 2004 Summer Olympics or just to the "root" page for the games (e.g. 2004 Summer Olympics).  I think the sport page makes most sense, but that doesn't seem to be as common. Comments?  Andrwsc 22:23, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * The more specific, the better, I say. -- Jonel | Speak 01:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Agreed, although the one concern is putting too much of a burden on the editor in question. - Don Sowell 17:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If the editor just puts the non-specific links, that's fine. Those of us who enjoy this stuff can always come through and fill out the more specific links. -- Jonel | Speak 22:46, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Olympic logo
Due to copyright constraints, the olympic logo has been removed. Please be advised. It should not be replaced without a good reason. (Unfortunately) tiZom(2¢)  23:09, 28 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I'd have to look into this deeper but I highly doubt we are not allowed to use this image the way we were. —Ruud 18:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Can I use the Olympic Rings?

The Olympic rings are the exclusive property of the International Olympic Committee (IOC) and cannot be used without the IOC's prior written consent.

You will find the rule about this subject in the Olympic Charter, Chapter 1, Rules 7-14, p. 17-25:

Open the document

First, a request form must be filled in, as precisely and with as many details as possible. Obligatory information includes:

1) Identify yourself Name, full address, telephone and/or fax number, e-mail address. Institution, organisation, company, museum or individual.

2) How will the Olympic Rings be used? Private use (no broadcasting), school work, group activities, exhibition, production/broadcasting.


 * So we would need permission first. —Ruud 19:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I was given the following note on my talk page:
 * Under the IOCs conditions, the Olympic Rings are not free enough for Wikipedia, as they restrict third-party use (worse, they restrict our use). ed g2s &bull; talk 00:13, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Please take any questions up with ed g2s, as I'm no expert on this subject. tiZom</b><sub style="color:black;">(2¢) 22:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Table alignment
Would anyone object to adding an argument so that the alignment of the table can be specified? For an example of why this is needed (IMO, anyway), please take a look at Jacque Jones. I'd like to float the table on the left. android 79  02:48, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Done . To float left, key in .  I didn't put this on the  template because it's really not appropriate - the reason it's being floated left is because of other content on the right.  Also, the coding gets weird, because the second argument is optional, and this would add a third argument.  Entirely do-able, but very much less user-friendly.  <b style="color:#08457E;">tiZom</b><sub style="color:black;">(2¢)  05:17, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, appparently, my method doesn't work. Although I'm not sure what is wrong with it, I've gone ahead and asked Ed g2s to help us get it right.  Also, it is worth mentioning here that Ed g2s changed the whole structure of this infobox to a standard infobox, but we have all agreed that it looks terrible that way.  I have therefore reverted it to the edit right before I added the alignment.  <b style="color:#08457E;">tiZom</b><sub style="color:black;">(2¢)  04:21, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Centered?
Is there a reason that medaltop and medalsport aren't centered? Hazelorb 22:17, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You mean the text in the templates? It is centered.  What browser are you using? <b style="color:#08457E;">tiZom</b><sub style="color:black;">(2¢)  07:51, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Internet Explorer Hazelorb 01:42, 17 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe this was because the header that uses exclamation points doesn't always work in all browsers. I went ahead and added an "align=center" argument...should work now.  Let me know if it doesn't.  We could slways make it style="align: center;"  <b style="color:#08457E;">tiZom</b><sub style="color:black;">(2¢)  03:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Awesome thanks Hazelorb 19:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Problem with Template:MedalGold and categorization
The sorting of Olympic medal categories is a mess. I am just fuming about this. Please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Sports Olympics. Gene Nygaard 11:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

PAGENAME on MedalTopPic
I think the PAGENAME as default is a really horrible idea. Most of the medalists pages have the medal record at the top of the page, and I see no reason why there needs to be an extra line there with the person's name on it when it's in really big, bold letters just to the left. Sue Anne 02:25, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * "Horrible", even. My goodness. I might've argued the case in some earlier thread here, but anyway: AFAIK, having the name of a person below a photo of her/him is a common practice in articles and other written pieces about the person in books, magazines, etc., even if the person's name is prominently mentioned in the heading. Why shouldn't that be the case in WP as well? Do you find it intrusive? --Wernher 03:12, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Default Picture Size on MedalTopPic
I had removed the default picture size, and someone added it back in. The reason why I removed it was due to the fact that the picture size was too big for some of the pictures. Many of the pictures on these medalists pages are "promotional" photos and can be of a lesser quality. Having the default at 200px and even at 150px is too high. If pictures are of a better quality that the size can be increased, people can do that manually. I think the default should be set at a size where the lowest common denominator looks good and everything else looks better. Sue Anne 02:28, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Are there really that many athlete photos of less than 150px horizontal resolution? IMHO, using as small a width as 100px makes the pictures almost "disappear" compared to the size of the medals table. Athlete's faces get so small they almost can't be distinguished... If there aren't very strong reasons the size couldn't be reset to 150px, I think we should rather use that default. I see your point that in principle we can always adjust the sizes of individual photos, but I just 'couldn't believe' that there's so many of extremely low resolution(?) --Wernher 03:22, 1 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There's been enough of them that I felt prompted to remove the default picture size, and both 200px and 150px didn't solve the problem. Especially as we become more vigilant in cleaning out things that have not had a valid source or have been inappropriately tagged as "fair use", there's going to be more of a reliance on "promotional" photos that may not be of the highest quality. Sue Anne 04:47, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

MedalTop vs. MedalTopPic
Which looks better? It's been bothering me for a long time that they don't look the same. I think the MedalTopPic looks great with the white between the medal background colors. See this and this. Any opinions? <b style="color:#08457E;">tiZom</b><sub style="color:black;">(2¢) 01:24, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Made changes to MedalTop to have the same look as MedalTopPic. --Pelladon 07:17, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Love it. Thanks.  <b style="color:#08457E;">tiZom</b><sub style="color:black;">(2¢)  20:19, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Competitor country
! colspan="4" | Competitor for Indonesia
 * - bgcolor="#dddddd" align=center

! colspan="4" | Competitor for the Netherlands
 * - bgcolor="#dddddd" align=center

I don't know if this has been discussed before, but what do people think about adding a line/template for the country of the competitor? Would people want to use country flags? I would like to hear what people think. Thanks, mattbr30 22:45, 8 May 2006 (UTC).
 * I'm ambivalent about putting the country name in the infobox. I'm worried that it would be another way to clutter the box. I'm opposed to adding the country flag. Sue Anne 23:26, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, there are occasions when people have switched nationality. Such as Mia Audina.  -- Jonel | Speak 01:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. I have added a couple of examples for illustration, with the first being for single nation competitors and having a flag, and the second for multi-nation competitors and without flags. I think it could be set up in the format where IOC would be the IOC country code, with 'the' being added as necessary. mattbr30 09:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I support this template completely (flag and all). I think that the nation for which an Olympian competes is extremely important, given the nature of the Olympics.  I think it's a great way of spicing up the pages without infringing on any copyrights, and I think it helps the user to identify and categorize the competitors.  <b style="color:#08457E;">tiZom</b><sub style="color:black;">(2¢)  16:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I also support something like this, as I just now came to this page looking for a way to clarify the team that Ivica Osim coached in 1984. Neier 14:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I have created a test version at User:Mattbr30/Sandbox, which is used in the example above with the flag. Please let me know your thoughts! mattbr30 13:26, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I created the template a couple weeks ago hand have used it on a couple of pages. Template:MedalCountry. --Sue Anne 18:39, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Hi Sue Anne, you mentioned above you oppose adding the flag of the country, but you have included it in the use of your template by using templates such as USA. My template uses the same templates, but includes 'the' when needed (as in 'for the United States') and gives the right flag at time of competition by adding the last year of medal winning in one of the template parameters. This should hopefully make it easier to add the information and make it more accurate. mattbr30 12:01, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

For those who don't have that page watched, I added a comment at Template talk:MedalCountry. -- Jao 20:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Joa's comment moved to this page from Template talk:MedalCountry (mattbr30 20:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)): 
 * User:Mattbr30/Sandbox seems a bit better than this template [the current MedalCountry]. Any chance it can replace it? I really like the idea, however it is implemented. I tried it out on a few of the sport shooter bios, and it can get a bit messy as in Jasna Šekarić (also, what do I enter for IOP and the FRY? Are there solutions to this in Mattbr30's template?), but then again, these cases are also where the information is most useful. -- Jao 19:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * As IOP (along with IOA, EUN etc) was used as a country code, their use is supported in my template. My template primarily uses the three letter code templates (such as USA, AUT etc), but where these don't exist or have another use (such as HOL), a different text is called. A different text can also be called if a country has changed its flag (such as Greece, whose 1976 flag is shown to the left), which is done by entering the year in the second parameter. The editor doesn't need to know the flag was different, as this is determined by the template, hopefully making, as I said above, the information more accurate. So for the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, YUG was used, and if any Olympic year between 1994 and 2002 is entered, the example shown is produced. mattbr30 20:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I think this might be useful for competitiors that have competed for mutliple countries but I believe it is redundant for those who have only competed for one country. In the latter case, such a template serves no purpose at all.  I would also recommend we dump the flag.  We have far too many flags in wikipedia and in my opinon they are a usulally a distraction. What purpose would the flag serve with respect to the medalcountry template? David D. (Talk) 20:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


 * As <b style="color:#08457E;">tiZom</b><sub style="color:black;">(2¢) said, I think adding the country of competition adds a useful piece of information to go along with the rest of the information in the table and helps readers mentally categorize the competitor, especially as countries play an important part of Olympic competition. Other sport infoboxes include this information and with the development of the table to include other competitions, I think it helps build on the summary of information. As regards to the flag, I think it helps readers identify the country (especially if they have a limited understanding of English) and helps break up the text and add a bit of colour, especially to a series of gray boxes! mattbr30 20:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I can see the advantage of a flag in a table where someone may wish to scan for medalists by country. The flag does serve a useful purpose in that case.  But do you really think that people will recognise a flag over the country name for most countries? Furthermore, these medal tables are on the biography pages where, invariably, the first line of each article is "so and so from country X". I agree there are too many grey boxes.  That's why i say we should only use it to represent something useful.  Having it in there becuase we can makes little sense to me.  As an aside, what is to become of the achievment tables in the biographies?  In most cases the information is completely redundant.  I would suggest the achievement table are either deleted or expanded to include performances too. David D. (Talk) 22:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, I've encountered many articles, where the country of a competitor is not mentioned at all. Although this may be because I work on such "unpopular" topics, as related to the USSR. I believe, that the flag and the country of a competitor in the template are very important, because quite a lot of them represented several (even three in many cases) countries through their career and because no one competes at the Olympics "on one's own" - an athlete always represents one's country - wear a specific uniform, anthems of countries are played during medal ceremonies, unofficial stats of medals by country are always calculated and so on. By the way, the IOC does not consider flags irrelevant: see, for example, this page Cmapm 20:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Right, i think that this is the exception where this template is useful. That does not mean it should be used in every case.  Most athletes only represent one country.  And if a bio does not state that country in the first paragraph then there is clearly room for improvement in that particular stub. Why is the flag important if the name of the country is present? David D. (Talk) 20:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Do you mean achievement tables like this one? Why are they redundant? Because only "medal performances" are mentioned? Then feel free to add "non-medal" performances if you have corresponding information. I believe, that such tables make articles much more informative and easy to look through. Cmapm 20:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You missed my point. If they give exactly the same information as the medal templates then they are redundant. In the example you give the medal template is not used so it is not redundant. If the medal table is used then the achievements table only makes sense if it offers additional information.  In most cases that is not true. David D. (Talk) 20:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree, in this case, duplicate info should be removed either from the table of achievements, or from the medal template. Then, I support this point too. Cmapm 21:53, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that there is no need to have an achievement table if it contains exactly the same information as the medal table, but I think that if they contain additional information, such as times/distances, notes or other achievements/placings, and provide a comprehensive competitive history then there is a place for both. mattbr30 14:23, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * That is what i was thinking when i mentioned additional information. Both is good if there is more information in the achievement table. David D. (Talk) 07:03, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Do we have any consensus on this issue? I noticed that User:SndrAndrss (see:User_talk:SndrAndrss) has started adding it to athletes medal tables. David D. (Talk) 19:25, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * And why shouldn't somebody do so? The template is not banned. If somebody thinks, that the template is not appropriate, then one should nominate it for deletion. Cmapm 20:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well i think it would be premature to nominate it for deletion before a discussion. Besides it would be useful in some cases where athletes have represented and won medals for multiple countries. Personally i don't think adding it to every bio, just because we can, is necessarily a good strategy. David D. (Talk) 20:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't plan to specially add this into 300 or so articles. I've added 10 or so of them so far. However, in any case, whether inclusion of this into the template will be accepted in the discussion or not, I'll do my best to add country inf. in some form either into the template or into the article, when I come to edit any article, that lacks it. This discussion will just give me a hint, where to include it. But once again, I think, that mentioning country in the template (with the flag or not, it's not too important for me) would be more convenient for the reader in all cases, not just where an athlete represent several countries. Cmapm 21:58, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the template is a good idea (flag and all), but my one objection is that on User:Mattbr30/Sandbox, Matt uses the full name of the country, which causes a line break for some country names in the table. This is a little over-kill and the full name is not needed. I think just putting "Laos" or "Libya" or even "United States" is sufficient in conveying the message that they competed for that country. It seems like a fair compromise, non? The table should be as simple as possible, as some people have already said.  →   &ensp; J ARED  &ensp;(t)&ensp; 22:12, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I was sticking to the IOC designations, but I shall change them to the short names. Thanks, mattbr30 15:32, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Olympic logo again
It was removed from this template two months ago due to the copyvio. But it is currently used in many other templates, including the one at the top of this Talk Page. Maybe it could be included back into the template? Cmapm 05:59, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It needs to be removed from the other templates, not added to one. Fair use images are not allowed in templates. Sue Anne 18:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

World record template
anyone else think this is a good idea? Yonatanh 02:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes - for sure - does it no exist already? Ozhiker 17:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Combined events
There may be something I don't know. But I would either like imput on how to do this, or propose that some method be created: There are several athletes who participate in multiple high-end events. For example, Shaun White (check out his current page). Currently, each group (Olymics and X-games) is in separate infoboxes - which looks cluttered, and they don't match well. I tried to integrate the boxes by plugging in (the top of the x-games infobox) as th value for. I had a measure of success. The finished product looked like the box to the right.

The only problem in that the top of the X-games section, there is no marker. Where the   is, there should be this. I could just type "X-Games" there, but I think that is inferior. No of anyway to make the x-game top template appear instead of the one (and without just typing X-games)?

PS - the caption under the picture says Medal Top becuase the template defaults to the article title. On the page it says Shaun White.--Esprit15d 15:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Forget it, is subst'd it then edited it to make it fit.--Esprit15d 15:17, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * You bring up a good point. This template is rather narrow in scope.  Perhaps we can expand it to allow different Games within the same table, or create different -style templates to make separate tables for some of these other games?  <b style="color:#08457E;">tiZom</b><sub style="color:black;">(2¢)  16:49, 20 July 2006 (UTC)