Template talk:No footnotes/Archive 1

Harvard referencing is referencing :-(
I've seen vastly under-informed "editors" placing this tag on articles that are very well referenced using Harvard notation. Please, please take the time to learn more about referencing before using this template!!! Ling.Nut 15:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Please read the template. The claim is not that the article is uncited, but that it could be improved by using Wikipedia's  tag to associate references with their respective sections of text. While, for uniformity, it is conventional to use the citation templates to format references, there's nothing stopping you from entering such references in your favorite reference format (just don't be upset when, predictably, someone comes along and converts them to citation templates). -Harmil 19:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Please add this to see also section
Please add to the see also section. I've done the inverse, but for some seemingly arbitrary reason this template is considered high-risk and is not. 68.167.253.27 03:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC).


 * Done. Federico Grigio, alias Nahraana (talk) 05:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Small changes
A couple small suggested modifications:
 * 1) Get rid of "a list of" between "references or" and "external links" -- minor redundancy
 * 2) Link "external links" to External links

— xDanielx  T/C\R 02:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Yes check.svg|20px]] Done. Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 04:48, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks! — xDanielx  T/C\R 19:00, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup /doc
editprotected

Please replace the category in the template with:

—  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 02:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ Done --ais523 15:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Ridiculous
This template is ridiculous. Even the linked to page, Citing sources only has this to say about inline citations:
 * Inline citations are needed for statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, including contentious material about living persons, and for all quotations.

The only theoretically valid use of an amended form of this template would be in places where there are statements needing specifically backed up with inline citations. Even so, in such a situation, the inline "citation needed" content vandalism can be used.

Nevermind that it's a very poor way to manage thigns to plaster templates across articles to provide notes to editors (and as regards our readers, they can't take anything on Wikipedia at face value due to the means of operation, it's not very sensible to single out some articles for special treatment in providing "this may not be true" warnings).

zoney &#09827; talk 00:17, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Our readers may not be able to take Wikipedia at face value. Unfortunately, many of them do. Most of my students seem convinced that everything on Wikipedia is unbiased gospel truth. The more tags the better if they remind readers to be cautious around unfinished pages. Cop 663 (talk) 04:20, 12 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Good point, well taken, wrong template. Having said that, I still agree that the template isn't ridiculous, as it serves to decrease the distance between the listed sources and the specific content dependent on them. Mira Gambolputty (talk) 01:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree. There is no requirement for inline citations, and slapping this tag on articles that don't have them is only one half step above vandalism. Dhaluza (talk) 19:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think inline citations are very important, otherwise it cannot be said on which source every sentence or paragraph is based on. If one is not publishing original research, why sholdn't one be able to make inline citations throughout the text?  In my view the template is good (and I use it a lot) because it does promote using inline citations (many of the times I used this template the main article author added inline citation as a result).  Federico Grigio, alias Nahraana (talk) 05:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying inline citations are bad, they just are not required (unless a particular statement is contentious). If you think inline citations are important, then by all means, use them (I do). But don't use this template to deface an otherwise good article. There is no need for the editors to make the verification idiot-proof. If you want to verify the text, you should be willing to read the references. Then if you want to add additional inline citations, go right ahead. Just don't expect someone else to do it for you. Dhaluza (talk) 13:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

High risk template
I'm sure it is exactly that, but can somebody please edit it to select a much smaller font. The template looks quite overdone when rendered at the top of lots of articles. Mira Gambolputty (talk) 00:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Example:

instead of:


 * I think as it is currently the template is fine. If made smaller it would almost pass unadverted.  Federico Grigio, alias Nahraana (talk) 20:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Title bolding
Can anyone bold the title as is standard across Wikipedia? ☆ CieloEstrellado 16:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ❌ please be more specific. Happy‑melon 15:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Iw-link
Please include a link to Swedish Wikipedia using sv:Mall:Ingafotnoter. Ulner (talk) 22:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. Federico Grigio, alias Nahraana (talk) 05:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Spanish interwiki
Admins, could you please add the interwiki

es:Plantilla:Citasenlínea

Thanks a lot. Federico Grigio, alias Nahraana (talk) 20:44, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Done. Federico Grigio, alias Nahraana (talk) 05:08, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

+Adequate
I should like to suggest that "because it lacks in-text citations." be amplified to "because it lacks adequate in-text citations." This will enable the template to be used where there are some inline citations but they are insufficient. TerriersFan (talk) 18:03, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
 * For that purpose there is another template: Template:Morefootnotes. Federico Grigio, alias Nahraana (talk) 05:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you. TerriersFan (talk) 15:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Problem with this template Sept 15, 2007
This edit: seems to have caused this template to mis-render. Can someone please address it? Thanks. -Harmil 3:07 pm, 15 September 2007, Saturday (7 years, 3 months, 26 days ago) (UTC−4)
 * It's back, but now it's an orange bar next to the text. Can whoever is messing around with this or whatever underlying template please do so in a sandbox? -Harmil 3:08 pm, 15 September 2007, Saturday (7 years, 3 months, 26 days ago) (UTC−4)
 * Check out the Template standardization page, it seems all the templates are getting this treatment. The bar stands for "content", even though it seems to be a "style" issue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiLeon (talk • contribs) 12:40 am, 16 September 2007, Sunday (7 years, 3 months, 25 days ago) (UTC−4)

Can an admin please add support for to this template? Thanks. --the Wild Falcon (talk | log) 13:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Add where appropriate (per FAC)
Please add where appropriate after "You can improve this article by introducing more precise citations" (as I did to morefootnotes). That guideline should be referenced to guide users of this template, and editors who want to address the issues. For an example of this usage, see the 1.c. in Featured article criteria. Dhaluza (talk) 20:56, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk)  22:53, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Possibilities
I think that the tag should say "This article and/or section includes a list of references or external links." Also, I think that the template should be able to allow subst:dated to be put in front of nofotnotes so that a date could be seen. -- Ŵïllî§ï$2  ( Talk! / Cont. ) 03:15, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
 * It should probably also include a category for the articles the template is placed on. -- Ŵïllî§ï$2  ( Talk! / Cont. ) 03:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Add date
Replace:

With:

Gary King ( talk ) 21:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


 * ✅ Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk)  22:18, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:Citations missing
Template:Citations missing has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. (This template is a potential merge-to or redir-to.) —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93; ‹(-¿-)› 06:01, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Linked page
Nofootnotes links to a page that no longer contains even a mention of linked citations, and never did define them. Censors sloppier and lazier than contributors? Anarchangel (talk) 17:10, 1 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, actually, the page does contain a mention: Citing sources Perhaps this template should be edited to provide a more precise link to #Inline reference. However, editing is blocked so I won't be the one to do it. Butwhatdoiknow (talk) 13:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess I'm the censor in question, but I don't see how my edit was sloppy or lazy. The term you use, "linked citations", is not used in the template, so why should the linked guideline define it?
 * This template correctly refers to "inline citations", which may or may not contain "embedded links". Butwhatdoyouknow is right about the piped link, though. After I made my edit, the section headers at WP:CITE were changed, so I've fixed it both there and here. — Satori Son 16:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Style edits
I've made a few tweaks to the styling on the new sandbox. Just needs synced. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 00:27, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅. Cirt (talk) 01:35, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Requested edit
Please remove the extraneous that was added in this edit. It's outside the noinclude Kolindigo (talk) 01:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Also remove the extraneous &mdash; G716  &lt;T·C&gt; 02:16, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

See Dodge Coronet for an example of the problem. Ariel. (talk) 02:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Template corrupted
Not sure if this is a different problem to the one above; I see it on List of The X Factor finalists (UK series 5) but not on Dodge Coronet, so I'm assuming it's different.

Anyway, on the former article, immediately after the template text, I see a box with the heading "Documentation", followed by the text. Something's gone wrong. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.47.27 (talk) 02:33, 7 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Seems to have been fixed -- or fixed itself -- now. 86.134.47.27 (talk) 03:09, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

second template doc
Please delete the second from inside the   section. Also remove all spaces and line breaks between the  and the. Thanks &mdash; G716  &lt;T·C&gt; 06:13, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ✅. Cirt (talk) 14:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

When to remove template?
Forgive me if this is answered elsewhere, as I have searched for an answer but found none. Who determines when enough inline citations have been added to an article with the notice to justify its removal? Please see my statement here. --Thomprod (talk) 14:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's simple: all statements should be supported by citations that verify them (see WP:V). If only half the job has been done, you shouldn't remove the template.Cop 663 (talk) 18:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

suggestion for improvement of this template and morefootnotes
The template text mentions "Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations where appropriate" but it doesn't mention how to do this. I think it would help the editor to include a link within the template text to "Wikilinks to full references" (or WP:CITEX) which shows the editor a quick and easy way how to create inline citations from the existing list of full references. Maybe something along the lines of.. "For help on how to do this, see WP:CITEX" or something like that. OlEnglish (talk) 01:22, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Please correct the grammar
There are 2 more commas needed in the script, after "unclear" and after "citations": Thank you. --Funandtrvl (talk) 19:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) ...but its sources remain unclear, because it lacks inline citations.
 * 2) ...this article by introducing more precise citations, where appropriate.
 * I disagree that commas are necessary in both of those instances, especially before the "because". Let's see what other editors think before making the change.  --CapitalR (talk) 20:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither comma is needed. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither is needed. First one would be incorrect, I think.Cop 663 (talk) 22:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither is needed. -- OlEnglish (Talk) 19:08, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, I went back and read "Rules for Comma Usage". Sorry about the confusion! --Funandtrvl (talk) 02:36, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Category problem
The template seems to be adding an additional opening parenthetical for the date parameter. For example, shows up in Category:Articles lacking in-text citations from (April 2009, not Category:Articles lacking in-text citations from April 2009. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. --CapitalR (talk) 09:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Rich Farmbrough, 21:28 6 April 2009 (UTC).

redirect
this template does nothing that do. I suggest that it is redirected to Unreferenced --PBS (talk) 21:17, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Unreferenced, article/section has no sources/references/citations given at all
 * Refimprove, article/section has weak or incomplete sources/references/citations


 * Oppose It's very clear what the difference is in the text of the template: This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations . There is a clear distinction there and I find this template to be very useful in those circumstances, and also when there are insufficient inline citations. Do you not make a distinction between general references and in-line citations/footnotes? --  &oelig; &trade; 23:13, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Placement of this template
Hi. I have a question. This template should be placed at the bottom of articles, is that right? I see it placed at the top a lot though, wonder why. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 19:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Officially it's meant to go in the References section, but I don't think putting it at the top is really problematic. Stylistically, I think it looks better at the top anyway. — xDanielx  T/C\R 19:15, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Stylistically I think it looks better at the bottom, I would argue. footnotes is not as crucial as citations missing, and it would be too distracting on top I think. Oleg Alexandrov (talk) 00:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It is equally crucial because the lack of footnotes means that any references provided are useless as explanations of where the article's information is from. Cop 663 (talk) 03:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This template refers to a stylistic problem not a fundamental problem with the article as per NPOV, etc. Therefore to put it at the top of the article, in my mind is to overstate its importance. SHoudl this be relegated instead to the talk page? AndrewRT(Talk) 11:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Same opinion as Cop 663 expressed above. Federico Grigio, alias Nahraana (talk) 05:24, 18 May 2008 (UTC)


 * No, the references are not useless, they just are not as easy to use. But this is a wiki, and there is no requirement that one group of editors do more work to make less work for another group of editors. And many editors strongly object to other editors who want to tell them they must. This is why this template is controversial, and it should not go at the top, except in extreme cases, for example with a controversial subject. Otherwise this template could be applied to most articles on WP, and that would not be an improvement. If you would like to see inline citations on an article, then read the references, and add them. But don't run around doing drive-by tagging. That's not helpful. Dhaluza (talk) 13:49, 28 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Helping readers up front at the top by warning them that nothing may actually be referenced is very important. An article without inline references (and in that case almost always without page numbers), so readers don't know what is an what isn't referenced - is more dangerous than an article without even vague references and/or external links. -- Jeandré, 2009-04-21t21:29z

After a recent edit of SmackBot a discussion was started on User_talk:Rich_Farmbrough where a few editors have also voiced there opinions that this template should be at the top of the page. This is also my opinion.

Personally, I feel so because that is the standarised place for most maintenance templates, and because that is the most visible place, that is, the place where the template is most likely to influence an editor into action.

In view of the large number of editors who disagree with the present text of the docpage "copy and paste into the references section of the article" I will remove that line from the docpage. On the other hand, I also see no consensus that the right place is at the top of the article. Therefore, I will not add anything back in its place. Debresser (talk) 18:46, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but I haven't read the whole discussion. I am here because someone posted a message to my talk page. I'll be back in action at Saturday. I think no footnotes should be placed in the references section to distinguish it from unreferenced. An article may be referenced but no specific sentences on it to be referenced. That inline references are missing is not a major issue comparing to unreferenced articles. Take for example articles about medicines or deceases. The same goes for articles incorporating texts from public domain sources. Moreover, the placement of the tag indicates where the inline references should appear. To conclude, I think the documentation should stay as is and start correcting no footnotes or by moving them in the correct place or by adding on the top the correct template. Before any change the staff has to be advertised more. Thanks. -- Magioladitis (talk) 04:49, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm with AndrewRT, Dhaluza, Magioladitis and others that this does not belong at the top of the article but in the references section. It is not reporting a "fatal" problem, and the suggestion that references are "useless" if they are not inline is exaggeratory. I also concur with Debresser that there isn't consensus to put it in the refs section either. It should be left (as should most WP decisions - our template documentation is often far too prescriptive) to editor discretion on a case-by-case basis. — SMcCandlish  Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ  Contribs. 15:05, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm late to the discussion but I think we need to reopen it. The appropriate place for these maintenance tags is neither the top of the page (where it is very disruptive to readers) nor the bottom of the page (where it is merely less disruptive) but on the article's Talk page. Talk is explicitly for discussions about how to improve the page - how to improve the layout, organization and readability of the content. And that is all that this template asks for - not more or different references, just better organization of the ones that are already here. Warning boxes on the article page itself should be reserved for the most serious concerns - templates like Unreferenced. Templates like this one should be posted on Talk until the page is improved. Rossami (talk) 19:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

Interwiki: simple
editprotected Please could somebody add. —Sladen (talk) 12:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Interwiki links for templates should go on the template documentation page (if one exists) as they are generally not protected. I have added it (see here) this time.  Feel free to do this yourself in the future. - Rjd0060 (talk) 14:06, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Clarification
I would like to remove "related reading or external links" from the template so that it would read "This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations." This is more in line with our policy on verification. External links and related reading aren't supposed to back up the material within the article, they are supposed to provide further information beyond the article's content. Only references should be used to footnote information. I believe this is in-line with current community consensus so I don't think this change needs any discussion.  Them From  Space  02:39, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Disagree. Your argument holds for the perfect article, where nothing in the "further reading" or "external links" sections should be considered for integrating into the article as inline references, but does not hold for the majority of articles where that state of affairs does not obtain. Often, editors without the time or inclination to add inline citations will add books or links to websites that could be used appropriately as references. See this article for example. Should consensus to the contrary emerge, you can stick the edit request back up, but for now, I have disabled it. Regards,  Skomorokh   06:56, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree with Themfromspace. It will bring it in line with unreferenced. The point about this type of template it carries two pieces of information. The first is a warning to a reader that not all the information in the article may be accurate. The second piece of information is editorial and is there to help editors fix the precieved problem because we (editors) check for accuracy by either checking the text against the references and adding in-line cations or use citation needed as laid out in WP:PROVIT. At no point do we consider further reading or external links to be references. Indeed during the verification process that this template is likely to initiate, experience shows that it is more likely that books in the references section will be move out into the further reading section than the other way around. -- PBS (talk) 02:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)


 * A consensus is not one comment,with a disagreement and one agreement months later, "external links" and "further reading" has been included on this template for years. It is was posted on tens of thousands of articles to impart that message. If anyone would like separate templates to ask people to format external links and references as references then you are free to make new ones.  I am revering the change by User:Philip Baird Shearer as consensus does not exist for the change.  Jeepday (talk) 08:35, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Jeepday about how to interpret the word "consensus". This was not even a bold edit, just a non-consensus one. Debresser (talk) 08:58, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * There is little point discussing whether or not there was a consensus when I made the edit (as consensus also has to do with interpreting the wider consensus based on policy and guidelines).  In my opinion "related reading or external links" do not make references. If there are no references in a reference (or similar named section) then it is unreferenced There could be two pages of " related further reading" and "external links" and the article would still be unrefrenced. In this context external links does not mean references and if there are only external links what is needed is references.(If the external links are cited either inline or in a reference section then they are not usually called "external links"). This template only comes into play if the provided references (which may after all be provided using Harvard notation) are not clear. -- PBS (talk) 10:12, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Philip Baird Shearer.  The reason I requested the change over half a year ago is because I often see this tag placed in external links sections where it doesn't belong.  The template implies that external links sections are to be used for sourcing, and this goes against our external links guidelines that point out quite clearly that they aren't. External links sections aren't meant to contain inline citations or material used for referencing purposes, although this tag implies that they should. Now I see that my initial assumption of consensus was quite mistaken, so I think some sort of RfC might be the way to move forward, if anybody cares enough about the wording to start one.  Them  From  Space  22:25, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Them, are you saying that per external links guidelines anything that has an external link can't be used as a reference, or are you saying that if it is in the external links section that it does not qualify as a reference? JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:27, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * For clarity let us call an individual "external link" a "web citation". Web citations not used as an in-line citation or in the ==References== section are not references, so if it is in an ==External links== section then it does not qualify as a reference. (see also WP:ELPOINTS) -- PBS (talk) 05:45, 23 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah Ha; I think I am beginning to understand the argument! While the web citation may in fact support the article and have the potential for being an excellent valid reference (or not), it can not be considered a reference because it's only usage is in the external links section of the article.  Please correct me if that is not point that we are discussing. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 14:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It is the point we are discussing and the reason for the (proposed) change to the wording. -- PBS (talk) 21:59, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, so glad I finally understand your point. I can see why you make it. Here are my thoughts.
 * The proposed change to remove external links and related reading essentially makes this template the same as Citations missing, which is not the message that No footnotes is used to convey.
 * No footnotes is on thousands of articles in short to say "Hey looks like there are good references in the external links, further reading or reference section; but they don't do much to support the article content because they are not citations. Please click on some of these links and learn how to make them into good references and this article better."
 * There are 281,579 articles tagged as completely unreferenced, which does not include No footnotes as these articles in Category:Articles lacking in-text citations which only has 28,672 articles.
 * Speaking as someone who has looked at a lot of unreferenced articles, and found lots of stuff to delete there is a big difference between an article that is really without references and an article that maybe technical unreferenced (this is a POV based on a guideline and is not supported by the policy WP:V) because there are no citations or there is no reference section. No footnotes should be on articles that meet at least the basic requirements of WP:V in that there is actually something on the article supporting the article content, but it needs work to come up to encyclopedia expectations.
 * The body of work to work required to improve an article with No footnotes is much easier then an article with unref.
 * My concern is that if the change you are suggesting is made, then -
 * The intent of the message that given when the tag was added will be destroyed
 * There would not be a valid template message to convey the message intended by the current template
 * Without a valid template to convey the intended message then unref would be used inappropriately.
 * The project WikiProject Unreferenced articles was started after lengthy debates and consensus on what constituted an unreferenced article. Template talk:Unreferenced#Project Proposal (this is the summation, Many of the actual discussions took place over several talk pages and times) proper formatting of the reference and placement in the reference section was and is not an indicator of meeting WP:V, except in the case of material that has been challenged or is likely to be challenged.
 * Jeepday (talk) 02:41, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * "(this is a POV based on a guideline and is not supported by the policy WP:V) because there are no citations or there is no reference section. " it may be a POV but it is the general consensus as expressed in Citing sources, External links, Layout, and until you raised the issue here I have never seen another editor who disagrees with it. PBS (talk) 06:16, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Where is it that you think there is support for your point of view that "No footnotes should be on articles that meet at least the basic requirements of WP:V in that there is actually something on the article supporting the article content" where in WP:V is there any support for that assumption. WP:V is mainly about describing what a reliable source is. The WP:PROVIT section describes how in certain cases there is a requirement for inline citations. No where does it describe how to implement general citations. That is left to the three guidelines I listed above (Citing sources, External links, Layout) and they do not support you view that external links meet "the basic requirements of WP:V" as the basic requirement is that sources exist for the text not that they exist in the article. So please show me a policy or guideline that supports you point of view about footnotes: "the basic requirements of WP:V in that there is actually something on the article supporting the article content" -- PBS (talk) 06:16, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Citations missing is not the same as this template. CM is closer to refimprove.as the list of items in the References section are called "general citations" (personally I prefer to call them references and "inline citations" citations. But the current wording in WP:CITE has called them that for some time)


 * It will not destroy the scene that this template should convey as currently it is not correct, as web citations in an external links section are not references as they are neither inline or general citations and as such can not support the content of the article any more than sources that are not included in the article. -- PBS (talk) 06:16, 24 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It is pointless to argue circles. We can each find some disagreement in the others position and nothing is going to change that.


 * As I understand your position, the objection to the content in sections "related reading" or "external links" being given the status of sources as implied by the template message "but its sources remain unclear". Perhaps this wording change?


 * This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its remains un-cited because it lacks inline citations. Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations where appropriate.


 * JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 10:55, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * How about: This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but it needs footnotes to indicate where the article content can be verified. Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations where appropriate. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by Active Banana (talk • contribs) 20:34, 27 August 2010


 * Minor change to suggestion above by Active Banana: "This includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but it needs  footnotes to indicate where the article content can be verified. Please improve this article by introducing precise citations where appropriate ."  Changing "more precise citations" to "precise citations".  Rational being they are not citations if they are not cited.  And adding links Jeepday (talk) 11:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

There are problems with the above. A list in a references section are considered to be verification for the article and are considered to be citations (but not inline citations) see WP:CITE and Verification methods. So to say "but it needs footnotes to indicate where the article content can be verified." Articles can be verified through the list in the References section. Again all that is needed is the removal of "related reading or external links" which are not intended to be used to verify articles. -- PBS (talk) 12:05, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I hear what you are saying, but it changes the meaning of the tag. The tag has been used on thousands of articles to say that there is content in the related reading or external links that can and should be used for adding citations.  As I recall in the old days anything that was an external link was put in that section even if it was what we would now consider a supporting reference.  Additionally the content that might be used to referencing the article might be in a section called Notes or Sources.  Can you think of way to change the wording that removes all reference to what section the content and remains appropriate for Category:Articles lacking in-text citations? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeepday (talk • contribs) 12:44, 28 August 2010


 * I been around here for a long time, and in the good old days, far more often than not, no citations of any sort were given. In which case it is impossible to tell whether in such articles if external links were meant to be external links as we understand them today or references. But for example when I made this edit on 18 May 2004 added and external link section and it was for the same reason we have an external links section today. Before the criticisms of 2005-2006 and the refocus on quality articles the need for citations was not given a high priority. For example compare WP:V Jan 2005 bit by the end of 2005. At the start of 2005 WP:V was not a policy, but by the end of the year it had taken on a format that would be recognisable to editors today. However two edits to WP:CITE introduction (2003) prominence (2004) clearly stated that "References should be collected at the end of the article under a ==References== heading;". So if people were citing information as early as 2003 the guidance was to collect them together for printing purposes in a list in a ==References== section. -- PBS (talk) 00:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The use of footnotes above is imprecise. In most style guides, footnotes are the reference list at the end of a work, whereas in-text citations correspond to the full entries found in the reference list. Manual of Style (footnotes) refers to a specific method of in-text citations and reference listing. Please continue to use inline citations. ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 12:08, 28 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Good point on in line citations and footnotes Gadget850. Jeepday to answer your question "Can you think of way to change the wording that removes all reference to what section the content...". Yes! Change the link under list of references to use WP:FNNR "This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations." -- PBS (talk) 00:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)


 * How many articles is nofootnotes on that does not have a list of references? JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * No idea. But as it is largely a maintenance box (and maintenance boxes should I think be on the talk page (but that is another discussion)), altering it is not affecting the accuracy content of an article, and in the long run those mislabelled will be altered to unreferenced which is what they are -- and which carries an important piece of information for the reader of an article (that it is unreferenced and may not be reliable). -- PBS (talk) 22:43, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Who would change to the tags unreferenced, refimprove, or some other appropriate tag ?
 * Two points
 * It is inappropriate to change the work of others to become inaccurate, and leave it for others to clean up.
 * It can't be a maintenance box and reader warning on the talk page all at the same time.
 * JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 10:53, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

I will agree with ThemfromSpace, Further reading and External links are separate from references and are judged by different standards. Including them in this template can confuse editors. It is possible to go even further: this template in its entirety is not based on any policy or guideline. From what I can gather no policy is violated by deleting it. Correct me if I'm wrong. Lambanog (talk) 10:05, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Deleting it would be difficult because a bot would have to run through all the pages currently using it and remove it. We could redirect it to more footnotes (whack a rat), or just alter the wording as has been previously suggested. -- PBS (talk) 02:19, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I think it is time remove "related reading or external links" anyone care to make any points as to why this should not be done? -- PBS (talk) 23:25, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, because the template is used to ask contributors to use content that may be in the "related reading or external links" to cite references. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 10:49, 25 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Unlike References, neither "further reading" or "external links" contain sources used in the article. So they are not relevant to this template, if one is not going to distinguish between "References", "further reading" and "external links" one might as well just have the header "This article's sources remain unclear because it lacks in-line citations." and leave it at that. Which guideline do you think justifies the inclusion of "related reading or external links"? -- PBS (talk) 04:14, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I wonder if this falls into a question of semantics having to do with the words
 * Source
 * Reference
 * Citation
 * Verifiability requires that "All material in Wikipedia articles must be attributable to a reliable published source", or in other words there should be a source for all content even if it is not listed as a reference. It goes on to say that some content should "be attributed to a reliable source in the form of an inline citation".  This template currently says "sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations".  If we assume good faith on the part of contributors who wrote the article and added external links or further reading, then we must assume those items are sources that could be used to attribute the article content.  Above we agreed that "While the web citation may in fact support the article and have the potential for being an excellent valid reference (or not), it can not be considered a reference because it's only usage is in the external links section of the article".  This in no way precludes it from being a source for the article content (in many cases it truly is the one and only source see Copyright violations), it just says it is not used a reference with inline citations.  Because this template does not say that the article is referenced or not (i.e. has inline citations) it is addressing the core policy of WP:V indicating the article appears to have sources in "list of references, related reading or external links" but lacks references "(inline citations)" Which I think we all agree should be in the references (and/or note, which is different topic) sections.  So WP:V justifies the inclusion of "related reading or external links" in the Template:No footnotes.


 * PBS said "Unlike References, neither "further reading" or "external links" contain sources used in the article." which would be counter to expectations of Wikipedia. If there is further related reading on a brief (relatively) encyclopedia article, then all or most of the content in the article should be attributable to the more detailed content in the link or book.  If this is not the case then the unrelated link or book mention should be removed.  A look at WP:ELYES clearly indicates that links should be to a primary source (i.e. the subject of the article which without doubt could be a source, or includes more detail then is practical in a Wikipedia article. I can not even imagine how there could be an example of "further reading" or "external links" that should be included on an article and could not be used as source for some of the article content.  No footnotes is all about asking editors to use the items listed to add inline citation, at which point they should be removed from the "further reading" or "external links" as they would be part of the reference section now.


 * There are the words "by introducing more precise citations" in the template, which could lead one to believe that content "related reading or external links" works as a citation or reference rather then a source or more detailed information. Could it be that part this is causing confusion? JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 16:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * You have taken the policy V as far as it goes, but I think you have not given enough weight the wording of the relevant guidelines:
 * Citing sources specifically the sections Source, reference, citation and General reference The first defines what a reference and and a citation is while the latter specifically says "A general reference is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not displayed as an inline citation."
 * layout specifically WP:FNNR "These sections [Notes and References] present (1) citations that verify the information in the article," and WP:FURTHERREADING "A bulleted list, usually alphabetized, of a reasonable number of editor-recommended publications that do not appear elsewhere in the article and were not used to verify article content." (my emphasis).
 * External links You have mentioned it above but seemed to have missed the paragraph in the lead that say "This guideline concerns external links that are not citations to sources supporting article content. If the website or page to which you want to link includes information that is not yet a part of the article, consider using it as a source for the article, and citing it." (my emphases)
 * You say above "If there is further related reading on a brief (relatively) encyclopedia article, then all or most of the content in the article should be attributable to the more detailed content in the link or book. If this is not the case then the unrelated link or book mention should be removed." and "I can not even imagine how there could be an example of "further reading" or "external links" that should be included on an article and could not be used as source for some of the article content." Let me give you an example I recently made this edit to Operation Market Garden. The bibliography I placed in "Further reading" will never be used as a citation but it is extremely useful as further reading. Entries in further reading and external links can be to all sorts of things not used as references. For example links to primary sources, links to bibliographies to mention just two which will never be cited as references. There are also other entries that go into external links and further reading that will never be cited because they are not in themselves reliable sources but they contain information that comes from reliable sources. There may also be other works which are of interest, and while it is possible in the future that text relating to their content may mean that they become citations and need to be moved, their placement in these two sections indicate that they are not citable sources for the current content of the article because if they were they would be in the general references section.  -- PBS (talk) 18:30, 29 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If the article Operation Market Garden was an unrefrenced stub with the opening "Operation Market Garden (17–25 September 1944) was an Allied military operation, fought in the Netherlands and Germany in the Second World War. It was the largest airborne operation of all time." and only a section marked external links or further reading with a link to http://www.history.army.mil/books/70-7_19.htm the the link to "Chapter 19;The Decision To Launch Operation MARKET-GARDEN" would be a very usable source to support the article.  The opening of chapter 19 "Was the decision to launch the largest airborne attack of World War II right or wrong?" fully supports the notability statement of the content, it appears to be a reliable source.  My statement "I can not even imagine how there could be an example of "further reading" or "external links" that should be included on an article and could not be used as source for some of the article content." remains viable.  JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:05, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I was using example of the bibliography as a retort you your statement "I can not even imagine how there could be an example of "further reading" or "external links" that should be included on an article and could not be used as source for some of the article content". -- PBS (talk) 05:20, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Template talk:No footnotes/Operation Market Garden, stub article on the topic sourced completely from the further reading. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 10:58, 3 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes but the Operation Market Garden article is not sourced from the Bibliography and the Bibliography will never be used in the article, so it will remain in further reading and never be cited. As it happens that particular bibliography has some text at the start that you could use in your stub article but replace that bibliography it with this one and even on a stub it would remain in further reading. -- PBS (talk) 21:30, 7 November 2010 (UTC)


 * or put it between and use at as an inline citation as it is the source of the stub Template talk:No footnotes/Operation Market Garden. Will you let go of the desire to remove "related reading or external links" from the template or must we argue in circles for eternity? Jeepday (talk) 00:24, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I there is no consensus yet, so I see no reason for this to be dropped, particularly as the majority of people who have commented in this section have been in favour of removing the phrase or in one case the whole template and to date only one other editor supports you position. One of your objections was that you could not imagine an entry in further reading or external link that could not be used as a source, I have provided you with one. I could also provide others but I thought one example would be enough. you wrote above "we must assume those items are sources that could be used to attribute the article content" no we do not have to assume that as there are lots of things placed in "Further reading" and "external links" that are not sources for an article. I think we should now put that objection aside and look at the other points I raised. I think you have not given enough weight the wording of the relevant guidelines:
 * Citing sources specifically the sections Source, reference, citation and General reference The first defines what a reference and and a citation is while the latter specifically says "A general reference is a citation to a reliable source that supports content, but is not displayed as an inline citation."
 * layout specifically WP:FNNR "These sections [Notes and References] present (1) citations that verify the information in the article," and WP:FURTHERREADING "A bulleted list, usually alphabetized, of a reasonable number of editor-recommended publications that do not appear elsewhere in the article and were not used to verify article content." (my emphasis).
 * External links You have mentioned it above but seemed to have missed the paragraph in the lead that say "This guideline concerns external links that are not citations to sources supporting article content. If the website or page to which you want to link includes information that is not yet a part of the article, consider using it as a source for the article, and citing it." (my emphases)
 * -- PBS (talk) 01:01, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * You misrepresent the facts and you do not seem to be having this discussion in good faith. You appear to be engaged in mission to with a single goal, "there is no consensus yet". I refuse to continue debating with you. For the record at this point there have been 8 contributors to this discussion who appear to be split evenly on the use of "related reading or external links" in this template.  JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)




 * Themfromspace ||support||Proposer
 * Skomorokh ||oppose
 * PBS ||support
 * Jeepday ||oppose
 * Debresser ||No comment on the issue||
 * Active Banana ||Oppose? ||Suggested a change but it would have kept FR and EL.
 * Gadget850 ||No comment on the issue||
 * Lambanog ||Support ||suggests going further and deleting
 * }
 * Debresser ||No comment on the issue||
 * Active Banana ||Oppose? ||Suggested a change but it would have kept FR and EL.
 * Gadget850 ||No comment on the issue||
 * Lambanog ||Support ||suggests going further and deleting
 * }
 * Lambanog ||Support ||suggests going further and deleting
 * }
 * }


 * Is that a fair summary? And as I said there is no consensus yet. Building a consensus is the point of a discussion on a talk page. As I said above I think you have not given enough weight the wording of the relevant guidelines, because a consensus consists of more than just a local agreement relevant weighting should also be given to the relevant policies and guidelines. -- PBS (talk) 22:57, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that the existing wording should be retained, because most editors don't actually know that they should list a general reference to a website under ==References== instead of under ==External links==, and this text helps them figure that out.
 * Also, I think that the "list of references" should link WP:General references, and that "related reading" line should link WP:FURTHERREADING.
 * Finally, ThemFromSpace might choose to use More footnotes or Citations missing, which already contain language very similar to what he proposes here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:15, 12 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I like both of the link selections suggested by WhatamIdoing JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:43, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

More clarification
A line should be added to hint at the fact that this template is useless without pointing out which fact in the article needs referencing. Simply putting this template on articles without footnotes (which is frequently done without further comments) isn't very helpful so we should add a hint to the editor like:

"If you have just labeled this page as needing footnotes, please add after the specific fact in the article that you would like to see referenced."

De728631 (talk) 21:13, 13 May 2011 (UTC)


 * If citation needed is used appropriately then No footnotes would seem unnecessary. I think it is unproductive to suggest that both tags be on on the same article. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 10:48, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Then please tell me where you would place inline references when only No footnotes and no other requests or notes have been left by a critical editor? Because as I wrote above, in many cases citation needed is never used anywhere inline but the editor simply puts "no footnotes" on top of the page and is gone.
 * If you request footnotes you should provide information where exactly such inline references are needed. Therefore I think the two templates complement one another instead of being mutually exclusive. De728631 (talk) 18:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The note at the top that the footnotes are missing is useful to readers in its own right. If there's no note and no references, it's very easy for a casual reader to miss the simple fact that they could just be reading a random essay, as opposed to an encyclopedic article. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 19:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, no. "This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations". That is the current template text of "no footnotes" so it actually suggests that references are given but certain specific facts remain unclear and need inline references. However, the template alone does not say where. What you meant is unreferenced which in turn is very useful on its own right. De728631 (talk) 21:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)


 * No, that's exactly it. The references section may well exist, but the rest of the text could easily be a random essay. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 21:13, 18 June 2011 (UTC)


 * There is a logical fallacy in the argument for changing this template's text. More than one, actually. 1. There is no need to clarify which statements need inline references, because these are the same ones that are referenced by the general references. That is precisely what this templates tries to convey: use inline references instead of general ones. 2. We use a general Unreferenced tag to show an article has no references, instead of using dozens of Citation needed tags, because there is a general rule which statements need sourcing: those that could be controversial or disputed. Same here. Debresser (talk) 21:44, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The problem with your reasoning is though that certain general references cannot easily be attributed by the uninvolved editor who stumbles across this template on an article, namely those references without a weblink or when they are in a language other than English. You'll need the original author to fix that and they may not even remember which reference from the general list applies to which fact. It's very much easier to search new, additional sources for specific facts and put them inline where they are needed. And there will of course always be disagreement over what is actually controversial. That's why I suggest that we provide a hint to editors to mark what they think needs citations. De728631 (talk) 22:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Style tweaks to referencing templates
Please see Wikipedia talk:template messages/Cleanup for a discussion relating to the styling of unreferenced, refimprove, no footnotes and more footnotes. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) - talk 15:07, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Wording when "section" (or other custom wording) is present
The form produces the message "This section includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations."

This doesn't make sense. Sections never include a list of references, related reading or external links. What is meant is something like the following (where I've underlined changes): "This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but the sources of this section remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please improve this section by introducing more precise citations." Peter coxhead (talk) 10:54, 23 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Good catch. To stick with the language, I think your modified message is much more precise. De728631 (talk) 15:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok, there's a version of the template with the changed wording at User:Peter_coxhead/Test/T0 and tests of it at User:Peter_coxhead/Test. So if you're happy with the changes, could you or some other admin please make the necessary changes to this protected template. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:55, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Please see above. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:25, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 23:49, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Small further fix
Apologies; I hadn't quite fixed the interaction between specifying "section", "table", etc. and specifying "BLP=yes". This line:
 * | Biographies of living persons

should be
 * | biographical article

otherwise it still produces "This section includes a list of references, related reading or external links" when "BLP=yes" is set. Peter coxhead (talk) 21:21, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * ✅ I've updated the template with the additional fix. EVula // talk // &#9775;  // 06:46, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Jitter problem
This template may be the source of a jitter problem (perhaps an infinitely repeating loop?) that I encountered at Jérôme Bignon. After I removed this template, the problem went away. The jitter still occurs for me with this revision. (This problem may possibly be browser-dependent. I'm using Safari 5.1.6 on a Mac.) --Robert.Allen (talk) 00:33, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm unsure what the source of this problem was. In the meantime, I updated my computer's software and of course rebooted in the process. Something seems to have fixed it, since the problem has gone away. --Robert.Allen (talk) 01:18, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Removal of tags without adding any inline citations
Should editors be removing the "Template:No footnotes" tags without actually adding in in-line citations? Does anyone have an opinion one way or the other?
 * The template is there for a reason, but I'd say it depends on the article. You don't really need footnotes for short stubs where a general reference has been cited. On the other hand the template shouldn't be removed from larger articles that could need better sourcing. De728631 (talk) 16:17, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree with the previous editor. Just wanted to make clear that "No footnotes" should only be used when there are absolutely no footnotes. Otherwise we have More footnotes or Refimprove. Debresser (talk) 17:05, 4 November 2012 (UTC)
 * We have a special citation template for articles that are based on a single source: "Category:Attribution templates". But when we have articles such as Loren B. Sessions where it is bigger than a stub and uses multiple sources, and those sources are given as external links, there is no way to know which fact came from which source. I add the tag to know which articles I should switch to inline when I get time. Compare it to Stephen H. Wendover where I switched to the inline format. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 23:30, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Best tag for suggesting conversion of "general" references to inline references?
I'm looking for the best tag to put at the top of a long list of general references to suggest that inlining the references would improve the article. This tag is close but it deals with the text whereas I want to tag the referneces. Is anyone aware of a better tag for my purpose? Jason Quinn (talk) 19:46, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Is Citation style what you are looking for? JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 19:53, 19 November 2012 (UTC)


 * That's more general than I was hoping for. Jason Quinn (talk) 04:09, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * There is also Refimprove. At URA there is a list of several tags and suggestions for when each is most appropriate.  Additionally each templates template page (i.e. Template:Refimprove) has a liste of related tags and is listed as being in a categories it is in (i.e. Category:Citation and verifiability maintenance templates) which can also help you track down what ever you are looking for. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 11:52, 20 November 2012 (UTC)


 * You should want to tag the text, because the whole point of inlining references is that we don't force people to scroll down to the bottom and wade endlessly through a bland list of sources trying to corroborate a statement in the text. IOW it's the text that has the real problem. If the article has sufficient inline reference, and in addition to that a long list of sources, you probably just want to rename that section "Further reading" or similar. --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 12:16, 20 November 2012 (UTC)

Bot-type addition of the tag to a large number of articles
I’ve noticed that one person has been manually adding the tag in a bot-type manner to thousands of pages. The tag will no doubt remain on the pages indefinitely as no one else will add the requested citations and I would therefore question whether this is desirable. Any thoughts? (Ukgeofan) 21:48, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * You have posted the same question on three template talk pages I suggest that any replies about this issue are made at Template talk:Refimprove -- PBS (talk) 23:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Consistency between template name and description in template box
The template is called No footnotes but in the box that appears when the template is added, there is only a reference to 'inline citations'. For consistency, shouldn't the text in the box or the name of the template change? Eldumpo (talk) 21:19, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Probably the name should change to something like Template:No inline citations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:29, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * To the contrary. This template is used when there are references, but not in the form of footnotes. In the text of the template "inline citations" should be changed to "footnotes". Debresser (talk) 17:05, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Before any changes are made to name or "inline citations" the wording "related reading or external links," should be removed. -- PBS (talk) 17:49, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Why? Debresser (talk) 17:50, 9 March 2013 (UTC)


 * No idea, seems like a different discussion. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 14:48, 11 March 2013 (UTC)


 * See above. De728631 (talk) 17:05, 11 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Because the contents of "related reading or external links," do not have to contain reliable sources and the statement implies that they are, so it is a more pressing issue than changing the name of this template. -- PBS (talk) 14:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * True, they aren't required to be reliable sources, but that doesn't mean that they aren't reliable sources in every case—especially if you have a "helpful" editor changing ==References== headings to ==External links== simply because they don't know any better. (I probably did the same thing when I was a newbie.)  WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:02, 27 April 2013 (UTC)


 * They sources listed in external links may or may not be reliable, but the wording "related reading or external links" implies that they are and that is undesirable. -- PBS (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)


 * If at all, the template's name should be changed, since "inline citations" is the generic term for the desired type of references. Although I've rarely seen it here at WP, you can as well source a fact by writing something like: The sun is a huge hot ball (Smith, 2005). You don't really need footnotes to attribute sources to a specific statement in the text. De728631 (talk) 17:11, 11 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I Concur, I posted a note at Template_talk:Unreferenced to see if any further discussion or ideas might be generated. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 10:32, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I would have to think hard if I were requested to provide an "inline quotation", but if asked for a footnote, I'd understand what is expected from me. So I propose to apply the Keep It Simple rule and say "footnotes" in the text of Template:No footnotes. Debresser (talk) 18:41, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The style mentioned by De728631 17:11, 11 March 2013 is parenthetical referencing. You can see it in action at Actuary, which has exactly zero footnotes, yet is a featured article. -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:22, 12 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Looks like no consensus for a rename. Jeepday (talk) 22:42, 15 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I came here to point out this error and found that others have already pointed it out as well. The template title and its text currently contain a basic logical discrepancy. This could easily be fixed. The title can stay the same, the text just needs editing. I am going to go fix it myself, because this is Wikipedia, after all. — ¾-10 21:58, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, I just found out that the reason no one has fixed it is because it's locked to non-admins. — ¾-10 22:02, 16 March 2013 (UTC)
 * What would you change it to? Jeepday (talk) 23:23, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

Actually I've changed my mind. Logically, there should be two templates. The one that is trying to be about a lack of inline citations needs to avoid the obvious illogic mentioned above (that is, treating parenthetical-referencing-without-ref-tags as if it doesn't exist, when it obviously does). And the simple way to do that is to name that template "Template:No inline citations". The other template, the one that is trying to encourage the use of footnotes (using ref tags), could have the name "Template:No footnotes", and its text would be something like "Please help improve this article by converting its non-marked-up inline citations to marked-up ones." — ¾-10 23:17, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * This template should be retired (by making it a redirect) because there is no need for a template specifically about footnotes. If an article already has inline parenthetical-referencing then putting this template on such an article could be seen as a breach of WP:CITEVAR "if you believe it is inappropriate for the needs of the article, seek consensus for a change on the talk page." So there is need for only one template requesting inline citations. Requesting "citations" implies inline citations and not general references because WP:V requests inline citations (in WP:CHALLENGE) and the guideline WP:CITE depreciates general references makes the point "The disadvantage of using general references alone is that text–source integrity is lost, unless the article is very short". -- PBS (talk) 14:11, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Requesting citations does not imply inline citations. WP:CHALLENGE does not require inline citations. Only for a) quotations, b) material challenged, c) material likely to be challenged, and d) material that lacked a source and was removed. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 22:41, 27 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I support the proposed name change. This template gets used a lot, and we do not specifically require the use of ref tags (confusingly called "footnotes" in our guidelines, even though there are a lot of other ways to create what would be called footnotes in the real world, as WP:Inline citations explains).  WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:02, 27 April 2013 (UTC)


 * I always use the redirect inline citations to use this tag anyway. On related note, I can't believe we are really doing this again - haggling over subtleties in cleanup tags names. *facepalm* --Joy &#91;shallot&#93; (talk) 07:38, 28 April 2013 (UTC)

sources remain unclear
The template says "its sources remain unclear" (emphasis mine). I'm not a native speaker of English, but I think we mean to say that the sources are clear but what is unclear is the associated material. In other words, shouldn't it say "its associated material is unclear"? After all, when you have a list of references but no in-line citations, you have the sources but don't know the associated material. If we want to keep using sources, then "its" should be changed. Again, I'm not a native speaker of English, but this is how I see it. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 13:12, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 7 November 2014
Please replace: with: as I believe that a link to instructions for new users to understand how to add citations may improve the quantity and overall quality of citations in articles on Wikipedia. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 16:54, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please make your requested changes to the template's sandbox first; see WP:TESTCASES. please don't paste code blobs, they're difficult to compare and test. -- Red rose64 (talk) 19:59, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * and the testcases page has been fixed. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 20:16, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * So apart from the pointless capitalisation of the first letter in two non-visible page names, it's adding one link (why is a link to Help:Referencing for beginners necessary when Citing sources is linked in the previous sentence? If a link is necessary, wouldn't Inline citation be better, per WP:EGG?) and changing one word. That word changes the meaning of the sentence, so Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template.. -- Red rose64 (talk) 21:29, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the Help:Referencing for beginners is a better target for such a link because it is more likely to be first time editors and it will be easier for them to understand than Inline citation. Also, the word change is to clarify that we are not asking them to add 100 more references to the bottom of the page, we are asking them to add more inline citations to the text, which is the whole purpose of the template. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 15:50, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

"related reading or external links"
With apologies in advance to User:Joy and others who may not "believe we are really doing this again". The following is a continuation of the 2009-2010 discussion, the 2012  discussion, and the 2013  discussion. The main participants of those discussions were User:PBS and User:Jeepday. Even though PBS was probably a bit too pushy, I don't think his conduct was "trollish" and I disagree with the assessment that he did "not seem to be having [the] discussion in good faith". I am another editor who has difficulty accepting the (location of the) "related reading or external links" phrase in this template. My suggestion is as follows. I would like to alter the &lt;300 articles that transclude No inline citations to use No footnotes, so we can start using No inline citations and No footnotes can be deprecated. First of all, parenthetical (author-date) referencing is also a form of inline citation. Secondly, No footnotes has been used for years and by not replacing it but instead deprecating it, its perceived spirit remains intact; that "there is content in the related reading or external links that can and should be used". Thirdly, when creating No inline citations we will move the "related reading or external links" phrase into a separate sentence; one that states that if such sections exist they may contain sources that are reliable enough to be used as inline references. This tackles the problem that No footnotes appears to imply that the material currently in those sections are (reliable) references. Please let me know whether you support or oppose this proposal. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 22:41, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you made a mistake in the text above, swapping the names of the templates. Could you please check and fix this? Debresser (talk) 20:15, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * No, the text is as I meant it to be. No footnotes should not be changed but should be deprecated. We can start using No inline citations instead, which will be similar but with the changes I outlined above. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 20:47, 28 October 2014 (UTC)
 * You said "I would like to alter the <300 articles that transclude No inline citations to use No footnotes". Are you sure you didn't swap the name sof the templates here?
 * I have no problem with deprecation. I am not sure I understand what new text you would propose precisely. Could you please write the new proposed text here? Debresser (talk) 00:43, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * To keep the exact spirit of the text currently used in those <300 articles intact, we need to make sure the template they use is No footnotes instead of No inline citations, before we create a (new) No inline citations that is worded differently. As for the new proposed text, I would like put it together in consultation with you and other editors. What I would like to know first is whether other editors, in particular User:PBS and User:Jeepday, support or oppose the proposal to keep No footnotes as it is but deprecate it in favor of a new No inline citations template that will have the "related reading or external links" phrase in a separate sentence. All this for the reasons I explained: a) parenthetical (author-date) referencing is also a form of inline citation and the new template name does not single out footnotes, b) by not replacing the old template but instead deprecating it, the old template's perceived spirit remains intact in articles where it is being used, and c) the new template will explain how sections such as "related reading or external links" may contain sources that are reliable enough to be used as inline references, instead of mentioning it in one breath with sections that are actually meant to contain references. I could write the exact proposed text here, but before we venture into that sensitive zone, I'm curious as to whether this could be a way forward at all. I'm glad you wrote you for one have no problem with deprecation. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 11:08, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * I am not entirely sure what you are proposing. The name of the template does not really matter, as they both say the same thing.  WHat is it that you want the message to say?  As Debresser has suggested can you post your proposed message? JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 16:41, 29 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Currently, No inline citations redirects to No footnotes. My proposal includes changing No inline citations from a redirect into a new template that is separate from No footnotes. No inline citations will be somewhat different from No footnotes. There are two reasons why the name of the templates (will) matter: 1. footnotes and parenthetical referencing are both forms of inline citations, similar to how red and blue are co-hyponyms of color, and 2. when the templates are worded differently, No inline citations will no longer have the (exact) perceived spirit of No footnotes. I am proposing a change. The result of the change will be that the templates no longer say the same thing, which means the names of the templates will start to matter. I would like to put the new proposed text for No inline citations together in consultation with other editors. What I would like to know first is whether other editors support or oppose my proposal. By reading my proposal carefully, it should be clear what kind of change I am proposing. I will once again explain my proposal. On this talk page, PBS and I have expressed the opinion that we have difficulty accepting the (location of the) "related reading or external links" phrase in the No footnotes template. We believe that, in some instances, No footnotes may appear to imply that the material currently in aforementioned sections are (reliable) references. To tackle this problem, we could start using No inline citations, and move the "related reading or external links" phrase into a separate sentence; one that states that if such sections exist they may contain sources that are reliable enough to be used as inline references. We would deprecate No footnotes in favor of a new No inline citations template. This means that No footnotes remains intact; it remains exactly as it is right now. It has been used for years and we will not replace it in articles where it is currently being used. By not replacing it but instead deprecating it, its perceived spirit remains intact; that, as User:Jeepday put it, "there is content in the related reading or external links that can and should be used". No inline citations is currently being used in &lt;300 articles, and to keep the exact spirit of the text currently used in those articles intact, we need to make sure the template they use is No footnotes instead of No inline citations, before we create a (new) No inline citations that is worded differently. I could write the exact proposed text here, but before we venture into that sensitive zone, I'm curious as to whether this could be a way forward at all. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 13:13, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Requests for comment
This proposal to deprecate No footnotes, and replace it with - a somewhat differently worded - No inline citations, needs (additional) input. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.136.210.153 (talk • contribs) 11:05, 6 November 2014
 * Oppose because, the user using the IP Address 82.136.210.153 is more than just a casual editor, so I suspect that the IP address is being used as a false colour. -- PBS (talk) 08:12, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * PBS, please WP:AGF. Please address the proposal rather than attacking me personally. If you're implying that an RfC started by an IP editor is invalid, that would not be an acceptable thing to say. General note, for the record: I choose to sign my RfC request above with just the date, as is permitted per 2. of Dispute resolution requests/RfC. PBS changed it into a full signature. I undid his edit and pointed to aforementioned section. He has reversed that edit of mine. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 12:12, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * By the way, if there's one person who I thought would have supported this proposal, it was you. You started those threads about what is currently the problem with this template, the exact problem I'm trying to solve via this proposal. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 16:30, 7 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Oppose Not seeing a reason to change anything. JeepdaySock (AKA, Jeepday) 15:20, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * What about the reasons I gave? Can't you at the very least add your views on those, and explain why you think those aren't (good enough) reasons? This template basically says 'this article includes x, y or z, but lacks inline citations; please introduce more precise citations', and y and z are respectively "related reading" and "external links". This gives the impression that whatever is in such section are (reliable) sources; are already citations. According to WP:CS, WP:EL, and basically every related guideline in existence, such sections should not be assumed to contain (reliable) sources. In some cases they can be reformatted as such, but that's not what the current template says. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 16:18, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * We're back to square one. Here I was thinking that I had found a way to keep you - the person who has objected changes to this template since 2009 - happy by not proposing a change of No footnotes itself and thereby keeping its perceived spirit intact. But all you have to say is "Not seeing a reason to change anything." That's some world class reasoning there, gotta love all those arguments and counter-arguments related to the proposal in question. We may as well make it a majority vote and just ignore any substantive discussion. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 16:30, 7 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Considering that No inline citations is a redirect to No footnotes, and the former is a longer wording then the later, I oppose this proposal. There is no reason to use the longer name, and it's not like it is a significantly different template. Seems like a bikeshed proposal to me... — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 23:50, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You write 'considering that x is a redirect to y', but after my proposal this would no longer be the case. The mere fact that you wrote aforementioned phrase shows me that you either did not fully read my proposal or did not understand it properly. Opposing a change because a template name would be seven characters longer isn't a very strong argument, especially considering the possibility to use shortcuts, just like No footnotes has several shortcuts including Nf. Also, you write there is no reason to use the longer name, but as I've explained the longer name is more accurate. Also, it would be a significantly different template because its meaning - perceived spirit - would change, as you can read in various other threads I referenced in my first post. Using a different template name is only part of my proposal. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 02:11, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Apparently the essence of my comment went right over your head. Write the new template before proposing that we switch to it.  That's what sandboxes are for, and I can't imagine anyone excepting your proposal without seeing the replacement.  Maybe the best course of action is to just modify the existing template (use the sandbox and request an edit since it is protected).  My point about not using the longer name (it's already a redirect to no footnotes after all) is that it is very unlikely you are going to convince the community to use a different template name just for the sake of change when the existing one has been used for years and years... — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 15:46, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, your first comment did/does not convey what you appear to think it does. Either way, at this point it's clear that my idea of putting together a new proposed text in consultation with others at a later stage is not an option."This article includes a list of references, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations. If this article has related reading, external links or similar sections, those may contain sources that are reliable enough to be used as (inline) references."Is along the lines of what I have in mind. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 16:08, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * How can the template name remain the same when its perceived spirit changes if the proposal would be implemented? The current template is being used in thousands of articles to convey that, as User:Jeepday put it, "there is content in the related reading or external links that can and should be used". This would no longer be the case after the proposed change. --82.136.210.153 (talk) 16:37, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Comment I cannot possibly be the only person on Wikipedia who thinks that this template currently appears to say that content in "related reading" or "external links" are (reliable) sources. It literally says about the article in question that it "includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations". Can anyone at least side with me on this. PBS? Anyone? --82.136.210.153 (talk) 16:45, 7 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Support. The IP is correct. That's exactly what it says and it's a good idea. End of. Also, IP, get an account. Editors will take you more seriously. So long as you're an IP, you're going to get grief. SW3 5DL (talk) 04:57, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 6 January 2015
It seems that typing  is supposed to produce the text "This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but the sources of this section remain unclear because it lacks inline citations." This makes sense, as individual sections by themselves don't contain references or links, only articles do. See also this discussion, where the change was made.

But the template doesn't work properly. Typing  instead produces a text which begins "This section includes a list of references..." which is incorrect. Looking at the code (disclaimer: I'm not familiar with Wikipedia template coding) I think the template is set to display "This (parameter 1) includes a list ... but the sources of this (parameter 1) remain unclear..." which causes the incorrect behavior.

JudgeDeadd (talk) 11:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done:, (parameter 1) is everything after the first pipe (bar eg.  ) character until then second pipe character or the closing curly brackets ( eg   ).  In your example   says that   is parameter 1.  This means the template is working as intended. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 13:56, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I disagree. It is clear that the template is not working as intended. See the discussion above, again. The template, in its current version, has been edited by User:EVula, in response to User:Peter coxhead's request that the phrase "This section includes..." be changed. This means that EVula's intentions were, indeed, to make the fix requested by Peter Coxhead--to change the template so that it states "This article includes..." But currently the template does not do so, and still produces the erroneous "This section includes..." text. So it is not working as the most recent editor intended. (True, other editors made some edits to the template after EVula, but their edits did not change anything in the part of the template I'm discussing, and don't seem to affect the functioning of this part.) JudgeDeadd (talk) 13:18, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

whole page

Using

section only

Using


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: As you can see in the example, if you want it to say article, don't use  for parameter 1. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 13:33, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

✅ The message relating to a section was nonsense; JudgeDeadd was quite right. It said "This section includes a list of references, related reading or external links" but never contain "a list of references, related reading or external links". These are part of the. When used as it correctly said "This biographical article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but the sources of this section ...". So it should say the same without the "biographical" when BLP=yes is absent. Peter coxhead (talk) 15:01, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Edit-undo.svg Undone: This request has been undone. That's incorrect usage. If you want to introduce new functionality, please test it in the sandbox per WP:TESTCASES and develop a consensus before implementing. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 15:42, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Of course sections contain "a list of references, related reading or external links" - it's part of the Manual of Style. See WP:FNNR, WP:FURTHER and WP:ELLAYOUT. -- Red rose64 (talk) 18:35, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Peter coxhead, for pointing out this omission in the BLP part of this template. I added that as an obvious omission. Debresser (talk) 18:45, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * No. What Peter coxhead meant was that individual sections of the article itself don't contain their own, individual source listings etc., only the article as a whole does. JudgeDeadd (talk) 07:01, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * If the section doesn't contain a list of references, related reading or external links then it is empty and should just be deleted. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 13:08, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * (sigh) Sorry, but I'm not sure why do people keep misunderstanding me, and this is getting annoying. I don't mean the References/External Links sections found at the end of articles. I mean that individual sections of the article itself don't contain their own individual reference lists. For example... in the article Hillsgrove Covered Bridge, the sections "Overview", "History", "Bridge dimensions" don't contain their own lists of reference sources tacked on at the end, so if we tried putting the template in one of these sections, the message wouldn't make sense -- it would refer to a reference list supposedly contained by the section, when there is no such list in the section itself. I really hope I expressed myself clearly; I have no idea how could I possibly make it any simpler. JudgeDeadd (talk) 13:32, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps that is because you are the one not reading what the template actually says and are misunderstanding everyone else. I also mean the individual sections of the article itself.  If they do not contain their own individual reference lists, they must have either related reading or external links or they are empty and should be deleted.  In your examples, those sections all have related reading which makes the template appropriate.  There aren't suppose to be a Reflist in every section, but there are suppose to be inline citations in every section which will add entries to the Reflist section at the bottom of the page.  Can you show me some actual examples of where you think this template is misused?  I'll happily explain why it is or isn't appropriate for each one of your examples. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 14:16, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * "I also mean the individual sections of the article itself. If they do not contain their own individual reference lists, they must have either related reading or external links or they are empty and should be deleted.  In your examples, those sections all have related reading which makes the template appropriate." Uh... what? Okay, now you got me completely confused. All right, for example: in the Hillsgrove Covered Bridge article, take a look at the Overview section. Where, exactly, is the "related reading" in the section itself, or this section's own "individual reference list"? All I see is the "References" and "External links" sections at the bottom of the article as a whole. The "Overview" section doesn't contain any references/links at the bottom. Huh--I guess it means, per your words, that that section is actually empty (funny, because I'm pretty sure I see quite a lot of text in there) and we should delete it! As for your request for examples of misuse--e.g. take a look at the Colossi of Memnon page, the "Sound" section. The template is there, and it says: "This section includes a list of references, related reading or external links", but there are no references, related reading or external links to be found at the bottom of the "Sound" section, so the message is incorrect. Simple as that. Okay, the issue isn't that important; it's just a cosmetic change to fix a somewhat confusing text. But for the life of me I cannot comprehend why is my point so hard to understand. JudgeDeadd (talk) 22:16, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The related reading in Hillsgrove Covered Bridge is in the collapsed section below:

The covered bridge is in Hillsgrove Township on Covered Bridge Road (Township Road 357), which is 0.1 mi north of Pennsylvania Route 87 via Splash Dam Road (TR 359). The bridge crosses Loyalsock Creek 2.6 mi northeast and upstream of the unincorporated village of Hillsgrove, and is just south of Elkland Township. Its official name on the NRHP is Hillsgrove Covered Bridge. It is also known as Rinkers Covered Bridge for the Rinker farm, which is located at the east end of the bridge. Sullivan County is located in north central Pennsylvania, about 123 mi northwest of Philadelphia and 195 mi east-northeast of Pittsburgh.

The village of Hillsgrove is where Daniel Ogden became the first settler in what is now Sullivan County, circa 1786. John Hill, who founded and named the village of Hill's Grove (later just Hillsgrove), came to the area in 1789 and bought Ogden's land about 1794. Sullivan County was formed from part of Lycoming County on March 14, 1847, and the bridge was built in 1850. The division of Lycoming County ran through Plunketts Creek Township, so there were initially townships of this name in each of the adjoining counties. To avoid confusion, the name of the Sullivan County township was changed to Hillsgrove Township in 1856; the new township name was taken from the village of Hillsgrove, which was (and is) its largest settlement. Hillsgrove Covered Bridge is named for its township and the nearby village, and gave its name to a nearby one-room school known as the Bridge View School.

The name Hillsgrove Covered Bridge can also refer to a now vanished covered bridge, also over Loyalsock Creek, but in the village of Hillsgrove. This stood from 1876 until 1934, when it was condemned and replaced by a steel and concrete structure. It was the third covered bridge on the site: the first fell into the creek, and the second was torn down to make way for the third bridge.


 * The related reading in Colossi of Memnon is in the collapsed section below:

In 27 BCE, a large earthquake reportedly shattered the eastern colossus, collapsing it from the waist up and cracking the lower half. Following its rupture, the remaining lower half of this statue was then reputed to "sing" on various occasions- always within an hour or two of sunrise, usually right at dawn. The sound was most often reported in February or March, but this is probably more a reflection of the tourist season rather than any actual pattern. The description varied; Strabo said it sounded "like a blow", Pausanias compared it to "the string of a lyre" breaking, but it also was described as the striking of brass or whistling. The earliest report in literature is that of the Greek historian and geographer Strabo, who claimed to have heard the sound during a visit in 20 BCE, by which time it apparently was already well-known. Other ancient sources include Pliny (not from personal experience, but he collected other reports), Pausanias, Tacitus, Philostratus and Juvenal. In addition, the base of the statue is inscribed with about 90 surviving inscriptions of contemporary tourists reporting whether they had heard the sound or not.

The legend of the "Vocal Memnon", the luck that hearing it was reputed to bring, and the reputation of the statue's oracular powers became known outside of Egypt, and a constant stream of visitors, including several Roman Emperors, came to marvel at the statues. The last recorded reliable mention of the sound dates from 196. Sometime later in the Roman era, the upper tiers of sandstone were added (the original remains of the top half have never been found); the date of this reconstruction is unknown, but local tradition places it circa 199, and attributes it to the Roman Emperor Septimius Severus in an attempt to curry favour with the oracle (it is known that he visited the statue but did not hear the sound).

Various explanations have been offered for the phenomenon; these are of two types: natural or man-made. Strabo himself apparently was too far away to be able to determine its nature: he reported that he could not determine if it came from the pedestal, the shattered upper area, or "the people standing around at the base". If natural, the sound was probably caused by rising temperatures and the evaporation of dew inside the porous rock. Similar sounds, although much rarer, have been heard from some of the other Egyptian monuments (Karnak is the usual location for more modern reports). Perhaps the most convincing argument against it being the result of human agents is that it did cease, probably due to the added weight of the reconstructed upper tiers.

A few mentions of the sound in the early modern era (late 18th and early 19th centuries) seem to be hoaxes, either by the writers or perhaps by locals perpetuating the phenomenon.

The "Vocal Memnon" features prominently in one scene of Henrik Ibsen's Peer Gynt.

They also show up in Oscar Wilde's fairy tale "The Happy Prince."


 * I'm hoping you understand now... Related reading means the text in the section.  The text in the section has no inline references, hence the No footnotes is appropriate for that section. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 00:18, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * So what you are saying is that is a better choice for these cases than, say, ? -- Red rose64 (talk) 11:31, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Only if there are no inline references at all in the section. Neither of the examples I'm responding to need No footnotes at all. — &#123;&#123;U&#124;Technical 13&#125;&#125; (e • t • c) 12:06, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
 * If a section has no inline refs at all, use.
 * If a section has some inline refs, but they are insufficient, use . -- Red rose64 (talk) 14:58, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Actually, now that I look at it, it was me who was wrong from the start. You see, the "Sound" section in Colossi of Memnon was originally inserted with the books by Curzon and Gould added as sources into the article's Colossi of Memnon list, but without the inline citations. I wanted to add the template, but never realized that other readers wouldn't be able to tell which of the bibliographic entries refer to the section. That was incredibly dumb of me. JudgeDeadd (talk) 09:38, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Please will someone explain to me when a ever contains "a list of references, related reading or external links". It never does. The message makes no sense whatsoever. should be used when the has a list of references, related reading or external links, but there are no inline citations in that section. An example would be Pandurang Sadashiv Sane. The article has a list of references and of external links, but that section has no inline citations. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:36, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
 * I have seen that in the References section of an article, when it doesn't contain a list of refs. Some editors prefer to do that rather than place the ugly damn maint. template at the TOP of an article. – Paine EllsworthC LIMAX ! 03:53, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * But then the second part of the message is wrong, namely "the sources of this section remain unclear because it lacks inline citations"; when placed in the References section the message should read "This section includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but the sources of the article remain unclear because it lacks inline citations."
 * Return to my example: Pandurang Sadashiv Sane. If I put it should not read "This section includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but the sources of this section remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. ..." This message is plain wrong. The  does not include a list of anything. So why was my correction reverted? I'm still waiting for an explanation. Unless there's one soon, I'll make the correction again. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:25, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * If you put it doesn't say that at all: it actually says "This section does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this section by ..." It's a clear message, and if inaccurate (e.g. because refs are present), either change it to something else (like  or, or remove it. -- Red rose64 (talk) 14:47, 13 January 2015 (UTC)
 * sorry, I switched templates above. is fine.   generates.
 * Peter coxhead (talk) 10:38, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

"Please will someone explain to me when a ever contains "a list of references, related reading or external links". It never does."

Actually, I saw a (bare) external link spammed into the bottom of a new section just a few hours ago. "It never happens" is factually wrong. I am willing to agree that it should never happen, but that's a completely different kettle of fish. If you want to see reality, then you can spend a while cleaning up Whistleblower protection in the United States. It looks like there's about 90 external links that need to be cleaned up, many of them in list format, right in the sections. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:33, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

"a list of references, related reading or external links"
I can't tell if this is what past discussions have been getting people annoyed about (I don't mean to start an argument), but the lack of a comma before the "or" in the above phrase implies that related reading and external links are examples of types of references. Is this what was meant? I thought those were three different things. KSFT (talk) 23:48, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 6 August 2015 (A minor request.)
For whatsoever reason, I keep thinking that it must be said "but its sources[...]" instead of "but its sources[...]". It just feels better for me that but be bold instead of being ordinarily un-bold.

Gamingforfun 3 6 5 (talk) 22:35, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done  True CRaysball  | #RaysUp 00:20, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, with but bold now, it feels as if it actually had a point of deprecating such an article's style of referencing. Not having it bold just seemed as if it were nearly neutral about the problem, making the template not have an excuse of objecting its reference style and thus seem a little pointless (but that does not take away the template's value of use entirely). Gamingforfun 3 6 5 (talk) 03:12, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 12 April 2016
On with my BLP maintenance template crusade!

Anyway, I am proposing an edit request that will clean up several things. Please replace
 * Code removed to Template:No footnotes/sandbox. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:50, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

This:
 * Fixes the issue causing blp to not work (BLP did)
 * Rephrases the BLP parameters so that it is clear it only applies to BLPs and not any biographical article
 * Replaces the word article in the fix parameter if a suffix is specified

It also makes the template syntax more readable and moves part of the issue parameter (if BLP=yes) to the fix parameter so that it is similar in this regard to More footnotes and BLP sources. -&copy;2016 Compassionate727( Talk )( Contributions ) 15:23, 12 April 2016 (UTC)


 * As a template editor, moving the BLP piece to the fix parameter seems non-controversial, as does "replacing... in the fix parameters", as does "blp vice BLP", as does tweaking the template syntax. What I'm not sure is non-controversial is the middle change (I need to think about it, at least). --Izno (talk) 15:36, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, it doesn't break any syntax, change the intended use of the template or any other major change. It just clarifies that blp=yes should only be used if the biography is of a living person. I, for one, know that I used to be confused by this, and tagged maybe a dozen articles improperly before I realized I was doing that. It's also worth noting it wasn't controversial at either BLP sources or More footnotes. -&copy;2016 Compassionate727( Talk )( Contributions ) 17:22, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, I forgot to mention: I always test changes in my own sandbox. -&copy;2016 Compassionate727( Talk )( Contributions ) 19:02, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Izno (talk) 13:10, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 13 April 2016
I have a minor formatting adjustment for the edit I requested above. Please change  to. This is just a minor formatting adjust to make the bolding when a suffix and blp=yes have been invoked look nicer. -&copy;2016 Compassionate727( Talk )( Contributions ) 15:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done —&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·C) 16:00, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Removal of suffix parameter
We've already done it at BLP sources and More footnotes, let's finish it up. Recently I've been going round requesting to have a literally unused parameter, suffix, from various templates. It clutters the template syntax up while serving no purpose whatsoever, since literally no one uses it. It also doesn't work without  either. Although I doubt this will be any different than the others, just for safe keeping, I propose that  be added to the end of the template. This will serve as a tracking category, and since it'll take a couple of days to update, this will also give anyone who happens to object sufficient to speak up. –Compassionate727 (T·C) 17:13, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Yup. Now we wait. — Andy W. ( talk  · ctb) 17:31, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Diff — Andy W. ( talk  · ctb) 16:34, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Why was  altered to   in ? -- Red rose64 (talk) 17:49, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The short answer is that the other templates are using that. –Compassionate727 (T·C) 17:52, 12 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I made the edit for consistency with More footnotes, whose  has been around since at least 2013. I can make the correction to both templates shortly if need be. — Andy W. ( talk  · ctb) 17:53, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Serial Comma needed in template
I came across this template (or a version of it: " ") on the Hermann and Dorothea page and noticed that it doesn't have a serial comma. I do a bit of editing on WP and tend to always include the serial comma (unless it causes more confusion, which seems to be rare). I'm curious to see whether others agree, and if so, should we edit the template to include it?

Thanks! WesT (talk) 16:44, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm puzzled. What exact change are you proposing? --Izno (talk) 17:02, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I always omit it, unless it would cause confusion. That's just my preference. However, regardless of one's opinion on the matter, there isn't a reason to update the template just to make this change. Also, the change would be to add a serial comma. —Compassionate727 (T·C) 17:05, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I see that's the change he's proposing. But where in the template does he perceive a serial comma to be needed? --Izno (talk) 17:06, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * "...a list of references, related reading or external links..." —Compassionate727 (T·C) 18:24, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Then why not say so instead of making us guess? I was under the impression that what was wanted was a comma to be placed before the opening square bracket. -- Red rose64 (talk) 20:52, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The what? —Compassionate727 (T·C) 00:38, 18 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I was thinking of which is typically placed after a punctuation mark, and begins with a square bracket. But my point about not making us guess still stands. -- Red rose64 (talk) 09:47, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

Slightly confusing phrasing with "section" parameter
Using this template with  results in: Obviously a single "section" does not include a list of references, FRs or ELs (usually). The standard handling of the  parameter does not work here. I suggest to rephrase the wording to something like this, when the  parameter is set: A similar tweak is also needed for Template:more footnotes with the same problem, consider it suggested for both templates at once please :). GermanJoe (talk) 02:31, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
 * "This section includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations."
 * "This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but this section's sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations."

Template-protected edit request on 22 June 2016
Move the  to be inside the   parameter of Module:unsubst. A similar problem exists with more footnotes

Reason for this change: make substing this template not produces an unnecessary  after the produced transclusion.

Pppery (talk) 12:50, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
 * The template doesn't clearly state that substitution is not allowed or anything, but what is the scenario that requires substitution? There isn't :) — Andy W.  ( talk  · ctb) 14:55, 22 June 2016 (UTC) 15:08, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I did act on this after testing anyway. Thanks. Ping if there are issues. — Andy W.  ( talk  · ctb) 15:03, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
 * In your fulfilling of this edit request, you added a stray  to Template:More footnotes, which makes substituting the template produce a transclusion in addition to rather than instead of the substituted wikitext. I am reactivating this request to request removal of those stray brackets.  P p p er y  (talk) 18:43, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
 * On second thought, maybe you intended to do that. In any case, I wanted $B param to contain the tracking category and the rest of the template code, not only one of those. P p p er y  (talk)
 * Yes check.svg Done with Special:Diff/730717443. Tested at X7. Thanks for the catch, that's on me. — Andy W.  ( talk  · ctb) 20:04, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

It looks like this can now be removed... I'm not certain I'm understanding the code 100% though so I want to check with you. It appears that the param is deprecated, yes? Since Category:No footnotes using deprecated parameters is now empty and there are thus no more instances of the template using the deprecated param, should we remove support for the param and delete the tracking category? -- Zackmann08 (Talk to me/What I been doing) 16:20, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 16 October 2017
Not the most important thing, but can the BLP parameter use the yesno-no template so it can take other "yes" values such as "y" and "true", rather than just "yes"? Adam9007 (talk) 00:54, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done —&thinsp;JJMC89&thinsp; (T·C) 02:05, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

RfC of potential interest
An RfC is underway that could affect this template and may therefor be of interest to watchers of this page. The discussion is located at Wikipedia talk:Twinkle. Thank you.--John Cline (talk) 05:14, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Is it appropriate to apply this to the section before the table of contents (the intro)?
It would look strange, but those sections are the most read sections on Wikipedia, and also very frequently are unreferenced. That's a bad look. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nhinchey (talk • contribs) 08:29, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
 * See WP:CITELEAD. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 12:31, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Replace essay and WikiProject wikilinks
Please see Template_talk:More_footnotes. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:44, 10 September 2019 (UTC)