Template talk:MedalTop/Archive 4

Moving forward
It has been more than a couple of months since the discussion above, has anyone had any further thoughts?

From re-reading the above, this is my take on what we need to discuss (thanks to Tom for the three groups), and I think we should tackle them in this order: Hopefully then we can produce a style guide, and as there are currently 12,227 (!) tranclusions of the four header templates, we really need to agree on the above and the style guide before we start any conversions! Might it be a good idea to spit the above into subheadings to discuss each area (I got a bit dizzy re-reading the above!)? mattbr 10:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Which templates are we going to use?
 * 2) Table heading — Standardise into a single template with optional image parameter (probably MedalTableTop for logistics)? — Unless I am mistaken, I think we agree on this already
 * 3) Competition participated — stick with MedalOlympics or collapse into MedalCompetition?
 * 4) Country of competitor — include yes or no, and do we combine with other info eg sport?
 * 5) What is the order of these templates?
 * 6) We need to take into consideration multi-sport, multi-nation competitors and possible different orders for different situations, but we need to decide 1. first
 * 7) What each template will look like (colors, wikilinks, etc.)?
 * 8) Which we can decide once we know which templates we are going to use and in what order(s)
 * Making subheadings sounds like a good idea, so we can discuss. And I'll also suggest while I'm here that, yes, this is on 12,227 pages. I think to reduce the efforts we have to make to implement our new suggestions, we should also greatly factor in the possibility of keeping our existing foundations (e.g. template names) in tact, but just changing the code within them. Once you make subsections, I'll start writing in them! Otherwise, I'll be thinking. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 13:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I can't wait that long or I'll forget what I'm thinking. So he's my thoughts. While this used to be solely for Olympic medals, the use of these templates has expanded to a wide variety of competitions. Even then, though the main structure of the templates must remain the same for everything. So what I suggest is that the sequence opens up with MedalTop, except that that template would show the contents of MedalTableTop. (In other words, all medal tables, regardless of what they contain medals for, would open with "Medal record". That template would have the optional image parameter and a set size for the image, so that they all are similar if a picture is so chosen. Next would come my suggestion for a MedalInfo template, which would somehow combine MedalCountry and MedalSport into one, eliminating one line. Next would be the Competition bars. I would definitely keep using the major ones, like MedalOlympics, but also fix up MedalCompetition so that for parameter 1, one could put in Olympics, Olympic, Olympic Games, Oly, etc, and still have the bar titled Olympic Games; and the same for the other competitions. And maybe somehow we can fix up the gold/silver/bronze templates, but I'm not there yet! So think this over. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 13:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Would you mind splitting your suggestions into these... mattbr 15:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Table heading
I think we agree that we want one header template with optional image parameters (as currently stands with MedalTableTop). For logistics, this would easiest be done by migrating to MedalTableTop and then redirecting the others to it once the conversions are complete. An alternative would be to create a new template (MedalHeader?), but we would have to migrate everything to that. Another alternative would be to include sport and country parameters in this so they were all in the one template (format to be discussed below). mattbr 15:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, so as said above, I think that MedalTableTop (or at least the contents of which) should be the opening template for the series. I think that MedalTop has long been the foundations of this series, and would therefore suggest that insteat, this be our top template. It also would follow suit with other sequential templates. As well, this is the only template in this series that would have "Table" in the name, so I say scrap the name in favor of MedalTop, including of course the optional picture parameter, a set image size, and no option for a caption (because it's just meant to be a medal box, not an all-around infobox).


 * As far as the sport and country parameters, I have created a new template which would do this: MedalInfo. This includes two parameters, the first of which being the nature of the competitor (athlete, swimmer, etc.) and the second being his country. This reduces the former use of 2 lines to one. This should be sufficient, and should probably not be included in the Table heading. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 17:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * The problem with keeping MedalTop (as in it is the template with the code) is that it is currently in use with something we don't want. We can either get a bot to change it to MedalTableTop and MedalOlympics and then convert them back again with the other changes, or change the template to the new form and go without the Olympic information in the table until we get round to fixing it. Another would be introducing a parameter via bot (olympics=yes) but this could confuse people who haven't read what is going on and I don't want to do that.
 * With the image caption, I think there should be option for this so that a short caption can be included to provide picture information. If nothing is provided, nothing should show. mattbr 18:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Competition rows
I would suggest keeping the current arrangement, with the modification to MedalCompetition mentioned by Jared to standardise the appearance of common competitions. Also, do we link or not link to the competition? mattbr 15:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As I said above, I would suggest that we "fix up MedalCompetition so that for parameter 1, one could put in Olympics, Olympic, Olympic Games, Oly, etc, and still have the bar titled Olympic Games." This could be easily achieved by using a switch. I would say keep the links because they don't hurt, and in case someone doesn't know what the Goodwill Games are (I still don't), they can quickly link to them. As far as keeping templates such as MedalOlympics or MedalCommonwealthGames to do the same purpose as the MedalCompetition template, I don't have an opinion either way. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 17:29, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Sport and country
If we want to include the country of competition (which I support), I think we should automate the inclusion of 'the' for countries as people forget this, and utilise the flag/country_data series of templates (depending on if we want a flag). Jared's suggestion to combine this sounds link a good idea, but we need to be aware of multi-nation and multi-sport competitors. This could be included in a new header template to reduce mixed ordering at the start. mattbr 15:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * If we use MedalInfo, we should have no problem. If the person competes for two different nations, then we just use the template twice. For example, if he or she competed at the Olympics in 1996 as a competitor for Canada and then in 2000 as an American, then instead of MedalInfo appearing at the top, it would appear twice under the Olympics section right before each section of medals corresponding to the two years. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 17:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think combining the information is a good idea, but I think it needs expressing differently. Athlete can relate to a participant in track and field athletics and to a sports person in general, which could cause confusion. Also, not all of the sports have a clear describer for someone who participates in the sport (Skeleton?) and some can become -ers or players (or at least I don't know which to use). To use the sport, a prefix will be needed ('Competitor in ...', 'Perticipant in ...') and this is then unlikely to fit on one line, so I'm not sure what to do here. There is also currently no way to add 'the' for countries, although this should be easy to fix if we stick to ISO codes and use the relevant templates. mattbr 19:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Competitions displayed
Another issue we need to figure out is what this table should display. Are we only trying to show literal medal-winning competitions, or do we include "cups" who have a clear cut winner, yet call 2nd and 3rd place "Silver" and "Bronze"? And what about those that rank competitors, but only award one winner? There is a humongous list at List of world cups and world championships. Should we include all of these as possibilities in MedalCompetition as I have been doing, or should we only select ones that are clear-cut, medal-awarding competitions? └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 16:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Put another way, are pages that look like Jonathan Edwards (athlete) acceptable, or is there a line that needs to be drawn? └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 16:54, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Order(s)
We can decide once we know what we are using. mattbr 15:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Appearance
We can decide once we know what we are using and what order(s) we recommend. mattbr 15:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Winners' medals
I thought I'd mention something which relates to the discussion above, under Competitions displayed. Some events just have a winner rather than awarding Gold, Silver and Bronze, so it would be useful to have a MedalWinner to go along with MedalGold etc.

I am thinking particularly of the events at Henley Royal Regatta. It would be good to be able to show wins at Henley in the medal table in articles such as Jack Beresford. Particularly in the early 20th century, oarsmen would have put more value on their Henley winners medals than Olympic medals.

I think what would be wanted is a template which showed the win, the year and the event. For example: Winner 1920 Diamond Challenge Sculls.

I don't have the wikipedia skills to create the template and also didn't want to cut across the coordinated effort which has clearly been going on.

James of Putney 19:42, 6 September 2007 (UTC)