Template talk:Script/Hebrew

Changing the size
Can there be away to set the font size bigger? Epson291 14:37, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * default:
 * try bigger: -- unfortunately, it seems, that when the argument starts with an HTML tag, you have to explicitly write the number (or name) of the argument, e.g.:
 * with a template:
 * --Imz 17:32, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answer, used it already Epson291 03:25, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Would like to point out to any one who looks here, can do percent to e.g.:  Epson291 03:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

merge
this should probably be redirected to Ivrit. dab (𒁳) 07:51, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * What exactly does Ivrit do? This template is quite good, makes the use of more Hebrewish looking fonts. Epson291 09:35, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
 * yes, we should get rid of Ivrit and use this one. Note that the font specifications are now in the css though. dab (𒁳) 11:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. This template should not be used: nikud doesn't display correctly on all systems (see below). And it doesn't make it "more Hebrewish" at all, simply more oldish: Israeli websites and Hebrew wikipedia don't use Times New Roman or the fonts used in books (exactly as it is for the Roman characters in the press and on the Internet). Raffaele--193.205.100.166 (talk) 17:37, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Not always displaying properly
For some reason, this template causes the letters and niqqud to look separated and basically all over the place on my screen. I tried removing it from the Hebrew word at Egypt and hit preview, and that fixed it. I'm not going to start removing it obviously, because I suspect this is only happening to me (my browser?) and I don't see any other comments about it. Would someone happen to know how to fix it? — Zerida 04:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It happens to me too. Safari and Firefox on Mac OS 10.4. Hebrew with nikud displays properly on all other websites, where font is not specified. Raffaele --193.205.100.166 (talk) 17:17, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Anon! Please don't make changes to this template without getting consensus first, and even then it's better if someone who has a better understanding of how it works does the job. This template appears on several thousand pages and every edit is therefore harmful to server traffic. I think the rendering problem is MacOS-specific, so a MacOS-specific font should be inserted somewhere in the middle (not as the first font). Right now your edits seem to work because this font doesn't exist natively on Windows, but someone should make an image of what it looks like for Windows users to see what you have done. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:35, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I edited it; I am sorry. Thanks in advance to anyone who can fix the problem. Raffaele --193.205.100.166 (talk) 17:40, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Can you please tell us if your edits fixed the problem? (I didn't revert them). As I said, I don't have this font so I can't tell. Thanks, Ynhockey (Talk) 18:24, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

125 percent?
What gives? El_C 22:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * For Hebrew fonts 125% is still small. I was making it 140%, but User:Ynhockey reverted me :(‏ --Mahmudmasri (talk) 19:00, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

broken rendering
Since this template doesn't work on all browsers (I suspect it works only if specific fonts are available), we shouldn't be using it. See the discussion at Help_desk. - Nunh-huh 00:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Into protection?
(I separated Documantation from the template itself.) Now I suggest to make it Template:pp-template-protected, so it can only be changed through an editor (who will check consensus on this Talkpage). Reason: higly used template, changes could have huge effects. If, on the other hand, there is no consenses now on protection, then we should not do so (but that would mean this big-used template is still experimental?!). Whaddayathink? -DePiep (talk) 21:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Letter-spacing
In fact, I always use letter spacing with Hebrew fonts with no error at all with nikkud.

without spacing

 * SBL Hebrew, אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * David, אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * Narkisim, אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * Times New Roman, אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * Ezra SIL SR, אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * FrankRuehl, אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * DejaVu Sans,  אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * Microsoft Sans Serif, אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * Lucida Grande, אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת

If your fonts had errors, then that proves to you that spacing has nothing to do with it. Those were dotted words without any spacing modification.

with spacing

 * letter-spacing:0.5pt  אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * letter-spacing:1pt  אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * letter-spacing:2pt  אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * SBL Hebrew, letter-spacing:2pt אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * David, letter-spacing:2pt אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * Narkisim, letter-spacing:2pt אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * Times New Roman, letter-spacing:2pt אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * Ezra SIL SR, letter-spacing:2pt אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * FrankRuehl, letter-spacing:2pt אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * DejaVu Sans, letter-spacing:2pt  אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * Microsoft Sans Serif, letter-spacing:2pt אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת
 * Lucida Grande, letter-spacing:2pt אֱלֹהִים - נְקֻדּוֹת

If someone had a problem with a specific font, it's not because of the spacing. The spacing leaves the nikkud intact. That test was to prove that spacing doesn't alter nikkud place. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 10:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The point is, if you make a change to a highly-visible template, you need to test it first. Much more so if the change is unnecessary. In this case, after doing further research, I found out that the problem is with the Opera web browser (I will report this bug to Opera ASAP). Still, we should strive for Wikipedia to work in all browsers and systems. In fact, if you know how to fix the Mac OS problem we have with this template, please feel free to do so.
 * I also don't understand your comment about the Semitic alphabet template. What did you mean? —Ynhockey (Talk) 22:27, 10 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for replying. I did that revert because it made Template:Semitic alphabet appear broken. The Hebrew letters there didn't appear and instead long codes appeared. I discovered that when I was visiting an article with Template:Semitic alphabet included in (qoph), while I remembered having visited many articles containing the same template before with no errors. I tried to know which edit was made in it to make it appear that way. I didn't see any recent changes to the template, so I started checking if the templates used inside Template:Semitic alphabet were changed and discovered that Template:Script/Hebrew was the only one that was recently changed. After reverting that last edit, everything became normal, again. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 17:47, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Please move explicit font definitions to MediaWiki:Common.css/WinFixes.css
Explicit font definitions like these negatively affect the display in modern browsers. Please move them to MediaWiki:Common.css/WinFixes.css. This has already been done for polytonic Greek or IPA. -- machᵗᵃˡᵏ 08:37, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

SBL Hebrew
I just discovered an error in SBL Hebrew font with the glyph vav-yud  &#x05f1;  &lrm;   (וי ). It is displayed as if it were yud-vav (יו ). However, I advise against removing it from the template, since this is the best font to display diacritics on smaller sizes and the glyph is rarely used, even in Yiddish, where the letters are written (ו ) then (י ), rather than the glyph. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 04:50, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The updated version had the problem fixed . I just tested it: &#x05f1;  I'm glad to know that. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 06:01, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Custom CSS problems
The documentation says that the styles given in this template can be overrided by user CSS. The font that this template usually assigns is David. I tried to change it to FrankRuehl Regular by specifying this as the font for class="script-hebrew" in my common.css, but it doesn't work: the font for words in Modern Hebrew phonology encircled by the template undefined is still David.

Isn't that how CSS specifications work: inline CSS overrides external CSS? Therefore this template overrides the CSS on my user page. So, can the template be modified so that users like me can specify their own CSS? — Eru·tuon 18:23, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely sure of the problem, but try using your vector.css file (assuming your skin is Vector). —Ynhockey (Talk) 18:09, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Nope, I tried that and nothing happened. The font for text encircled by the template is still David. Putting the CSS into a different file won't change anything. — Eru·tuon 18:27, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You forgot to add   after the font name  . Therefore, your line should look like that:
 * However, I'm not sure whether it will work with that asterisk you are adding. I'm only familiar with   and I believe that you better not specify the regular style of the font that way because when it would be stylized as bold, the regular file of the font would be used which would not appear as clear as it would with the bold file for the font. You may stop the bold style by using adding  . Therefore your line would look like that:
 * You may also want to remove the Hebrew style specification from your common CSS, or remove your current specification from your Vector CSS. Specify it as I explained, in one of the pages, not in both. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 16:21, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Finally I tested your solution. I added the !important to my common.css, and it seems to have worked, even without my removing it from vector.css. I hadn't heard of !important before, but now that I read about it I guess it must be necessary due to the inline CSS specification added by this template. Thanks for that! — Eru·tuon 05:00, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

Font list
I'm unsatisfied with [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AScript%2FHebrew&diff=563715585&oldid=563662769 the current font list]. It removed backup fonts which ensured rare characters would appear and currently Alef is the primary font which is not only mostly available as a web-font which would delay display momentarily, but also it lacks some rare Hebrew characters that appeared by the older font list. I also want to add the web-font Taamey Frank CLM at the end of the list, since it displays some rare characters, however I didn't have time to test it with all other rare characters. Incomplete fonts should be moved at the end of the list or removed. By the way, what is exactly [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AScript%2FHebrew&diff=563715585&oldid=563704394 horrible about Times New Roman] ? Its Hebrew serif look is absolutely basic and very common (it appears very similar to print fonts), anyway it was added as a backup font. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 16:18, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Which rare characters do you need? I'd love to know it. Alef's developers at http://alef.hagilda.com/ would love to know that, too.
 * Taamey Frank CLM is good for Biblical Hebrew and for poetry and any other text that needs a lot of vowels. It's less great for simple things like names etc.
 * Times New Roman is common, but it's not free, and it's serif, so it's not great for showing on the screen, unless you have a good reason. In any case, Taamey Frank CLM has similar design and better support for vowels. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 20:12, 1 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Rare characters, such as the ones made for Yiddish which include the combination of rafe above a consonant:
 * װ ױ ײ ײַ בֿ
 * The template:Script/Hebrew is not only used for simple names, but also display to display properly Hebrew-based texts with nikud.

--Mahmudmasri (talk) 04:42, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the comment. I passed it on to the font developers. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:14, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Monospaced font?
The font order has been changed so that now a monospaced font appears before any serif fonts. Was this intentional? Surely not? The previous order worked really well on Windows, and AFAIK also on Mac, but if there are some fonts missing in other systems, let's see how we can put serif first, which is easier to read and IMO looks more aesthetic. —Ynhockey (Talk) 07:45, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, which font you are used is monospaced? --Great Brightstar (talk) 16:02, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I think you fixed it with the latest edits, but it's worth checking all popular OSs like Windows 10 and Android 6 to see what fonts they have built-in. —Ynhockey (Talk) 11:02, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I used Windows 10, but my phone is Android 5, I've just downloaded font packags from SIL, Culmus and others to investigate. With help of BabelMap I can make improves for this template, and I fell appreciate Ezra SIL (and SR) because it's well performanced with niqud and cantillation marks, and performanced better for CGJ and ZWNJ. Great Brightstar (talk) 10:05, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Hebrew redirect
I see Hebrew used all over the place where is called for (i.e. to tag Hebrew-language text in Hebrew script, and not other-language text in Hebrew script). I notice this especially when articles discuss the use of Hebrew in religious contexts, and I have a feeling this is mainly because lang|he uses a sans-serif script that looks "too modern" for representing prayers and scripture (and doesn't display nikkud properly). What about altering this template to transclude lang|he, or even directly invoke Module:Lang, so that these uses are correctly tagging Hebrew-language text? Ibadibam (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think there is a problem with this in principle, but it has to keep in mind the following:
 * The serif font is not for religious scripture, it's because it properly displays nikud, which the sans-serif script does not. There are only a few widely-available fonts that do it correctly, and they are either serif or monospace (or very awkward sans-serif, I forgot which font that is). Having legible nikud is an absolute requirement for a Hebrew language template.
 * There are other templates that rely on Hebrew, such as lang-he-n. These have parameters that are linked to this template. It's important that no damage is done in the migration
 * Otherwise it should be possible to migrate.
 * —Ynhockey (Talk) 11:56, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It actually looks like lang-he-n uses script/Hebrew directly, not the redirect. I'm talking about splitting off the redirect, since that is what is being misused. Does that still sound appropriate in principle, and are there any other cautions in that case? Ibadibam (talk) 17:26, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think it's immaterial which templates redirects to which, as long as there is a nikud-friendly template that makes sense. Not sure I understand where you want Hebrew to point to though—if it's the lang template, the font will now be changed. Is it possible to use the current fonts in the lang template? —Ynhockey (Talk) 13:29, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell, doesn't support setting font-family directly; that has to be done via user style sheets. I think it can also set this via a script subtag, but there's no   script or anything like that. ISO only specifies the one Hebrew script, and the Wikipedia community has been loathe to support "non-standard" scripts.
 * I suppose I might have started by stating my objective, which is markup more or less like this:    My first thought was to refactor  to the effect of , except that it would nest two sets of   tags. Would it be acceptable to split the font list to a new Script/Hebrew/Font-family, so that a refactored  could access it independently? Ibadibam (talk) 04:16, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Again, I suppose it's possible, but I don't quite understand the objective. Is it standardization? What is the problem you are trying to solve?
 * My concern is that after such a change, the most intuitive template for Hebrew (that is, Hebrew) will not actually be useful for anyone wishing to include readable Hebrew text. I am not sure I understand if your proposed change addresses this concern.
 * —Ynhockey (Talk) 17:14, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I certainly wouldn't want to look any different on the page! I'm trying to straighten out the text metadata. I'm suggesting that  should set the   HTML attribute the same way  does, because it's usually used for Hebrew-language text, whereas  is intended for non-Hebrew-language text in Hebrew script. Ibadibam (talk) 14:05, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Fix for wrong font name
In the source code I found a wrong font name "Frenk Ruehl CLM", plese correct as "Frank Ruehl CLM". Thanks. --Great Brightstar (talk) 16:56, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done $\color{blue}\chi$chi (talk) 17:24, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Using TemplateStyles
I created a TemplateStyle page for this page, so all articles using this template could get benefit of TemplateStyle to load font families once for the whole page. However, to make it available, you need to replace source codes by following codes: -- Great Brightstar (talk) 03:39, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Using templatestyles is of course good..but I'm wondering; the documentation here says "The font-family definitions fix broken font display in Internet Explorer and in Mac OS X Firefox." The firefox bug has been fixed for 7 years; 7 years later I'm wondering if defining the font-families is necessary for any (supported by Wikipedia) browser. Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:27, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That depands on developers of MediaWiki. However this is really useful for some articles that using this template frequently, they will get lighter HTML file size, and so the page would loading faster than before. I was already made improves that have effects on some articles as Mongolian script and I got this result. --Great Brightstar (talk) 15:05, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done, anyhow Galobtter (pingó mió) 15:44, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

backwards
Articles with this Hebrew thing causes English text to read backwards in my opera 12, such as the lead paragraph of Shemini Atzeret. How do I get it right, as in modern Opera? Thanks. Smarkflea (talk) 20:45, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * The only odd thing that I can see in the template is the POP DIRECTIONAL FORMATTING character. I don't know if it is causing the problem, but as far as I can tell it isn't needed and could be removed. According to the page on the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm, it's meant to be used to terminate the scope of one of four bidirectional control characters (LEFT-TO-RIGHT EMBEDDING, RIGHT-TO-LEFT EMBEDDING, LEFT-TO-RIGHT OVERRIDE, RIGHT-TO-LEFT OVERRIDE), none of which appear in the template. Perhaps a template editor can remove that character and then you can check if the problem persists.
 * Any chance you can post a screenshot of exactly what is happening? — Eru·tuon 23:51, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Try this. Smarkflea (talk) 02:03, 25 February 2019 (UTC) Shemini Atzeret edit.png
 * Thanks. The text changes direction from left-to-right to right-to-left immediately after the template, so it's possible that the POP DIRECTIONAL FORMATTING character is the cause. Here's a plaintext version of part of the first paragraph with that character and without it: Shemini Atzeret (שְׁמִינִי עֲצֶרֶת&#x202C; – "Eighth [day of] Assembly"; Sefardic/Israeli pron. shemini atzèret ... Shemini Atzeret (שְׁמִינִי עֲצֶרֶת – "Eighth [day of] Assembly"; Sefardic/Israeli pron. shemini atzèret ...
 * Here, does the first example have the problem you describe and is the second one normal? — Eru·tuon 04:29, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes. exactly Just in old Opera; they're both fine in new. I didn't know if there's something I could install or not. Smarkflea (talk) 12:23, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
 * What would fix it is to remove  character from the template. I'll submit an edit request. — Eru·tuon 22:46, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you; I'm glad I helped get rid of something unnecessary. Smarkflea (talk) 23:09, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 25 February 2019
Please remove the  (POP DIRECTIONAL FORMATTING) character from the template. As discussed above, it is not needed because it does not follow a LEFT-TO-RIGHT EMBEDDING, RIGHT-TO-LEFT EMBEDDING, LEFT-TO-RIGHT OVERRIDE, RIGHT-TO-LEFT OVERRIDE character (see the documentation of the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm), and it causes problems on an older browser, Opera 12.

It should also be removed from all other subtemplates of, such as , that do not contain a LEFT-TO-RIGHT EMBEDDING, RIGHT-TO-LEFT EMBEDDING, LEFT-TO-RIGHT OVERRIDE, or RIGHT-TO-LEFT OVERRIDE character. — Eru·tuon 22:51, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done -- / Alex /21  22:55, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

backwards on Sadducees
I am encountering a similar backwards problem in old Opera on Sadducees, first paragraph. Thank you. --Smarkflea (talk) 13:21, 9 March 2019 (UTC)


 * To fix such currupts, one solution is add a LTR mark character into source code, like this:

So the content won't be disorder due to text directions.--Great Brightstar (talk) 08:07, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: When I edit that paragraph, this template is not shown in "Templates used in this section:". Maybe you could mock up an example on the testcases page that shows what you are seeing and how your proposed edit might fix it. – Jonesey95 (talk) 14:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh thanks for your digging up, I saw the template is replaced in there, now I copy the paragraph to produce new test cases. Can you reproduce it? Which browser is affected? --Great Brightstar (talk) 15:19, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Primefac (talk) 14:05, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Remove font-size property from TemplateStyle page
The font-size property is already produced by template, so this should be removed from TemplateStyle page. -- Great Brightstar (talk) 16:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done – Jonesey95 (talk) 21:07, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Integtating Ifsubst
editprotected Normally, if a template is styling with TemplateStyles, and the template is used frequently in one page, MediaWiki could substitutes the code as style tag at the first place, then substitutes a link tag with attributes refers it at any other places, however this could make the HTML file size larger and so slow down the page loading. To solve the problem, we need to make use of ifsubst to reduce the substitution. This is also recommended in WP:TSTYLE. -- Great Brightstar (talk) 07:56, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Seems unnecessary to make use of that, sorry. --Great Brightstar (talk) 12:21, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Consider give Taamey Ashkenaz more priority
Comparing to other Culmus fonts made with cantillation, Taamey Ashkenaz has good support for cantillation marks in both Bold and Medium weights, and gives more clear view on screen, so the TemplateStyles could be rewritten as this: -- Great Brightstar (talk) 00:35, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
 * I trust that you know what you are doing here, and this request has languished without attention for 3 weeks, so ✅ * Pppery * it has begun... 20:17, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Default font size?
Do we really need a default specified font size that only breaks our custom specified sizes on Custom CSS?

The size  is the reason why I can't specify a font-size from my custom CSS.

If I add, in cases like the article, Hebrew alphabet, all Hebrew texts appear the same size, where the template is used to show some Hebrew text larger than other Hebrew texts within the article.

What to do then? I believe the default size here is unnecessary and bad practice. Leave it empty.

Is there a way to augment my style together with the default or how to solve this? I tried all phrases [//developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/font-size listed on Mozilla]. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 02:39, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

please check my complaint. Maybe an "if" phrase might help. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 19:32, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Why italics?
Why is script in this template appearing in italics (desktop Chrome and Firefox)? Is this intended? Note that this is discouraged per MOS:BADITALICS. Thanks. —  AjaxSmack 00:20, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It does not: . Debresser (talk) 19:36, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
 * What does "it does not" mean? — <span style="border:1px solid #93010b;background:#ef0000;padding:2px;color:#efe6e6;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em; font-family: Georgia;"> AjaxSmack 02:21, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It does not render letters cursive, just straight. Debresser (talk) 21:55, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I found the issue: partial font installation. Thanks. — <span style="border:1px solid #93010b;background:#ef0000;padding:2px;color:#efe6e6;text-shadow:black 0.2em 0.2em 0.3em; font-family: Georgia;"> AjaxSmack  00:03, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
 * All is well that ends well. Debresser (talk) 14:13, 4 July 2022 (UTC)