Template talk:Ukraine subdivisions sidebar

Templates
Hey. Check out Regions of Ukraine, I've updated it to something more streamlined and a lot simpler to read. As such, I really don't think there is a need for Administrative divisions of the Ukrainian SSR since they are essentially the same thing (I've added a bottom row with the former subdivisions) and currently there are two templates taking up space when we can have just one. What do you say?

I would recommend we keep History of Ukraine and Ukrainian statehood together as well, since in all reality they are one and the same thing. Ideally, I see the difference between these two templates, where History of Ukraine would have articles along the lines of History of Ukraine (1922-1991) and History of Ukraine (1991-Present) as well as events (Ukraine during World War I), with Ukrainian statehood having articles on the nation-states themselves (as it is now). But we are quite a long way away from having those articles and I figure it is best to keep them merged together for now (until a larger influx of Ukrainian Wikipedia editors!!).


 * Wow! I love the look of the template "Regions of Ukraine". It looks simply great. Some changes should be made, though. It would be better to rename the template to more general description such as subdivisions of Ukraine (currently titled as such, but named differently). Also, some categories are out place. For example, there is no difference between districts of cities with special status or any other cities, all those districts are created in the individual discretion of city government, thus, categories "Districts of cities with special status" and "Districts of regional cities" should be combined into one. Moreover, the city districts pretty much are the same level of subdivision as a conventional districts in Ukraine. I should point out also to the fact that the template does not include an important category of cities of raion (district) significance. That is a unique category for all cities other than of special status and of regional significance. Those cities usually are small and along with urban settlement can be considered as towns, yet unlike those urban settlements, they have a degree of autonomy within a district jurisdiction where they are located. There is very little information available about those cities and analysis of the category. Other than that the template looks more than wonderful - it's simple, easy on an eye, and very informative covering all major aspects of the administrative division of modern Ukraine. Great job!!! Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 17:18, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I've made some tweaks to the template. Merged the two raions (cities w/ special status and cities w/ regional importance together). The only reason I had them separate was because of the way KOATUU had them listed (separately). You're right, either way they are one and the same thing. I also tried to make it easier for the reader by changing "District city" to "District-level city" since it would be easy to confuse the former with "City district" for readers who are not familiar with the administrative scheme of Ukraine. Either way they need to re-do the entire administrative scheme of the country from scratch since all of this confusion is left over from Soviet times!
 * What do you say about Ukrainian statehood?  Facebook like thumb.png DDima 18:15, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

Great! But there is no need to create a fourth level. Rural settlements (selyshche) do not have any forms of representation or governments, they are like oscillated neighborhoods and usually are part of some settlement council, may it be urban (including city) or rural. I designed a table in the main article about the administrative divisions of Ukraine based on the 2001 Ukrainian Census. Frankly it is a certain degree of original research as there are no such tables and was created out of a personal perspective. For simplicity the administrative division in Ukraine is based on a structure: region-district-council. Council or "rada" (local name) is a representative body of any settlement and it was inherited from the Soviet administration. Districts are divided into several rural councils (silrada) and/or include other entities such as city councils (miskrada) of district-level cities (district significance) and settlement councils (selyshchna rada). Settlement councils always correspond to urban settlements, therefore other settlements that exist as part of rural councils are not taken into consideration and not mentioned in the Constitution of Ukraine. However that conclusion is based on my own perception and should be reviewed by a real expert, yet I came to it after reading various legislative materials of Verkhovna Rada and conducted a separate web research on the matter. But one should be aware of a fine difference between administrative division and a simple locality. Anyway I hope you will understand where I am coming from. At any rate the look of the template as I said before is terrific and provides an additional appeal aside of technicalities. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Once I ran across some article about the cities of district significance and wanted to interpret it into the Anglophone Wikipedia, but just did not find a time. It is a great article that explained history and reason on creating of such an entity. Maybe later... There also some discussion and I believe a bill on the administrative reform in Ukraine. So, maybe there will be more changes in a future. Considering all your contribution, I feel like you should be aware of all that if did not. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 18:52, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Just wanted to point you folks to this article. Not sure if it would be better to add a Ukraine-specific section to it, or to do Russia and Ukraine on separate pages, as it was done here. Suggestions are welcome. By the by, does Ukraine have urban-type settlements of district significance (i.e., as the administrative divisions equal in status to towns of district significance and selsoviets, only centered around an urban-type settlement)? Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); January 23, 2013; 19:09 (UTC)


 * Thanks I appreciate it! I think I've spent more time and effort on designing the templates in my entire wiki-career than writing articles themselves.. Anyway, yeah the whole admin. structure is hard to understand (I still struggle with it sometimes lol) but you seem to have a better grasp of it! I removed the fourth level and tweaked it again "urban-type settlements" >>> "settlement councils" since we are sticking with the region-district-council method.
 * I've been considering re-writing the entire series of Administrative divisions of Ukraine to reflect consistency between names and terminology because the way it is now only you and me can understand it :) as for the casual reader.. I'm sure they will have a more difficult time understanding.. Anyway, for the past year I've been working on creating articles on Urban-type settlements and lately creating Raion articles for those that don't exist.  Facebook like thumb.png DDima 19:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Ezhiki, thanks for the link. I just came across your article City of federal subject significance (I was wondering for a while if there were articles like that for Russian territorial subjects). Anyway, it doesn't matter if we keep them separate or together (if separate perhaps rename them to reflect their status in either Ukraine or Russia (Town of district significance (Russia) for instance..)
 * I'm not sure but I believe something to that of an "urban-type settlement of district significance" does exist in Ukraine, particularly since there is an urban-type settlement of Teofipol (I'll create an article soon..), yet it is the administrative center of Teofipol Raion.. Something to think about.  Facebook like thumb.png DDima 19:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the information! The reason I asked about the urban-type settlements is that we'll need to organize the Russian/Ukrainian information, if Ukraine has them as well, and it's probably better to do it before hundreds of pages start to link to the new article(s) :) (as they now do to town of district significance).
 * Anyway, just wanted to let you know that it doesn't really make much difference for WikiProject Russia whether Ukrainian and Russian towns of district significance are covered in one article or separately, but I would appreciate if you could let me know when you decide which way you ultimately want to go. I'll adjust the Russian side accordingly so there are no inter-article conflicts or confusion. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); January 23, 2013; 19:44 (UTC)

Good pointer from Ezhiki, thank you as well. I wanted to tell that I liked the way certain portions of the article is written about states of Germany. There is a great chart that help to come up with the table for the Ukrainian counterpart (refer to diagram). Also there are several articles on the web, out of which now I can only recall the Inna Bohoslovska's party Viche website, that have discussions about the proposed administrative reform presenting with some explanation on understanding of current situation and why reform would be beneficial. Also, I think that this article should be transformed into more broader one like an index page rather than being a mere page with purpose of disambiguity. About urban settlement of district significance, I must say that there are no such concept. Urban settlements may be administrative centers of districts, but unlike cities they do not have any significance and that is the main difference between them. I might be mistaken, but I never seen or heard such a term. I can say for certain that there is no urban settlements of regional significance. In regards to the discussed template, DDima, I think it looks now as a well-polished one. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 20:25, 23 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, this is strange. Someone keeps on adding the fourth level without any discussion. Someone is mixing populated places and territorial units together forming some kind of symbiotic hierarchy. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 01:09, 22 May 2015 (UTC)