Template talk:Monarchs of Jin (Chinese state)

Main branch or Yi branch?
To 星光下的人: the branch you insist on calling the Yi branch is the main, legitimate branch of Jin. Here are the reasons:


 * Their rulers are always called Marquis XX of Jin, and never Marquis XX of Yi. Marquis Zhao of Jin was the son and undisputed heir of Marquis Wen of Jin.
 * The Quwo branch is a cadet branch. Its founder Huan Shu of Quwo was a younger brother of Marquis Wen of Jin.  Its rulers are not marquesses and have no nobility rank, and they are always called XX of Quwo, not XX of Jin.
 * When Zhuang Bo of Quwo attacked the main branch, King Huan of Zhou sent Duke of Guo to attack Quwo and help Jin (the main branch).
 * When Duke Wu of Quwo killed Marquis Xiaozi of Jin, King Huan of Zhou again attacked Quwo to help the main branch, installing Min on the Jin throne.
 * Only when Duke Wu of Quwo finally killed Min and bribed King Xi of Zhou, did King Xi recognize Duke Wu as the legitimate ruler of Jin, starting the reunited period.

--Zanhe (talk) 19:07, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
 * All are your original research,and useless.

This incident is called 曲沃代翼 instead of 曲沃代晋. In China ,there are none cadet branch or main branch,there are only 大宗 and 小宗 ,the line of Quwo is 小宗,but after 曲沃代翼,the line became 大宗,understand?——星光下的人 (talk) 03:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * 《左传·隐公五年》：曲沃庄伯以郑人、邢人伐翼，王使尹氏、武氏助之. 翼侯奔随.
 * 《左传·桓公三年》：逐翼侯于汾隰，骖絓而止，夜获之，及栾共叔.
 * 《左传·桓公八年》：八年，春，灭翼.


 * All the reasons I listed above are established facts, not original research. Do you realize that cadet branch is the English term for 小宗?  I agree with you that after 曲沃代翼 Quwo becomes the main branch (大宗), but the key word here is after.  During the divided period, which was before 曲沃代翼, Yi was indisputably the main branch.  The problem with using Yi instead of main branch in the navbox is that few readers will understand what it means.  --Zanhe (talk) 06:16, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * "Do you realize that cadet branch is the English term for 小宗?"This is undoubtedly original research.For example,the 大宗 of House of Ji is the line of Kings of Zhou ,but main branch (it maybe called 长支) is the line of rulers of Wu state,because the line of Wu is descendant of Zhongyong ,the second son of King Tai of Zhou,and the line of Kings is descendant of Jili,the youngest son of King Tai of Zhou.——星光下的人 (talk) 06:33, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

First you call established facts original research, then call dictionary translation original research. I hope you can be convinced by the original quotes from classical texts:

From Zuo Zhuan, Duke Huan:
 * 2nd year: 晉始亂, 故封桓叔于曲沃... 晉人立孝侯. Trans: Jin begins to be in confusion, appoints Huan Shu at Quwo... People of Jin enthrones Marquis Xiao.
 * 7th year: 曲沃伯誘晉小子侯，殺之. Trans: Ruler of Quwo inveigles Marquis Xiaozi of Jin, and kills him.
 * 8th year: 王命虢仲立晉哀侯之弟緡于晉. Trans: King of Zhou orders Guo Zhong to install Min, younger brother of Marquis Ai of Jin, on the Jin throne.

From Shiji, House of Jin:
 * 昭侯元年，封文侯弟成师于曲沃. Trans: In the first year of Marquis Zhao, he appoints Chengshi, younger brother of Marquis Wen, at Quwo.
 * 曲沃邑大於翼. 翼，晋君都邑也. Trans: The city of Quwo is bigger than Yi. Yi is the capital of the Jin rulers.
 * 孝侯十五年，曲沃庄伯弑其君晋孝侯于翼. Trans: In the fifteenth year of Marquis Xiao, Zhuang Bo of Quwo kills his lord, Marquis Xiao of Jin, at Yi.

Shiji explicitly says that Yi is the capital of Jin and Marquis Xiao is the lord of Zhuang Bo of Quwo. So what you call the Yi Branch is clearly the main, legitimate branch of Jin. --Zanhe (talk) 04:32, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * You still haven't answered my query about 大宗 and 小宗.And what you say is still useless,does Shiji used word of "main Branch ?Your understanding is clear of original research.From Marquis Zhao to Min you can call it Marquis Jin (晋侯）or Marquis Yi（翼侯） ,but you can't call it main branch.The counterexample is the line of Wu 'rulers and King of Zhou.——星光下的人 (talk) 06:31, 24 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Look, I really don't want to waste any more time arguing this trivial matter. My main objection to "Yi" is not that it's wrong, but that it's esoteric.  This is a navbox, and its purpose is to help readers navigate.  When you use an obscure term 翼, especially when rendered in pinyin Yi, which can correspond to dozens of Chinese characters, it confuses people rather than helps them.  And in a navbox, there's no room to explain.  I don't have to use the term main branch, just something that's obvious to the reader.  Now you say Jin is acceptable to you, let's just call it Jin.  --Zanhe (talk) 06:49, 24 April 2012 (UTC)