Template talk:User United Kingdom/usagepoll

Template wording and usage poll
There is an ongoing debate regarding the usage and wording of this template, which stems from the fact that it was created in an inconsistent state: Thus the text suggested this was a nationality box while the category suggested it was a location box.
 * The original text read “This user comes from the United Kingdom”
 * The original category was Category:Wikipedians in the United Kingdom

There are four opinions as to the best solution to this problem, and these are summarised below. Users interested in the use of this template are encouraged to sign their name under the summary with which they agree with by typing #~ along with a brief summary of their reasons for agreement. If users have advanced comments to make, they are encouraged to do so in a seperately in the Further comments section. Signatures without included reasoning are liable to recieve a lower vote weight (i.e. their vote may not be fully credited during counting).

Users of this template are asked to be patient whilst the poll runs and not to make unnecessary content changes.

Proposal 1
Solution: Leave the box as it is. Example:

Category = Category:Wikipedians in the United Kingdom


 * Reasoning:
 * Least likely to create conflict...
 * ...it makes no assumptions about reasons for choosing this userbox.
 * The box they choose is the one that they will have.

People who support this solution

 * To vote, please use the format: #~ - &lt;comments&gt; 

Proposal 2
Solution: Remove the category. Example:

Category = None


 * Reasoning:
 * Would remove the contradiction.
 * Least disruptive manner of doing so.
 * People choose userboxes for their text, rather than category.
 * Many people will have been unaware they had been categorised as in the United Kingdom.
 * Most users would be unaffected by this solution.
 * Usage of categories as a whole in userboxes has been previously questioned.
 * Can be used as propaganda for pushing a point-of-view.
 * WP:UBP.
 * Nearly all other nations use comes from wording.
 * Changing text would be an inconsistent option.
 * User France -> "This user comes from France"
 * User NationState -> "This user comes from NationState"
 * User Germany, User USA, User Burkina Faso, User Greece, User Ireland Republic etc. etc.
 * A new template User United Kingdom resident has been set up for users who want a United Kingdom location box. This categorises them correctly and uses the phrase 'This user lives in the United Kingdom' which is more appropriate than the 'comes from' phrasing that User United Kingdom uses.

People who support this solution

 * To vote, please use the format: #~ - &lt;comments&gt; 


 * 1) Gsd2000 13:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC) - for same reason as Steve below. Voters should note that this isn't an either/or situation - there can be solutions for both UK residents and UK expats - it's about what to do with this particular template that people have on their page.
 * 2) SteveRwanda 13:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC) - I favour this or Proposal 4, since, as an expat who comes from the UK but doesn't live there, changing the text would mean I couldn't use this box any more, and I worry that other users may be similarly affected without being aware of it.
 * 3) Kevinalewis  :  (Talk Page) / (Desk)  15:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC) - prefer this over the last as it confuses coming from the UK with being British which are NOT the same thing. Another anomoly
 * 4) Lumos3 08:27, 9 April 2006 (UTC) The principle should be to let the user choose their own category. 1) Not everyone who comes from the UK lives there at the moment. 2) Not everyone who lives in the UK is British. 3) British is not how everyone born in the UK would wish to describe themselves.
 * 5) M0RHI 02:18, 10 April 2006 (UTC) The wording is concise and fitting with others. You can still be members of groups if you so wish. All-round win.
 * 6) mgekelly 16:08, 11 April 2006 (UTC) The only way that this userbox will cover me is with this solution - I am from the UK, but don't live there, and identify as English not British.
 * 7) Mike Beckham 20:31, 11 April 2006 (UTC) - as per above
 * 8) Mark 14:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposal 3
Solution: Change the text. Example:

Category = Category:Wikipedians in the United Kingdom


 * Reasoning:
 * Original purpose was to reflect location rather than nationality.
 * was used rather than or something similar.
 * Template was listed at Wikipedia:Userboxes/Location/United Kingdom.
 * Comes from was used in error.
 * The phrase is commonly but incorrectly, used to denote location as well as nationality.
 * User Country should be location, and User Nationality as origin.
 * A Scottish person not residing in Scotland would expect to use User Scottish rather than User Scotland.
 * Similarly, British ex-pats can use User British2 or User British, the latter of which has different styling to this userbox.
 * Rewording would be a clarification of the purpose of the template, rather than a change of that purpose.
 * Ex-pat people who may currently use this template to reflect nationality are already miscategorising themselves as living in the UK.
 * Most people fitting this description would be better suited to a more accurate template anyway.

People who support this solution

 * To vote, please use the format: #~ - &lt;comments&gt; 


 * 1) Hayter 14:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC) - My reasoning is above. I don't see changing the text as changing the meaning of the template since the original meaning was clearly to denote location. Clarifying this should not be a problem other than for people who are using the template incorrectly, and I would suspect the majority of such people would rather use a more accurate template.
 * 2) Robert H 21:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC) - I support idea 3 - because I like to know which of my fellow wikipedians live here; not that are from this country.
 * 3)  (aeropagitica)   22:15, 7 April 2006 (UTC) - Location does not necessarily connote identity.  Another userbox can be used to describe a user's nationality if they are expatriate in the United Kingdom.  This is a location userbox, any other usage is innacurate.
 * 4) Blastwizard 23:42, 7 April 2006 (UTC) I use this box on my personal page I am not British but have been resident in the United Kingdom for many years, this version of the box is more suitable for my personal case, but I suppose another box for specifying the British nationality should be created. Conversely, if the version "comes from" is conserved then another box "lives in" should be created.
 * 5) Mal 08:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC) - A new userbox has been created for British ex-pats. This userbox should be used in a similar manner to the userboxes for the constituent countries found on the Userboxes/Location/United Kingdom page. Furthermore, the term "comes from" often means "lives in" colloquially, and I believe it was this usage that was the original intent. The text was changed to "lives in" to remove ambiguity.
 * 6) Sikandarji 22:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC) This seems sensible to me as there ought to be a category, and this way box and category are in agreement. There ought, however, to be a simple 'British Wikipedian' userbox, for those who want to express nationality rather than location, and do not want to identify themselves as English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish.
 * 7) the Keith [[Image:Flag of Northern Ireland2.svg|30px]] 16:40, 9 April 2006 (UTC)  This text, I think, best fits the usage of the box, for people in the United Kingdom, there are other boxes for people who want to declare themselves as British, English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish. They are the nationality boxes, this should be a Location box, both for British in the UK and foreign nationals in the UK. the Keith  [[Image:Flag of Northern Ireland2.svg|30px]] 21:49, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 8) Bennity 11:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC) I agree with everything that Sikandarji said.
 * 9) Gilraen of Dorthonion AKA SophiaTalk TCF 21:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC) - it's useful for people to know your frame of reference and timezone
 * 10) Bazza 13:03, 11 April 2006 (UTC) Makes the template appear as it was originally intended.
 * 11) MightyWarrior 20:05, 12 April 2006 (UTC) - UK is commonly thought of as a location, rather than a nationality. British, English, Irish, Welsh, Scottish are the nationalities.
 * 12) jazzle 22:33, 18 April 2006 (UTC) - Agreed! Also, residing in a country can also indicate a choice, 'comes from' doesn't allow for choice.
 * 13) Con  Dem Talk 13:23, 15 April 2006 (UTC)  This is a location userbox. I live in the United Kingdom and come from the United Kingdom, but the template title best fits in with the others of its kind if it is changed to this proposed format.
 * 14) Roorback 20:13, 16 April 2006 (UTC) - I feel this is the most convenient overall, and I agree with MightyWarrior's reasoning.
 * 15) Aled D 13:06, 17 April 2006 (UTC) - This looks best, but really people, I think your time would be better spent improving articles than arguing over a little template.
 * 16) Ciriii 13:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)-The UK is not a nationality, it brings togther several other nationalities, it's purely a place.I thought that was clear really! Nobody is UKish are they?
 * Northern Irish Unionists are. Seriously. Mgekelly - Talk 08:03, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * No they're not. What on Earth are you talking about? --Mal 18:13, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Of course the UK has a nationality - 'British'. If you are a citizen of the United Kingdom, you are British citizen. The general prickliness and ignorance about nationality in the UK is a throwback to the Victorians and their interchangeable use of 'England' and 'Britain'. More constitutional history in schools, that's the answer! Peeper 11:49, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 1) MartinRe 18:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC) - The problem stems from the different meanings of the words "comes from". To some, it means where you live, to others it means ancestory/birth. To me it can mean either, depending on context, i.e. whether I'm travelling away from home, or at home, i.e. I understand it as "where were you before now?". Going online, I regard myself as away, hence "comes from" means "lives in", so I reckon the text change will remove some of that confusion. MartinRe 18:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Peeper 11:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC) I identify as British. My country is the United Kingdom and has been since 1980. But I was born in Cyprus, so I also 'come from' there. For me it's about simple clarity. I primarily identify as British and certainly not English, so I'd happily use a British nationality userbox as well. The UK is a multinational state so this solution seems best to me. (But it might raise the issue of whether all countries should have 'This user comes from X' (or 'This user is Xish') besides 'This user lives in X' (or do they already?)) Peeper 11:44, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) NP Chilla 12:40, 20 April 2006 (UTC) - It seems to make the most sense: those who live in the UK, but have not done so their whole lives, can use it as well.

Discounted votes:

 * 1) The Giant Puffin There is already one for people who live in the UK, this is the best solution ; Note - this user appears not to have had the box on their page &mdash; SteveRwanda 17:14, 12 April 2006 (UTC)
 * This user is illegible to vote as they have not used the box on their userpage or contributed to the userbox before 1 Apr 2006. If it is believed this vote has been incorrectly discounted, please provide evidence below. Ian13/ talk 10:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Proposal 4
Solution: Change the category. Example:

Category = Category:British Wikipedians


 * Reasoning:
 * Would remove the contradiction.
 * Yet retain categorisation for consistancy with other userboxes.
 * People choose userboxes for their text, rather than category.
 * Many people will have been unaware they had been categorised as in the United Kingdom.
 * Most users would be unaffected by this solution.
 * And if they choose the userbox for its wording, it would prevent ex-pats being wrongly categorized.
 * Nearly all other nations use comes from wording.
 * Changing text would be an inconsistent option.
 * User France -> "This user comes from France"
 * User NationState -> "This user comes from NationState"
 * User Germany, User USA, User Burkina Faso, User Greece, User Ireland Republic etc. etc.
 * A new template User United Kingdom resident has been set up for users who want a United Kingdom location box. This categorises them correctly and uses the phrase 'This user lives in the United Kingdom' which is more appropriate than the 'comes from' phrasing that User United Kingdom uses.

People who support this solution

 * To vote, please use the format: #~ - &lt;comments&gt; 


 * 1) Gsd2000 13:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC) - for same reason as Steve below. Voters should note that this isn't an either/or situation - there can be solutions for both UK residents and UK expats - it's about what to do with this particular template that people have on their page.
 * 2) SteveRwanda 13:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC) - I favour this or Proposal 2, since, as an expat who comes from the UK but doesn't live there, changing the text would mean I couldn't use this box any more, and I worry that other users may be similarly affected without being aware of it.
 * 3)  Philc  T+C 16:23, 7 April 2006 (UTC) tactical voting, i want their to be a category, I dont mind much else, and the one in favour of no category was leading.
 * 4)  Jxb311  talk 18:52, 10 April 2006 (UTC) There should be a category, and to be consistent with other userboxes the wording of the userbox should not be changed.
 * 5) Khukri 13:22, 11 April 2006 (UTC) - Same as Steve above, British expat and proud of my heritage but prefer to avoid the jingoistic connotations that can be implied by being English, Scots, etc.
 * 6) Captain scarlet 11:28, 12 April 2006 (UTC) - Wording in this version is more appropriate.
 * 7) Lcarsdata Talk 09:25, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 8) Mark 14:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 9) Historian 22:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 10) DJR (Talk) 22:24, 17 April 2006 (UTC) - expats and residents can both use the userbox and be applicable to the category with this one.
 * 11) MNewnham 18:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Further Comments

 * Extended discussion should take place on the talk page.
 * The following user catagorised themselves as supporting anything but achange of text.
 * UKPhoenix79 03:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC) - I do believe that there are many people out there that don't necessarily see themselves as British but do come from the United Kingdom. Personally I do see myself as British but I don't see why a template that has always  been about people that come from the UK should be changes to living in the UK ? People go by what the text in the userbox says not its category! After all, there's already a template says that one lives in the UK. I believe that the most accurate category would have to be . Yet, I see no problem with other different categories be it another made up one or none at all. Right now the vote is spit almost evenly with half wanting the text to remain the same and the other half looking for it to be changed. The only difference between those voting for the text to remain the same is that they are split between having no category and creating a special category. I am voting with those that want to keep the text the same, regardless of the category associated with it.


 * The text was changed to remove ambiguity. I should say that a proposal was made that the text be changed in line with the other similar userboxes for UK regions.. to remove ambiguity. --Mal 21:09, 23 April 2006 (UTC)