Template talk:User Irish

Icon change
I suggest we change this icon to something that covers the entire island (eg outline map), as currently it has the flag of the rebublic. See also Template talk:User_Ireland for renaming of that to cover just the rebublic, in line with the userboxes for wales,ni,england,scotland. MartinRe 12:47, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Accept. I am Irish, but I am not a citizen of the country which the flag icon represents. I find the exclusion insulting, but not surprising. --Mal 07:16, 15 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree we need something more inclusive, but I've removed the flag that was theresince having the banner of one not particularly pleasant branch of the Anglo-Norman nobility, which was responsible for a lot of trouble and mayhem in Tudor Ireland (see Desmond Rebellions, for instance - responsible for a lot of problems for my Corcaigh ancestors) is if anything more divisive. I've replaced it with the image from Ireland-stub (a shamrock leaf)... another option would be the map that's on Ireland-geo-stub. Grutness...wha?  12:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Agreed, I much prefer the shamrock, and that's the sort of symbol that people with Irish ancestry would associate with Ireland, imo. Good choice! MartinRe 12:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to start by saying I'd agree with a symbol of the shamrock as being acceptable.

But I'd like to point out that both the shamrock and the saltire both allude to Patrick, and the Patrick's Cross pre-dates any Norman Fitz-Person. Also, the Patrick saltire is an accepted, inclusive and non-sectarian symbol in Northern Ireland. Their has never been any problem with its use to represent the Ireland rugby team, and it was accepted as part of the new symbology for the PSNI. In Portadown last 17th of March, instead of a number of people flying Irish tricolours, we had many people flying Patrick flags. It is proposed that the Patrick flag be flown in place of any other flag(s) in the Patrick celebrations in Belfast this year. --Mal 13:17, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Those wee changes make all the difference Martin. Nice work. --Mal 13:54, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree about the cross being connected with St. Patrick in anything other than name. As a member of FOTW and a vexillologist I can tell you that there's been extensive research on the red saltire, and it dates only to its use as a banner by the Fitzgeralds. No actual banner was ever associated with Patrick prior to that time, and he was always symbolised just by the shamrock. Grutness...wha?  00:12, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

The saltire was taken from the Patrick Cross though, and predates its usage by the Fitzgeralds. --Mal 06:33, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm ok with the shamrock since it's definitely easily identifiable and doesn't represent either side of the politcal division. If anyone didn't like it though (I do agree it's a little cartoony and stereotypical), I did want to suggest instead (and I'm kinda surprised someone else hasn't already) that some form of the Celtic Harp could be used. Would anyone say that it has any modern political connotations that lean more one way than the other? If not, then I say, if it's good enough for Guinness, ... EvilSuggestions 04:16, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

How about the harp flag? Coemgenus 01:36, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Alternatives
Just to point out to those that might not know, that anyone that prefers a different image in any user box can subst the template and change the image link on their own page, which will change the image on just their page, and leave the template unchanged. There are people that believe you should always subst templates on user pages, as it reduces server load, and stops your user page being changed when a template is, but it has the disadvantage of meaning that people who add the template at different times may get slightly different userboxes.

To forstall any "double standards" comment, I'd like to point out that I'm only trying to ensure that the default userbox is as appropiate as possible. IOW, that "User Irish" means culture of the entire island (it had the flag of the republic), that User Ireland is location of the entire island, without preference. (which is why I created user Ireland Republic for those who live in RoI) I've made similar corrections to user scotland/scottish (not touching the flag, just ensuring the first was location, the latter nationality/culture, to be consistant with the rest of the UK) MartinRe 10:50, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree Martin. However, I suspect that this whole discussion may become moot, as there seems to be a drive at the moment by some sysops to delete whole categories of user boxes without warning.


 * I would suggest that users copy the templates into their own space just in case. They can then refer to the copies by changing their user pages.


 * I'm not sure how subst works just yet, but I'm all for anything that helps standardise, and even cut down on space(!).


 * The upshot is ... I fully expect culture and/or ethnic user boxes to disappear soon. --Mal 11:02, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I thought it was only POV boxes that were up for the chop? Nationality isn't a POV, I can't stop being Irish by changing my mind. :)
 * Brief summary of Subst:
 * without subst, the template is copied from the original every time it's used. This means the server has to work a little more, and changes to the template are automatically updated where the userbox is used (which can be both good and bad)
 * with subst - the template is copied from the original once when the page is saved. From then on, it ignores the template and displays as it was at that point, but can be edited locally.
 * In computer terms, a template is a shortcut (or symobolic link) to a file, a subst'd template is copying the file. MartinRe 11:15, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Aye, but some userboxes that haven't been POV have been deleted as part of a mass-deletion drive.


 * Thanks for the summary of subst btw - it sounds like Object Oriented versus .. erm .. something! --Mal 11:22, 18 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Or "By reference" vs "by value". MartinRe 13:09, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

4 Leaf Clover Unacceptable
4 Leaf Clovers aren't a representation of Irishness. They are a symbol of luck. People get this confused because the 3 leaf clover is a symbol of Ireland. Saint Patrick used a three leaf clover to explain the Trinity to the Druids...Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. That symbol represents Irish Christianity, and St. Patrick (the patron Saint). That's why on St. Paddy's day clovers are abundant...however, the 4 leaf variety is wholey unrelated to this topic. 4 leaf clovers represent luck...that's it. So, let's not help spread more misconception and use a 4 leaf clover to express our being Irish.

Please read the article entitled Shamrock for further evaluation of this topic.

Rowlan 17:29, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Your image is much nicer, anyway. --robz0r 21:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Good call Rowlan. --Mal 02:52, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Change "This user is of Irish ancestry" to "This user is Irish"
Please see Template talk:User ancestry Irish (so the discussion only happens in one place) Nat 14:39, 23 August 2007 (UTC)