Template talk:User WikiProject Argentina

User WikiProject Argentina template
I'm writing you regarding the User WikiProject Argentina template, that many of us contributors use in our user pages. I believe it to have slowly degradated to something that doesn't represent the common ideo of the users that participate of this project. The last version by reads: I have no idea what does the National Defense School, or the Military of Argentina, have to do with the contributions to the Argentine related articles. It was pointed out that User uk wikipedian has a similar format, but I couldn't care less about it.
 * "The motto of the WPAR is Firmiter Unum Pro Patria, which translates to, "Firmly united for the Motherland". This motto reflects the desire to dramatically improve the quality and standards of Argentina-related articles on Wikipedia, and is a reference to the Argentine National Defense School."

The purpose of this project is to contribute to Argentine related in general, and I see any connection with military out of place. You don't even need to be Argentine to participate, as contributor, so nationalist reference such as "Firmly united for the Motherland" seams to me out of place. I suggest we re.write the template to a more general profile; I wouln't use it as it is right now, because I don't feel represented by it. Mariano (t/c) 11:01, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, it would be nice to contact me before posting here, just a matter of education. If you didn't noticed before, the previous motto of the template was Semper Excelsius, but I changed it to reflect a more "Argentine" sense, exactly because this is the WikiProject Argentina. What do you want, a E Pluribus Unum slogan? You're insulting me saying that is a "connection with the military" or "nationalist propaganda", frankly this took me a significant amount of time and effort; but if you feel that is a "degradation" the inclusion of an official Argentine motto just delete it all. --Darklegions 16:51, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I see both points, and I think we can solve this creating a simple poll with different mottos at Template talk:User WikiProject Argentina; it'll be interesting, surely will help in the re-organisation of the template, and the motto chosen will be a little more "democratic". Personally I like the motto of the UNT, Pedes In Terra Ad Sidera Versus, or maybe the UNC one, In Spiritus Remigio Vita; also they reflect a more encyclopedic idea =). Peace guys, Wikipedia is not a battleground. What do you two think? --OneEuropeanHeart 17:07, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Why must we have a motto? I suspect any "authentically Argentine" motto will have a POV problem, and more general mottos might be, well, simply nice phrases. Simply having a precedent ("other projects have mottos") is not a good reason to feel obligated to have a motto. The motto-less original form of the template was simple and informative enough. And finally, I can't imagine something less typically Argentine than a Latin phrase. Now, "Los hermanos sean unidos, que ésa es la ley primera" could just be it... :) --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 17:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * We aren't "obligated" to use a motto, IMO it's only a good idea. And sincerely, I'd prefer In Spiritus Remigio Vita instead of "Los hermanos sean unidos, que ésa es la ley primera"; it's quite nicer, you can't deny it =). --OneEuropeanHeart 18:22, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather NOT have a motto. If this is not possible, at least let's have one closely related to our culture, that can be shared by everybody: para un argentino no hay nada mejor que otro argentino should do it. And, if it has to be Latin, nothing better than Ego puto in horto meo User:Ejrrjs says What? 19:10, 23 March 2006 (UTC)


 * What are your reasons for that? BTW, Para un argentino... isn't a motto, is an essay. --Darklegions 02:20, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm also against any motto. As I stated at the beggining of this discussion, many non-Argentine users are contributors at this project, and they need not any Argentine motto. The purpose of the Project is to create and improve the Argentina related articles, that's it. Mariano (t/c) 08:22, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Of course you're against it, you created this discussion! As OneEuropeanHeart, Ejrrjs, and Pablo D. Flores' purposals, we must have one related to our culture and Wikipedia's encyclopedic idea, without compromising other foreign users' membership -- but not forgetting, of course, that this is still the WP Argentina. Frankly, I really don't understand why you feel so disturbing this idea; if we can't gather consensus through discussion we can create a poll, as OneEuropeanHeart said. --Darklegions 19:09, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Hello to all! I'm new in WPAR but not in Wikipedia, and I'd like to support the idea of a motto, why not? Have a good day! --ShiningEyes 20:50, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * As of now, the best argument I can present against the idea of having a motto is that we're arguing over it. Darklegions, I didn't propose a motto, I just mentioned half-joking that the famous sentence from Martín Fierro would be better (in my view) than a Latin phrase. We did not have a motto before added it, and I think we can live without one, especially when we're still, as I said long ago, cuatro gatos locos and we've all better things to do, like writing articles. For the record, I was indifferent about this before, but I'm now definitely against having a motto. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 22:20, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Err, it wasn't Darklegions, it was me =P I completly agree with you, we must focus on writing articles; as stated before, I consider this only a good idea. Of course we can live without one, but it'd be a shame the loss of this purposal; there are a lot of interesting Latin phrases and mottos (take a look) and I think we can choose one satisfactory to all parties &mdash; at least En Unión y Libertad! =D --OneEuropeanHeart 23:24, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Let me clarify: I'd rather NOT have a motto, much less a Latin one. Nobody in Argentina knows that language (but "El Colegio" alumni, of course). User:Ejrrjs says What? 00:39, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Excuse me? AFAIK you're opinion was already stated, what's your problem with me? Or I can't express mine 'cause you'll censor me? --ShiningEyes 04:33, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, wrong indentation :-( It was a rebuttal to Darklegions' comment regading my position. User:Ejrrjs says What? 18:23, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

What now? Shall we go for a voting or we agree on having no-motto? Mariano (t/c) 08:11, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, you don't stated any reason for the deletion, so I don't think we "agree on having no-motto". --Darklegions 21:14, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

If no consensus is reached, I will suggest this motto: En Unión y Libertad; this one is less controversial and sounds nice. When a subject is controversial, a third option should be taken into account. Mxcatania 14:37, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The following is an archived voting poll and related discussion. Please do not modify it. 

Poll
This is an informal poll. Please vote Yes or No to the question "Should WikiProject Argentina have a motto?". If you vote "yes", you can additionally state what, in your opinion, would be a good motto. If "yes" wins, we'll have another poll to choose a motto. If you vote "no", understand that it means "no motto at all", not "not that motto". Mention your reasons in brief, but please don't write a long paragraph right there beside your vote, and don't just comment on other votes.

This poll will remain open for a week (until and including 4 April).

Yes

 * 1) Yes. It'd be a shame the loss of this purposal; there are a lot of interesting mottos and I think we can choose one satisfactory to all parties. --OneEuropeanHeart 02:32, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Yes. It's a good idea, if other WPs can do it, why we can't? --ShiningEyes 02:50, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Yes. Same reasons as OneEuropeanHeart and ShiningEyes. --  Coat of Arms  ( talk )  03:25, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Yes. I like the motto, it gives a sense of identity. --San Marcos 03:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) Yes. Per all above. --Darklegions 03:48, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 6) Yes Of course. Mexicans have the motto "Si se Puede", Puerto Ricans have "De aqui, como el coqui!" and so why not one for this wikiproject? Something that reflects our pride of being Hispanic and Argentinos' pride of being Argentine. Antonio Diego Armando Martin
 * 7) Yes. Having a motto does NOT mean that we must choose between the motto or the contributions in Wikipedia, obviously we can do both things. I'd also like to note the comments by OneEuropeanHeart and San Marcos, we can choose a motto satisfactory to all parties and the chosen one will really give us a sense of identity. --Nkcs 10:54, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 8) Yes. Same reasons as AntonioMartin. Mxcatania 23:05, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

No

 * 1) No. No motto will be good for everyone, and we have better things to do. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) No A WikiProject need not be linked to a Nationality; not all contributors to this project are Argentine. Secondly, finding a motto that would fit all might be imposible. Mariano (t/c) 05:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) No For reasons above, there are better things to be doing and the Project Page states the aims clearly enough. Mtiedemann 09:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Strong No the only good motto is estamos como una motto User:Ejrrjs says What? 20:21, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you state a more viable reason, since you voted a "Strong No"? --Nkcs 17:23, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Comments
I moved the page from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Argentina and created "Yes", "No", and "Comments" sections. --OneEuropeanHeart 02:27, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
 * In any case, I'm not very proud of being Argentinean, anyway User:Ejrrjs says What? 20:22, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps I'm not satisfied of the Argentine Government, but this doesn't mean that I'm not very proud of being Argentinean; we have a wonderful culture, beautiful places, a great history, five Nobel Prizes, etc. If you didn't noticed before, all countries have its own problems, even the First World ones. BTW, is this an answer to Mxcatania's vote? I'll move this to the "comments" section. --Darklegions 02:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Then why do you log in as an Argentine, Ejrrjs? --Nkcs 17:27, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ejrrjs (as this doesn't seem related to a "motto purposal"), please remember that Wikipedia is not a forum; in any case, this page is exclusively for discussing changes to the template. --ShiningEyes 02:34, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't mean to tell you what you should feel, but you will be Argentine the rest of your life, Ejrrjs. Here in the United States many people hate Hispanics yet I have been confused as being White (as in "Gringo". although I hate that word, being racist) and I tell them to not confuse the "real red blood" (read Hispanic) :) Cause after all I can never change my origin so I choose to be very proud of where I came from and my race. Antonio Chicaricachenitoyano Martin

When this'll finish? In 2 days, maybe? --Nkcs 17:31, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Please do not move my comments around; they get dizzy and so do I. ShiningEyes, my comment was related to the need of a motto to show our pride, so it was completely on topic. It was an answer to my friend Antonio. Nkcs, I log as ejrrjs. I identify as an Argentinean because somebody invited me after I added somed Argentine-related stuff. As Antonio points out I cannot avoid being Argentine (unless I opt to a different citenzenship and renounce the previous one) Darklegions, I do not agree with you, but I'll keep it short because of WP:NOT To summarize (and to justify my vote above): I still can't see the need or convenience of a motto, take exception on the proposals so far and think that the whole matter is divisive and strays us from the goal of writing an encyclopedia. Thanks for your attention, and good night, User:Ejrrjs says What? 20:32, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Ejrrjs, you had the same issue with ShiningEyes, when you're answering a question do it after it and not at the end at the page, i.e: you're posting directly after Nkcs' comments, so I'd assume that you're aswering him, which AFAIK isn't correct. Catch the idea? --Darklegions 22:42, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

This is not an answer to anyone in particular. While WP:NOT a forum, there's a reason why this is called a talk page. That said, I suggest that everybody thinks twice before engaging in a discussion over heavy issues like nationalistic pride, racism, etc. The major reason why I don't want to have a motto is the same as Ejrrjs has stated, i. e. that it's divisive. This very discussion is so far the best proof of that. For the record, I'm neither proud or ashamed of being an Argentinian, and I refuse any kind of racial categorization wherever it comes from. One good thing I can say about being an Argie is that we're not required to indicate "race" in the census. No offense, but being proud of one's "race" or birthplace is like being proud of having long eyelashes. --Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 16:35, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * On the contrary, I don't see any problem here rather than a common dispute about changes in the template. Wikipedia itself states that "the main method for resolving disputes is discussion", and as far I as know this always involves a pluralism of ideas, which is in fact a division. --Darklegions 01:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

''The above is preserved as an archive of the poll and its discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made after this section.''


 * The following is a list of proposals for the motto. It is kept for archival. Please do not modify it. 

Poll: which motto?
Well, the day isn't over but there hasn't been any more activity so I've closed the poll. Exactly 2/3 of the voters (8 out of 12) want to have a motto, so now we have to choose one.

You have until Friday (April 7) to make a list of proposed mottos below (unless someone needs more time, that is). You can add more than one motto. If you want to justify or explain, do so after each motto you add. Don't campaign for your motto, just explain it. Be brief.

Proposals

 * 1) Ad Astra Per Aspera, To The Stars Through Hardships &mdash; reflects a key wikipedian desire and it's also the motto of the 5th Air Strike Group (I'd choose Firmiter Unum Pro Patria if weren't so many problems about it). --Darklegions 02:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Argentinos, ¡a las cosas!, obviously. Taragüí @ 10:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) En Unión y Libertad (United and Free). I ask any Latin speaker to translate this into that language. I think this motto sounds good in every language. Mxcatania 13:15, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) My Latin isn't perfect, but I think it's In Unitas et Libertas. BTW, I completly agree with you, I think it's more important the meaning of the motto than the language used. --OneEuropeanHeart 16:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) In foedere et libertate is the motto in Latin, as per Latin WP. Mxcatania
 * 6) Fœdere (it's œ, not oe) means "alliance" and "confederation", and is more related to an union of nations (fœderatus: allied, confederated) while unitas is a closer approach to an unity sense, which as far as I know is the motto's idea. --OneEuropeanHeart 01:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 7) Pedes In Terra Ad Sidera Visus, Foot on the Ground, Sight at the Sky &mdash; c'mon it's a great one, also it reflects a more encyclopedic idea since it's the motto of the UNT. --OneEuropeanHeart 16:55, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 8) Semper Excelsius, Always Higher &mdash; the very first motto of the WPAR, also the slogan of the K.A.V. Lovania Leuven. --Nkcs 00:02, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

After everyone's done adding proposals, we'll open a new section and vote there.

Comments
What about Ego puto in horto meo? ("I think in my garden")?

Ok, ok, I'll shut up... Mariano (t/c) 06:29, 6 April 2006 (UTC) ''The above is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. ''


 * The following is a list of proposals for the motto. It is kept for archival. Please do not modify it. 

Final voting
Place your vote after the motto you like most (using the example syntax as shown below). Don't write "yes", "no", "support"; just sign with your username. Don't add more comments in this section. It's one vote per person only. You can vote if and only if you're a member of the WikiProject. You can also change your vote as many times as you want to, before we finish.

We will close the poll and count the votes next Tuesday evening / Wednesday morning (April 12). This is a first past the post vote; if there's a tie, we'll go to segunda vuelta with the most voted mottos. I suggest (please comment elsewhere if you disagree) that if no motto is a clear winner we abandon the idea (by clear winner I mean getting at least half of the votes, getting substantially more than any of the rest, and getting more than 3 votes).

Mottos

 * Ad Astra Per Aspera (To The Stars Through Hardships)
 * 1) Darklegions 02:31, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Nkcs 02:50, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) ShiningEyes 03:41, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 4)   Coat of Arms  ( talk )  06:20, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) OneEuropeanHeart 05:41, 9 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Argentinos, ¡a las cosas!
 * En Unión y Libertad (if it must be in Latin, it should be In unitate et libertate; unitas and libertas are in the nominative case, while in takes an ablative complement. Taragüí @ 16:15, 9 April 2006 (UTC))
 * 1) Mxcatania 15:08, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Mariano (t/c) 06:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Mtiedemann 10:26, 10 April 2006 (UTC) Sorry for this, but at the opening of the voting you weren't part of the WikiProject and you aren't now; as stated by Pablo D. Flores, "you can vote if and only if you're a member of the WikiProject".  We must do this to prevent vote tampering, that unfortunatly has becamed a common problem in Wikipedia. Hope you'll understand my friend =( --Nkcs 16:40, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Pedes In Terra Ad Sidera Visus (Foot on the Ground, Sight at the Sky)
 * Semper Excelsius

Comments
I think the idea of abandon if no motto wins is inappropiate now, and goes against the 8 users who supported this with a poll. PS: I changed the title, only for clarification =) --Darklegions 02:26, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * IMO it's better to say "getting at least half of the votes, getting substantially more than any of the rest, or getting more than 3 votes", otherwise it'd difficult to achieve this. --ShiningEyes 04:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, yes, it's a bit difficult to put it in words. I still think we shouldn't have a motto, but this is unrelated to my opinion. What I meant was, if the proposed mottos get, say, 1, 2, 2, 3 and 2 votes respectively, then the one which got 3 votes is not a clear winner. Since this is a one-time, one-vote-per-person process, nobody will be able to change their vote later in order to support a second favorite, and in the example I gave the motto with 3 votes will win. Fortunately this kind of scattered voting seems not be happening right now. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:53, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
 * "I suggest (please comment elsewhere if you disagree) that if no motto is a clear winner..." Pablo D. Flores states it clearly, this is only a suggestion, at least for now. --Nkcs 16:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

''The above is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. ''

Reminder
This is a project, not a nationalistic forum (altough you should remember that those who betray the motherland are in the deepest circle of hell, see it. I think we could add this reminder in the template. Argentino 21:51, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If we must do it, let's finish first the current issue =) --Darklegions 02:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Motto poll result
The proposal to adopt the motto Ad Astra Per Aspera (To The Stars Through Hardships) has won in the poll conducted above. Sorry folks, I went on vacation and forgot to close it. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:23, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * You're not the only who forgot this =) Thanks for the help mate! --OneEuropeanHeart 02:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * If I may be allowed to express my disappointment at the result, I'd say that everybody having forgotten about the poll is a sign that we're busy with encyclopedic work rather than arguing about a Latin phrase, and the arguments above could have been avoided by letting everybody subscribe to the project without being labelled with a motto.


 * I don't dislike the motto that has been chosen, but I do dislike the reference. Since I feel it's always best to expose one's bias, I'll say that I don't like any reference to the military, especially the Argentine military, or any implication of patriotism or heroism related to war, the military, or anything that implies blowing up other people. I won't make a problem out of this, but I wanted you guys to know because I'm taking the WikiProject tag out of my userpage (though I will leave the link to WP:AR and promote the project whenever I find a suitable spot for it). &mdash;Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 14:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I also don't feel represented by the template, so I kinda 'bypassed it' as you can see in my talk page. Hope nobody gets upset about it. Mariano (t/c) 15:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Hey, no need of such comments, my change was in good faith, sorry. No problem guys, I'll remove it ASAP =) Have a good day. --OneEuropeanHeart 18:58, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Only came across this today. I would probably prefer no motto in the template. The template should represent all project members. Otherwise it is used less. Tobias Conradi (Talk) 16:41, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Same as Tobias here, too bad I laid low for a while and couldn't participate. I will continue being part of the project but I'd rather remove the template from my userpage. I don't really like the motto idea, and if we have to have one, let it be in spanish (and preferrably not related to the military either...). Sebastian Kessel Talk 06:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, I took a page of Mariano's book... but you get the gist of it. Sebastian Kessel Talk 06:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal below. Please do not modify it. 

New proposal
Many users have expressed their disagreement with having a motto, the comments above are a clear example of that. As stated on its main page, the WikiProject Argentina aims toward a democratic and uncensored style of editing, a group where all its members can explain their opinions freely and continuously.

Given that, I'm officially opening this new poll, a poll that hopefully will end with all the discomfort about this issue. My proposal is:
 * 1) If the poll is approved, the WikiProject Argentina will have no motto neither on the main page nor on its template.
 * 2) If the poll is approved, the WikiProject Argentina will change its template to an userbox-like one, without mottos, essays or any kind of POV statements.
 * 3) The new userbox will have a category where all the members of the WikiProject Argentina will be automatically included. The said category will be created within the scope of Category:WikiProject Argentina, as per common standard procedure.

I have created a first impression of the future userbox:

Please remember that only members of the WikiProject Argentina can vote. The poll will officially end on 23:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC), exactly 7 days after its opening.

Have a nice day, &mdash;Aucun effort n'est trop grand 23:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes

 * 1) Yes. &mdash;Aucun effort n'est trop grand 23:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 2) Yes. Lovely. Martín (saying/doing) 23:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 3) Yes. Although I haven’t been present in past discussions, I have read them, and I think this would be the most appropriate thing to do. CROWDUDE 00:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 4) Yes. Good idea.  —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 01:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 5) Oui. Great icon!! Mariano (t/c) 08:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
 * 6) Ok. Icon looks nice, and the userbox takes less space. Sebastian Kessel Talk 15:05, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * 7) Si I think this is great solution. Muchas gracias that you did the work to create the box. Saludos a todos! Tobias Conradi (Talk) 15:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Comments
Even though I voted yes, I would like to state that being a democratic project also means that he have to abide by the majority. A majority wanted a motto, and we should still keep it. The userbox is a fantastic alternative for people like me and we shouldn't choose it as a replacement for the current box but instead as an alternative. As I said, part of being democratic is respecting pasts votes, especially when they are so recent. Just my to 0.02 australes. Sebastian Kessel Talk 15:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Totally agree, keeping the motto won't hurt anyone. Perhaps we should create another template at Template:Userbox WikiProject Argentina, and keep this one as an second alternative for the original supporters of the idea. By the way, has anyone any problem with including the motto on the WikiProject's main page? &mdash;Aucun effort n'est trop grand 02:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you know this mail by Dave and Jimbo?. In school we learned that in Germany even a majority has not the right to do everything. From various fields in politics 50% and 66% or even more majorities are known to be needed in certain fields. Allways take into account: Out of 100 people would you be willing to let 49 leave, just because 51 want something? IMO this is not good. Hopefully WPAR will very often have consensus decisions. My opinion on the motto: keep it simple and direct, I prefer no motto. Concentrate on content improvement and creation. But at the end I don't have that strong objections. abrazos a todos - Tobias Conradi (Talk) 15:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, I'll delete the motto. If someone want to restore it again, just say it here and I'll put it on the template as soon as possible. Have a nice day, &mdash;Aucun effort n'est trop grand 06:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. ''