Template talk:Postal history by country

Edits moved from WikiProject
I'd like to see an article on each and every one of the 600 or 700 or so entities soon enough. When this template grows it will be split A-M M-Z ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦  "Expecting you"  Contribs 10:05, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


 * FWIW, I hate these kinds of templates - having to split by letters just shows how poor a solution they are compared to categories. But people seem to like them for some reason, so shrug. Stan 13:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree with Stan as this may potentially become excessively large. I think templates like this are fine for subjects by year and for very small groupings.  But, keeping an open mind, it'll be interesting to see if and how it develops.  --GeorgeWilliams 08:07, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Way too ambitious IMHO. Categories would seem like the way to go because potentially the template will be so large it might take up more than a page to itself. It will definitely take up more than a screen-full when open. Besides it looks like Sir Blofeld is not a Philately project member and we could really use philatelic writers rather than template builders at this time because there are only 2 or 3 active editors doing any real work for philately. ww2censor 11:38, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * No one seems to have any strong view one way or another on this template, so I suppose it will stay. I have retitled the template from "Postal history by country and state" to "Postage stamps and postal history by country and state" as this seems all inclusive for the topic. ww2censor 22:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I don't like this template. Far from complete and when it is complete it will be huge. It will take up most of the article by itself while the articles are mostly small. I vote to delete it or at least not use. --Saipan Sam 05:06, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * And I just found something that really is wrong where this template screws up the "What links here" section of each page's toolbox. As well as valid links you get a list of every country in the template and that makes it difficult to spot the valid links.  No good at all.  --Saipan Sam 05:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Saipan Sam, I think it would be better to explain what is wrong rather than start deleting content from the template and also removing it from country stamp pages. Maybe someone can fix it but I actually don't understand your problem with the template and you have not indicated any pages where the problem is visible. Please explain before doing any more modifications. While the wiki suggest that you be bold, template editing is a serious matter that can affect many pages, not like a simple edit to one page. Cheers ww2censor 04:51, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

A flying visit from me as I still have WP Philately on my watchlist. I have problems with templates myself and I've had a look at this thing which is one of the worst I've seen yet, especially given its growth potential. I think what Saipan Sam means about the linkages is that he has used the "What links here" option in a page's toolbox (on the left of the page) to try and see what the relevant linkages are. Instead of a handful of useful linkages he has been presented with a long list including every single item on the template. The best thing to do is nominate the template for deletion: I'll support you if you do. --BlackJack | talk page 08:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good to see you still have your eyes open BlackJack. I'm not sure I agree with deleting it yet, but could be persuaded. The advantage is that visitors can immediately see what other articles there are and link directly from there, while going to the category pages and then finding another stamp page involves much more clicking around. I think I see what you mean that the "what links here" show every article included in this template. I think that is quite an easy fix, but will ask someone how to deal with that. I think it means modifying the template to use "noinclude" or "nowiki" tags to avoid the issue. Let me see if I can find an answer. Hope you are well and not playing too much cricket what with all the rain in the UK. Cheers ww2censor 14:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

"What links here"
You said...

We are having a problem with this template for the Philately WikiProject. The issue is that when one is on a page that is contained in the template, if one clicks on the What links here, all the other entries from the template appear in the list. Is there a way to exclude those links showing as it makes the "What links here" results useless because it is overwhelmed by the template returns instead of the page's usual links. Please reply on the template talk page. Cheers TIA ww2censor 14:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Replies:
 * As far as I'm aware, the short answer is "no".
 * Each of the pages containing the template does link to the destination page, because the template is considered part of the page itself.
 * Whilst there may be a way to get around this that I don't know about, I quite strongly doubt it.
 * Sorry not to be of much help! Verisimilus  T  14:44, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I agree with Verisimilus. It's a feature, not a bug. I don't know enough about Mediawiki's internals to say if there's even a way to separate "standard" wikilinks from those generated by a template; certainly there's no way to do it client-side. Mackensen (talk) 15:27, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So, there we are, live with the problem or don't use it seem like the only results from the inquiries I made. ww2censor 15:36, 12 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Having slept on the problem, I've thought of two possible ways round it.
 * Replace the links with external links: use the syntax
 * [ Link destination]
 * I imagine there are several beaurocratic reasons not to do this, but I suspect it would solve your problem.
 * Use javascript in your monobook.js to check the "what links here" page against the links in the template, and only display genuine links. This is at the limit of my skills so I'm afraid I can't offer to help out here, but you might be able to find a JavaScript coder who'll be able to assist. The limitations here are that it'll only be you (and people who copy the script) that it affects; and that any articles containing the template which also link to the page in question will not show up.
 * Verisimilus  T  10:15, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Remove the redlinks
I must say that I very much against adding redlinks to potential article in templates when there seems to be no real possibility of the article being added anytime soon. If the template is to be useful and functional then country links should only be added when they actually have an article, preferably more than a stub. I would be in favour of removing all the redlinks, or at least making them invisible. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 03:19, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree that the redlinks should be removed if possible. Thanks. HG | Talk 21:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Template size
This template is becoming massive especially if the red links remain. I suggest that it gets broken down to smaller regional templates. An example could be to use membership to the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunications Administrations for Europe and so on. A good example of how the spiraling size of such templates was managed can e seen here: StephP (talk) 11:58, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Template:UEFA teams
 * Template:CONCACAF associations
 * As implied in my previous post above, I am not in favour of having redlinks to potential articles, but slowly being written. Where is the solution to the template size in the examples you gave?. They don't indicate any solution I can see. Perhaps the template should have continental divisions, but making the template smaller by separating out regions is not a solution as philatelists may have very different interests so that a regional template would exclude some of the other interests. Perhaps it is possible to give the template regional divisions but only one section is visible at a time, but that seems too complex to me. Perhaps something along the style of Template:Types of country subdivision would work better. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 16:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The solution I suggest does not address the red links. It addresses the size of the template. If you have one template for CEPT members, one for the Asian equivalent, one for the African and so on you end up with several templates of a more manageable size. To elaborate further on my example above click on Wales national football team. At the bottom you will find the template I mentioned above (Template:UEFA teams). At the same time you find the template which works one level up, (Template:International football) but at the same time a template to cover one level down (Template:Football in Wales). That way you can navigate your way around the rest of the football world.
 * So to translate this to an actual philatelic example I suggest we take the Postage stamps of the British Antarctic Territory and devise a template structure:
 * the highest template would be one with the 5-6 continents.
 * the next level would be all members of CEPT (Britain being a member)
 * the next level down would be a template with all the British territories and which would be the only one to have a direct link to Postage stamps of the British Antarctic Territory.
 * Potential problems with cross continental territories, such as the British post offices in Morocco, can be overcome by including these articles in not just one template (ie the British and Moroccan template in this case).


 * On another note, I do agree with you in that it would be best for the red links to be removed and slotted in to the correct templates as they appear.


 * I hope that makes my reasoning clearer. Cheers, StephP (talk) 16:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * As I already alluded to above, I don't see multiple templates being a solution. What about breaking up the current template into sections, something like this test example? Your Welsh example still means forcing users to make multiple navigation selections to get from some places to another. I certainly don't what to have to click more than once to get from one country stamp page to some others if at all possible. Currently I can get from Ireland to Palestine to Armenia with one click of the template. As far as I can determine multiple templates would not permit that. Is that still a possibility with your suggestion? You are welcome to use my test example sandbox page to show me what you might suggest if you wish. ww2censor (talk) 17:03, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Nope, I am afraid my idea might require more than 1 click to get to a destination (with a potential maximum of 3 clicks). Keep in mind however, that a drop down menu will always require 2 clicks. I would also keep in mind that if every country or territory (past or present) that has ever produced its own set of stamps is eventually included as a separate link in one single template you are looking at hundreds...
 * It seems the more mature projects that have debated this over and over (such as the football one) have adopted the sort of model I suggest.StephP (talk) 17:57, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * In the continental sectioning style I suggested do you know if it is possible to collpase each, or all, of the separate sections within a template as well as the template itself, except perhaps the one section in which the current article is? That would certainly reduce the clutter but would of course require more clicks. ww2censor (talk) 19:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I am afraid I have not yet seen a template that can do that. StephP (talk) 20:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I do think the current template is unnecessarily large. It'd be good to see one, instead, that shows major philatelic regions. IMO, these wouldn't need to be mutually exclusive. For instance, you could have a BNA or British Commonwealth grouping, French colonies, etc., as well as continents. Maybe also include a half dozen individual English-speaking countries, (UK, US, Canada, Australia, Ireland, India, etc), since we do cater to English readers. Thanks, HG | Talk 21:15, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * We already agree the current template is rather large, but part of that is due, IMHO, to it not being well organised. Your suggestion to make either regional or language based templates seems distructive to easy navigation around the different stamp articles. If I am at a European based article with its associated template, I want to be able to easily get to any other stamp article from an other country that may have no common criteria based on region of language per my example above; Ireland to Palestine to Armenia. I am fiddling around with some groupings within the template to see if that might work better. Have a look at this where there are regional groups and the redlinks are gone. We should also investigate other style templates that maybe collapse internally, if such a thing exists or can be made. ww2censor (talk) 22:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Personally I like the template in your sandbox more than the actual one. It is far more clearly arranged. Maybe it would be good to make a template for every continent with additional links to the templates of the other continents? — Tirkfltalk 08:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I had a good look around at other templates to see what is being done and what works for large content templates. Possibly nothing could have more content than this one Template:Protected Areas of California but its content seem well divided and easy to navigate. The Welsh example given above is actually 5 different templates all pasted in together to form the illusion of a single template; each one needs to be separately maintained, and editors need to know to paste all five into their new pages together with the header and footer. I think that is too complicated. Who will watch out for errors or omissions? A single well designed template seems much easier to maintain and deal with in the long run. Over the last two days I have done more work on my draft, including some subgroups (which are maybe unneeded) and a keyed map. I wish I could add the continent colour to each group name on the left. If you know how to do that, please help. Assuming agreement, I will do a little more work and then replace over the weekend adding any constructive ideas given here. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 16:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * BTW, will someone proofread my draft to see if I have added all appropriate links and placed them correctly in the appropriate continents. TIA. ww2censor (talk) 16:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have now moved the world image and its legend to the "above" section. I think it looks better now, but still cannot figure out how to fix the subgroup title box extending to the right beyond the actual text. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 19:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Hersfold kindly fixed the issues I had with the template, so it works well now. Thanks Hersfold. ww2censor (talk) 15:40, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Replacement navbox
No one got back with additional suggestions or help, so here is the replacement divided by continents with some subgroups I think are appropriate. I still cannot figure out how to limit the subgroup title box from extending to the right way beyond the actual subgroup title text. Any one who know, please fix it. Hope you approve as it is much tidier and easy to find places. ww2censor (talk) 22:41, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to admit that your hard work has produced a template far superior to the one used to date. However, I cant help but wander if there will be a similar problem a bit down the line when a whole load of new articles are created that warrant inclusion.StephP (talk) 10:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but at least now it will not just be a big alphabetical list of territories. Let's just take life as it comes; we will deal with it when it happens, but this is never likely to get as big as Template:Protected Areas of California! Cheers ww2censor (talk) 15:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Idea from fr.users
A fr.user (fr:User:Ducloy) created templates for British and French related postal histories : fr:Modèle:Palette Histoire postale de l'Empire britannique and fr:Modèle:Palette Histoire philatélique et postale de l'Empire colonial français. It may be interesting for readers to have both the complete template (with all countries) and a more precise one inside a postal colonial empire.

Perhaps, the full complete one can be duplicated with a complete one for today (listing only nowadays postal administrations). Sebjarod (talk) 16:23, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Navbox title
I have expanded the navbox title to include the term administration. ww2censor (talk) 14:43, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Azerbaijan
мм.. что то я не могу найти его в шаблоне, может кто поможет найти?=)--Фрашкард (talk) 18:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This is the English wiki, so please write in English. ww2censor (talk) 00:05, 26 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The page was deleted. See the deletion log here. Regards, —  Tirk·ﬂ  “…” 09:57, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Вижу что статья удалена. но почему страны нет в шаблоне? Там ведь указаны страны статьи о которых тоже отсутствуют, а Азербайджана нет. К сожалению по английски написать всё это вряд ли смогу =(--Фрашкард (talk) 16:10, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Map
Helpful? For whom? Babies? The map in a navigation template is pointless not to mention taking up more space in an already bloated infobox. It was I who created this template as Dr. Blofeld and it certainly was not me who inserted this silly colorful childish looking world map. I would recommend splitting the template by continent and red linking the missing articles so soon enough we have all of the 700 odd stap entities linked? Himalayan  10:29, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I see Stan Shebs and George also agree with splitting this template... Himalayan   10:39, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Are there any objections to replacing this template with regional ones like?

Himalayan  10:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Regional is cool, and since multiple nav templates are all the rage, it also opens up to do Commonwealth, "Portuguese area", and other groupings that stampistas are known to favor. The map has always mystified me. On redlinks, I think people tend to frown on redlinks in templates, they're a temptation to vandalism.  One could finesse by making a stub-creation push... Stan (talk) 13:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately some people are stupid and their geographical knowledge is poor, hence the map was inserted but if there is consensus against then let it go. As for the regional templates being the rage does nto make them good or convenient for this project. I am strongly against them for philately because it will be necessary to put all five, or maybe six or seven, templates into every country article taking up more space, otherwise you will be marginalising readers. I see no advantage to this idea at all. I, for one, know that philatelists have varied and wide ranging interests and if you only put one regional template into an article, there is then no convenient way to navigate to countries of your interest. For example, if we only put the Europe template into Ireland, how am I going to easily get to Mexico and then India without knowing, and then having to type, the name of that article instead of clicking on a link in a world template. A single world template does the job very well and is well divided up by regions making multiple templates redundant unless all are inserted in every article, besides which it seems like a lot of extra work when modifications to one template affects every article immediately. Think about it more carefully before inflicting this on readers and should be discussed with a broader group then at the template talk level as rather few people watch this page. ww2censor (talk) 13:59, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Six or seven templates? One template would be used for Ireland, the European one, I don't follow... A single world template will eventually have 700 links, too big. Look atht e Californian reserves template, ridiculously big!! I suggest we add regional templates one template at the bottom of article and have links to the other regions at the bottom... Stan I have the Stanley Gibbons catalogue for 2004 for all A-Z entities. I'd be happy to help start some. They may be basic but at this stage we shouldn't really be missing articles about postal history of countries like Spain and Brazil. We have the postal history of Obock but not Spain! Himalayan  15:07, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Six or seven templates is absolute nonsense... One template Ww2. And small links to other regions at the bottom to avoid single template clutter. If you are reading Ireland click Americas at the footer of the template and Bob's your Uncle Mexico is their to be clicked. Now please don't try to say that "many people will not know whether or not Mexico is in Americas or Asia or not. Besides which we have categories linking together every entity... Himalayan   15:20, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes Stan, I think a few red links will do for now, no need to go overboard just yet and list them all!! This way they can be started gradually a few at a time, working towards the ultimate goal, to have an article about every entity which given time hopefully will all develop. BTW I noticed a very good article on Palestine polstal history. With a bit of work I'd say this has at least GA potential and might be one for a collaboration to take to FA.. Dunno, but I think it has potential.. Himalayan   15:41, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for inviting me to contribute. I think splitting a large template is a good idea and seems to be common practice elsewhere.  Having the sister templates in a line at the bottom is a quick way of navigating to a country in another template.  It's fine.  Jack | talk page 17:57, 21 October 2009 (UTC)