Template talk:Visual arts by indigenous peoples of the Americas

What about those who draw?
Shouldn't there be a category for indigenous visual artists whose primary form is drawing? As the article on Drawing says: "Drawing is a form of visual expression and is one of the major forms within the visual arts." "Illustrators" doesn't work across the board because "An Illustrator is a graphic artist who specializes in enhancing writing by providing a visual representation that corresponds to the content of the associated text." DieWeisseRose (talk) 00:50, 20 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay, I decided to be bold and created a new category, populated it, and added it to the template. "Native American drawing artists" is kind of klunky, I'll admit, but I think it works better than "Native American draftsmen" or "Native American drawers". DieWeisseRose (talk) 01:18, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Proposing rename
Since North American Indigenous visual artists doesn't exist and the scope of the template doesn't correspond to North America anyway, can this be named to Template:Visual arts by indigenous peoples of the Americas? -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:07, 10 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * It's been a week. The only person to comment on the move (in the section below) favored the move, so I'm going for it. -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:36, 17 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Restructuring
Can the link to categories be chucked, since they are both redundant, overlap each other, have gaps, and are much better addressed by List of Native American artists and List of indigenous artists of the Americas cover Native artists in a much better fashion? Then the template could link to existing articles. Organization would have to be determined, perhaps something along the lines of "By region" (Northwest Coast art, Paraguayan Indian art), "by Time period" (Pre-Columbian art), "by Media" (Ceramics of indigenous peoples of the Americas), and/or "By Culture" (Inuit art, Coast Salish art), and/or "By Culture and media". Articles by both culture and media (Native American jewelry, Navajo weaving Chilkat weaving). The challenge is that we don't have organized articles of the broad-ranged subjects that we need. -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:07, 10 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * Every single Indigenous American art article can't fit on the template, so another challenge will be to determine where the cut-off line would be. Articles about individual works of art, art museums, and individual artists should probably not be included. Articles that might be on the fence of obscurity would include specific artforms, such as Inuksuk, Zemi, Dush-toh, Heishe, Hair drop, God's eye, Pipe bag, etc. -Uyvsdi (talk) 03:55, 11 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * I think the categories should go, and important individuals need to be added. Links to articles in a wider time span, specific regions, and articles concerning certain specific artists and artforms are needed. Nampeyo is an example of an important representative individual Hopi who should be included, whereas her daughter, granddaughter, and her great-granddaughter might not be included. Other important examples are Rufino Tamayo, R.C. Gorman, Fritz Scholder, Jaune Quick-To-See Smith, Fred Kabotie, among others...Modernist (talk) 12:17, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Perusing through the various categories of indigenous American and Native American art shows that there's way too many articles to possibly include in a template and certainly too many to include individual artists. Linking to List of Native American artists and List of indigenous artists of the Americas covers the individual artists very nicely (and every individual biography can link to them in the "see also" as appropriate (obviously non-US artists don't have to link to the US list). I agree that almost everyone you listed is important, but so are many, many other artists and determining whose the most important would be a subjective nightmare. How about the art forms linked listed above - would they make the cut or not? Really, this template is cart before the horse, because we don't have the top-tiered broad subject articles we need, so to that end, I started Textile arts of indigenous peoples of the Americas. If folks are hellbent on having an indigenous American art template at least we can make it as practical and useful as possible. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:18, 11 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * I agree with you that more relevant articles are needed and the few that exist - make the template relevant. I also agree that this template was ill-conceived, premature, created without a full grip on the subject and is loaded up with categories that should not be included at all. That said, and if the template survives then lets dump the categories, make it smaller for now and add relevant articles as they are created...Modernist (talk) 18:24, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, the title could be the top-tier article Visual arts by indigenous peoples of the Americas, the second-tier would be broad ranged articles Pre-Columbian art, List of indigenous artists of the Americas, Timeline of Native American art history (probably needs to be renamed), etc. Then the remaining articles could possibly be categorized by "Media," "Region," "Culture," then what to do with articles by both Culture and Media/Materials (i.e. Haida argillite carvings)? Would those articles be too specific to include? And then the individual artforms... Articles that are mostly but not exclusively Native art (e.g. Gourd art) should probably not be included. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:35, 11 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * I like the idea of the name change, and adding specific articles. By dumping out the categories we gain space. I think we should only include articles that are exclusively Native American for now...Modernist (talk) 18:39, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a completely different approach. Do you want to make the template exclusive to the US? That would certainly shrink it down a lot. The title/main article would then point to List of Native American artists. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:42, 11 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * No - it's semantics - for want of a better descriptive - not just the US...Modernist (talk) 18:44, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess indigenous peoples of the Americas is the better descriptive to use...Modernist (talk) 18:46, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
 * How about make the cutoff line at "Region" and "Culture" and leave out any smaller, more specific articles? That would then pave the way for more focused templates, such as one based on Northwest Coast art, instead of trying to cram it all in here. -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi

I agree with a lot of the points made so far (put artists in lists), categorize the items, don't try and get all related articles in the template, etc.

A couple of questions:
 * 1) I'm wondering what the time frame is for consideration, for instance would you want to include early works: rock art, petroglyphs, pictograms, early personal ornamentation (beading, etc.).  Should art from early puebloan societies be included?
 * 2) What would you think about categories that would group:  Canada and Alaska (First Nations, Haida, Inuit, Eskimo, Alaska natives, Metis - Canada, Kwakwaka'wakw), United States (Native Americans in US, Navajo, and other US nations), Mexico (Mexican, Mayan, Mestizo)?
 * 3) What should be done with groups that cross over country borders, such as Coast Salish?
 * 4) Another option could be to group them by location/lifesytle:  Pacific Coast, Plains, Puebloan, Artic, etc.--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:02, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Per the above: I think we should include early Pueblo; pre-Columbian, pictograms, petroglyphs and rock art. I like grouping via location if we can figure it out. There are lots of crossovers so we should use judgement. I don't like categories - too complicated...Modernist (talk) 20:27, 14 January 2012 (UTC)


 * What would you think about using the zones defined for pre-European content here: Nordamerikanische Kulturareale en.png
 * Artic: Inuit
 * Subartic: Indigenous peoples of the Subarctic (Eskimo, Alaska natives, First Nations, Metis - Canada)
 * Pacific Northwest Coast: Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast (Haida, Coast Salish, Kwakwaka'wakw)
 * California: Indigenous peoples of California
 * Great Basin: Indigenous peoples of the Great Basin
 * Plateau: Indigenous peoples of the Northwest Plateau
 * Plains - Plains Indians (Cheyenne, Arapaho, Kiowa, Metis - United States)
 * Northeast Woodlands: Indigenous peoples of the Northeastern Woodlands
 * Southeast Woodlands: Indigenous peoples of the Southeastern Woodlands
 * Southwest: Southwest peoples (Navajo, Apache, Pueblo, Ute, etc.)
 * Mexico (Aridoamerica · Mesoamerica): Indigenous peoples of Mexico (Mexican, Mayan, Mestizo)


 * This would need to be built out more to represent the various areas, but it gives you an idea.--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:54, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Made edits above per Template:Cultural areas of indigenous North Americans--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * If interested, See also Classification of indigenous peoples of the Americas--CaroleHenson (talk) 02:14, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No reason for a time limit, especially since people still make petroglyphs/rock art today (like a Navajo friend of mine from Canyon de Chelly). We've been predominantly using cultural classifications systems in classifying indigenous American articles, based on the Smithsonian's and NMAI's models with variations as needed; however, the existing art articles aren't really based on cultural areas. We should focus on existing articles. As stated before, broad based articles are lacking. Gourd art was discussed above a media commonly but not exclusively employed by indigenous American artists; the same would go the petroglyph and pictogram articles. Since they are not specifically about indigenous American art, should they be included in the template?

Here's a basic proposal for a new template with only broad-based articles.

Native American jewelry only covers the US, so it could be removed if need be. SECC article isn't exclusively about art so it could also be removed. -Uyvsdi (talk) 06:18, 15 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * Per the above, good job, and I agree we should try to only include what is exclusively indigenous American art in the template; maybe eventually in a new article we can combine petroglyphs, pictograms, and rock art both modern and historical in the Americas. Something like: Rock carvings of the Indigenous peoples of the Americas...Modernist (talk) 13:44, 15 January 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree, looks good. Two things you may want to consider is that there are a lot of Native American cultures (See Indigenous peoples of California for example) and the list gets longer if it were to include Archaic and Post-Archaic cultures.  One thought (haven't put too much thought into it) is to have them roll up to the regional articles. (Currently the cultures in the template contain sub-artic, artic, Pacific NW and Mexico fairly well, not so much for the other regions).


 * There's an article called Prehistoric art that could possibly be used as a starting point for Prehistoric art in North America and inserted in the "Surveys" section to cover the rock painting, etchings, basketry, pottery, etc. from prehistoric times.--CaroleHenson (talk) 14:48, 15 January 2012 (UTC)
 * As far as creating regional templates, Northwest Coast art has enough articles and is ready to go – probably the only one at this point (except Mayan Civilization and Adena, Hopewell, and Mississippian cultures, which have excellent templates and articles – not exclusively art but art is well covered). I started Indigenous peoples of California so am aware of it ;) Since there aren't articles for every cultures' art (on contrary, extremely few have articles), they don't have to be listed here. Rock art of indigenous peoples of the Americas would definitely be a good article to create. Precolumbian art is woefully inadequate and could stand to be expanded. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:59, 15 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Went ahead and made the switch, since at least we all agree to eliminate the categories. I took the liberty of adding an image – trying to find something simple and graphic. -Uyvsdi (talk) 00:58, 17 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * Good start...Modernist (talk) 01:02, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Cool! I like the addition of the image. Let me know if you want help with something.--CaroleHenson (talk) 04:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Writing all the articles to fill it up? :) -Uyvsdi (talk) 04:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi

You're funny! I'm not ready to tackle writing all the articles to fill the template up, but do you have a couple of ideas of articles that are needed and we can start there.--CaroleHenson (talk) 05:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we have a great central template now - with lots of potential for new articles; now all we need to do is find the time...Modernist (talk) 05:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed. I'm not sure if some of the topics that have been discussed are a good place to start - or there's another plan based upon the new sections of the template, but I'll sit tight.  Good to be in contact with you again, Modernist!!--CaroleHenson (talk) 07:06, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Hi Carole I missed you too. Looking at the template I'm surprised to see that we don't have articles on the art of the Southwest. Something covering Navajo weaving and pottery, Hopi pottery, Hopi weaving, Kachina's, Acoma pottery, etc. in a larger Art of the Southwest type article...Modernist (talk) 13:48, 17 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Yep, sounds good! I'll start collecting info.--CaroleHenson (talk) 16:51, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Navajo weaving is a great article that can be linked to in your new article, but I'll take this to your talk pages. Cheers, -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:44, 17 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * (outdent) This "new" template is much better already.  I'm glad to see that a XfD of any sort actually resulted in some tangible improvements! MSJapan (talk) 17:53, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

BTW other templates such as Template:Jimi Hendrix include catagories in the template. The catagory is linked to on the left and the contents of the catagory is also displayed in the template itself. Catagory is also mentioned on the bottom of the template. This could be an example of how to use catagories in the template.Msruzicka (talk) 20:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Have you checked out either List of Native American artists or List of indigenous artists of the Americas? They are both linked by the template and direct users to artist's articles with information about media, tribal affiliation, and birth and death dates. -Uyvsdi (talk) 18:03, 19 January 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi