Template talk:Milwaukee Streetcar

The segment under the Couture ought to be shown as a tunnel, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maximilian77 (talk • contribs) 01:34, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Amtrak/Milwaukee Intermodal Station
Fixed map to include Amtrak line. Please don't mess with this again. Maximilian77 (talk) 01:41, 1 November 2018‎ (UTC)
 * Streetcars don't enter the terminal nor do they share the railway right-of-way, so a simple ‘INT’ symbol IS appropriate here. Useddenim (talk) 03:35, 1 November 2018‎ (UTC)
 * ‎The stop is essentially at the terminal of the intermodal station. It's disingenuous to describe it any other way, especially when you have similar streetcar systems like in Detroit that have this INT designation, as well. Also, there are city plans to fully extend the MKE intermodal terminal over St. Paul Ave. via a glass roof. Maximilian77 (talk) 05:36, 1 November 2018‎ (UTC)


 * Odd that you claim that I'm being disingenuous then say that Detroit is the same as this. A quick glance at QLine shows: 1) the template doesn't use the symbol; and 2) the routes actually cross each other. Please see  for proper use of the symbols. Furthermore, your claim that the MIT is going to be extended over the tracks is completely unsourced, both at The Hop (streetcar) and Milwaukee Intermodal Station. I suggest you take a look at WP:FUTURE. And, I noticed that your talk page is full of warnings about your editing behavior, so I'm also going to caution you about WP:OWNERSHIP with regard to this template. Useddenim (talk) 20:17, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Hey, you seem a bit defensive about this. I'm sorry if my tone came off in the wrong way, and I didn't mean to be confrontational, I just undid your edit because I assumed you were an overzealous deletionist like there are way too many of on Wikipedia.
 * See: WP:Why is Wikipedia losing contributors - Thinking about remedies
 * Anyway, I'd like to tackle the issue in a reasonable way with you regarding this template. I agree that the INT may not be the most accurate tagging of the Intermodal Station, however there needs to be a similar connection hub graphically represented between the Intermodal Station streetcar stop and the Amtrak lines. I'm not exceptionally skilled at all the routemap tags, but while I agree the INT symbol may not be correct, how about just having it as a HUB that is connected to the intermodal the way the Amtrak station in Detroit is?


 * If it can be in the similar style as the
 * uHST!~HUB3 connections of the Q-line without using the INT tag, I think it would be appropriate.


 * Also, let me add some references backing up what I mentioned in my edit brief from yesterday. The city's downtown master plan specifically calls for a station gateway plaza that essentially connects the intermodal station to the space across the street where the streetcar stop is:


 * https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2010/07/02/city-announces-new-downtown-plan/
 * https://urbanmilwaukee.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/station-gateway-plaza4.jpg
 * https://urbanmilwaukee.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/station-gateway-plaza3.jpg
 * https://city.milwaukee.gov/ImageLibrary/Groups/cityDCD/planning/plans/downtown1/images/4-DowntownPlanCh4_10-12-101.pdf


 * Thanks.


 * Maximilian77 (talk) 21:42, 1 November 2018‎ (UTC)


 * “Overzealous deletionist”? On the contrary; I'm a proponent of not discarding information and the basis that it might be needed/useful to someone someday. Having said that, I’m also constantly fighting with a few editors who seem to want to shove everything into route diagrams – even stuff that properly belongs in stations articles or on Wikitravel pages. (That’s why opening and closing dates aren’t listed, unless they don’t appear anywhere else.)
 * In general, other modes in the vicinity of a station/stop are represented by and an icon for the service (,, , , etc.) unless they cross or share the same right-of-way. A streetcar stop in front of a station doesn’t meet those criteria.
 * I took a look at the links you provided. It's an 8½-year-old plan that doesn’t seem to have really gone anywhere. Yes, those third- and fourth-storey half-roofs look good, but they hardly create an enclosed structure, and in any case the streetcar tracks don’t extend under them.
 * So, I’m sorry, but you haven’t convinced me that the Amtrak service should be shown as anything other than.
 * Useddenim (talk) 00:08, 3 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I don't think you're an overzealous deletionist, I just assumed you might have been one at first, because they seem to be rampant on Wikipedia. Anyway, I see where you're coming from and understand that you want to maintain the integrity of route diagrams here and I respect that. I do wonder where the logic is, though, that a streetcar merely crossing the tracks makes it somehow tied to the rail station. The Q-Line is an excellent example. The streetcar stop there is essentially the same as the Intermodal Station stop in Milwaukee. It is also just a "streetcar stop in front of a station", as you said about the Milwaukee one. Yet it graphically is now represented as connected to the Amtrak station, even though it is not. I get that there are standards, but from a visual-information perspective, if you're going to show the Detroit Amtrak station linked to its streetcar stop, it makes sense to do the same for the Milwaukee intermodal station and its HOP stop.
 * Is there any way the stations could be better linked graphically than they are currently? Could it just look like the Detroit stations? Could the red Amtrak rail line at least be added back to show this continuity? Also, why can't there be a logo? in between? Or why not the "BAHN" logo? The BAHN logo is more universal, from my understanding.


 * Oh, and regarding the links I showed you. We are Milwaukee. It takes us ages to get anything done here. See The Couture about that. We have been planning to build "some" sort of fixed rail system since 1991 and the federal grant that was used for the HOP goes back that far. I wish I was kidding. We are stubborn slow Germans here. Anyway, those plans I sent you are part of a downtown master plan that was updated more recently and the city is making its way toward bringing at least some of it to fruition. Here's info on that if you're interested:
 * https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2018/05/21/eyes-on-milwaukee-city-state-selling-site-near-train-station/


 * If the streetcar tracks crossing the Amtrak tracks (actually they are Canadian Pacific tracks, but Amtrak uses them) is required for the connection between the Intermodal Station and the streetcar stop, let me just provide a little added information which might help. The city of Milwaukee is currently planning extensions including one up 4th St (now called Vel Phillips Ave) to the new Bucks arena, as well as another extension to the south in Walker's Point. This latter extension would run down 1st and 2nd Streets and most certainly would cross at-grade those very same CPRS tracks that Amtrak uses for its Hiawatha and Empire Builder trains that come into the Intermodal Station. With the tracks crossing each other, wouldn't this then meet your criteria for the Intermodal Station stop? Here's some links to the Walker's Point extension of the HOP streetcar:


 * https://thehopmke.com/expanding-the-hop/
 * https://urbanmilwaukee.com/2018/05/23/eyes-on-milwaukee-renderings-for-streetcar-extensions/
 * http://www.movingmkeforward.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Final-Walkers-Point-Neighborhood-Plan.pdf


 * Maximilian77 (talk) 22:19, 2 November 2018‎ (UTC)