Template talk:Sonic the Hedgehog/Archive 1

Changes as of January 2006
I'm sorry but this has to be discussed. The new template, as revised by users TBH and Shadow Hog, is just too big. It's clogged up with all sorts of naming and headings which I reckon are supposed to be useful but, in my opinion, confuse the table. Just compare the size of the new table with that of the old one. At least that one used breaks (for starters). Please add your thoughts to this discussion. --Steerpike 00:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
 * There are bigger ones, but yes, it is getting out of hand. I prefer the reverted layout (organising the games by type) over the one that arranges them by system. Template:Zelda series uses a show/hide option on the whole tamplate; I'm not sure how to implement it, but perhaps it could be used to hide some of the links to the less notable games? Maybe only have the first three sections (Sonic series, 8-bit series and New handheld series) visible by default - clicking on a "show more" option would then expand the other sections. -- Nick RTalk 01:25, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
 * first of all, the template style used is big in itself. what about this template I designed? (below) --Phil 17:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, the good thing about this template (above) is that it's not as wide as the previous. In any case breaks were a necessity. I think the subheadings should still be coloured, but the point is that classifying the games by gaming system might not be such a good idea. I propose we either keep the original classification, or we divide the games by era (8-bit, 16-bit, 32/bit,...) or by style (2D, 3D; sidescroller, puzzle,...) I like Nick R's idea to incorporate the hide function. We should definitely look into that. I'll try and work out a few templates myself to post in this discussion. Cheers. --Steerpike 19:33, 7 January 2006 (UTC)


 * here is a new one that has the hide function.

Sonic the Hedgehog series

--Phil 00:19, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

I really like this one. It has a decent size, it's orderly and it has the hide function. Well done! One thing that still bothers me slightly is whether or not it's a good idea to drop the word "sonic" off every title. I understand this takes up space but some titles have become rather unintelligeble without the word. No? Also, I've suggested a slight tweak to the above template. I've added the blue background colour to each subheading. Good or bad? --Steerpike 15:57, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Too darn big.
It definitely should be shortened or split up. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:43, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Sonic Shuffle
Sonic Shuffle is missing from this template. I'm not sure what order the spinoffs section is presented in, so I didn't want to just throw it in there. - 211.28.82.103 06:57, 19 November 2005 (UTC)
 * It's at least vaguely in order of release date. That's how I've added it! :) --Nick R 19:04, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Italics in titles discussion
As explained in Template talk:FinalFantasy series:

''There is currently a discussion re: italics in titles at Wikipedia_talk:Manual of Style (titles). Anyone with an interest in this should participate in the discussion there. Thanks! — Locke Cole ''

--Nick R 20:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine
Why isn't Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine on this template? -- ChessManXI 09:38, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

waku waku/cosmo fighter
those games are children's sonic spinoffs. if we keep those, why not add Sonic's Schoolhouse or Tails and the Music Maker? --Phil 13:07, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, that's a good point, and if they're not already on the list, they should be. ;P --Shadow Hog 21:38, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * my point is, they are not part of any sonic continuity, but hey, who's counting, right? don't forget CR Sonic, Sonic & Tails Spinner, Sonic Golf, Nakayoshi Chao or Sonic Hopping --Phil 14:40, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Repetition
I've seen it first in the Template:Final Fantasy series... why not reduce the number of times the word "Sonic" is repeated? I've already started... igordebraga ≠ 17:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Sonic Drift
Should the entry for Drift be changed to "Drift 1 and 2", or even listed twice, and the article split, becuase they are two completley separate games (1, and sequel, 2). Shall i also move it to the 8-bit section, or is it in "Spin-offs" because it was not made by Sonic Team?

Raccoon Fox 21:18, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Note that "Sonic Drift 2" is called "Sonic Drift Racing" (with no number) in Europe. This needs to go into the chart. (Stefan2 12:03, 5 October 2006 (UTC))

Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Wildfire
I've added Sonic Wildfire to the template under spin-offs as the game was only just announced, and therefore we do not know how it fits in the Sonic Universe. This brings me to me next point; I personally consider Shadow the Hedgehog as the continuation of the main Sonic series (Sonic Adventure 1/2, and Heroes), so I think it should be in the main game series. What does everyone else think. -- VederJuda 21:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone else just added Wild Fire to the main series; I'll delete mine for now, but I want to know what everyone thinks, about where this game belongs in the series. -- VederJuda 21:56, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Shadow the Hedgehog is definately part of the series, as Shadow regains his memory in this game, so any other game which is part of the series containing Shadow would not make sense if Shadow magically gains his memories. A game like Sonic Riders, for example, is a spinoff, because it talks about a totally different sidestory. If anyone is thinking of putting Shadow the Hedgehog as a spinoff, they must read this first, as Shadow as a sidestory is incorrect. SuperSonic 00:30, June 17, 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, I think Shadow is a spin-off. My reasoning is in the developer's view - in Nintendo Power, he claimed he wanted to go "somewhere different" with the Sonic franchise, and a similar interview for Sonic Adventure DX states that Sonic would never use a gun. While it's basically Sonic Adventure 3 storyline-wise, because the game does NOT star Sonic, I would suggest moving it back to the Spinoff section. -21:45, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Really. I'm 100% convinced that Shadow the Hedgehog is in fact canon to the series. If it ain't, then it will cause some continuity errors in the series. It wont make sense if Shadow magically regains his memories in SONIC the Hedgehog. SuperSonic 19:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a difference between a canon game and a "main game". For example, Knuckles Chaotix is canon, it takes place directly after Sonic & Knuckles, but would you call it a "main game"? It has nothing to do with Sonic. Sure, it's a part of the continuity, yet it's widely considered as a spin-off. This applies to Shadow the Hedgehog; it's canon, it takes place directly after Sonic Heroes, but it doesn't necessarily qualify as a "main game". Why? It's a spin-off, one that focuses, not on the chronicle of Sonic, but a supporting character with a narrative of his own. Shadow the Hedgehog is a game that tells the story of Black Doom's arrival in Shadow's point of view, not Sonic's. Now if there was a version of Shadow the Hedgehog that told the battle against Black Doom in Sonic's point of view, we can consider it a main game. However, I consider Shadow the Hedgehog a spin-off, a canonical spin-off, that tells a story in different point of view from Sonic's. I haven't moved Shadow the Hedgehog to the spin-off and related titles section yet, but I would suggest doing so. (YAADS 20:06, 12 August 2006 (UTC))

The reason I believe that Shadow the Hedgehog is part of the main series is that Sonic had a big role in the game. That is what separates it from Knuckles Chaotix. As the game is, without a doubt, canon and features Sonic in a prominent role (as well as several other major characters from the series), it is therefore part of the main series.El cid the hero 15:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe that this game is a part of the series, because Shadow regaining his memory is an extremely important fact in the game series. SuperSonic 18:11, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Sonic and the Secret Rings (formerly Wildfire) needs to be in this list. While unreleased, it appears very strongly to be part of the main series, and it's absence might confuse some people, who will then go in and add it. Hell, I think this whole template needs to be a single, unified template, not scattered, multiple ones. By leaving it as multiple templates for 'main' 'spinoff', etc., you're just asking for people to CONSTANTLY add games to the main template, not realizing it's in another template. They won't read the talk page, won't check the history, they'll just add in Sonic Spinball and Knuckles Chaotix at random. --Visual77 21:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I honestly have no idea why it's even up for discussion. Shadow's a spin-off, because you do not play as Sonic. Chaotix and the other Sonic spin-offs are all also part of the continuity, but we don't argue over them. Just because Shadow the Hedgehog is newer doesn't mean it should be given the title of "main series" game. You don't play as Sonic. End of story. Why is this even being debated? --Daytonafathead 2:12, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

The space
I added that space because without it, the template often gets squeezed together with the last line of "External links". It just looks bad. I've tried to fix it "in-article" by adding a double space between the last external link and the template but people keep reverting it back! Some discussion on this matter please. --Steerpike 13:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Flicky
I've added Flicky to the spin-offs. Reply if you have a problem with that. Flicky appears in many Sonic games, not to mention the template Template:Sonic so I think her game deserves mention here. Kidburla2002 18:08, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Flicky is from 1984, but Sonic is from 1991. Should it really go into this template? (Stefan2 12:04, 5 October 2006 (UTC))

Sonic 2 Beta
It's a major part of the series. I've added it next to Sonic 2 in parentheses. Tom Temprotran 00:30, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Battle's listed twice
Why? If it fits into any other series, it's not a spinoff. Advance 3 implies a connection to Battle, but it's not really part of the series, is it? I don't know, but it definately doesn't belong in both places at once. -21:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a handheld game, that's good enough for me. --DavidHOzAu 09:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Handheld Game
The Handheld game (except Battle and Genesis) is part of Main Series.

Can anyone explain...?
Someone just completely changed the template and even added an "Adventure subseries" category. I think it's time for a new template. This one has gotten way out of hand, as if we didn't have enough trouble deciding if Shadow is a "main game". Isn't the concept of a "main game" a little dubious anyway? It's a category so opinionated you might as well make a category for "Good Sonic games" and "Bad Sonic games". Anyone have any ideas? (YAADS 23:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC))


 * Ugh, maybe that person thinks that the different game types in Sa1, Sa2 and Shadow make them unique for their own subcategory. Since this entire template makes no sense to most people, maybe we should organize the games by platform?  Sonic 3K Master  (鉄也) (talk) 00:56, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, whoever thought that "Sonic Adventure" isn't part of the main series (and canonical at that) needs their head examined. I'll revert this and add contains link until we can work out what to do. --DavidHOzAu 07:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)


 * It's done now. --DavidHOzAu 07:18, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

That done, we should follow what we did over at Template talk:Sonic#Template upgrade or upheaval?. I suggest getting rid of the bottom row (Blue Spheres really belongs on the first line of SonicFeatures, and the other two links are redirects) and shortening the headings (that's why the table looks so squat on lower resolutions). --DavidHOzAu 07:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Sonic Pocket Adventure, Sonic Advance 1/2/3 and Sonic Rush...
...is part of Main Series?

...sign your comments? But really, yes, they are. Rush definitely is (assuming StH06 is), and the Advance titles do tie in to the main series. SPA...maybe. Hello2112 23:58, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Riders 2
Someone added this article, even though it was deleted for lack of information, and now someone has added it again with nothing more than the same sliver of info that existed before. I don't think Riders 2 should be listed here until Sega make some official announcement of it. -- VederJuda 12:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Chao Adventures
Chao Adventures (and Chao Adventures 2) are missing. (Stefan2 12:07, 5 October 2006 (UTC))


 * Chao Adventure doesn't have its own article, it redirects to Chao (Sonic the Hedgehog), so it'd be kinda weird having it on the template for Sonic games. Sonic3KMaster(talk) 21:11, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Pico
The Pico games, "Sonic the Hedgehog Gameworld" and "Tails and the Music Maker", aren't mentioned here. (Stefan2 10:58, 8 October 2006 (UTC))

Missing
Sega Archives from USA Vol. 1, 2 and 3 and various other compilations are missing. (Stefan2 12:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC))

Useability first!
I think useability should come first on this kind of template. Its great to squish a list of sonic games down to 1 | 2 | 3 | &K but i dont think a "non-sonic fan" would be able to find their game easily. I decided to design a complete opposite to the current template, putting useability first without worring about making it small.

And here it is... (dosent work in IE yet)

&#x5B; View &#x5D; Sonic the Hedgehog series games Mainstream Spin-offs/Sonic branded titles/Sega Arcade Compilations and Ports Betas, Demos and Unreleased Sonic 2 Beta (Mega Drive) | Sonic Crackers (Sonic Studium) (Mega Drive) | Sonic X-treme (Sonic Mars) (Sega Saturn and 32X) | Project S (PC) Upcoming Titles Sonic The Hedgehog (PS3, Xbox 360) | Sonic Rivals (PSP) | Sonic and the Secret Rings (Wii)

I think this would be much easier to navigate but, come to think of it, its probably a bit too big. Mabey a comprimise between the current template and my template would be good. R OSSY   M ILES    ( ロシマイルス )    TALK   03:23, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Also for some reason its starting off hidden, i dont know how to use the hide link properly, it be great if someone could fix it. For now just press [ Show ] in the bottom right corner to see it.


 * I like the idea, but its huge! Even with the hide button, it'll eat many of the articles alive when openned.  I cleaned it up a bit, (usage of NavHead vs NavContent div styles) and put the [view] button it in.  It works in IE now, too. Sonic3KMaster(talk)  00:46, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Made it shorter, added upcoming titles, systems with only one game shouldnt have their own line. Still needs to be smaller. R OSSY   M ILES    ( ロシマイルス)     TALK   06:23, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Monkey Ball
How is the Monkey Ball series part of the Sonic series? Other than AiAi appearing in Sonic Riders, which is a cameo, not a marging of two series. -- VederJuda 12:21, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Shadow the Hedgehog (video game)

 * If I'm correct, the Shadow the Hedgehog Video game wasn't just a "spin off". It was crucial to the plot of the Sonic series and closed several plot holes. So, shouldn't this game be added to the template? UnDeRsCoRe 17:05, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes it should be in the template but some people keep moving it to spin-off. If anyone who is doing that sees this message, please stop and discuss it first. El cid the hero 10:09, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I honestly have no idea why it's even up for discussion. Shadow's a spin-off, because you do not play as Sonic. Chaotix and the other Sonic spin-offs are all also part of the continuity, and introduce us to some characters that become crucial to the plotline of future games, but we don't argue over them. Just because Shadow the Hedgehog is newer doesn't mean it should be given the title of "main series" game. You don't play as Sonic. End of story. Why is this even being debated? --Daytonafathead 2:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

WHAT THE %^%& HAPPENED TO THIS TEMPLATE?!??!!!
Okay, why were all the games removed from this template?!? It's no longer informative; there are no longer any links to the vast majority of the Sonic series!!! What sort of dimwit would kill the template like this?!?!! --Luigifan 17:05, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you 1000%. I want the old template back as it has all the sonic games, instead of the few that are major to the main series. I suggest a pettition should be started to get the old template back, or atleast something similar, as of now. SuperSonic 17:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I just put it back. there was just no way I was leaving it like that. El cid the hero 20:14, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

A Man In Black changed it according to WT:CVG maybe we should try to adhere to it in some way... Sonic<b style="color:#CC0033;">3K</b><b style="color:#0099FF;">Master</b><sup style="color:#00CC66;">(talk) 20:18, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It was so huge as to lose any sort of relevance to the vast majority of articles in which it appears. How is a user to tell the (relatively unimportant) 8-bit Sonics and the Advance series from the core games? What about the various forgotten party games and other spinoffs? There's been a trend towards making game series templates include everything but the kitchen sink, and well, it's making for huge, dense, useless templates.

Rather than being angry about it here, I suggest commenting at WT:CVG, where a standard set of rules and standard appearance are being worked upon. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The template was murdered. That's all that needs to be said.

OK, the thing is, this is not a Wikipedia style guideline, this is some random idea that only a handful of users have agreed on. All it will do is piss a load of people off. This template is not useful anymore! It may be smaller and look consistent with other butchered navboxes, but it is not better than the previous template and should be reverted immeaditly. R OSSY   M ILES    ( ロシマイルス )   TALK   10:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * PS Deleting a large section of encyclopedic content is usually considered vandalism.


 * How about this as a solution?

&#x5B; View &#x5D; Sonic the Hedgehog series games Mega Drive Series • Sonic The Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic CD • Sonic 3 • Sonic and Knuckles • Chaotix • Sonic 3D

8-bit series • Sonic The Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Chaos • Drift 1&2 • Triple Trouble • Tails Adventures • Tails' Skypatrol • Labyrinth • Blast

Current series • Sonic R • Adventure • Shuffle • Adventure 2 • Pocket Adventure • Heroes • Shadow • Riders

Nintendo Handheld • Sonic Advance • Pinball Party • Advance 2 • Battle • Advance 3 • Rush

Spinoffs • Flicky • Eraser • Spinball • Tails And The Music Maker • Sonic Schoolhouse

Arcade • Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car • SegaSonic The Hedgehog • SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter • Sonic The Fighters

Collections • Sonic Compilation • Sonic Jam • Sonic and Knuckles Collection • Sonic Mega Collection • Sonic Gems Collection

Betas, Unrelased and Recreated • Sonic 2 Beta • Sonic Crackers • Sonic X-treme • Project S

Upcoming • SONIC The Hedgehog • Sonic Rivals • Sonic and the Secret Rings

R OSSY   M ILES    ( ロシマイルス )   TALK   11:15, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Man in black, I simply can't allow the template to remain the way it is as it misses out on almost every single sonic game in existence. Point One: it excludes Shadow the Hedgehog and sonic 3D blast, both games that are in the main series. Point Two: The template is now without purpose due to it failing to inform the average reader of the vast majority of Sonic’s 15 years of history. and thirdly: theses changes have not yet gained consensus on the page it was proposed and therefore forcing it onto every template is not the right thing to do

ps: i like you template R OSSY    M ILES    ( ロシマイルス )   TALK   but would still favour the other one El cid the hero 15:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Check WT:CVG. Short version: exhaustive lists are generally not good ideas for templates; do we really need Flicky or five unreleased games or a pile of party games linked from every single Sonic game article? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes R OSSY    M ILES    ( ロシマイルス )   TALK   06:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It does a disservice to readers who aren't already Sonic fans and thus able to sort the wheat from the chaff. An exhaustive list is still linked in the template. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, I narrowed it down to "Platformers developed by Sonic Team in which Sonic appears." That's why Sonic Rush is here but not Sonic Advance, for example. I have no strong opinion about whether Shadow the Hedgehog appears on this template; I'm just reflecting whatever the last version had. There may be a handful of other edge-case games that may or may not belong here; just understand that the everything-but-the-kitchen-sink design, with dozens of games many of which are one-off spinoffs or don't even have Sonic at all, is being replaced with slimmer, more-relevant templates. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:26, 24 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry, A Man In Black, but I neither liked the design you made for this one--nor of the others using that layout. The new design which replaced it slims it down a bit, but still keeps it showing most of the series. If something like what was shown before (with such a tiny list) was used, it's useless to have the template feature at all. It's not listing even half of the games, so one might as well just put a link on a page for each of the game under a "Related Pages" section with links to a list of all the games in the series. If the templates are to be used, they should at least list half of the the information for whatever the thing is based on. --Ultima 01:58, 25 October 2006 (UTC)


 * If you have dozens of links in a template, you're forcing a template to do a task which would be better suited to a list or category. If the main list by system isn't good enough, why not instead make a list of games by series instead of trying to cram a comprehensive list into EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 06:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Ooookay...this template makes absolutely NO sense whatsoever. So, Sonic Rush has a link on the Template, but not Shadow? Why not Sonic Advance, then? It makes absolutely no sense. It seems as though these games were selected arbitrarily, perhaps even by a collective of personal biases. And, to top that off, to reach the links for anything not on the template, one must sort through dozens upon dozens of games that have little to do with Sonic whatsoever (some just involving cameo appearances). This is both absurd and illogical, and the template is completely useless and worthless.Ctu2485 03:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I didn't remove Shadow. Right now, it's "platformers starring Sonic developed by Sonic Team," which was the only common thread I could sift out of the dozens of various links crammed into the last version. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, in addition to having to sort through an entire article to find links to games (including having to sift through information on ROMS and pirate games), one using this template will increase the difficulty of locating most of the other information on the series.Ctu2485 03:43, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Then I strongly suggest improving the list, making a better list, or using categories. This template was being forced to do a task to which templates are ill-suited. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:40, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

OK lets have a vote on wether to use the new template or the old one and place bets on who will win lol - R OSSY   M ILES    ( ロシマイルス )   TALK   09:31, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This affects more than one single template; discussion is ongoing at WT:CVG. You are invited to contribute there. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Also check out the size of this navtemplate Template:ASUE
 * That's awful. All the more reason to set a good example here that other projects can follow. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 10:19, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Check this out:

&#x5B; Edit &#x5D; Sonic the Hedgehog series games Main Series • Sonic The Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Sonic 3 • Sonic Adventure • Sonic Adventure 2 • Sonic Heroes • Shadow The Hedgehog • Sonic Riders Other Mega Drive games • Sonic The Hedgehog CD • Sonic and Knuckles • Knuckles' Chaotix • Sonic 3D: Flickies Island

Other Saturn, Dreamcast and Neo Geo • Sonic R • Sonic Shuffle • Sonic the Hedgehog Pocket Adventure

8-bit series • Sonic The Hedgehog • Sonic 2 • Chaos • Drift 1&2 • Triple Trouble • Tails Adventures • Tails' Skypatrol • Labyrinth • Blast

Nintendo Handheld • Sonic Advance • Sonic Pinball Party • Sonic Advance 2 • Sonic Battle • Sonic Advance 3 • Rush

Spinoffs • Flicky • Sonic Eraser • Sonic The Hedgehog Spinball • Tails And The Music Maker • Sonic Schoolhouse

Arcade • Waku Waku Sonic Patrol Car • SegaSonic The Hedgehog • SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter • Sonic The Fighters

Collections • Sonic Compilation • Sonic Jam • Sonic and Knuckles Collection • Sonic Mega Collection • Sonic Gems Collection

Betas, Unrelased and Recreated • Sonic 2 Beta • Sonic Crackers • Sonic X-treme • Project S

Upcoming • SONIC The Hedgehog • Sonic Rivals • Sonic and the Secret Rings All games and cameo appearances

Yay, a compromise, looks like your template, but you can view all the games without having to travel to a new page - R OSSY   M ILES    ( ロシマイルス )   TALK   11:05, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Show/hide is glitchy as all get out, and, well, why not just make a better list for all of the games? I'm not unsympathetic, but I think you're forcing templates to do something they're ill-suited to do. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 12:11, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * flips through above template* The above template looks good, but some of the spin-off titles aren't needed. Maybe it should contain the main titles, the Advance titles, some NOTABLE spin-offs (AKA not WakuWaku Sonic Patrol Car), and the titles shouldn't be divided by system; it makes it still too large. I think it should be seperated similarly to how the original template was made, but with a lot out the 'non-notable' titles omitted. The current template's format seems to overinflate it, however. Anyway, I completely hate the new template, but I'd like to help make it better instead of restoring the gigantic original. Hello2112 23:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * How about this?

Sonic the Hedgehog series games Main games Spin-offs Compilations Betas and Unreleased Upcoming Titles

Hello2112 01:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

This is not perfect, but I think something along the lines of this would be more appropriate: &#x5B;view&#x5D; Sonic the Hedgehog series games

This covers all titles of the main series and leaves only the sideseries, etc. to the other page. Ctu2485 19:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

How about this template?

Sonic the Hedgehog video games

If you're linking more than a dozen articles, you haven't identified a closely-related series of articles to tie together. Doubly so if you need a left-hand column to identify each separate category of links. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 08:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes we had. It's called "Games that sold well or are not contradicted by later games", "Games that are eight bit", "Games that have Sonic Tails or Knuckles in it", "Games that are not yet released", "Games that were never released", etc. If the only difference is whether it is a table or not, it would be better to keep it in a table because it won't look ugly on a thin browser window; the information in the left hand column will appear at the beginning anyway. Note that the Sonic series is a lot bigger than most of the other series out there. My opinion is that the CVG guideline is non standard compared to the rest of Wikipedia. Look at Matrix, Marvel Comics films and The Da Vinci Code. Oh, and the template should've been reverted to a time before the dispute took place instead of protecting a version that is disputed. The ideal solution: let this be the exception to the CVG wikiproject, and everyone will be happy. --DavidHOzAu 04:09, 30 October 2006 (UTC.
 * The point is that it's not a good idea to cram multiple series of articles (nevermind if they're one series of games or not) into one navbox, since that just leads to clutter that isn't relevant to the vast majority of the articles. The fact that other projects cram everything but the kitchen sink into navigation templates doesn't make it a good idea.


 * The ideal solution seems to be identifying several threads of related games and making several templates, instead of making one gigantic, cluttered mess. Why not break up this template as was done with the equally huge, equally cluttered, equally useless Mario series templates? You could easily get three, tightly-interlinked templates out of this: Sonic Team platformers (which is what this template is now), platformers developed by third parties (the 8-bit games, 3D Blast and all of the handheld games beside Rush), and spinoffs. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:28, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah, I see where you're coming from; the problem is that it kind of relegates spin offs into a whole 'nother category, as if they weren't worthy to be part of the main series. The other thing is that Sonic Riders is probably in the main series, (it is a modern 3d game,) but it is a matter of debate whether it will have any impact on later games, so we've left it where it is.  I think deciding where to draw the line would open a can of worms that we'd rather not open. --DavidHOzAu 04:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Another reason why they are in the same place is because it's easier to navigate from one type of game to another without having to jump back to the series article all the time.
 * --DavidHOzAu 04:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * The kitchen sink template isn't useful to anyone who doesn't already have the Sonic fandom knowledge to separate the wheat from the chaff. I don't care about where you stick one or two links; there's always going to be edge cases. (Personally, I'd say Sonic Rush, a platformer actually developed by Sonic Team, is more relevant than a racing game developed by a third party, but I don't feel particularly strongly about that.)


 * I think it's important to think about the needs of non-Sonic-fan users than Sonic fans, and I haven't seen any argument that linking to unreleased games or the handheld spinoffs and other less-relevant links does anything but divert attention from the top-level articles.


 * It's unavoidable that a line has to be drawn. Looking at the history of this talk page, people have been kibitzing about where the line should be for quite a while now. I'm saying that the scope has been allowed to become so large that this template is useless to non-Sonic-fans, and decipherable only to gamers. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 05:02, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

AMIB - There are not as many Sonic Team-developed Sonic games as you seem to think. Sonic 1, Sonic Adventure, and Sonic Heroes are basically it. Sonic 2/3/K were all STI, Rush was Dimps like the Advances, and Adventure 2 was a spinoff studio Sonic Team USA. You might want to find a different standard of inclusion. Rolken 19:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course, Yugi Naka worked on 1, 2, 3&k, so the distinction that who wrote a game is really moot. The thing is that there once was the main team Sonic Team) and the american outlet (Sonic Team International).  However, the two branches merged a while back to be just one team, and they've also merged with UGA, choosing to retain the banner Sonic Team.  Although the UGA part of Sonic Team wrote Sonic Riders, it really was a Sonic Team effort.  Thus, as far as we are concerned, every game is and always had been written by Sonic Team, no matter who originally wrote it. --DavidHOzAu 05:43, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * One member of Sonic Team (whose name is Yuji) working on the games does not suddenly make Sega Technical Institute - there is no such thing as "Sonic Team International" - equivalent to Sonic Team. STI didn't merge with anyone, it was dissolved after the failure of Sonic X-Treme. And Riders being Sonic Team seems to only further prove how silly the "games developed by Sonic Team" distinction is, as I don't think anyone would call that one of the main games. Nice try at revisionist history, though. Rolken 16:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Arbitary division 1
I really think this one, posted above, should be the template: &#x5B;view&#x5D; Sonic the Hedgehog series games

It's far shorter than the original, and keeps the RELEVANT titles visible. Hello2112 00:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I actually prefer the one that the anon left. However, I have edited the one you just posted so that the heading cells don't wrap. --DavidHOzAu 06:02, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I also just removed the &lt;br/&gt; tag in there to make it look more squat. Hope you don't mind. ;-) --DavidHOzAu 06:04, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

DavidHOzAu's layout suggestion

 * This is more of a layout and than a content suggestion.

Sonic the Hedgehog video games There, like the one the anon posted, but with less-distracting bullets (bold ), a smaller bottom, inline subtitles, and gratuitous use of   and. A good compromise of the old layout with A Man In Black's suggestions. Can I suggest that all future proposals use this layout? It looks rather nice. --DavidHOzAu 06:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Note, just checked it out in IE, and it looks like &amp;thinsp; isn't as thin as it should be. I'm in the process of finding another way to make it look better under that infernal browser. --DavidHOzAu 06:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There, fixed it up as best I can to look the same in both browsers. The &amp;thinsp;'s had to go.  Pity, it looked better with them in. --DavidHOzAu 07:13, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Why not split this template into three? Once you distributed or omitted the upcoming games, you've got three clearly distinct article series there. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:14, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I like that idea, but then we would have to post all three in the main series page, and there are already four templates there. I know how to distribute the Upcoming titles if the template is split: Sonic '06 and Secret Rings would be in the main template, Genesis would be in handheld, and, if Rivals' story is kind of off-canon, the it would go under spin-offs. Hello2112 23:00, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Then TFD the useless ones. We currently have a massive characters template better-suited to a category, and a "features" template that has no theme I can discern.
 * Snarkiness aside, that's why the appearance is standardized, so multiple templates stack nicely. It's also a good reason not to cram every single article into a navbox template; such templates will overwhelm the parent article. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Now we're getting somewhere. The characters template is streched beyond belief because of the Archie characters, so I think they should be in their own category, with minor characters put into one big list (and the links to their entries in the template removed). Also, some links in the template link to the 'minor characters' page, and those should be removed. So, are we going to split hese templates up? Hello2112 00:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a plan. I can go ahead and make a pair of other templates (and unprotect this so the CSS can be fixed, if everyone is happy with the idea of splitting the template into three). Any objections? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * No objections here. I've already done a bit for you... --DavidHOzAu 12:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

New versions
I've decided to be bold and hack the new split and appearance here. Edit it at will and state when you make a change in a post. --DavidHOzAu 12:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that the first navbox has &amp;nbsp;'s in the wikilinks to prevent a partial-title wrap. I haven't gotten to the other navlinks yet. --DavidHOzAu 12:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I just merged handheld with 8-bit. diff --DavidHOzAu 12:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I just finished adding the &amp;nbsp's. diff --DavidHOzAu 12:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Now here's a question: should Sonic Rush appear in Sonic games (handheld) even though it is also part of the main series canon? --DavidHOzAu 12:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm also not sure how this four can be made into three without merging compilations into spin offs, since doing that would give us another problem template again. --DavidHOzAu 12:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I think that as long as the compilations template stays that small, it would be fine. Hello2112 22:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I think we might be best to just not make a spin-offs template at all. They're awfully far-flung, and they can all fit into a category. Likewise, but less so, with the compilations.

Can we think of a better term than "canonical" for the main series template? Canon is always contentious and this template seems to have some weird outliers (Sonic 3D Blast? Sonic Riders?) that don't make sense without clear criteria. It'd be one thing if it was like Star Wars canon, strictly regulated by an authority, but AFAICT what's canon and what isn't regarding Sonic is a contentious issue discussed pretty much only on forums.

I think we probably need to drop remakes and far-off upcoming games, as is done in all the templates. Sonic Adventure DX, for example, isn't much a part of a larger series of articles than a sub-article of Sonic Adventure. I think the wisest thing to do may be to merge the remake articles, but this is a discussion for another time. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Re: "Canon". As "main series" sounds a bit unwieldy, I thought we should put something else there to make it clear that the template doesn't cover all Sonic games.  I couldn't think of an alternative name other than "canonical".  I'm open to suggestions. --DavidHOzAu 08:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Re: Upcoming. I think the convention about notable upcoming games in a series is to put them in the navigation template anyway. --DavidHOzAu 08:18, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * How about Principal titles? Combination 13:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's kill the spin-offs template. I took the links to the DX and Battle parts of the SA and SA2 articles, respectively. I also cut out Riders becasue, although it introduces new characters, it is still a spin-off. I also removed 3D Blast. Hello2112 23:44, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * So if we're going to kill the spin offs template, where will Sonic Riders appear? It is too successful and pretty a game to be considered a spin off.  Strictly speaking, we haven't got any indication that it contradicts earlier or later stories, besides it being a racing game.  And with that picture of Sonic Riders in his article, there might be some comments on FAC about not being able to find the article from the series page.  I'm more inclined to keep it in the main series. --DavidHOzAu 07:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
 * There isn't a series of articles into which the Sonic Riders article fits. We shouldn't be fitting things into templates because we like them; we should fit them where they fit. Frankly, it's not a major part of the series; while it may or may not be a good game (I haven't played it), it's a racing spinoff coming a decade after the series' peak of popularity, and previous experience implies that the characters and ideas introduced likely won't be terribly important ones. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 15:23, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I fixed up the main series template and updated this template with it. I also pulled off the 'canonical' thing and replaced it with 'main series'. i know that that isn't the best header, but it's all I could think of that wasn't really debatable. Oh, and Sonic Riders, in my opinion, should fall under spin-offs, despite the fact that I've seen it listed on the main series article as part of the main series because it was developed by Sonic Team. Change it if you must. H e llo2112 23:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I've created the other templates: Sonic games (compilation) Sonic games (handheld) Sonic games (spin off) Yes, I know that there was absolutely no consensus on the spin off template, but I used the smaller version of the template that was floating around here; hopefully there won't be a problem. --DavidHOzAu 12:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * What the fuck. Who vandalised this template again? This is seriously pissing me off. H e llo2112 18:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Outstanding issues
Well, now that the important stuff is out of the way, now it's time to discuss the less important stuff. (I'll sign these individually so they can be replied to individually.)

What is the header for this template going to say? Canon games is out (as the story is probably the worst way to organize Sonic games, and Sonic canon isn't strictly defined anyway) and main series is awkward. Ideally, we'd have a place to link the overall umbrella Computer and video games article, as well as making it clear that we're talking about video games. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, we really need to ditch the upcoming games links. Game previews are poor sources, the importance of these games is not yet established, and it's not even clear that they won't be canned or renamed or otherwise changed before release. (Heck, they don't even have finalized names.) - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I can't support this. Just because we can't be sure that the previews of unreleased games are accurate doesn't mean we shouldn't list them. As if we don't list them then inaccurate articles will stay inaccurate, whereas if there is a link to them, they can be improved in a much simpler fashion. Your argument that we shouldn't list them because "it's not even clear that they won't be canned or renamed or otherwise changed before release." is also flawed on two counts. 1) If they are changed in a significant way we can edit them to be accurate when the change is announced (in a similar manner to the Wii) And 2) if they get "canned" then they can be removed from the template. Your point on which template they should go into is a valid one. However, I believe that it is better to have them in then to keep them out. Therefore we should discuss were they should go rather than why they should be left out. El cid the hero 21:23, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmm...This new template looks good. I like it. H e llo2112 01:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Well I still think Sonic 2006 should be there. To put this in context, the game is going to be released next Tuesday. It's a bit conspicuous that the article link isn't there. --DavidHOzAu 05:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh. That's probably a good thing to add, then. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:37, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

How about 'Sonic the Hedgehog console games'? H e llo2112 01:45, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Throws the door open to spinoffs again. :/ - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
 * IMHO, shared universe and metaseries come the closest to expressing the sentiment of the ideal word (phrase?) to use in the template; however I would still look for a more suitable word than those two labels. --DavidHOzAu 05:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I re-added Shadow. It is considered canon; it follows Sonic Heroes directly. H e llo2112 17:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Sonic and the Secret Rings: Main Series or not?
I don't think this game is part of the main series. The plot of Sonic finding lost pages to The Arabian Nights Story seems irrelevent to the main series. - 15:02 18, November 2006 (UTC)
 * We'll have to wait for the game to be released. H e llo2112 22:45, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

These Split game link box's
Are TERRIBLE honestly, there really really bad!! i dislke them, bring back the one that had

Main Series Hand held Spinoff Upcoming games

All in one box, cluttered it was, but you could find everything you needed.

Sonic the Hedgehog video games That one!!!


 * How about no? This design was agreed on, and it's not going to change because one person dislikes it. Oh, and sign your comments. 69.163.218.160 23:46, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Complete titles of the games on the template
Let's see. There are some users like El cid the hero who disagree the template showing the complete titles of the games, and prefer shorter and neater ways. In my opinion, you can's just left those incomplete titles being so inaccurate. A mere and simple "Sonic 2" could be for some people the Mega Drive game Sonic the Hedgehog 2, and for others the Dreamcast game Sonic Adventure 2, as this one is known as Sonic 2 in its context-platform. But the most funny thing is that we have a Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit) game showed on the template, with its complete title, and next to it a mere Sonic 2. Why? Isn't the next one a sequel? Then why just Sonic 2 and not the fitting and more complete Sonic the Hedgehog 2? (and the same with Sonic the Hedgehog CD and Sonic the Hedgehog 3, as they are part of the classic Sonic the Hedgehog saga) Because that's the same as calling "Mario 2" to Super Mario Bros 2 or "Mario 3" to Super Mario Bros 3, being so inaccurate. Let's be more concise and less neat. Wesker85 04:41, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Firstly: A user is unlikely confuse Sonic 2 with Sonic Adventure 2. Partly because the games are listed in chronological order of release, and partly because Sonic Adventure 2 uses its full name to distinguish itself. Secondly: is there any advantage to listing the words “the Hedgehog” in every single game’s name when it easily apparent to the user the Sonic CD means Sonic the Hedgehog CD.


 * Sonic the Hedgehog (16-bit) is a special case because the next few games after it (Sonic the Hedgehog 2, Sonic the Hedgehog CD and Sonic the Hedgehog 3) all have the same name as the first with the only difference being a suffix onto the end of each game, and so putting the full title in the first one sets up the pattern, making it a waste of space to include “The Hedgehog” in the ones after it. As well as to help distinguish it from the newest game. El cid the hero 17:27, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not listing "The Hedgehog" in all the games. I'm listing it in the games that really bear that title. It's what Sega did when those games were created, and we should respect it. Sonic Adventure, for example, is not a "Sonic the Hedgehog" game and should not be pointed as that, but in the case of Sonic the Hedgehog CD and the Mega Drive/Genesis Sonic the Hedgehog games, it is.


 * What's the point about the waste of space? Does that really matter? This is not a movile phone chatting. This is a list that organizes those games, and there's no point on conforming ourselves with patterns that some people may not get. Because if you set a pattern by making shorter the Sonic the Hedgehog 2 title with "Sonic 2", having the first Sonic the Hedgehog as the reference of the pattern, then you can do exactly the same with Sonic Adventure 2, having the first Sonic Adventure as another reference for a pattern, and the chronological order would do the rest in terms of distinction.


 * It's simply useless keeping those shorts titles in the template. Making things shorter and neater, but also inaccurate, is against the real meaning of what a "Encyclopedia" should be. Things must be clear for the users, and if a game is called Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (and don't tell me that's a long title), that is as it should be adress, letting the shorter "Sonic 2" for the lazys.


 * Because I'm sure you don't call Super Mario Bros 2 as "Mario 2", right? Or Super Mario Bros 3 as "Mario 3"? Then let's simply do the same with the Sonic the Hedgehog games. Wesker85 03:58, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This looks perfectly fine as it is. I truly doubt someone will mistake Sonic 2 for Sonic Adventure 2. It's much simpler to shorten the game titles that follow a pattern up to a point. H e llo 21 12  00:10, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Wesker85 don't change the page while a discussion is taking place over the vary changes you are making. It considered bad faith. El cid the hero 14:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * No. Someone DID the change and I just reverted it as it was at the beginning of this discussion.


 * By the way, it's very funny how there is a strictiveness about the Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) unalteration of its adressing name matter (someone always reverts it to a simple Sonic the Hedgehog, notably on the Sonic and the Secret Rings article reference), and in this one, the strictiviness is about the totally opposite thing. Wesker85 03:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) is called that so it isn't confused with sonic 1 which would otherwise have the exact same name. El cid the hero 12:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Then why don't you go and say that in the Sonic and the Secret Rings discussion to the TJ Spyke user who is constantly reverting the name? Wesker85 00:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * (Please note that you can understand what game I am talking about when I say Sonic 1, and therefore by extension, Sonic 2 and Sonic 3.) Sonic the Hedgehog 2 & 3 however doesn’t share an identical name with another game, and therefore doesn’t need to have there full name included on the template.


 * plus, with the names shortened it takes less space and is simpler to navigate. That why I disagree with your opinion as the full names for those games are pointless and a pointless use of space El cid the hero 12:47, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


 * It's still a unnecessary thing. Those official titles are not that way long to overexceed the size of the template and difficult the navigation. And plus, it's always better to keep the original and official titles instead of short, lazy, and inaccurate titles. Again I insist in all the examples I told you before, and as this is an encyclopedia, we should do things the most without getting to the point of confussion. In other words: official titles as they are are always the best option. Wesker85 00:43, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Shadow again
Can people stop please moving shadow to the spin-off template. We have discussed it before and decided that this was were it belonged. El cid the hero 11:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that YOU decided this is where it belonged, when everythign about the game besides story points to spin-off. Chaotix and the other Sonic spin-offs are all also part of the continuity, but we don't argue over them. Just because Shadow the Hedgehog is newer doesn't mean it should be given the title of "main series" game. You don't play as Sonic. End of story. Why is this even being debated? (Yes, this is a copy+paste, because the idea remains the same) Daytonafathead 2:17, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * look under the section Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Wildfire and you will see that there is consensus for shadow being a main game. El cid the hero 13:20, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

But it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I'd like somebody to explain to me how Shadow the Hedgehog is part of the main series games, with the knowledge that both Tails Adventures and Knuckles' Chaotix are both in spin-offs when they too are part of the main series continuity. They are put in "spin-offs" because they do not star Sonic, and he's not even playable in them. Shadow does not star Sonic, and he's not even playable in it. It's all a matter of common sense and logic. Shadow is a spin-off by very definition of a spin-off. Daytonafathead 09:32, 25 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Not playable =/= not part of. Sonic has a major impact on the storyline of Shadow the Hedgehog and the game defintly expaneds on the story of Sonic. Therefore it is a main game. El cid the hero 03:57, 26 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, Daytona, they're put in spin offs because:
 * events in them they aren't referred to by the other main-series games according to present understanding; (e.g. Heroes retcons Knuckles' Chaotix as far as the Chaotix are concerned.)
 * they didn't sell well;
 * In regards to Shadow, you'd get laughed out of SSMB if you said that Shadow wasn't part of the main series. Shadow is a main-series game. Period.  End of story.  The matter is closed. --DavidHOzAu 09:05, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

How did Shadow the Hedgehog expand the storyline any greater than Shadow's story? You learn more about Shadow's past, but that's about it. Nothing more relevant to the Sonic story besides what happened to Shadow 50 years ago. I really see no relevance to the Sonic game plot. If Shadow the Hedgehog the game never happened, it wouldn't cause the slightest ripple in the main series continuum for anyone else but Shadow. So because you don't actually play as sonic, as you do in every other game listed in the main series, and because it's not relevant to any character's story except Shadow, it cannot be considered a main series game when thought through logically. The matter cannot be closed there when you actually think. --Daytonafathead 05:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the point that it is in the MAIN SERIES, its main storyline. It just is! 82.20.90.52 11:13, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The only strong point to put Shadow in the main series is the importance of Sonic in the game. But, in Sonic Riders, there is a story around Sonic too, but everyone agrees that it's a spin-off because it's a racing game. A spin-off can have a story around Sonic that is in the main continuity. Shadow the Hedgehog is like Knuckles' Chaotix, it's a game starring a character that is not Sonic. Knuckles' Chaotix is a spin off, so Shadow is a spin off. Even if Sonic is important in the story, he is just a supporting character like Tails and Vector the Crocodile. Even the Commander and Eggman are more important than Sonic. Shadow is a spin off. User:DjinnFighter

Knuckles' Chaotix is a spin-off because the gameplay is different and doesn't involve sonic at all. Sonic Riders is a spin-off as the gameplay is different. Shadow has the same gameplay and Sonic is importance in the game. (And don't try and argue that the gunplay make the gameplay significantly different) El cid the hero 00:34, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

In Sonic Heroes, the gameplay is also different, more than Shadow's, but Sonic Heroes is a main game, it's evident, more than Shadow. The gameplay is not a good point to put Shadow in the main series. User:DjinnFighter


 * Nore is the fact you don't play as Sonic a good point to put Shadow in the spin-offs. its all depends on how you define spin-off. and the majority agree with me on this El cid the hero 14:49, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

If one hundred people kill themselves, you will kill yourself too because everyone do that. It's not because a lot of people think that Shadow is a main game that it's officially a main game. Also, there is a lot of people who think that Shadow is a spin-off. DjinnFighter


 * Ah, but there are many more who believe that Shadow is relevant to the story and is a main game in the series. Also, if it was non-canon and not part of the main series, then it would create a massive plot hole pertaining to how Shadow got his memory back. H e llo 21 12  00:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I didn't said that Shadow is non-canon. But it's not a good point to put it in the main series, Sonic Riders is also canon and Knuckles' Chaotix too. DjinnFighter


 * can you prove that? El cid the hero 01:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

80.194.3.44 please stop and discuss your editing. El cid the hero 15:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I simply don't see how Shadow the Hedgehog is part of the main series, even if it is a closure to the Sonic Adventure 2 story arc, that does not mean it enters into the series of main games. The game is formed from the splitting of a larger entity (The Sonic the Hedgehog series) to show Shadow's role in the world of Sonic the Hedgehog. Sonic the Hedgehog may play a role in the game, but so do other title characters of the series in other media related spin-offs. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.5.31 (talk) 22:20, 10 February 2007 (UTC).


 * its the same gameplay, is a continuation of the same story and Sonic is featured in a prominent way. how is it a spin-off. El cid the hero 00:29, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Knuckles Choatix also has the same type of gameplay if you claim Shadow has, and it was due to Sonic's intervention/fighting with that of Dr. Eggman, he was able to design Metal Sonic and had discovered Angel Island, so Sonic is prominent to the story (and even appearing later in the game) so explain to me how that isn't a spin-off? A spin-off is created to explain off certain aspects of the stories that are otherwise left unanswered, a change in core gaming mechanics, even a change in the usual settings, Shadow the Hedgehog was created to fill in the gaps of Shadow's past, but not that of Sonic the Hedgehog and has a much different setting. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.5.31 (talk) 00:46, 11 February 2007 (UTC).

spin-off definition taken from answers.com

1)a)A divestiture by a corporation of a division or subsidiary by issuing to stockholders shares in a new company set up to continue the operations of the division or subsidiary.

b)The new company formed by such a divestiture.

2)Something, such as a product, that is derived from something larger and more or less unrelated; a byproduct.

3)Something derived from an earlier work, such as a television show starring a character who had a popular minor role in another show.

By definition 2, I can argue Shadow the Hedgehog is not a spin-off as it is heavily related to Sonic Heroes and therefore not an unrelated byproduct. Also, by definition 3 its not a spin-off because the entire main cast of Sonic the hedgehog appears in the game, and therefore it is not derived from an earlier work but rather a continuation. El cid the hero 12:58, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

PS: I’ve protected the page so no one can edit it until this issue is resolved El cid the hero 13:00, 11 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't see how that supports your own argument? Shadow the Hedgehog was formed from the storyline presented in Sonic Heroes sub-plot, and Sonic Heroes basic storyline was Metal Sonic trying to become the overlord of the world, Shadow's past was just a sub-plot, and the two games are also more or less unrelated (the gameplay and settings) also definition 3 would support me more then you, because Sonic the Hedgehog is the star of the series of games called Sonic the Hedgehog, Shadow is the main star in this game and Sonic the Hedgehog becomes a secondary character in the game. After all, almost the entire cast also appear in Knuckles Chaotix, being Dr. Eggman, Metal Sonic, Knuckles, Vector, Charmy, Espio, Mighty, Tails and Sonic! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.47.5.31 (talk) 13:48, 11 February 2007 (UTC).


 * I'm starting to see the other side of this. Shadow, by strict gameplay definition, is a spinoff. Storywise, it isn't. I recognize the points with Riders and Chaotix, and I personally think that we should either at least bring Riders onto this template (if going by story) or leave Shadow in the spin-off template (if going by gameplay). H e llo 21 12  00:06, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Knuckles' Chaotix
Okay, someone took out Shadow the Hedgehog and added Knuckles Chaotix, just to let you know. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.19.141.251 (talk) 21:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

These two games are spin-offs

Chaotix is, Shadow isn't El cid the hero 01:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

All Canon Games Included in Main Series
Should't be all the canon games included in the main series template eg Sonic Rush and Sonic Rivals. Higglio 19:40, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I think we need to come up with a definition of Spin-off; otherwise the argument over shadow will never end. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by El cid the hero (talk • contribs) 22:46, 13 February 2007 (UTC).

I think spin-off should be seen as exsiting outside of the main canon. Higglio 10:29, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I think non-canon games are spin-off, but canon games aren't necessarily main games. Sonic Riders is a spin-off, but it's canon. Yes I think that a lot of "handheld" Sonic games are main games : Sonic (8-bits), Sonic 2 (8-bits), Chaos, Triple Trouble, Blast, Pocket Adventure, Advance, Advance 2, Advance 3, Rush and Rivals. DjinnFighter

Spin-off should be defined by a combination of game play similarity and storyline connection. Also, if a game can be defined by one of the other two templates, it should be placed there and not in main or spin-off. El cid the hero 16:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Shadow the Hedgehog
What the? This game isn't on any of the Sonic series templates! I think it should be on either this template, or on the spin-off template.


 * Someone just leave it on the spinoffs template... H e llo 21 12  00:15, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * But the discussion on it hasn't ended yet. We still need to discuss what we mean by spin-off. (not suggesting we take it out of spin-off for right now, just that we need to discusses it in more detail before it becomes permanent.) El cid the hero


 * Well, I never said that the matter was closed, but I think that we need to determine how the main games template is ordered (story or gameplay). H e llo 21 12  23:27, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


 * after think about this for a few days, I have come to the conclusion that both should be considered a factor in considering if a game a spin-off or not. For example, even though Sonic Riders is considered to be cannon (though none of its exclusive creatures have appeared in any other game yet) its still a spin-off because its gameplay is in a different Genre (racing) than the rest of the main series (platforming). Is this acceptable criteria to work with? El cid the hero 12:57, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hero: Yes, that's acceptable. Shadow is a spin-off as far as games go, a mistake which hopefully Sega will not make again, and Riders has too few cross references to other games to be considered canon beyond all reasonable doubt, but I think we all know that. ^_^  Anyway, if we went by canonicity, then Battle and the Advance series would be here too.
 * Hello2112: the template has always ordered games in terms of story.
 * I'm now going to contact Nishkid64 and ask for this template to be unprotected... please let's not let it get this bad again. &mdash;davidh.oz.au 12:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Hold it, I never said I felt Shadow was a spin-off, just that that should be the criteria on spin-offs should be judges. I believe Shadow has strong story connections to the main series (Shadow losing his memory was an important part of the story of heroes) and the game play is almost identical to the adventures series. Also, nearly every Sonic characters appears in the story mode. So I still feel it’s a main series game.


 * However, if the majority of the editors on this page think otherwise after the full and frank discussion we just had, I will have to accept the decision of the majority of editors. El cid the hero 13:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Something I have learned is that if leaving something in a certain state stops an edit war, then it is better to let it go until some time later when the issue isn't so hot and cooler heads can prevail. The page has been unprotected.  Let it go.... we can discuss this later. &mdash;davidh.oz.au 13:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * don't worry, we have had a discussion and the majority disagreed. Although I am not happy with the conclusion, I am happy accept it El cid the hero 17:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)


 * For the record, I'm not happy with it either. Not to worry, no doubt someone will come along in a month or so and put Shadow in this template where it belongs, and it will largely go unnoticed by "the other other side" long enough that a revert will be considered WP:POINT making.  The trick is to make the correction "adjustment" when no one suspects it will notice, i.e. well after this edit war has cooled off, and in an unobtrusive manner. ^_^ &mdash;davidh.oz.au 14:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Blue Sphere
Well, Blue Sphere is a kind of Sonic game and has its own article and all. I just ask you people, what template is it supposed to be in? Gurko 16:24, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Spin-off. 69.163.222.106 23:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a gameplay feature... not an actual game... must belong in Template:Sonic features! &mdash;davidh.oz.au 12:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and added it next to Special Stage on Features. It looks like the best move. Gurko 11:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Shadow III: Son of Shadow
While we have a consensus for leaving Shadow in the spinoff template for the moment because it will avoid a pointless edit war, I think we are ignoring the fact that there was no consensus to remove it in the first place. What I am going to do here is state clearly what we have always done when it comes to the main series, and hopefully reestablish consensus about how to handle this and similar situations in the future.

Let's look at Sonic the Hedgehog series. If this template was about what games were canon, all of the following games would be in this template:
 * Sonic the Hedgehog
 * Sonic the Hedgehog CD
 * Sonic the Hedgehog 2
 * Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
 * Sonic Advance
 * Sonic Advance 2
 * Sonic Adventure
 * Sonic Adventure 2
 * Sonic Heroes
 * Shadow the Hedgehog
 * Sonic Battle
 * Sonic Advance 3
 * Sonic the Hedgehog 2006
 * Sonic Rivals
 * Sonic and the Secret Rings*
 * * ok, so I added this one to the list. work with me here.

Obviously this template isn't about all games which are canon, so let's categorize what sort of game console they were released on:
 * {|class="wikitable"

!Title!!Type
 * Sonic the Hedgehog
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * Sonic the Hedgehog CD
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * Sonic the Hedgehog 2
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * Sonic Advance
 * style="background-color: #e9c;"|Handheld
 * Sonic Advance 2
 * style="background-color: #e9c;"|Handheld
 * Sonic Adventure
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * Sonic Adventure 2
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * Sonic Heroes
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * Shadow the Hedgehog
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * Sonic Battle
 * style="background-color: #e9c;"|Handheld
 * Sonic Advance 3
 * style="background-color: #e9c;"|Handheld
 * Sonic the Hedgehog 2006
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * Sonic Rivals
 * style="background-color: #e9c;"|Handheld
 * Sonic and the Secret Rings
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * }
 * Sonic Battle
 * style="background-color: #e9c;"|Handheld
 * Sonic Advance 3
 * style="background-color: #e9c;"|Handheld
 * Sonic the Hedgehog 2006
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * Sonic Rivals
 * style="background-color: #e9c;"|Handheld
 * Sonic and the Secret Rings
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * }
 * Sonic and the Secret Rings
 * style="background-color: #be8;"|Television
 * }
 * }

Taking out the handheld games, we are left with the following:
 * Sonic the Hedgehog
 * Sonic the Hedgehog CD
 * Sonic the Hedgehog 2
 * Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles
 * Sonic Adventure
 * Sonic Adventure 2
 * Sonic Heroes
 * Shadow the Hedgehog
 * Sonic the Hedgehog 2006
 * Sonic and the Secret Rings

In other words, everything that should be in the template.

Hmm... that above list looks awfully familiar...

Hence we arrive at our inclusion criteria for this navigational template:

Proposed inclusion criteria
Failing the first of the above: Failing the any of the above:
 * The game must be on a television-based console; and,
 * The game references other games directly and/or later games make reference to it;1 and,
 * Sonic is the main character or appears in it;1 and,
 * The game is similar enough to other games (running, jumping, plus all other stuff that changes from game to game).1
 * Put it in the handheld template if it is a handheld game.2
 * Put it in the spinoff template2
 * 1 This is the criteria the main article uses.
 * 2 Note: When a game is not suitable for Sonic games, I must stress to use common sense when choosing between handheld and spin offs, because handheld is also used for the 8-bit game series.

In tabular form: By the above criteria, Shadow qualifies because it involves running and jumping. Sonic Riders does not. Neither does Chaotix, nor any of your other spin offs. Would anyone object if we accepted the above inclusion criteria for the template. It is rather comprehensive. &mdash;davidh.oz.au 23:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Comments? &mdash;davidh.oz.au 00:32, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about the 8-bit versions of Sonic and Sonic 2 being on the "handheld" template as they did have TV versions. Why not use sections like Sonic characters? That would take up about the same space, and also solve the problem of games appearing to be missing from a particular template. As an aside I can't find SegaSonic the Hedgehog or SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter on any of these templates, even though both use the spinoffs template. GarrettTalk 03:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * We originally did have everything in the same template but A Man In Black changed it as it was against Wikipedia's policy about video game templates, I believe. Gurko 09:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
 * The 8-bit games were also released on the Game Gear, which was a handheld I believe. Hence that template's full title is "Sonic the Hedgehog series 8-bit and handheld video games", yet is shortened for brevity.  As for SegaSonic the Hedgehog, that should be added to the spin off template since the article is sizable enough.  As for SegaSonic Cosmo Fighter and other minor Sonic games that are stubs, they should probably be merged into an article like List of minor Sonic the Hedgehog games where they can receive better treatment and focus. (Although the "minor" designation may invite NPOV issues, I'd still say go for it, we do the same with "minor" characters anyway.) &mdash;davidh.oz.au 06:29, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion of Sonic Rush
Sonic Rush is pretty popular, is in the Sonic canon, and really, is the best Sonic game in years (and not my opinion - check GameRankings). Sonic Advances 1-3 and Rush really are not lesser Sonic games. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:06, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

&mdash;davidh.oz.au 06:57, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Link, I have to agree with you. Rush should be in here without a doubt.  Heck, Sonic 2006 directly follows it, and the split had it here at first.  Also, Sonic only had four games on the GBA, they were all canon, they should be here.  Can't people connect the dots??  :sigh:  However, the above inclusion criteria is based on what has generally avoided edit wars with newbies in the past.  Heck, the latest edit war and protection was over an established user reverting an anon.  The problem is that sometimes people come here from the various places on the net and they don't understand the way Wikipedia works.  There seems to be a real stigma against the Advance series and any handheld game in general in the fandom, (try finding any Advance-series fic on fanfiction.net,) and it is a pity that we have to go to such lengths to work around such a bias.
 * EDIT: I stand corrected. Five.  Which I would keep in handheld under a new criteria, as not main series, or spin off, as not 8-bit, depending on the way it's worded.  I'm beginning to want to get another proposed criteria going which is based more on a games' success rather than the more arbitrary one above. (which was based on past practice.) &mdash;davidh.oz.au 07:08, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Link, I suggest we accept the above proposal for the time being, with the caveat that the Advance series, Rush, and Rivals be included in this template. Although I am now waiting for someone else to bring up Sonic Riders, I'd rather discuss this further than have a straw poll. However, I will now nip this burning issue it in the bud: Sonic Riders is not a platformer. There. :P &mdash;davidh.oz.au 07:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I prefer it this way, really. There are enough handheld games to warrant its own template, and removing Advance and Rush would render it pretty small and pitiful. Also, Battle' would have to go with them due to its strong connection with Advance 3. But then again, it's a fighter, so it could go in spin-offs... You know, this is a pretty confusing set-up we've got here. Gurko 12:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't see removing four games as destroying the template. - A Link to the Past (talk) 15:11, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * What about Battle?Gurko 21:13, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Battle's definitely not on the same level. Battle's a fighting game pretty much, and while it has a plot connection, it is not a part of the main series. Advances 1-3 and Rush, however, are not only canon and directly connected to the plot, but also platformers. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:19, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Right, it is clear to me that the proposed inclusion criteria needs to be reworded. Per this discussion, I am going to include Advance 1-3 and Rush in this template.  Give me a day or so to draw it up, as I have a significant milestone in a uni assignment I need to handle.  (Note: If memory serves, the problem games when the template was unified were Battle, Rivals, and Riders, and choosing where these will be placed will always be the most contentious.) &mdash;davidh.oz.au 00:44, 19 March 2007 (UTC)