Template talk:Mothers of the Ottoman Sultans

You did not get the point
Each "MOTHER" has different titles, their tittles may Not be important for you, but they are different; and their names carries special meaning in Persian or Arabic; also English people cannot pronounce them properly, unless they are written properly for English speakers!!! 193.255.108.20 (talk) 13:10, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


 * You should always put things you write on talk pages at the end of the page: if you look at this talk-page, you may see that the oldest text are on top, and the newest at the end of the page. This very same discussion you have answered here are adressed at the end of the page, so please always write at the end of the page on talk-pages. I will explain this matter about the template to you. The titles you have now put bakc on the template, are very important, just as you say, and you are completely right about that. These titles are important and it is important that they are placed in each of the articles. However, templates are made as a tool to make articles easily accessible. If you write the complete title in a template, then the names becames so long that it is hard to read them in the form of a template. This is unpractical, as the reason for having a temlate is to make articles who are linked to each other easier to find and follow. It is not necessary to write the complete title in templates, as long as the complete titles are in the articles. I will therefore restore the template to the shorter version, as the shorter version is easier to read and more practical, which answers to the purpose of templates. As I said, however, you are completely correct when you say that these titles are important, so I trust you will make sure that these titles are correctly placed in the articles themselwes. --Aciram (talk) 13:39, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Hürrem (Khûrrām or Kārimā) Haseki Sultâna (Daulatlu Ismatlu Haseki Sultâna) is her Imperial name, Roxelana is the nickname and Wikipedia page name193.255.108.20 (talk) 15:14, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

A template should also be made about the Valide Sultans. It it not the same thing, but it can be in danger of being confused, which would destroy the succession-order. --Aciram (talk) 23:38, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Years
This template is somewhat cluttered. The names are hard to separate. There should be years inserted to make it easier to use. That is usual for templates. Perhaps, for example, the living years. In the case when they are unknown, the century can be used.--Aciram (talk) 00:01, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The template was almost unreadable because of too many titles and numbers (Devletlü, İsmetli, Valide, Haseki, Kadın efendi etc, etc.) I cleared them and made the template shorter and more readable without reducing the content. I used the names given in the links (sometimes with the title Sultan only). Still, I don't want the past contributions lost forever. So below I paste the names in the older version.

Halîme Khātûn · Malhun (Māl) Khātûn · Nilüfer Khātûn (14th-century) · Gül-Çiçek Khātûn (14th-century) · Devlet Khātûn (-1411) ·Emîne (Amînā) Khātûn (-1449) · Hümâ Khātûn (15th-century) · Sitt-î Mükrîme (Mûkrîmā) Khātûn (1435-1467) · Gül-Bahār Khātûn (-1510) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Ayşe Hafsa (A’ishā Hafîzā Khātûn) Validā Sultâna (1479-1534) · Hürrem (Khûrrām or Kārimā) Haseki Sultâna (Daulatlu Ismatlu Haseki Sultâna) (-1558) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Afife Nûr-Banû Validā Sultâna (1525-1583) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Safiye Validā Sultâna (1550-1603) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Handan Validā Sultâna (1574-1605) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Mâh-Firûze Hadice (Khadija) Validā Sultâna (1590-1625)· Daulatlu Ismatlu Meh-Peyker (Māh-Peyker) Kösem Validā Sultâna (1589-1651)· Daulatlu Ismatlu Turhan Hadice (Tarhan Khadija) Validā Sultâna (1628-1683) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Sâliha Dil-Âşûb (Dil-Âshûb) Validā Sultâna (1627-1689) · Hatice (Khadija) Mu’azzez İkinci Haseki Sultân (Daulatlu Ismatlu Second Haseki Sultâna) (1629-1687)· Daulatlu Ismatlu Meh-Pâre Emetullah (Māh-Pârā Ummatullah) Râbi’a Gül-Nûş (Gül-Nûsh) Validā Sultâna (1642-1715) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Sâliha Sebkat-î (Sabkatî) Validā Sultâna (1680-1739) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Şâh-Süvar (Shah-Sûvar) Validā Sultâna (1682-1756) · Emîne Mihr-î-Şâh (Amînā Mehr-î-Shah) İkinci Kadın Efendi (Daulatlu Ismatlu Second Kadın Effendi) (-1732) · Râbi’a Şerm-î (Shārmî) Kadın Efendi (Daulatlu Ismatlu Kadın Effendi) (1698-1732) · Nükhet-Sedâ Baş İkbal Hânım Efendi (Daulatlu Bash Iqbal Khānûm Effendi) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Mihr-î-Şâh (Mehr-î-Shah) Validā Sultâna (1745-1805) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Bezm-î-Âlem (Bāzim-î-Âlām) Validā Sultâna (1807-1853)·   Daulatlu Ismatlu Pertevniyal (Pertāv-Nihâl) Validā Sultâna (1812-1882) · Daulatlu Ismatlu Şevk-Efzâ (Shāvk-Efzâ) Validā Sultâna (1820-1889) · Tîr-î-Müjgan Üçüncü Kadın Efendi (Daulatlu Ismatlu Third Kadın Effendi) (1819-1853) · Gül-Cemâl Dördüncü Kadın Efendi (Daulatlu Ismatlu Fourth Kadın Effendi) (1826-) · Gülistü (Gülistan Münîre) Dördüncü Kadın Efendi (Daulatlu Ismatlu Fourth Kadın Effendi) (1831-1861)

Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:59, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
 * On Jan.24 I had cleared the excessive titles in the template and posted the above comment. But on Feb.4 the titles were reinstalled.
 * I appreciate all efforts to improve the articles. But the excessive titles make the template almost unreadable Take the example Hürrem.
 * In the template this name appears as Hürrem (Khûrrām or Kārimā) Haseki Sultâna (Daulatlu Ismatlu Haseki Sultâna) This 10 word
 * name has 6 titles. On the other hand the linked article consists of only one name. (Roxalena)
 * What is the use of so many extra names and titles in the template ?
 * I'll try to reach the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 09:28, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I have restored the changes you made.
 * The template was changed back to the way it was before you and I made significant changes to improve the use of the template.
 * I inserted years to separate the names, and you tightened the titles to make it possible to read the names.
 * It is impossible to use the template with so much unreadable text.
 * The revert was made ignoring this discussion, and it is acceptable to simply restore the changes.
 * Furthermore, it is beyond doubt that the template fullfills its purpose better this way. Do not hesitate to restore if this hapens again.--Aciram (talk) 00:21, 10 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Such Templates are tools for organized links. The names shouls be as simple as possible . What is the use of say,
 * Daulatlu Ismatlu Meh-Pâre Emetullah (Māh-Pârā Ummatullah) Râbi’a Gül-Nûş (Gül-Nûsh) Validā Sultâna
 * Most of these titles (Daulatlu, Ismatlu, Haseki, Valide, Kadın Efendi etc.) are standart titles and they are of no use in
 * linking the article . Except for Hatun and Sultan I cleared out all unnecessary titles. But the titles are stored above
 * and in the history of the template . If the contributor wishes to list the titles he/she can create a new article.
 * (I also noticed that the some names had been written in a peculiar spelling like Khatun. I corrected them)
 * Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 07:58, 18 February 2011 (UTC).

What is the point of this template?
It lists women who did not live to see their sons ascend the throne, such as Hurrem. It would be sensible if it listed women who held the title of valide sultan, but it's presently a compilation of randomly chosen persons. Surtsicna (talk) 21:16, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
 * This template lists the mothers of the sultans. Almost all mothers have articles in WP and the template groups the related links Please see WP: navigation template. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:14, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I understand what it lists. I don't understand why it lists who it lists. These women did not all enjoy the same position, the same honours or the same privileges and powers as mothers of sultans. Some did not enjoy any of that because they were never actually "mother of the sultan". Should we have a Template:Mothers of the Presidents of the United States, Template:Aunts of the Kings of France, Template:Best friends of the Kings of England, etc? The template would make sense if it were restricted to women who served as valide sultans. Surtsicna (talk) 10:11, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * If the mothers of all US presidents have a page in WP, then it would be a good idea to create a template to group them. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:47, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * "Almost all" do, but I nevertheless thoroughly disagree. If we can't agree to remove women who were never "mother of the sultan", such as Hurrem, and restrict it to those who held an actual status as valide sultan, the only remaining option is to nominate it for deletion. At present, the template includes women who had nearly nothing in common. Surtsicna (talk) 12:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
 * You are right in this statement that it also lists all Valide sultans, I think except Ayse Sina and Rahime Perestu who were not mothers. The meaning of Valide is identical to mother in Persian language, but these two valide is not listed here. Perhaps you should prepare a new one for all valides, but some of the mothers will not be listed there if you use the word valide again..I'll just read your discussion here and its very confusing with this format since the word valide actually implies mother in Persian. In any case better to tell the difference to the reader as in tr:Valide sultanlar listesi

128.164.157.130 (talk) 22:31, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

The point of the template
The template became meaningless when you have erased the names of the Valide Sultans from a previously prepared version of the template. There, it was clear who was a mother, who was a valide sultan. some moters are not valide sultans, some valide sultans are not the mothers..By erasing these distinct definitions the template became ridiculous and you erased their real titles as well. Erasing every useful information from the template eventually created an absurd one which provided no useful knowledge in it. And as a result, you have now discovered its absurdity and gave the decision to remove it completely. I think the next step should be to remove all the mothers of sultans with these absurd biographies and silly nick names which you had never provided a real evidence to support these assertions on those silly nick-names other than giving some books written by history-fiction authors and created long disputes with some readers on their original ethnic identities like: if they were greeks, albanians, serbians, georgians, and bulgarians which again you had never been able to provide any kind of supporting real evidence other than the books of theses history-fiction writers..
 * I stand at this point...

68.100.172.139 (talk) 23:16, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, who are you talking to? Surtsicna (talk) 23:30, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, I have no idea since your identity is not well-defined, and I can not unless you reveal it..
 * I had witnessed how you erase all valuable knowledge and efforts of people like retrieverlove.
 * The only point that you had concentrated on was to determine absurd names for them as nadia, helena, roxalana, holorifa...without providing any kind of official documentation.

Why don't you change the titles of these pages to these names that you had loved? YES, Ottoman History is completely finished on the mothers of Ottoman Sultans but the discussions may continue on the origins of these names: nadia, helena, roxalana, holorifa, sonia,...., and absolutely WON'T be the Ottoman History. 68.100.172.139 (talk) 23:49, 4 October 2014 (UTC) Correction: Ottoman History 68.100.172.139 (talk) 23:53, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You have lots to sort out. 11:32, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

Moving towards some improved navigation
I see there was a contentious, but not very decisive deletion discussion here. There was a lot of discussion about whether Mothers of the Ottoman Sultans was a useful grouping, and a bit less about whether that grouping was a good subject for a navbox. And as there was no consensus, this template will stay for now.

However, I notice that Template:Sultans of the Ottoman Empire has a link to the "Mothers" template that is labelled Valide Sultans. That seems like something everyone can agree is wrong. Mother and valide are not exactly the same thing. I think everyone in the discussion agreed that even though most valide sultans were the mother of a sultan, that wasn't always the case, and there were many women whose sons became sultan but who themselves were never the valide.

Also, AFAIK, there was only one valide sultan at a time. Therefore, it seems a navbox with a chronology of valide sultans (i.e. Template:Valide sultans ) could actually be useful. It does seem clear (in my opinion) that in terms of categories, Category:Valide sultan and Category:Mothers of Ottoman Sultans are separate overlapping concepts that are both useful and valid (no pun intended).

Some steps that could be taken:
 * 1) Build a navbox named Template:Valide sultans that links to the women who actually held the title. Get some discussion around it. No need to add it to any articles at this point.
 * 2) Create a category for Category:Mothers of Ottoman Sultans and ensure that both this and Category:Valide sultan have accurate membership, and that both contain an explanation of the difference between the two groupings.
 * 3) If there is a reasonable argument why a navbox (rather than category) is needed for mothers (rather than valide sultans), try to find a way to address that. So far, I haven't heard any argument that couldn't be covered by a category. But maybe I missed something.
 * 4) At that point, we can talk again about the idea of substituting the "valide" navbox in place of the "mothers" one.

The above is intended to get some agreement on a way forward. But I'd like to gather some input here before anyone launches into this. Rupert Clayton (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
 * The concept of valide sultan is a vague one. During the reign of the early sultans, it was not an official title and during the reign of the later sultans, some sultans never had a valide sultan (The Valides were already dead at the time of their son's enthronement like in the case of Selim II.) Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 21:07, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Hayme
An ambigious editor keeps adding the name Hayme Hatun to the list. Hayme Hatun was Osman's grandmother. So she was not a mother of an independent Ottoman sultan. To keep the template in accord with the title I deleted her name. But the editor is welcome to discuss the issue here. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:14, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

The mother of Osman Gazi
Necdet Sakaoğlu says she was a Yörük, the mother of Osman Gazi and the wife of Ertuğrul Gazi. 71.191.11.9 (talk) 18:26, 14 August 2016 (UTC)