Template talk:User Han Chinese

Only Han Chinese is Chinese people?
I'm a little bothered by some HongKong or Taiwan editors on this article. Chinese people refers to Zhonghua Minzu not just Han Chinese. Zhonghua Minzu is the Descendants of the Dragon. Everyone agrees on this. Stop change this article back and forth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edipedia (talk • contribs)


 * Like I mentioned in the Chinese dragon article, can you provide sources to substantiate that all people of Chinese nationality refer to themselves as Descendants of the Dragon? --- Hong Qi Gong 15:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

This template is for Chinese ethnic not Han Chinese. Zhonghua Minzu is the Descendants of the Dragon. Han Chinese are descendents of various ethnic groups. Edipedia 15:52, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Subjects of the Dragon (Emperor)
Dragon is the symbol of Chinese emperor. The true meaning of "龍的傳人" is subjects of the Dragon (Emperor). More elegantly, we use "Descendant of the Dragon". Genghis Khan, Kangxi, Qianlong and many other Chinese emperors are considered to be "真龙天子". But they are not Han Chinese. All the ethnic groups in China are subjects of verious Chinese emperors (Han Chinese emperor or other ethnic emperors). So all the ethnics in China are "Descendants of the Dragon". Beside all the ethnic groups participated in the formation of Han Chinese. They're entitled to be "Descendant of the Dragon" if they like to. It is just stupid to say that "漢族是龍的傳人. ". At least, nobody say so in China.

There are historic reasons to say that Zhonghua Minzu is the "Descendant of the Dragon", not just Han Chinese. These are indicated in the Chinese version of 汉族的主体 华夏族

公元前2700年夏族领袖黄帝东进，战胜华族领袖炎帝，两族达成联盟并将蚩尤灭掉，占据整个中原，华夏二族逐渐融合成华夏族. 后来华夏族融合了藏缅族、吐火罗人、东夷、通古斯族、西戎、祝融氏、蚩尤后代、匈奴、鲜卑等. 西汉时期，一个以华夏族为基础的新民族：汉族产生了. 汉代汉族是由华夏族与东夷族、楚族融合而成的，也有部分羌族的血液.

到了现代,大陆也有很多学者，媒体称汉族和其他少数民族等中华民族为“华夏民族”.


 * Zhonghua Minzu also includes such peoples as Tibetans, Russian minorities, Korean minorities, etc etc. There are 55 ethnic minority groups in Zhonghua Minzu.  Do they all consider themselves Descendants of the Dragon?


 * Besides, this template is now for Han Chinese specifically. Stop changing the wikilink to Zhonghua Minzu.  --- Hong Qi Gong 17:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

乾隆是龍
Dragon is not for Han Chinese. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edipedia (talk • contribs) 2006-08-01


 * Han Chinese do refer to themselves as "Descendants of the Dragon". The disagreement that we have is whether or not everybody in Zhonghua Minzu also refer to themselves as "Descendants of the Dragon".  --- Hong Qi Gong 16:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Dragon is not exclusively for Han Chinese. That is not uniquely Han Chinese. The template I provided is more appropriate. Edipedia 16:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The template does not say only Han Chinese refer to themselves as "Descendants of the Dragon". Your edit is unjustified and illogical.  --- Hong Qi Gong 16:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Then you should should "Descendants of the Dragon" in your template. Edipedia 16:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What? --- Hong Qi Gong 16:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

"Descendants of the Dragon" are dragons. There is nothing wrong with my template. Its format is in line with other Wikipedia ancestry template like the dolphine template. Edipedia 16:48, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? --- Hong Qi Gong 16:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Dragon is not uniquely for Han Chinese. You can't use this for han Chinese. The one I created is neutral. Edipedia 16:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This template does not state that only Han Chinese identify as "Descendants of the Dragon". --- Hong Qi Gong 17:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Then you can't direct "Descendants of the Dragon" to Han Chinese and you can't use the dragon symbol. Edipedia 17:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Why not? Han Chinese refer to themselves as "Descendants of the Dragon".  The template is neutral on Zhonghua Minzu and other ethnic groups.  All it is concerned with is Han Chinese.  And it does not say that only Han Chinese refer to themselves as "Descendants of the Dragon".  I don't know what the problem is.  --- Hong Qi Gong 17:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Since "Descendants of the Dragon" include not only Han Chinese, you need to have the Dragon singled out or use the neutral one I created. Edipedia 17:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That makes no sense. Again, I repeat.  The template does not say only Han Chinese are Descendants of the Dragon.  You need to stop reverting.  --- Hong Qi Gong 17:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

If you direct "Descendants of the Dragon" to Han Chinese, then you are basically saying that only Han Chinese is "Descendants of the Dragon". Edipedia 17:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No. Nothing on the template says only Han Chinese are Descendants of the Dragon.  Saying "A is B" is not the same thing as saying "Only A is B".  Your reasoning is illogical.  Please stop reverting.  --- Hong Qi Gong 18:00, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid the Dragon is not Han Chinese, at least not uniquely Han Chinese. Edipedia 18:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No. Nothing on the template says only Han Chinese are Descendants of the Dragon.  Saying "A is B" is not the same thing as saying "Only A is B".  Your reasoning is illogical.  Please stop reverting.  --- Hong Qi Gong 18:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You'd better use something uniquely Han Chinese for this template. Otherwise people change. Edipedia 18:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * There's no rule that says we need to have something unique for this. --- Hong Qi Gong 18:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

That is just stupid. This is a template for Han Chinese. Edipedia 18:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Exactly. And Han Chinese refer to themselves as Descendants of the Dragon.  The information is accurate.  It doesn't say anything about other ethnic groups in China.  --- Hong Qi Gong 18:51, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Other ethnic are all "Descendants of the Dragon" Edipedia 18:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That is irrelevant (and unsubstantiated). This template is about Han Chinese.  Not about any other ethnic group.  --- Hong Qi Gong 18:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Resolution
Please stop warring and help here to resolve this issue. Matthew  Fenton ( contribs ) 18:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, while you're trying to solve this problem. You'd better keep it to the Han Chinese ancestry template I created. That is the accurate and neutral one. Dragon is for Manchus. As a Han Chinese, I don't want to be described as a descendant of the Manchus. Edipedia 19:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Then subst the template and modify it to your needs, theres no reason why you have to use his version. Matthew  Fenton  ( contribs ) 19:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean subset? The template should contain the unique characteristics that all Han Chinese can accept. Nobody wants to be in the subset. Edipedia 19:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Substitute: use this will include the html in your user page which you can modify.
 * Also i fail to see your problem with this ubx, as well.. you do not even use it. Matthew  Fenton  ( contribs ) 19:09, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Matthew Fenton here. If you don't use the template why should he subst it? You should subst if you desire to use it. Otherwise you're just creating drama for no reason. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 19:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm afraid that the other editor should use the subset. I'm not using the template because is not neutral. Edipedia 19:11, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * * subst -- It is in his userspace and while no one owns the content he would generally be given priority as it is in his personal space and he created the ubx. I also imo do not believe he should have to subst: it. Matthew  Fenton  ( contribs ) 19:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Edipedia, why not create a second Han Chinese 2 template that conforms to what you'd like to have? We have multiple templates for a variety of other issues as well. JohnnyBGood   t   c  VIVA! 19:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * His problem is not so much that he disagree with how this Userbox looks so he doesn't want to use it. His problem is that he doesn't agree with how this Userbox looks on other people's userpages.  Basically he doesn't want anybody to have a Userbox that looks like how this one currently looks.  --- Hong Qi Gong 19:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I see no evidence of that. He's just changed this community accesible userbox. If he were changing ones subst'ed on people's pages then I'd agree with you. However he's not yet done that to my knowledge. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 19:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Here's the evidence - I've saved the same template in my userspace, something that he doesn't even use, and he edited that, too. . --- Hong Qi Gong 19:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

We're talking about the template here not someone's private space. The first template definitely should be a neutral one that everyone can accept. If some Han Chinese want to be descendents of Manchus, then they can creat a Han Chinese2 template afterward. Edipedia 19:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I cant see any npov vio. Matthew <b style="color:#3366ff;"> Fenton  (</b> contribs <b style="color:#3366ff;">)</b> 19:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd agree, except his version was here first. You are welcome to create a second one and label it User HanChinese or some close variant like that. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 19:26, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Here, I've solved the problem for you two. Edipedia here's your template at Template:User HanChinese and Hong can keep his here. JohnnyBGood   t   c  VIVA! 19:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm afraid that neurtrality policy first. The template you suggest definitely look subset. Edipedia 19:30, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Neutrality Policy? This is a userbox. They're not subject to neutrality. Secondly I'm not sure what you mean by subset. It's actually listed first in the category so it looks like the primary box for Han Chinese. I consider this issue resolved and any further reverts by either of you will be reported. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 19:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the secondary userbox. --- Hong Qi Gong 19:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, you list the Han Chinese infront of Chinese template. That's wrong. Edipedia 19:38, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Where do you see that? In the category? That's because it's alphabetical. Next you'll be telling me Albanians shouldn't be infront of Chinese on that list. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 19:42, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What is wrong, its alphabetical. Matthew <b style="color:#3366ff;"> Fenton  (</b> contribs <b style="color:#3366ff;">)</b> 19:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You're being ridiculous. C stands before H. Edipedia 19:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

This problem needs more discussion. HanChinese looks secondary to Han Chinese. These two should switch. Edipedia 19:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Only to you my friend. Only to you. Besides, who cares if it "looks secondary". It isn't. You know it isn't, I know it isn't and anyone who looks at the template knows it isn't. So I don't see the problem, neither is primary and neither is secondary. JohnnyBGood    t   c  VIVA! 20:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Adding a category
Can I add back Category:Han Chinese Wikipedians? User:MatthewFenton reverted that out when he restored the template to its original form. --- Hong Qi Gong 19:49, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, you dont have to ask to edit. Just dont revert until all parties have settled the dispute. Matthew <b style="color:#3366ff;"> Fenton  (</b> contribs <b style="color:#3366ff;">)</b> 20:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright. I've also taken care of that little alphabetical order problem that User:Edipedia was talking about.  --- Hong Qi Gong 20:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)