Template talk:MedalTop/Archive 3

Additions to the Medals Template structure
I have created a new template which allows listing of medals for various types of competitions other than the Olympics (eg, Commonwealth Games, World Championships, National Titles, Goodwill Games, Paralympic Games, etc). With it, tables like in the article for Jonathan Edwards can be created.

If there are no objections, I would like to also make a few invisible changes to the template pages, adding the following:
 * Default values for all Medal Year and Medal Event fields in the, , , &  templates.
 * Add non-template code around the actual templates, to make them show on the template articles as they will in the articles they are used in.
 * Add template specific descriptions and usage notes to each template article - the usage notes in this talk page are a bit out of date.
 * Make and  meta-templates which are just specific instances of the new  template.

Ozhiker 17:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Problems!
Alright, we have some serious problems with the usability of this template. The main issue is that this started out as a purely Olympic template, and in trying to include other games, the main template (Template:MedalTop) has changed meaning. I think we need to standardize things so that ALL the boxes start with the same top, regardless of which games they were in.

Here's what I suggest: This way, all of our templates will start with a generic "Medal Record" heading, and we can divide all the medals into games, including Olympics, EAA, etc. Does anyone see any reason why this would not work? tiZom(2¢) 22:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Replace all instances of MedalTop with MedalTableTop AND MedalOlympics.
 * Redirect MedalTop to MedalTableTop, and MedalTopPic to MedalTableTopPic
 * I'd support this. The current confusion problem is more problematic than the bother of changing everythng. In the long term this is the right thing to do. David D. (Talk) 03:42, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Definitely. This series has evolved so much that Olympics really isn't the centerpiece anymore, and this should be reflected somehow. └ Jared ┘┌ talk ┐&ensp; 03:46, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Good. Let's forget about the fact that currently the MedalTop template is transcluded on 7,286 pages! I think I might start the process soon... tiZom(2¢) 05:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This should be done with a bot. I think we should ask User:Cyde if he will program Cydebot to do this for the project. However, before this is started, I think we should wait until more people have agreed to this change.  We should give at least a week for those with objections to come forward, if not more than a week. David D. (Talk) 06:52, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, after doing 40-something of them, I think a bot would be better. Though I've run into some cases where the MedalOlympics template was already there, so it would have to filter out those ones. And you're right... it should wait for more approval. tiZom(2¢) 08:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually doing some manualy is important since the bot will need to be able to identifiy them. Doing some manually allows one to see if there are some ambiguous examples. David D. (Talk) 11:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I also think this would be a good idea, and I also think it would be an opportune time to replace the four (two with the above) headers into one template. An #if statement could be added so that an image is displayed if it is defined, but not if not. As MedalTop and MedalTableTop have no parameters with them (provided the ones in the message below are not defined), this shouldn't cause backwards compatibility if it is integrated into one of these. The following should work:

{| class="infobox" style="width: 23em; font-size: 90%;"
 * colspan="3" align="center" bgcolor="lightsteelblue"| Medal record

Any thoughts? mattbr 15:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes this is a great idea. Keeps it simple. David D. (Talk) 16:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Medal templates out of control
I've just discovered that there are many more medal templates than are listed on the template page - here's a list of what I've found so far
 * Template:MedalTop
 * Template:MedalSport
 * Template:MedalGold
 * Template:MedalSilver
 * Template:MedalBronze
 * Template:MedalBottom
 * Template:MedalDisqualified
 * Template:MedalTrueSpirit
 * Template:MedalTopPic
 * Template:MedalTableTop
 * Template:MedalOlympics
 * Template:MedalTableTopPic
 * Template:MedalTop-BJJ
 * Template:MedalTopPic-BJJ
 * Template:CommonwealthMedalTop
 * Template:MedalCountry
 * Template:MedalWorldChampionships
 * Template:MedalCompetition
 * Template:MedalEuropeanChampionships
 * Template:MedalXGames
 * Template:MedalGoodwillGames
 * Template:MedalCommonwealthGames
 * Template:MedalWorldCup
 * Template:MedalWorldIndoorChampionships
 * Template:MedalEuropeanCup
 * Template:MedalAsianChampionships
 * Template:MedalAsianGames
 * Template:MedalNationalGamesPRC
 * Template:MedalSkiflyingWorldChampionships
 * Template:MedalWorldHalfMarathonChampionships
 * Template:MedalWorldCrossCountryChampionships
 * Template:MedalParalympic
 * Template:MedalRelatedTemplates

I think these templates are out of control, so I've done a lot of cleaning up today to reduce the number of templates, by converting many articles to use the Template:MedalCompetition template.

We can now delete the following templates - I will nominate them for deletion:


 * Template:MedalTop-BJJ
 * Template:MedalTopPic-BJJ
 * Template:MedalXGames
 * Template:MedalGoodwillGames
 * Template:MedalWorldCup
 * Template:MedalWorldIndoorChampionships
 * Template:MedalEuropeanCup
 * Template:MedalAsianChampionships
 * Template:MedalAsianGames
 * Template:MedalNationalGamesPRC
 * Template:MedalSkiflyingWorldChampionships
 * Template:MedalWorldHalfMarathonChampionships
 * Template:MedalWorldCrossCountryChampionships

There is much more cleaning and consolidation that could be done, which I may do later. --Ozhiker 12:02, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Further Consolidation

 * Todo list of further consolidation needed:
 * (boxes on right show original template (top) and replacement template (below)

Replacement with MedalCompetition

 * Replace the following templates with Template:MedalCompetition, then delete redundant templates:


 * Template:MedalOlympic ->


 * Template:MedalOlympics ->


 * Template:MedalEuropeanChampionships ->


 * Template:MedalCommonwealthGames ->


 * Template:MedalParalympic ->


 * Template:MedalWorldChampionships ->


 * Template:CommonwealthMedalTop ->

Replacement with MedalTop

 * Search and replace all instances of
 * with
 * with


 * }


 * }
 * Search and replace all instances of
 * with
 * with


 * }


 * }
 * Delete Template:MedalTableTop

Replacement with MedalTopPic

 * Search and replace all instances of
 * with
 * with


 * }


 * }


 * Search and replace all instances of
 * with
 * Note Addition of "Medal Record" row - Is this OK?
 * Note Addition of "Medal Record" row - Is this OK?


 * }


 * }


 * --Ozhiker 14:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Have you read the section above ? I think this is a much better solution than the parameters for '... medalist'. I also think the optional colour parameter is wrong as this would result in tables with a rainbow of colours, and each one would be different and would remove the consistency that a single colour brings. Also, why has a 'no image avalable' image been added, as if there is no picture, the the no pic template is used, although I'm sure the templates could be modified to add an image if one is specified (I'll have to think about that). As for replacing the competition specific ones, I'm not sure there is any need. By having it set in a template rather than as a parameter, you again get consistency with linking, capital letters etc. The CommonwealthMedalTop template should probably be phased out in a similar way to the TableTop which mentions the Olympics. mattbr 14:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I really don't like this proposal. It's trying to do away with too much. That's too many parameters a user has to put in to make the template. The box-making templates should really require no parameters. Please don't go ahead with this, because obviously it is contested. └ Jared ┘┌ talk ┐&ensp; 15:20, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion
I think everything is just about perfect as it is, except as noted above, how this has become more than an Olympics template. What I suggest is just changing MedalTop so that it displays Medal Record and for all those pages that include MedalTop as the Olympics header, just include a MedalOlympics. As far as the MedalTopPic thing, as stated above just now, make the image an optional parameter in MedalTop. And that's it! No need to be rash about the whole thing. This just requires a few changes, is all. And yes, some of the templates should be deleted, naturally. └ Jared ┘┌ talk ┐&ensp; 15:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * And maybe MedalCountry and MedalSport can be combined to take up one row. It would, for example, use a template named MedalInfo and would require Sport and Nation parameters so that it would display like this: Athlete for 🇫🇷 France
 * Any other suggestions to make this as compact but good looking as possible, please write them down! └ Jared ┘┌ talk ┐&ensp; 15:36, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Sounds good in principle, but we have to watch out for multi-sport, multi-nation competitors, as we might end up duplicating information and causing more lines than before. As a side note re the country thing, my sandbox is (still, although the code has been greatly reduced!) contains a MedalCountry coding, which might be of use if you want to use it. mattbr 15:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok - sorry if I was a bit too bold - let me explain myself:
 * Replacing MedalTop with MedalTableTop + MedalOlympics is something we cannot properly do - because many pages have MedalCountry and MedalSport at the top of the table (eg Pichichi (footballer)), and it would look inconsistent with all the other pages using MedalTableTop which have the MedalOlympics template further down (eg Anne Jahren).
 * The colour inconsistency was already there - MedalTop was grey, MedalTableTop was blue - I agree it would be better to have one colour - which one should we choose? I put the parameter in to allow the combination of templates into one - if we can agree on a colour, then it could be removed.
 * It is often better to have parameters for the competition templates - People can put in things like national titles medals or medals for more obscure sports. Importantly, it also means that the box titles can be wikified, which is quite useful in the case of "World Championships", since there are dozens of different world sporting bodies. The parameter allows wiki-linking directly to the correct championship page.
 * --Ozhiker 15:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I definitely agree with some of your points. Like the 3rd for instance: I agree that having the MedalCompetition template is a good idea. I like that. As far as point 2, I'm not sure about a color right now. I do like the different shades of gray, though, but I'll have to think about it. And the first point, you may have gotten my suggestion wrong, because I worded it poorly. What I'm saying is that the Olympics medal record heading of MedalTop be replaced by a Medal Record heading. I see what you're saying about the problem with the locations of the different templates, but that could easily be circumvented using a bot/AWB. └ Jared ┘┌ talk ┐&ensp; 15:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we should use MedalTop as the main heading template, since its name is consistent with MedalBottom.
 * If we can have a bot/AWB insert MedalOlympics in the correct place below MedalSport & MedalCountry, that would be great, although it might be somewhat tricky, as there are some athletes who have competed in several sports or for two countries.
 * Another use of having the parameters could allow things like notable wines / films / horses etc to be recognised as having won medals.
 * I added the NoImage.jpeg as a place holder, so that the template looked more like the end result when you look at the template page, and also so that if someone doesn't specify an image, it will be very obvious what's happened.
 * --Ozhiker 16:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


 * 1) Any replacements can be done manually/manually assisted so the order can be consistent. Plus the opinion on the single use of MedalCountry is split (well, I assume it still is since the last discussion). Plus different orders are required in different situations, so there is going to be some inconsistency, and that's where the flexibility of these templates provides a great benefit.
 * 2) The optional parameter will just encourage people to use whatever colour they like and we could end up with anything. If one header template is used throughout, one colour could be chosen and the appearance would be consistent. I think the blue was chosen because there was no more grey left and I think it works well with the grey.
 * 3) MedalCompetition can still be used (as it has been for a while) in conjunction with MedalOlympics, although I didn't realise there were so many, so maybe we need to manage that better. I'm not sure we need to consider other things than sports people, we have enough to consider with people, and I'm sure that information is managed in another way appropriate to the topic.
 * If the image display is incorporated into a unified header template, the placeholder image wouldn't be needed as it would only display if defined. mattbr 21:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * From my perspective the horse has already bolted on the medal country template. I see the template is now ubiquitous. My objections had always been based on the redundancy issue as well as the overproliferation of the flags on every sports related table and template.  Do the flags really help, or is it done because we can? David D. (Talk) 22:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Mine and others thoughts on the MedalCountry template are above, but if it was decided to remove it, then now would be an opportune time. mattbr 09:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm also for the MedalCountry template (love Jared's idea of combining them, by the way), but that's just one of the issues here. It seems like we need to determine (A) which templates we are going to use, (B) the order of these templates, and (C) what each template will look like (colors, wikilinks, etc.).  Gosh, what we really need is a boardroom or something to hash this all out!  How should we work this?  Think a sub-page would help?  Or should we fork out this conversation on the talk page?


 * Regarding the edits, I think manually/AWB-style edits would be ideal, rather than a bot. There's only a few thousand, and we've got plenty of people eager to get this going.  Besides, it seems like there's a big potential for errors, so I would rather have human eyes look over these changes... tiZom(2¢)  05:20, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistencies in wikilink usage should be resolved
While we're talking about making some major overhauls to these templates, there are some other improvements I would like to see. I'll use Olympic results as examples, but the concepts could be extended to other championships or multi-sport events. As usual in situations like this, there is an opportunity to use the templates to ensure these things are consistent. If not (because we want to keep these generic), we should still have some sort of "style guide" that we have consensus for and is clearly written on the template documentation page. Andrwsc 16:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) What should the link be for MedalSport? Sometimes we link to Athletics (track and field) and sometimes we link to Athletics at the Summer Olympics (using a piped link to display simply "Athletics" each time).  This should be consistent.
 * 2) What should the link and format be for the middle table cell of MedalGold et. al.? Sometimes we link to 2004 Summer Olympics and sometimes we link to Athletics at the 2004 Summer Olympics.  Sometimes the display text is "2004 Athens" (preferred) and sometimes the display text is "Athens 2004".  Both of these should be consistent.
 * 3) Similarly, the rightmost table cell for these rows sometimes links directly to the event page (e.g. Athletics at the 2004 Summer Olympics - Men's 100 metres) if they exist, sometimes they link to the sport page (e.g. Athletics at the 2004 Summer Olympics, and sometimes (most?) they link to nothing. Again, consistency is needed!


 * My thoughts:
 * As this table has moved away from the Olympics, this should probably be non-Olympic link.
 * I also prefer '2004 Athens', with a link to the general games page.
 * Link to the event page, or the sport page if that doesn't exist.
 * I think the links should take people where the visible part of the link indicates, as that is where they expect to be taken, so we should take them there. With the new doc template, this could act as the style guide for the whole family of templates. mattbr 21:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Possible universal solution for TableTop et al.
I think I've found a solution, which would let us merge MedalTop, MedalTableTop, MedalTopPic, and MedalTableTopPic, without causing style problems or changing the look of anything, whilst allowing us to do the conversion of all the pages a our own pace.

It involves adding a yes/no option to MedalTop.


 * 1)  or  results in the existing MedalTop template
 * 2)  results in the existing MedalTableTop template
 * 3)  or  results in the existing MedalTopPic template
 * 4)  results in the existing MedalTableTopPic template

This would allow us to convert all the pages to use MedalOlympic at our own pace, since we wouldn't be changing the look/feel or usability of any. Eventually when all are converted, we disable the part of MedalTop that allows the old Olympic header, then run a bot to remove all the non_olympic=yes parameters, which would have been rendered useless.

The code would look something like:

What does everyone think? --Ozhiker 10:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I think it would be simpler to add the optional image parameters to MedalTableTop and convert MedalTop and MedalTopPic to those while adding/standardizing the other templates mentioned above. Then just redirect MedalTop to MedalTableTop when all the conversions are done. Or we could just create a new template, MedalHeader? mattbr 10:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Plus it would be much easier using my suggestion to track conversions as we would know when they are done because there will be no uses of MedalTop. mattbr 10:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It looks like everyone wants to do it that way - I'll go ahead with combining MedalTableTopPic into MedalTableTop and converting the articles that use MedalTopPic to use the MedalOlympics header. --Ozhiker 11:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we should decide on some of the other things above and produce a 'style guide' before we start converting so they can all be done at the same time and look consistent. mattbr 11:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree with matt here. David D. (Talk) 13:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree too, since I've just discovered that the MedalTopPic template has often used just so people get the "Olympic medallist" heading, and lists non-Olympic medals as well. --Ozhiker 15:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Is there a reason why you want the parameter to be "non_olympic"? The double negative of "non-olympic=no" just seems goofy to me.  Better to use "Olympic=yes" or "Olympic=no" if you go down that path.  Andrwsc 16:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)