Template talk:Police services in Ireland

Illustration on this template
There seems to be a degree of contention between myself and another user of Wikipedia about the use of illustration on this template, specifically of using the recognised national flags. As a consequence, I have removed all illustration to avoid the potential for "controversy", even though none actually exists, and this user merely appears to be promoting an agenda. Hopefully this is fine with everyone else with an interest. Hammersfan 20/09/07, 18.34 BST

I can't see what's controversial about displaying the areas of operation of the two police forces in question. Why on earth would you describe them as "a bone of contention", Hammersfan?

Lapsed Pacifist 18:11, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Anyone to diminish NI's part in the United Kingdom, eh? Biofoundationsoflanguage 18:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Your curiously worded and ambiguous question doesn't answer mine, Bio. Go to Talk:Northern Ireland to see how contentious flags can be. The maps are used on the pages of the forces in question. No sign of the Union Flag at PSNI.

Lapsed Pacifist 07:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Take a look at the other UK police force pages, and you'll see that every one of them has a map of the force area. And as that particular template is useful to use, it has been entered on the police force pages of other nations police forces, including the police force of the Republic of Ireland, all of which have maps on. And I think that Biofoundationsoflanguage is implying that your continuing intervention are part of your attempts to play down Northern Ireland's place as part of the United Kingdom. No one is arguing that the flag issue is not contentious in Northern Ireland - why on earth would Wikipedia have a page if it wans't important? That does not get away from the fact that, by law, the only official flag in Northern Ireland is the Union Flag. Not the Saltire of St Patrick, not the Irish Tricolour, not the Ulster Banner. And so, when representing Northern Ireland as a constituent nation alongside the Republic of Ireland, the Union Flag should be displayed. Hammersfan 21/09/07, 10.53 BST

By that logic, by removing the Tricolour I am also playing down the sovereignty of the Republic. Will I now have Irish nationalists as well as British ones complaining about my "attempts" to play down "Northern (sic) Ireland's place in the United Kingdom"/the Republic of Ireland's place among the nations of the world (delete as appropriate). PSNI stations are banned by law from flying the UF. It's not appropriate for the template. Would you care to tell us why you find the maps a "bone of contention"?

Lapsed Pacifist 11:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

No, because you seem to be the only person who has any objection about using flags. As for using the PSNI flag, to the casual observer who doesn't know the ins and outs of the debate you're trying to force, it will appear that that is the Flag of Northern Ireland, because you are putting it alongside the national flag of the Republic. If you are going to do that, why not use the flag of An Garda Síochána? Hammersfan, 21/09/07 12.53 BST —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 11:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm presuming the Gardaí don't have a flag as the tricolour is the only one I've seen flying from Garda stations. I've seen tricolours flying from PSNI stations but I'm guessing that's the work of members of the public rather than the police. I'm not trying to force a debate about anything, and you still haven't explained what you find contentious about the maps. There's a reason why it's illegal to fly Union flags from PSNI stations, that you may not be aware of. It's because people have objections about using certain flags. The template was grand before. Ireland's an island policed by two different forces. The template can show at a glance what areas they are responsible for.

Lapsed Pacifist 13:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

If Ireland's just an island policed by two police forces, why have any illustration at all in that case? Hammersfan 21/09/07, 14.56 BST

In case people think that the forces are island-wide but with different functions, as is common on the continent.

Lapsed Pacifist 18:25, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Hello. The names of the nations are part of the template too. Besides which, using pure aesthetics, the maps just make it look bad. Hammersfan 24/09/07, 10.44 BST

I couldn't disagree more. At a glance one sees the division of responsibliity for policing in Ireland. Your aesthetic argument is new, so I take it they're no longer a "bone of contention"?

Lapsed Pacifist 10:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No, they are still a bone of contention, because it doesn't look right having maps representing nations. Flags are the representative symbols of nations, not maps. Added to that, the template looks ugly with your maps, and I'm not the only person who thinks so. I showed the template to a friend of mine, who also happens to be Irish, and she agreed that using maps makes it look bad. As I have said, why use maps at all? Using the names of the nations is good enough. Hammersfan 24/09/07, 13.15 BST

"...it doesn't look right having maps representing nations." That's your opinion. The maps don't represent nations, they represent jurisdictions. I disagree with your subjective aesthetic judgment. I don't see how someone is more qualified to make such judgments just because they're from Ireland. Perhaps that's a stereotype you have. I suggest you ask people of as many different nationalities as possible. You made the point that the maps are unnecessary as the state and statelet's names are already on the template. So why did you add flags? And why don't you sign your comments with four tildes?

Lapsed Pacifist 12:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not qualified to make such judgements about the right or wrong of the "Irish question" because I'm not Irish - I believe that someone who is Irish has more right to an opinion than I, who is English. As for stereotypes, you're the one who is conforming to a stereotype - the stereotype of the Celt with a chip on his shoulder. I have made the question open on Wikipedia so that anyone who has an interest can answer it should they wish. Me going to individuals asking them such questions is a waste of my time. I don't care if you disagree with my "subjective aesthetic judgement", because all aesthetic judgement is based on the idea of the individual; it just seems that I and many other people are of the opinion that using maps on this template is ugly. Your question about the flags has a simple answer - this is an old template, and when I first designed it, I put flags on both it and the UK police template. As for why I don't sign with four tildes, I choose to sign my entries in my own way, not that it's any of your business Hammersfan 24/09/07, 17.51 BST