Template talk:Navbar/Archive 3

If redirect

 * a very useful thing to have would be a '#ifredirect', so we could tell if the name being passed is a redirect, and correct it. Frietjes (talk) 16:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * just found Module:Redirect. we should use this to detect (or correct) the problem when a redirect is used for the edit link. Frietjes (talk) 16:50, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not clear on how that could help - Module:Redirect takes a link as a parameter (e.g. WP:AFC) and expands the proper target (Articles for creation). If you give it a link to the article page you're viewing, in which the navbox is embedded, it's helpless.  That said, there might be some other Lua method that can be used... the problem is, it's pretty hard.  Templates get transcluded in, then interpreted.  The same is true of Lua scripts or they wouldn't work when called by templates.  I can think of an "outrageous hack" method - a Lua script that reads in the originating page source code and modifies it - but that is absolutely not going to fly for something like this.  Wnt (talk) 17:46, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * seems to work, see below


 * or if we just want to check if something is a redirect


 * Template:Navigation box is
 * Template:Navbox is
 * I am missing something? Frietjes (talk) 19:12, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * You still have to put the template name in, so what's the benefit? — Edokter  ( talk ) — 19:53, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Seems like the benefit would be to use this to track cases where a redirect is passed as the template name. These are a problem since the edit links will take you to the redirect page and not to the template.  Seems like a significant benefit if we can find and fix these.  Can you create a lightweight module that just detects if a link is a redirect?  The LUA documentation seems to indicate this is possible with a single function (see the title objects section where they mention isRedirect)? Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ (talk)  01:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I just found Module:Page, which includes isRedirect. We could use something like


 * to find the problem cases that Frietjes mentioned. Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 01:41, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * thanks for pointing me to Module:Page, that is a much cheaper solution. Frietjes (talk) 14:29, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
 * [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3ASpanish_language&diff=570004325&oldid=569974220 a common problem]. it would be great if we could detect this problem here. Frietjes (talk) 15:24, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

url shown in print version
It uses
 * About:

When in "Printable version" (from article or userspace, today), the url for the "E" option is visible in the titlebar, bracketed:
 * V-T-E

It is actually printed too. Preventable? -DePiep (talk) 13:55, 3 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Seems like  does absolutely nothing. I'll put navbar in MediaWiki:Print.css. —  Edokter  ( talk ) — 17:00, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 6 May 2014
Please make these changes. This avoids polluting _G and clobbering the builtin error.

Jackmcbarn (talk) 20:31, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Done! Plastikspork ―Œ (talk) 03:40, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 23 May 2014
Please make these changes. This allows autodetection of the template name in some circumstances, calls Module:Arguments instead of using a crude reimplementation of it, and exports the _navbar function, to allow other modules to avoid an unnecessary argument parse when calling this module.

Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:03, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I've made code cleanup in these four edits. Latest version now. See editsummaries: rm trailing whitespace, rm space from tab('span '); rm spaces from xyz( argX ) into xyz(argX); replace 4-space indent with \t (tab). I did not touch ";" end of statements, though it looks being done inconsistently. -DePiep (talk) 17:43, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * -DePiep (talk) 17:48, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * LGTM. Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:51, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Padlock-pink-open.svg Not done: The page's protection level and/or your user rights have changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (t • e • c) 21:00, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Lua 2
Can we use Module:Navbar for this template now? --78.84.136.244 (talk) 11:46, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Any particular reason why?  16:48, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * There's some work that I want to get done with some of its callers first, then we can. Jackmcbarn (talk) 17:39, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It's better to keep the code all in one place. Otherwise there's the danger that the module and the template will grow far apart enough that we will be effectively be maintaining two different templates. — Mr. Stradivarius  ♪ talk ♪ 05:05, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Noprint effects
The {navbar} does not show in print, of course. By what mechanism is that achieved?

I have this situation:

When nested this way, the explicit link (the Help) does show up in print. Somehow the {navbar} nullifies the outer span class.

Of course I'll solve it by putting the {navbar} outside the span tags, but I find it interesting. -DePiep (talk) 11:31, 12 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Number 1 rule of HTMLTidy: Thou shalt not embed a block element inside an inline element. If you do, Tidy will just kick everything out of the inline element, and anything contained within will no longer be subject to any CSS or classes associated with that inline element.  11:42, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Aha. btw, it happened in an {infobox}, and I found noprint cleans my {navbar} + whatever stuff best. -DePiep (talk) 17:11, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Spurious line break with bracket+mini+float
Both these put the last bracket on its own line,

and

e.g.

Noticed on Template:BS-map which is used on many railway related pages.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 23:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I've never noticed this, and I visit a lot of pages with RDTs. I can't reproduce it either: please give examples of pages where it happens. -- Red rose64 (talk) 07:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It's visible in the two templates on this page, South Yorkshire Railway, which is where I first noticed it. The templates are Template:SYR Barnsley to Doncaster and Template:SYR Blackburn Valley Line. The problem's visible in Template:BS-map which is where the options for the template are set. I then checked a couple more members of Category:Templates for railway lines of the United Kingdom and they also had the problem.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 12:57, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks fine to me, in both MonoBook and Vector skins, in Firefox. Which skin and browser are you using? -- Red rose64 (talk) 13:03, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Like Redrose, I cannot reproduce this in any browser (Chrome, Firefox, Opera and IE). Try clearing your cache, that will probably fix it.  13:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

I'm using Safari on Mac OS X, the latest versions of both. I've tried clearing the cache, and also viewing with a different skin (?useskin=modern or ?useskin=monobook). Firefox looks OK; it's also different in another way, the letters V, T and E are slightly but noticeably smaller in Safari. Looking at the examples at Template:Navbar/doc in Safari not Firefox the V T E look like small caps, smaller that the other capital letters.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 14:33, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * No problem for me in Safari under Windows XP in Vector; but in MonoBook, the letters "v-t-e" are very tiny. Yes, these are styled as small caps: it's because of the CSS rule  -- Red rose64 (talk) 15:16, 29 July 2014 (UTC)
 * It's also using this, inherited from the  that contains the whole thing. Don't know if it's related but it's the only other visual difference between Safari and Firefox and there shouldn't be any.-- JohnBlackburne wordsdeeds 15:43, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

mini v-t-e links: abbr instead of span for accessibility
The v-t-e links currently use  to expand the abbreviations as tooltips, but this is inaccessible to various assistive technologies. (See title attribute accessibility problems discussed in this blog post, and this blog post.) Screen readers, in particular, ignore the title attributes and read them as nonsense letters: "Link, vee, link, tee, link, ee."

Replacing the tags with  will tell screen readers that these letters are abbreviations, and that their title attributes have a special meaning, their expansions. (See the HTML5 spec for abbr.) Screen readers with abbreviation expansion, such as JAWS, will offer much better output: "Link, view this template, link, discuss this template, link, edit this template."

Possible implementation: at lines 61, 71, and 83, replace  with

This change should be made concurrent with a change to MediaWiki:Common.css, though. At line 323, there is a  rule to make v-t-e small-caps, so that selector should be changed from   to. It might also be appropriate to add  to the same rule, to reset the   style set by MediaWiki's shared.css.

Matt Fitzpatrick (talk) 09:20, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There is merit, but needs testing in the sandbox (aside: only use edit protected for code that is ready, not to invite comments). Also, the dotted underline would need to be reset.  13:08, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I tested offline on a test wiki, but you're right, better safe than sorry! Here are some live test pages and sandboxes to make sure there aren't any problems. Also, yeah, a  reset will help. Matt Fitzpatrick (talk) 01:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC) OK, reopening request, since sandbox testing gave the same results as my offline tests, and nobody's mentioned any problems.
 * User:Matt Fitzpatrick/European diasporas (diff from Template:European diasporas)
 * User:Matt Fitzpatrick/Navbox (diff from Template:Navbox)
 * Module:Sandbox/Matt Fitzpatrick/Navbox (diff from Module:Navbox)
 * User:Matt Fitzpatrick/Navbar (diff from Template:Navbar)
 * Module:Sandbox/Matt Fitzpatrick/Navbar (diff from Module:Navbar)
 * Additional tests at User:Matt Fitzpatrick/sandbox

In Module:Navbar, at lines 61, 71, and 83, please replace  with.

In MediaWiki:Common.css, at line 323, please replace

.navbar.mini li span { font-variant: small-caps; } with .navbar.mini li abbr[title] { font-variant: small-caps; border-bottom: none; text-decoration: none; cursor: inherit; } Matt Fitzpatrick (talk) 14:07, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I've left a note at MediaWiki talk:Common.css letting the editors there know about this request. Also, I'm guessing that Edokter will want to take a look at this before we carry it out. — Mr. Stradivarius  ♪ talk ♪ 14:27, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll have a look. I simplified the CSS, as the selector doesn't need to be that specific (navbox is hidden in print anyway).  16:24, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I plugged Edokter's CSS into my offline test wiki and it works great. Matt Fitzpatrick (talk) 22:19, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * ✅ &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:19, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Wider support for V • T • E links
This template supports V • T • E links and several variations thereof, and strong consensus in favor of the V • T • E links feature has been confirmed. I propose that the functionality be copied/moved so that it's more available. I propose this functionality be supported by (but not the default on) all the Message box meta-templates. Ditto for the equivalents on commons - e.g. when visiting File:Nsa-ant-genesis.jpg, the PD-USGov template's talk page should be a link away, not hard to find.( Relevant: imbox Manual_of_Style/Article_message_boxes-- Elvey (t•c) 08:06, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I strongly oppose. There is reasonable consensus for having them on templates which contain actual content.  I strongly disagree with it being beneficial to add them to templates which do not contain content.  Message boxes are not, in general, something which people should be actively encouraged to edit on a regular basis, they should mostly remain constant after the wording is properly established.  In the case of Commons copyright tags, do we really want people who have possibly a limited understanding of how templates work to start asking questions about copyright on the tag's talk page, etc.  I see it as adding unnecessary chaos and confusion, with essentially no worthwhile benefit.  Templates containing content absolutely do need to be open and accessible to the majority of users, so that all of the content is accessible for editing.  Templates containing no content are mostly things best left to more experienced editors, who can already find the template very easily if and when they need to.  By default, MediaWiki has all templates used on a page just 2 clicks away to either view or edit, and 3 for talk, they are not really hard to find.  In this case, "keep it simple" means not providing unnecessary edit links on things which don't really need them.  If there are content templates which don't have them, I do support their addition to that limited case, where it is reasonable to do so.   Murph 9000  (talk) 08:43, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree that we don't want 'em on all the Message box meta-templates, and we don't want 'em to be the default for all the Message box meta-templates. (OP clarified .) But I do think we do want the option to add 'em with a navbar=on parameter. Often the tag's talk page has add'l info.
 * User:Murph9000:How do you get from File:Nsa-ant-genesis.jpg to COMMONS:Template_talk:PD-USGov with just 3 clicks? It takes me ~9 clicks and a multi-button mouse.  I guess by "templates which contain actual content", you mean ones not like infoboxes. Seems like we're largely in agreement.  -- Elvey (t•c) 16:44, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, there's 1 extra click if you start on WP and are wanting a Commons template, but here it is:
 * From File:Nsa-ant-genesis.jpg click "View on Commons" in the content actions at the top of the page content (where edit / view source would normally be).
 * (same page, but on Commons now) Click the "Page information" link in the tools on the left sidebar.
 * Scroll down to "Page properties", and you can view and edit any of the templates.
 * From either view or edit, you can now click talk.
 * It is normally just 3 clicks from page to any transcluded page on MediaWiki, Commons adds an extra click if you don't start there. You can also do it by editing the page (on Commons, if it's hosted there) and using "Templates used on this page" at the bottom of the action=edit page, same number of clicks.  I have no idea how you are making it so complicated / difficult (9 clicks).
 * If there are demonstrable real use cases (that are not either complete outliers or better solved another way) where there's a good case for inexperienced editors and non-editors needing to be on a template message page, I might rethink my position. Frankly, I'm just not seeing what those cases are right now, only great potential for people ending up in places that are not particularly useful or necessary for them (and may well be confusing or end up with talk being left unanswered and in completely the wrong place, plus an inevitable increase in good faith but disruptive edits to the wrong place in the case of unprotected templates).  I see essentially no benefit for the people who do need to get there, as it is already extremely easy.  It's not that I want to completely hide the templates from the inexperienced, more that I think MediaWiki can be confusing enough for them without making it too easy to end up in very much the wrong place (such an neck deep in complex template source, or their questions not getting answered due to being on an obscure talk page rather than one of the general support pages).
 * Murph 9000 (talk) 17:31, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I think much of the many arguments in favor of the V • T • E links feature made by User:CapitalR, User:Resolute, User:Nigel Ish, User:Hellknowz, User:Yoenit, User:Snowolf & User:Nyttend  apply more widely, however User:Redrose64 is right, they're not generally useful for infoboxes. -- Elvey (t•c) 16:44, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting adding these links to cleanup, wikify, unreferenced, etc? If so, I disagree: I agree with Murph9000 that content-providing templates should have them, but these are project maintenance templates that should be template-protected to prevent edits without consensus.  If you know how to find the talk page to see whether there's consensus, you know how to edit the template without these links, and edits will be quite rare anyway, so adding the links would save almost no time, but it would greatly increase the number of people trying-and-failing to edit them.  Nyttend (talk) 16:56, 23 January 2016 (UTC)


 * I will echo Murph9000's viewpoint. VTE links on content-based templates are useful.  They are far less useful on maintenance templates.  In the provided example of "sometimes the talk page has more information", I would say the solution there is to link to the talk page inside the template's text blurb. Resolute 19:38, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Oppose Users seem to find their way to pages like Template talk:Citation needed, Template talk:Db-meta, Template talk:Edit fully-protected, Template talk:Reflist or Template talk:Rfd often enough. There's no need to make it easier for them to use something other than the article's own talk page to post their misplaced explanations. -- Red rose64 (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Strong support if the use in messageboxes and other administrative templates and such is wrapped a CSS class that is hidden by default at Mediawiki:Common.css, which can be made visible in user CSS by registered users who know what they are doing. This would be a major time-saver for experienced template-editors.  I also support the links being added, without being hidden, to infoboxes (where it is not common yet), navboxes (where it's already common), and other mainspace, content-filled templates. It's pushing the boundaries (in a negative sense, of erecting barrier to entry) at "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit" to keep stuffing more and more content into templates that only experienced editors even understand the existence of.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  12:43, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Please give examples of templates where you think that the addition of navbar links would be beneficial. -- Red rose64 (talk) 22:25, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, there are hidden navbars on most project talk page banners and all stub templates. With 10 people using personal CSS to show the stub links and 6 for the project banners (with one of those people being Redrose64). So, overall, not a lot of people are finding those useful. -- WOSlinker (talk) 23:47, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I asked for examples where "the addition of navbar links would be beneficial", and you give two - both of which (provided that the registered user has installed a CSS rule) already have them. I'm confused: are you suggesting that these should have the links visible to all users - or that they should be removed from all users? -- Red rose64 (talk) 10:16, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I suppose I'm giving examples of where they have been added but the benefit is minimal. Personally, I'm not bothered either way but just wanted to mention these in the discussion so that everyone can see what has already been done. -- WOSlinker (talk) 16:07, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Additional features
It would be nice to have the following:

The full version could exist as a wrapper at, say, that aliases  and passes other parameters (including a n, if someone wants to turn on the usually unused verbiage). — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  12:35, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Additional items (added as a group with y (several of these are found on other templates, e.g. )
 * History [H]
 * Watchlist [W] – toggle watched/unwatched
 * Purge [P] or Refresh [R] ("purge" may sound alarming to people unfamiliar with MediaWiki's technical detail; this is why "Refresh" is used at )
 * Perma-link [L] – call up current version as a history page
 * Ability to add/suppress each item case-by-case, with y, n, in a way that overrides y (in particular because many of the things that use this template do not have, should not have, and in some cases cannot have talk pages)
 * Auto-suppression of display of the item in question when already on that page (e.g. if on a page with this template, show T - E, but not V; if on a talk page with this template, show V - E but not T.
 * Have a look at v. As for the other links you suggest; they have nothing to do with navigation and are all personal tools. Those should not be splattered around (in article space).  18:11, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Case v-t-e
Wikipedia has always used a down style - notably the tabs "article" "talk" "edit" - which v-t-e emulates, and the show/hide on the RHS of the navbar are lower-case.

It would be nice if v-t-e could revert to its former lower case glory.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:18, 21 February 2016 (UTC).


 * It is, technically - it's styled as, which makes the links look like capital letters: v t e . If you drag your mouse over a navbar like , copy and paste to somewhere else, they come out as "v t e".
 * BTW shall we be seeing you in Oxford later today? -- Red rose64 (talk) 00:26, 21 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The resason small caps are used is because the lower case letters are too narrow to click on.  19:59, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

So perhaps instead of:

 v t</li> <li class="nv-talk">e</li> </ul>

We could use:

<ul> <li class="nv-talk">&thinsp;v&thinsp;</li> <li class="nv-talk">&thinsp;t&thinsp;</li> <li class="nv-talk">&thinsp;e&thinsp;</li> </ul>

Or:

<ul> <li class="nv-talk">v</li> <li class="nv-talk">&thinsp;t&thinsp;</li> <li class="nv-talk">e</li> </ul>

if it's only the "t" we are worried about (per the original discussion).

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:44, 22 February 2016 (UTC).


 * Mainly the 't', which is only 3 pixels wide. The thinsp's don't help.  21:08, 22 February 2016 (UTC)
 * They help me. The active area is larger, the underline is larger.

<ul> <li class="nv-talk">v</li> <li class="nv-talk">&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;t&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;&thinsp;</li> <li class="nv-talk">e</li> </ul>
 * Does this version not work for you either? All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:40, 10 March 2016 (UTC).

Module:Navbar causing problems on cy-wiki
Can someone tell me what's the problem on Pencampwriaeth y Chwe Gwlad 2016's infobox (apart from the rugby!)? Thanks! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 07:20, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * At cy:Nodyn:Infobox Six Nations Championship, try altering name to title, or just remove that parameter. In an infobox, the name parameter is used to create navbar links (these show as v-t-e or view-talk-edit on English Wikipedia), they're rarely useful in an infobox except where a fully-populated infobox is on a separate page from the article, like at the bottom of . -- Red rose64 (talk) 15:44, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Wild Welsh and wicked! Well done my red, red rose! Diolch! Llywelyn2000 (talk) 06:27, 13 March 2016 (UTC)

wrong divine temple academy page Protected edit request on 7 July 2016
That your post is wrong divine temple academy is in nepal why do u erease that please make it free from editing

Ashish lc (talk) 10:12, 7 July 2016 (UTC)That your post is wrong divind temple academy is in nepal why do u erease that please make it free from editing
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: Sorry I don't know what you are asking &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:21, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 10 September 2016
Untitled Wolverine film is confirmed to being a part of future timeline. So, please add that film to the future timeline.

Taniya94 (talk) 09:15, 10 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: this is the talk page for discussing improvements to the template . Please make your request at the talk page for the article concerned. Murph 9000  (talk) 09:21, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 March 2017
Please merge the sandbox version of the module to the main version. This modifies the collapsible navbar so that the title is contained in a div with padding to the left and right. This does not affect anything which is currently in use, although I will implement it in Navbar-collapsible pending a site CSS change which removes extraneous padding from the V · T · E links and the collapse button. Jc86035 (talk) Thanks, Jc86035 (talk) <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;re&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125; to reply to me 12:32, 13 March 2017 (UTC) to reply to me 00:14, 14 March 2017 (UTC) to reply to me 03:08, 18 March 2017 (UTC) to reply to me 10:54, 21 March 2017 (UTC) to reply to me 12:01, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Has this proposal been discussed anywhere? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:08, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Why use div and not span? Primefac (talk) 17:21, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The aforementioned CSS change was implemented as a result of Module:Navbox getting its own header padding (discussed at Template talk:Navbox), and affects all templates using the navbox class (including Navbar-collapsible). AFAIK a span tag has padding to the left/right of the characters and not a rectangle containing the text, but I'm not entirely sure, though the div tag is used in Routemap and Navbox and it works fine. Jc86035 (talk) <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;re&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125;
 * A span tag can have padding set all around, like this, although whether your browser displays any padding top & bottom is another matter. Firefox 52 doesn't. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 00:22, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Could the change be merged? Jc86035 (talk) <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;re&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125;
 * As I cannot see the difference (FF52 user) I cannot see the change, and thus I cannot comment on its necessity. It seems that both spans and divs are used (successfully) in various places, so unless there actually is a non-FF-display reason for the update it seems more like a cosmetic edit. In other words, I don't strictly oppose the change, but I'm not going to implement it. Primefac (talk) 12:41, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The change from span to div doesn't really matter, I think, since the rendered output for both of them in this particular case is largely the same. The problem is that there is no padding since it was removed in MediaWiki:Common.css last week, and so the header text isn't aligned exactly in the centre (and moves around when the box is expanded and collapsed). Jc86035 (talk) <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;re&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125;
 * Yes check.svg Done Primefac (talk) 11:27, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but can you merge the sandbox again? I forgot to remove styling making the V · T · E box 6em wide. Thanks, Jc86035 (talk) <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;re&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125;
 * Yes check.svg Done Primefac (talk) 12:11, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 13 May 2017
Could the contents of the sandbox be copied to the main template? This change fixes the formatting for the square brackets so that they render properly without HTML Tidy. Thanks, Jc86035 (talk) <span style="display:inline-block;margin-bottom:-0.3em;vertical-align:-0.4em;line-height:1.2em;font-size:80%;text-align:left">Use &#123;&#123;re&#124;Jc86035&#125;&#125; to reply to me 07:28, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Primefac (talk) 12:41, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

Generalize the title text
Currently, the title text of each link specifies "template". However, Navbar is explicitly designed to be usable with non-template pages, and in these cases the word "template" may not be appropriate. Therefore, the text should be generalized, at the very least by taking the namespace of the page passed to Navbar into consideration, and possibly also with a parameter allowing customization. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 13:20, 5 September 2017 (UTC) It could, but that would create all sorts of confusion. Here's an example:
 * , please show me where this template is being used in a non-template manner. Primefac (talk) 14:45, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I can't point to anywhere on Wikipedia off-hand; this is more a concern for reusers on other wikis (though personally I have little doubt there are uses even here that would benefit). While certainly individual wikis could modify the module to their liking, that would require them to be aware of the current behavior and to have an editor on-hand capable of working with Lua, and every wiki would have to redo the work for themselves (or find another wiki that had already done the requisite work).
 * While it is certainly true that template/module maintainers on Wikipedia have no obligation to consider reusers on other wikis, this is a relatively simple and minor adjustment that I believe would have some benefit here as well. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 22:27, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry to belabour this point,, but do you have evidence on other wikis that this is happening? Don't get me wrong, I understand your concerns, but there really is not much point in fixing something that isn't broken, as they say.
 * As a minor note, I do not see anywhere in the documentation (either on the template or the module) that it is explicitly designed to be usable with non-template pages; as far as any non-template-space usage is concerned, it's not prohibited but it's not exactly encouraged either. Primefac (talk) 12:15, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
 * While perhaps not the best example, the template is used in exactly the way I describe by the Yu-Gi-Oh! Wikia; see for example http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Shonen_Jump_promotional_cards#List
 * Yes, I shouldn't have used the word "explicitly", really. I can't answer whether the past editors of this template/module ever made changes with the explicit purpose of supporting uses for non-template/module pages, but certainly it was originally designed solely for use with templates, and at some point was generalized (some time before the rename from Tnavbar in April 2009; it's worth noting that the move rationale does explicitly state that the rename is in response to the template being generalized to work with all namespaces). 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 11:09, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Been digging through the lua module, and when it all comes down to it, there's a simple way to check this sort of thing. I just did this, which produces <<subpage changed, permaLink is Special:PermaLink/799897098>>
 * which links to the proper location. So it does work in all namespaces. Primefac (talk) 13:35, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I never said it doesn't, only that, when originally created, it didn't. It was generalized at some time between its creation in 2006 and the rename from Tnavbar to Navbar in 2009 so that it would work with any namespace. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 13:20, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay, you've completely lost me. You asked that it work in all namespaces, but it does, and now you say that you know it does. What are you wanting? Primefac (talk) 13:44, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The title text (the text that appears when you hover over one of the links - "View this template", "Discuss this template", "Edit this template") is specific to the Template namespace; it is this that I'm requesting be made to work with any namespace. I acknowledged in my original comment that the template overall already works with any namespace. 「 ディノ 奴 千？！ 」? · ☎ Dinoguy1000 14:09, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Hover text. Gotcha.
 * Now I'm going to argue semantics with you, because one can have a user space template (such as User:Primefac/RS or User:UBX/AAHL-Loggers. Just because it isn't in the template namespace doesn't mean that a transcluded page isn't a "template". Primefac (talk) 15:28, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * This is Module:Navbar which contains the following three (non-contiguous) lines:  I'm no Lua expert, so I don't know how those three instances of "template" might be conditionally altered to "page". -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:35, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * I arbitrarily chose Angola. Two navbars at the bottom. You over over "e" for each and it says "edit this template". Let's assume we institute the above suggestion. Now we have two templates that each say "edit this page", implying that you're editing Angola instead of Template:Angola topics or Template:Countries of Africa.

This is why I started arguing semantics, because while I agree that "this template" is nonspecific should we happen to have a template being transcluded from somewhere other than the Template space, but again I would argue that a userspace template (or even a WikiProject template) is still a "template" in that it gets transcluded from one place to another, especially if it's using navbar. Primefac (talk) 19:45, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * No, I didn't mean that it should always be "page", nor that it should change depending on where it was transcluded to: but should change according to the namespace where the navbar is actually used. So for example in Angola, we have ; and this is hosted in Template: namespace, so the link's title attribute correctly uses the word "template". If, for some reason, the code which begins  were not in template space, then it would be appropriate to show the word "page". What I am saying is that the line   might be altered to something along the lines of   But as I say, I'm no Lua expert. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:34, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Or something. This Lua code is all unreadable; I can't track it through at all - and this module is quite small., how the heck does the first positional parameter of Template:Navbar get converted into  for the "view" link? Let's not worry about the other two at this stage. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 20:55, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * In Module:Navbar at line 19, you find:
 * The previous lines set titleArg to 1 or 2 depending on whether it's 'collapsible' and/or 'plain', so that either the first or second positional parameter (i.e. args[1] or args[2]) is used to set titleText.
 * If that parameter does not exist, then the  sets titleText to a colon plus the title of the page from which the template is called
 * Line 20 then creates a "title object" called 'title' representing the given title in the 'Template' namespace, and lines 22-24 throw an error if that is not a valid title.
 * Line 26 sets a variable 'talkpage': if the page can have a talk page, it is a string containing the title of the page, with the namespace and interwiki prefixes and the fragment; otherwise it is nil.
 * The documentation for the mw.title.new function is at mw:Extension:Scribunto/Lua reference manual.
 * Lines 54 onwards create a, within that is an <ul ></ul> containing <li ></li> - the first of which (on lines 57-66) uses , which is the title of the page corresponding to the 'title' object created in line 20 (with the namespace and interwiki prefixes and the fragment per documemtation of .fullText).
 * Is that what you wanted to know? --RexxS (talk) 23:07, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
 * The problem still becomes one of language, and being specific. Let's use your Country topics example - if it were not in the template space, and it said "edit this page", it would still have a dual meaning - edit the article you're looking at, or edit the page where this "template" is found? I can understand the concerns raised, but (to quote H:T) a template is a Wikipedia page created to be included in other pages. If something is actively being transcluded onto multiple pages, it's a template (especially if it's using navbar).
 * Now, if we come up with a way (in two words or less) to accurately describe "edit this X" that will inform the user that they will be editing a different page (regardless of namespace) then I'm happy to make that change to the module. At the moment, though, I'm just concerned that we're trying to delineate the spades from the shovels. Primefac (talk) 13:05, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Perhaps we could use the wording "Edit this navbox"? I would assume that anyone competent enough to edit the particular instance of the navbox would be well enough informed to understand what the 'navbox' would be. --RexxS (talk) 20:41, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * That would be acceptable, and I almost implemented the change, but then I noticed that Deletion tools uses it as well, as do some other sidebars and portals. Philosophically, can we call a sidebar a navbox?Primefac (talk) 21:17, 21 September 2017 (UTC) I also just found that Public domain copyright templates uses this template Primefac (talk) 21:19, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, it's not my call, and I'm not trusted to edit this template or its module, but I'd simply enable another parameter that defaults to "template" when absent. Then use that in the hover-tip, something like:
 * Then anyone could modify the tooltip to "View/Discuss/Edit this navbox or sidebar or whatever" according to taste. It's not going to be moved away once it's placed on a page, so it doesn't really need to dynamically determine what it's being used in and a editor only needs to make that call once. --RexxS (talk) 22:22, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's going to do the job that I was thinking of using another method for. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:31, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Then anyone could modify the tooltip to "View/Discuss/Edit this navbox or sidebar or whatever" according to taste. It's not going to be moved away once it's placed on a page, so it doesn't really need to dynamically determine what it's being used in and a editor only needs to make that call once. --RexxS (talk) 22:22, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's going to do the job that I was thinking of using another method for. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:31, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks, that's going to do the job that I was thinking of using another method for. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 23:31, 21 September 2017 (UTC)

Color accessibility issue in V*T*E links on standard navbox title color
I discovered that the wikipedia red link color on the standard navbox title color does not obey the WCAG 2.0 standards for text color contrast below 18pt. Not sure what to do about this. I started a discussion about this at WT:WikiProject Accessibility, feel free to join in. —hike395 (talk) 07:01, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

Three templates, one function?
So after a related TFD I realized that this template, v, and view all pretty much do the same things. It would be fairly straightforward to add in the h/m/w links to the navbar module, so does it really make sense to have three templates? Primefac (talk) 19:33, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Seems like a straight forward candidate for merging to me. SFB 21:03, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Template:V was actually meant to replace Navbar. It was designed for more extensibility and intuitive utilization. Essentially anything can easily be done with V. 86.218.97.221 (talk) 04:03, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Why is this page protected?
Why have you put this page under protection and why is everything hidden? Is that to stop people from posting all the music that jamiroquai have stole on those guys music list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amir 86302 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
 * , I think you're posting in the wrong place. This page is protected because it is used on nearly 8 million pages, but it has nothing to do with music. Primefac (talk) 18:18, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Merging in of View and V
So I've coded the merge in of Template:V and Template:View at Module:Navbar/sandbox. Thankfully nothing horrible with the code; I have a few notes:
 * v technically allows to do say to produce, i.e have a different order of view talk and edit etc; the way I've coded it always has the same order regardless of how it is inputed; it'd be more complicated to code it the other way, and it seems reasonable to have a consistent ordering
 * one can also mix mini and non-mini with v e.g gives . Similarly limited
 * If view is just redirected to the new version of navbar, then this breaks the cases of, i.e, the ones without template by giving instead of . There isn't really any way to fix that And anyhow, one'd have to have 1 on each instance of view thus both v and view should probably just be convenience wrappers for navbar rather than redirected, as I've done on v/sandbox and view/sandbox. Either that or someone needs to fix the instances where template isn't given and add plain and mini as appropriate.

the participants of the TFD for their thoughts Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:12, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 7 April 2018
Copy the sandbox (revision) to complete the merger of v and view as described above. Tested at Template:Navbar/testcases, Template:Navbox/testcases, and Module:Navbar/testcases; and Template:V/testcases for the new functionality Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:55, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done, am I to assume this means that v and view can be redirected here? Primefac (talk) 12:43, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * the explanation is above - you'd first need to add some parameters to all transclusions if one wanted to do that - as they are formatted differently - plain and mini would need to be set Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:31, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, right, totally helps to actually read previous discussions. I'll get on it. Primefac (talk) 13:35, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 9 April 2018
Revert last edit to Module:Navbar! HIGHLY-visible template is bugged because of the last edit done by ! w umbolo  ^^^  12:57, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * FYI - looks like this error is stemming from sidebar style templates. SFB 13:04, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Came here to report Inflation_(cosmology). --Izno (talk) 13:08, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * fixed [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Module%3ANavbar&type=revision&diff=835562114&oldid=835559195 here]. Frietjes (talk) 18:10, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * If the aim of that edit was to remove global variables, another local is needed on line 52:  Johnuniq (talk) 23:37, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Done. Primefac (talk) 17:56, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Navbox without v - t - e possible?
The title says it all: Is it possible to create a navbox without the v-t-e part on the top left or can that not be done due to dependencies to the navbar and v templates? If it is not possible, is there something similar you could recommend as some kind of infobox that spans over the top of a page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lithimlin (talk • contribs) 17:54, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * , if you are planning on using navbox, then yes, it will have the v-t-e . What sort of instance would you want a navbox without it (i.e. please give an example)? Having a navbox without the ability to easily find and edit it would be problematic. Primefac (talk) 17:56, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Putting plain when creating a template with navbox will disable the navbar; though indeed as Primefac says that it'd be better to know what you're using it for Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:59, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Huh. Learn something new every day. Primefac (talk) 18:04, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * As I said, I basically just want to make an infobox, that is not on the right side with a fixed width, but rather at the top of the page, spanning across it. Lithimlin (talk) 18:20, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, it looks like you can. If you run into issues feel free to drop at note at WT:WPT. Primefac (talk) 18:22, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Will do so. Thank you. Lithimlin (talk) 18:24, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * If you are using the template, and you want the v-t-e links omitting, all you need to do is omit the name parameter - or leave it blank. No need for any plain etc. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 18:46, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * You mean the title parameter, right? Lithimlin (talk) 19:02, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * No, I mean the name parameter. That has just one purpose: to set the v-t-e links. If that param is blank or absent, there are no links. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:35, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I just tried it and not setting a didn't change anything. However, if there's no, there will also not be any v-t-e links. Lithimlin (talk) 19:38, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Where are you testing this? It would help a lot more if we could see what you're attempting. Primefac (talk) 19:39, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm testing this in a wiki I'm helping to put together right now. I'm kind of misusing the navbox here, but it was the only thing I found so far that can be used as an infobox that spans across the top of a page instead of being on the top right of it.
 * Right, all bets are off. This is the English Wikipedia, and this page, Template talk:Navbar is for discussing improvements to the template Template:Navbar at English Wikipedia. Nothing else. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 19:46, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, this can be closed, as the original problem has been explained. Lithimlin (talk) 19:48, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Make tooltips optional so "sortable" doesn't break in sports tables?
Sports tables, like this one, can't be sortable. A comment in the Module:Sports_table says the problem is caused by Navbar and gives a link to [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=832717047#Sortable_link_disables_navbar_links? this comment], which says "It's caused by adding tooltips to the link text with <abbr title="Discuss this template">t instead of just t. There is no current option to omit the tooltips but it could be requested at Template talk:Navbar."

So, to fix Module:Sports_table, could someone add that option to Navbar? Other solutions for Module:Sports_table would also be welcome. Thanks. Great floors (talk) 15:02, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Making that table sortable, as I did here, seems to work fine. That bug would only affect tables with navbars, of which this isn't Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:41, 29 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I've made a start now at fixing Module:Sports table (which was either out of date or just very incomplete). Great floors (talk) 17:53, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

Add purge
Would it be possible to get an option added to this so that a `purge` link could be added? -- Zackmann08 (Talk to me/What I been doing) 20:50, 17 September 2018 (UTC)
 * if you open your "Preferences" page and go to the "Gadgets" section you will find a couple options for adding a purge link to pages. Frietjes (talk) 14:37, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
 * as always, you rock. :-) -- Zackmann08 (Talk to me/What I been doing) 16:43, 18 September 2018 (UTC)

Request: Add template styles to existing stylesheet
Please add: to this template. This will allow us to manage styles for mobile and desktop in one central place and remove them from MediaWiki:Mobile.css. Navbar's are not present on all pages so this would reduce the amount of CSS we ship to users. Jdlrobson (talk) 23:18, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
 * This should be done in Module:Navbar. Change sandboxed Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:05, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * See Module talk:Navbar/testcases, Template:Navbar/testcases, and Template:Navbox/testcases. Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:11, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * What is extensionTag doing? I have a rough idea of its function but without knowing much about templatestyles I would have thought that adding the wikitext shown above was what was wanted. Just curious, was there a reason no_globals was removed from the sandbox in April? Possibly because navbar was used with other modules that had globals? At any rate, the  variable should be declared  . Johnuniq (talk) 06:41, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the catch on the local variable! (apparently I still haven't learnt my lesson from last time..). Reason I removed; wasn't sure if the final code I should have Module:No globals (this module is used in so many places that it could possible break something..), but should definitely test in sandbox to make sure there are no globals. Regarding extensionTag, It is the same thing as using which would do basically the same as   Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:11, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I added no globals to the testcases so that should be tested there at-least. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:18, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, but I think you are saying there is no reason to use extensionTag. Just add the wikitext without the complexity/overhead of calling extensionTag. Johnuniq (talk) 08:39, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * You'd have to do frame:preprocess{'<templatestyles src="Navbar/styles.css" />'} which has no less complexity/overhead. Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:51, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, now we're getting to my question. Why does the tag need to be preprocessed? I understand that preprocessing is needed if you want a template expanded but in my innocence I thought the plain wikitext of templatestyles would do. I don't have an idea of when/how it loads the required css. Why would preprocessing help with that? Perhaps I should go to WP:VPT. Johnuniq (talk) 09:03, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * if it isn't preprocessed it'll just show the bare text like <templatestyles src="Navbar/styles.css" /> ( gives )
 * This is because mw:Extension:Scribunto/Lua_reference_manual: "At this point in the page parse, templates have already been expanded, parser functions and extension tags have already been processed, and pre-save transforms (e.g. signature tilde expansion and the pipe trick) have already happened." So when Lua returns the text it won't have the regular processing be done on it, including processing tags; so it needs to be preprocessed. Galobtter (pingó mió) 09:09, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * When the templatestyles tag is preprocessed it'll be replaced with a strip marker and then later turned into the style html (which one example is like this:  if you're curious.) Galobtter (pingó mió) 09:12, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for those details. That's pretty weird! We have something that looks like html (the templatestyles wikitext) but it gets expanded. I suppose I'll get used to it. Johnuniq (talk) 09:33, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The HTML-like appearance of should not be unfamiliar: consider <ref ></ref> which is found in so many articles; this looks like HTML (but is not HTML), it's part of the cite.php extension to the MediaWiki software. Then there are <gallery ></gallery>, <math ></math>, <noinclude ></noinclude>, <nowiki ></nowiki>,  and <syntaxhighlight ></syntaxhighlight> (which is used above), all of which are either part of MediaWiki, or are coded as extensions to it. There are several others - I won't list them, there are at least twenty in all. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 12:10, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * True. I guess my mental model of when things happen is faulty. I was imagining that &lt;ref&gt; and friends would be handled in some final stage of rendering, but on reflection I have seen that a ref is a strip marker by the time a module gets its input. I suppose the rendering that I hadn't thought about is exactly the step which expands templates/modules and so is the last chance to expand other things like templatestyles. Thanks all. Johnuniq (talk) 23:58, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Template/module for ptwiki
I'm trying to implement this template/module on ptwiki, but there is this bug where it works fine in most cases, except for "edit" and "Edit this template" when it's used with V and View (and I suppose the same for "hist" and "watch"). Instead of displaying text in Portuguese, it instead displays it in English. I was thinking someone could help me out. Here's the testcase page on ptwiki. —CaiusSPQR (talk) 17:58, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Never mind, everyone. I just figured it out. It was a problem with the V and View templates. —CaiusSPQR (talk) 18:35, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

A little technical problem
You know those drop down templates found at the bottoms of articles, such as Template:Xiamen? Also know how there are three buttons at the top left on all of them that say "V", "T", and "E", for "view", "talk", and "edit"? I'm on Chrome on a Huawei phone, and none of the buttons work at all. Pressing them only brings up descriptions of the buttons, "edit this template", etc. I can still edit them of course, but it's kind of inconvenient. How do I fix this? <b style="color:#00205B">Woshiyiwei</b><b style="color:#0077C0">zhongguo</b><b style="color:#00205B">ren</b> (<b style="color:#0077C0">🇨🇳</b>) 11:17, 28 March 2019 (UTC) (Originally asked at the Teahouse and the Village Pump but later moved here)