Template talk:Same-sex marriage in Canada

Reorganized
I reorganized this to put the articles on top and have it be an all-encompassing template for Gay rights vs solely SSM. Ardenn 20:31, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Is rainbow Canada flag better?
On April 11, 2006, NTK replaced the Canadian flag in this template with a rainbow version of the Canadian flag.

I find that the rainbow clashes with the red in the rest of the template. If the rainbow flag is kept, I think the colour scheme of the template needs to change.

Secondly, I suspect some patriotic or anti-gay people might find the rainbow Canadian flag offensive. It is sort of subverting the national flag, suggesting a taking over of the country, more or less like a Christian cross onthe flag would, or US flag colours. I don't think any LGBT group in Canada uses the rainbow Canadian flag as a symbol, and I suspect that there is a reason. Wuzzy 03:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I recall, but can't find, a controversy involving an activist who used the rainbow Canada flag. As I recall, the flag was criticised because it was unpatriotic and he ended up sort of apologizing. His credibility was damaged. Wuzzy 00:50, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think we should go back to the national flag. Some use the rainbow flag, but not that rainbow flag. Ardenn 03:38, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it's cool, but I understand why people might have a problem with it. I don't think it's a subversion, it's obviously still the Canadian flag, I don't think patriots would have a good reason to take offence (which doesn't mean they won't). I mean it's just a little template, it's not like we're wrapping hockey players or Armed Forces members in it.--Anchoress 04:02, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Full disclosure, I made all these edits, and I am also a straight American, albeit a Canuckophile and an ally, so please do not be prejudiced! My original intention when editing the template was simply to replace the PNG version of the Canadian flag with the SVG version as I was getting rid of links to the redundant and low-res copy.  But while I was editing the template it occurred to me that it might be interesting to have an image that combines the "gay" theme with the "Canada" theme for a Canadian gay rights template, to make it a little more specific and interesting.  Incidentally I did not see here that someone had previously stuck the regular rainbow flag in the template.
 * I simply composed the Rainbow flag and Canada flag images from Wikipedia Commons with Gimp to make this image. There are two concerns, one that it clashes, and one that it might be offensive.  As to the first, I don't think the colors clash any more than the regular pride/rainbow flag (I have several gay friends in Toronto who I know use the rainbow flag, though I can't say whether or not it is less prevalent there).  However on some monitors it might be a little hard to see the outline of the maple leaf, especially at low brightness.  Perhaps as a compromise we could leave the leaf in red but keep the rainbow bars on the side?  I did a Google search for "gay canada flag"  and came up with several similar flags, including that idea.
 * As to the idea that it is offensive... that certainly was the opposite of my intention. I imagine anti-gay people are offended by the gay rights movement in general and in Canada in particular, I don't know why they need to be appeased in the Canadian Gay Rights template.  I don't see why it ought to be offensive to patriotic people either; to be offended by it smells of homophobia; it still retains the symbol of the flag which citizens ought to be proud of, and the idea that it is "defaced" by rainbow colors seems inseparable from the idea that there is something wrong with gay pride or gay rights&mdash;Anchoress makes a good point that nobody is offended by wrapping soldiers or hockey players with the flag.  If there was, for instance, a template for Christianity in America, I don't see why people would be offended by the Stars and Stripes with a fish or a cross superimposed somehow if that's what the template was about. NTK 04:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I made the change that I proposed above. Maybe this is better, because it is both easier on the eyes, I think, and addresses the aesthetic suggestion, and it also is somewhat less "flaggy" in that it maintains the regular red maple leaf of Canada between two rainbows, suggesting more of a "juxtaposition" of gay rights and Canada than a "superposition." Thoughts?
 * [[Image:Canada Pride flag.svg|300px|right]] By the way, I thought that the red in the rest of the template was hard on the eyes, especially with the blue link text foreground, before I changed the flag at all, which did not seem to make it any worse for me.  Perhaps the color of the template could be changed, even just the text to a better contrasting color. NTK 05:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I guess we could say that EGALE uses the rainbow Canadian flag...
 * (as does PFLAG Canada, Canadians for Equal Marriage and Equal Marriage for Same-sex Couples, though all of them use the maple leaf only, and only EGALE uses the rainbow colours. Wuzzy 08:51, 13 April 2006 (UTC)).
 * ...By "clash" in my first post, I did not mean that the rainbow colours clashed with each other, but rather that the rainbow clashed with the red cells of the template. The red cells only make visual sense when the flag is red and white. I agree that there is a problem with purple text being hard to read on a red background. I have not been able to find a way to change the colour of links. So, if one of them had to go, it would have to be the red background. I agree that the second version of the rainbow flag that ENK has done is better than his original design because the yellow band split the previous design, but the symbolic issue remains. Wuzzy 10:23, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * On aesthetic grounds, I prefer the elegant simplicity of the standard Canadian flag; I don't think it needs any improvement. Despite the fact that it appears on everything from boxer shorts to beer cans, it's preferable to leave it unaltered where possible.  Also, not all gay and lesbian people identify with the rainbow flag, while all Canadians, whether they like it or not, are represented by the Canadian flag.--Trystan 17:26, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I prefer the new flag, with the rainbow sides and red maple leaf in the centre. It fits better, and makes the page seem more relevent and on-topic (I guess what I'm trying to say is it really goes well with the subject). --Matt0401 19:04, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Ardenn: If you were going to revert the flag without further discussion or consensus, I wish you would have at least read my note below and replaced the .SVG image rather than the outdated/redundant .PNG image that should no longer used. Also, kudos to Circeus on the textcolor change, I think it is a big aesthetic and readability improvement. NTK 18:58, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * My apologies on that. I had meant to use the svg version, although I think that change is stupid. Ardenn 00:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

More finds on a simple search:
 * Canadian Rainbow Flag magnet (same as the last version here)
 * more magnets, from a vancouver bookstore
 * actual flags like this one
 * identical lapel pins
 * similar stickers/decals
 * whole bunch of canadian pride flags including this one at a march in montreal (difficult angle to see)
 * canadian article on importance of the rainbow flag as a symbol

and many many more. in other words the rainbow flag seems to be, in canada as elsewhere, the most widely accepted gay rights symbol, and the "rainbows/maple leaf" flag as a national gay rights image is not my innovation. NTK 02:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * similar


 * I went to the SSM in Canada page and my first impression was that the rainbow Canadian flag was jarring (and too big; I reduced its size). The regular rainbow flag is much much more common in Canada and I don't see that any image of that sort is needed; I don't feel that it adds anything, and no similar image is used in the other SSM pages. Adking80 (talk) 11:22, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with this - for aesthetic purposes the official Canadian flag is best, and for idealistic reasons a rainbow Canadian flag serves to divide and not unify, and in the end, isn't that what this is all about? Although I applaud the inventiveness and creativity, I'd vote to return the flag to its original state or have another relevant picture (first couple married, etc).--Cpt ricard (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Should provincial/territorial flags be included in provincial/territorial articles?
On April 11, 2006, NTK removed the provincial/territorial flags from the top left corner of each article entitled "Same-sex marriage in ..." I tend to favour keeping the flags, but don't have a strong opinion. However, I think that it would be best to have a consensus first. Wuzzy 03:35, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the provincial/territorial flags should be put back. Ardenn 03:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * As to the third and completely separate issue of why I removed the provincial flags from all these articles. I feel more strongly that this should be an uncontroversial move.  First of all, left-aligned wraparound inline images should be avoided in general if possible.  There's already a template taking up the top-right-hand corner which is why it was left-aligned.  But the end result is that we have all these articles on "Same sex marriage in "X": province" and the first thing you see is a big picture of the provincial flag in the top left corner of the article.  It has nothing to do with same sex marriage&mdash;the main theme of these articles, it adds no content to the article, it could as easily be about "The cheeses of New Brunswick" or "Green Party activism in the Yukon Territory" as same-sex marriage.  If the flags could be worked in somewhere in a more relevant and aesthetic manner, it would make sense. NTK 04:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to be taking a wikibreak for a little while, so I probably will not be participating in this discussion further. That's okay because I think I've pretty much addressed all the reasons why I made the various changes&mdash;since they did not seem to have been previously discussed I went ahead and made them per WP:BOLD. So I'll be content to go along with whatever the outcome is. Just make sure before you revert any edits that you please check to see if the images you are adding have been superceded, which is the case with the .PNG Canada and Northwest Territory flags. By the way I did not mean to revert Ardenn's change, I was working centrally from the old NWT flag link and didn't realize it was the second time I had deleted it; if I had I would have gone to the talk page instead. NTK 15:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree that the flags didn't really work well in the top left corner. If they were replaced, I would suggest the right side under the template, but I don't think they add much to the article.--Trystan 22:24, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I am against including the flags; they add nothing to the article, and make the formatting slightly uglier. &mdash; Nightst a  llion  (?) Seen this already? 14:32, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Note that this is now an official guideline in the manual of style at WP:FLAG. This may affect the template as it exists now also, I don't know. NTK (talk) 06:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Categorization
I'm not sure if this should be categorized in the subcategory Category:Canadian politics and government navigational boxes. --Usgnus 22:38, 12 July 2006 (UTC)