Template talk:Welcome-India

How do we welcome India editors then?
With reference to the removal of the last line of the template, do you have any alternative suggestions as to how we can communicate systemic bias to the new India editor? Also, Thisthat2011 suggested we add a whole section on behavioral tips for new India editors. Any suggestions on that? Zuggernaut (talk) 17:24, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Perhaps something along the following lines: Indian topics are generally underrepresented on wikipedia and you can help counter this imbalance by becoming a regular contributor and by joining or watchlisting India related discussions. Again, welcome! The main issue, imo, is about topic coverage (thus we have everything about Doctor Who covered in excruciating detail while, say, Buniyaad gets barely a mention). --rgpk (comment) 18:04, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That makes sense but it would be worth finding out what others think. Should we ask people at WT:IN and elsewhere? Zuggernaut (talk) 05:52, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a good idea. I think an India specific welcome template will be a useful addition, so thanks for taking a lead on that. But, unfortunately, the atmosphere in India related articles is poisonous these days, so we should definitely try to make it as neutral and inclusive (of Indians of all stripes, as well as of non-Indians interested in India related topics) as possible. --rgpk (comment) 15:47, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Also make a little detailed note of Systemic bias such as 'Indian laws don't apply to Wikipedia, though US laws do' which I think is important. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर &#124; असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011  06:42, 15 July 2011 (UTC)


 * My understanding is that WP does respect the laws of other nations, besides US, even if those laws don't apply to WP directly.-MangoWong (talk) 08:06, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Well the correct understanding should be reflected. "WP does respect the laws of other nations" should be clear across page on Wikipages on India atleast. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर &#124; असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011  08:39, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Let's just leave our current peeves out of this. :) --rgpk (comment) 14:51, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * You will have than all such confusions also. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर &#124; असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011  15:11, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * There are no confusions whatsoever. Wikipedia has very clear policies that deal with the raising of legal issues (see my note to you on WT:IN). Regardless of all that, talking about legal issues in a welcome notice is hardly the right way to get new users to stay here. --rgpk (comment) 15:17, 15 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Please clarify about your understanding of 'no confusion' as well.
 * About "talking about legal issues in a welcome notice is hardly the right way", I would like to defer. It is a good pointer indeed according to me, and there are many users who regularly come online to comment about this, even after "current peeves" issue. Archives are good examples for bans, sockpuppet bans, etc. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर &#124; असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011  15:28, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

May be information about how reference standard on Wikipedia is enforced could be included. Such as some sources are treated as more reliable than others; though it should not look like an advertising/regressive campaign. ..असक्तः सततं कार्य कर्म समाचर &#124; असक्तः हि आचरन् कर्म.. Humour Thisthat2011  07:52, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Information about reliable sources are already included in other links. The tutorial, for example, asks that editors "make sure that every source [they] use is trustworthy and authoritative." There is also a note in the 5 pillars that "All articles must strive for verifiable accuracy: unreferenced material may be removed, so please provide references. Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong here. That means citing verifiable, authoritative sources, especially on controversial topics and when the subject is a living person." Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:49, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Asking Indian editors to counter systemic bias
I've looked at RegentsPark's removal of the systemic bias sentence again deliberately after a long pause and I must say I don't see it as "pointy". It only says what is very well known and well documented in the essay on systemic bias and the WP:NPOVFAQ. It is important to add the one line alerting them of the problem and encourage them to stick around. Zuggernaut (talk) 13:38, 28 August 2011 (UTC)


 * How about--Indian topics are generally underrepresented on wikipedia and you can help counter this imbalance by becoming a regular contributor and by joining or watchlisting India related discussions. Again, welcome!


 * I was also wondering if there could be some way of alerting newbies to the more common pitfalls, and to showing them ways of avoiding them. Newbies would not know that we are looking for sourced content only. Showing them links to WP:V and WP:NOR does not seem too useful to me. Generally they would simply not click on it, and even if they do click it, would not read it through, and even if they read it, (many) would not be able to understand much. So, would it be better to alert them by adding something like the stuff below. Ideas? Comments? Criticisms?
 * Here are some rudimentary points to help you along. Firstly, all content on WP must be sourced from reliable sources ( university level textbooks, newspapers, etc. Blogs are largely unacceptable). We do not insert something simply because we think it is correct. More information can be found at WP:V, WP:NOR.
 * Here are some common tools to help you format your refs easily, Wikipedia citation tool for GoogleBooks, Maunus' refmaker.
 * You can practice your editing skills by creating a personal sandboxclicking. You can click this link and - (I am not expert enough to be able formulate this link properly.) Copying a mid sized article with some refs and some images already in it, and then practicing your skills on it could be a good idea. You may also want to visit User page design center and User page design center/Style.
 * At an initial stage, it may be a good idea to contribute only to some simple topics and articles. One could slowly move to more complex issues as one gains in experience. Moving onto something too big at an initial stage could be counterproductive.
 * Wikipedia is driven by consensus. It is expected that all eds work towards achieving consensus and strive to maintain a healthy respectful and collaborative atmosphere. Being civil is a big issue. The community offers protection to the new users by formulating policies like WP:BITE. Violations of civility can be reported at WP:ANI. However, new users are also expected to conform to WP:CIVIL
 * While using sources, one must not use the same wording as the source itself. It is generally necessary that the wording of the source be paraphrased. See WP:Copyvio.
 * While posting comments on talk page, there are some conventions to be followed. One should only say things which are relevant to the improvement of the article and relevant to the section at hand. There are some proper ways to formulate the wording of your comments so that they are effective and useful. Please see WP:TPG.
 * Providing diffs and links to make oneself understood clearly is a good idea. See WP:Diff
 * WP has a myriad range of policies and guidelines etc. So, it is also OK to work through common sense. It is acceptable that newbies should make some mistakes at an initial stage. Nevertheless, it is expected that everyone should familiarize themselves with the Five Pillars.
 * While editing, one should also not edit war. Please see WP:3RR. In short, 3RR means one cannot perform more than three reverts in one article within a 24 hour period.- Mango Wong ℳ 08:51, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Two more points which just came up to my mind.
 * It is also suggested that while creating usernames, real names should not be used. Although WP has an Anglophone bias, people from all parts of the world participate on WP and efforts are on to increase the participation of people from all parts of the world. As such, using cosmopolitan looking names may be helpful. It is also suggested that personal information be not given out on WP, whether on user page or during discussions.
 * To sum it up, WP is a place for folks who are interested in building a good, reliable knowledge bank, i.e. a high quality encyclopedia. Happy editing.- Mango Wong ℳ 13:05, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * We also have things like "Picture of the day", "Tip of the day", bot delivered Newsletters, and suggestion bots, etc. I suggest we might show some of these things to the newbies. It is quite easy to place them on the userpage or talk page. Doing this, they will gain some editing experience + they will have something new to look at whenever they log on+ it would give them the feeling that something is going on and make them feel involved.- Mango Wong ℳ 16:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I commend you for this list MangoWong, it covers some important points. My concern is overloading new users, I believe the current welcome template was designed to try and introduce users without scaring them. If I were you I would raise this at the WP:Village Pump if you wish to push forward with it, as it could help more than Indians. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:45, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Excellent points, MangoWong. We can get rid of the bottom three bullet items from the current template (How to edit a page and How to develop articles, How to create your first article (using the Article Wizard if you wish), Manual of Style) and replace them with three or more of MangoWong's points. My favorites as of now are:
 * Not giving out too much personal information. I have come across several editors who have the date, the month and the year of their birth listed on their userpage.
 * MangoWong's point #6 - WP:Copyvio. This seems to be a common problem with India related editors.
 * MangoWong's very first point with more emphasis on WP:RS and WP:NOR
 * If others are OK with this, I will go ahead and make the change to the template.
 * Zuggernaut (talk) 13:47, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the linking version suggested by zuggernaut (and implemented by MangoWong) is fine. I'm not sure about including the long list above, information overload is never a good idea and the usefulness of the template will be greatly diluted by the increased length. --rgpk (comment) 15:58, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I have looked into Welcoming committee/Welcome templates/Table for some ideas. I find that the welcoming committee has all sorts of templates-- gigantic ones, and fairly short ones too. I have also found both types being used by various users. So, it seems that choice of big/small template depends on the user who is extending the welcome. Would it be better to keep the present template as it is, and design another bigger one? That way, folks who want to use a short template can use the short one and those who want to use the larger one can use the larger one?- Mango Wong ℳ 19:18, 5 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Well. the present template is just the smallest default template with a note of systematic bias isn't it? Not much difference from the standard welcome. I'm sure you can change it if you feel other issues are more pertinent, to a longer form, although I suggest using two columns if you want to include the list of ten things you mentioned above. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:34, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * OK then. Two templates and two columns. The idea is to channelize the energy of the newbies in the required direction.- Mango Wong ℳ 06:58, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree, this one looks good with MangoWong's addition and we can create a new separate two-column one. I would propose using icons and picture in this newer one - something on the lines of what can be found on Redtigerxyz's user page Zuggernaut (talk) 02:23, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Y. Here are some links which may be considered for inclusion on the new template. The signpost newsletter, the picture of the day  , tip of the day  , suggest bot SuggestBot. Since we are telling users about WP:v and WP:nor, it may be useful to show them some ways of finding sources like  List of free online resources. I am removing the line thanking new users for their contributions from the present template. It is cumbersome to use the present template with that line because lots of new users have not yet made an edit, and for the ones who did make an edit, I have to go find out whether their edits are useful of not. If the line is necessary, please reinsert it.- M W  ℳ 05:35, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

If I may make a suggestion, we don't know if a particular new editor is actually interested in India related topics or just happened to edit in that area first. Also, we do want to highlight the underrepresented part by moving it to a separate para. But, that would be odd as a single sentence so, perhaps (as part of a separate para on the bottom): ''Since you've shown some interest in editing topics related to India, we hope you'll stay and add content to India related articles. Indian topics are generally underrepresented on wikipedia and you can help counter this imbalance by becoming a regular contributor and by joining or watchlisting India related discussions (for example, Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics). Again, welcome!'' --rgpk (comment) 15:46, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't have a problem with this but I propose a minor variation - If we place it after "Manual of style" and before the line "I hope...", then it is likely that more people will read it. Zuggernaut (talk) 13:11, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. (Thanks for taking the initiative to create this template!) --rgpk (comment) 13:33, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * In order to show the newbies an easy way of creating a personal sandbox, I have found this line from the WP:sandbox coding.
 * "'If you have registered an account you can find or create your own user sandbox [ here]. For future easy access, you can put My sandbox on your userpage.'"
 * Taking a look at these two welcome templates may also be helpful in designing the new one.

. One contains a pic, and the other one is particularly nice looking and has two columns.- M W ℳ 13:47, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * And if we are going to include the points about privacy and about using cosmopolitan looking usernames, we may do well to show the Changing username link.- M W ℳ 17:07, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * India is underrepresented? According to whom and compared with what?  With China?  With Brazil? With Russia? With Canada? (or only with the US and perhaps the UK)?  India is also over-represented.  Over-represented with substandard articles that people are quick to start, but loath to maintain.  Perhaps before putting out the underrepresented and systemic bias garbage, the template should be encouraging the new editors to improve the India-related articles that are languishing in plain sight.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:35, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * PS And how is the Welcome:India template being plastered on the talk pages of new editors (with not a single edit to their credit) just because they seem to have an Indian sounding user name? MangoWong, has just completed such an en mass exercise.  How do we know they are interested in India-related topics?  Have they expressed that interest explicitly somewhere?  Shouldn't they be given a chance to edit and find their likes and dislikes?  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:40, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * PPS And what is "And if we are going to include the points about privacy and about using cosmopolitan looking usernames, we may do well to show the Wikipedia:Changing username link." supposed to mean? Any Wikipedia policy behind this or just a fantasy of using cosmopolitan sounding usernames to head off any accusations of piling on by Indian editors in the edit wars and disputes of the future?   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  18:06, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I tend to agree that this seems like unseemly targeting, perhaps even racist targeting. It is not neutral either regarding the identity of the newcomer or the subject areas in which they may be interested. Indeed, it could be argued that it is fairly extreme POV. Countering systemic bias with POV does not eliminate that bias, it just redefines it. - Sitush (talk) 18:48, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, the more I think about it and some of the people who are driving the idea, it sounds like pre-emptive canvassing. I understand the implications of asking the wider community to comment on these proposals (they form part of the systemic bias), but somehow I think this needs to be brought to the attention of that wider community. I'm just not sure what is the best method to do so. - Sitush (talk) 18:53, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

Traditionally, the welcome template is used only after an editor has made a few substantive edits and it certainly makes sense to use this welcome-India template only when an editor has gone beyond a few edits and has shown some interest in India related articles. Indiscriminate use can be a turnoff and targeting any editor with an Indian sounding name can easily be misconstrued. On wikipedia, it is the edits that should be allowed to do the talking, not the name (nor, with apologies to Zuggernaut, the geographical location of the editor!). --rgpk (comment) 19:07, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

(ec) ''How do we know they are interested in India-related topics? Have they expressed that interest explicitly somewhere?''. They are the students from the WP:INDIAEDU program. All user ids hav been included in Category:Wikipedians interested in India Education Program. It is an attempt modeled on the american PPP initiative. I believe Z and MW think, more indians mean more supporters for their cause. That remains to be seen. However the project has run into some major copyvio trouble already. I invite Z and MW to lend a hand in the cleanup. --Sodabottle (talk) 19:18, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm confused. What is this program?  Is WMF sponsoring Indian professors to teach courses in Engineering and Computer Science?  Or sponsoring Indian engineering and computer science students to write articles in Wikipedia for course credit?  If it is the latter, it is foolish.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  20:09, 8 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Its the later and WMF isn't doing any sponsoring. It is just an outreach effort. The "get college students to write wikipedia articles for course credit" thing is called the Global education program. It started in the US with a focus on Public Policy articles and has since then expanded to other countries and fields. WP:INDIAEDU is a part of it. A pilot program is being run in 3 or 4 educational institutions in the Pune region and about a 1000 students are involved. --Sodabottle (talk) 20:23, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That'll be the Death of Wikipedia. No slight meant to the Indian students; I'm including all students in all institutions anywhere who are being tempted or goaded, by carrots or sticks, to achieve this noble aim.  It takes away the whole rationale of Wikipedia&mdash;an encyclopedia anyone can edit, including the unmotivated, the depressed (of matter or mind), the down and out, the people working two jobs, those working no jobs, the stay at home moms, the retired grandmothers, the high-school drop outs, the college drop outs, the people with no ax to grind, and nothing up their sleeves.  Please use the redlink to start the article, when that day arrives.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  22:26, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

This conversation has veered into an irrelevant and un-productive territory so there's nothing to comment here. I am creating a section below for interested editors who want to use the template with Twinkle. Some of the suggestions made by MW are relevant for a new, forthcoming "heavyduty" template which I will create shortly (others are welcome to beat me to it). I will transclude those suggestions/points to the talk page of the new template for the benefit for future editors. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Even if they are students from an Indian institution who are coming into Wiki on a new initiative, I think it'd be presumptive to assume they're interested primarily (or even partially) in covering India topics. I'm an American and I doubt even 5% of the articles I follow are US-related. I've been misleadingly quoted before for my comments about Indian editors editing Indian articles: I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, I'm saying that the Wikipedia ideal should certainly not be Indian articles being dominated by Indian editors, any more than American editors should be the heaviest represented on American topics. Some of each is bound to happen, but a genuine movement to eliminate Endemic Bias would involve encouraging, say, Mexican editors to counter Anglo bias in Indian articles, American editors to counter bias in Ethiopa-Eritrea articles, Indian editors to counter bias in Serbo-Croatian articles, etc. Not that communities need to be targeted as literally as in my notional examples, but my point is that involving editors from the widest possible variety of backgrounds is the best way to diminish Endemic Bias. MatthewVanitas (talk) 03:41, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I take an Indian looking username as a clue that the user may be interested in things "India". I am also of the view that India related articles are of a poor quality and are suffering due to lack of interest. So, I am going to welcome folks to take an interest in India related articles. Whether they do go on to take an interest or not is up to them. The part about using cosmopolitan looking usernames is based on my experience that a cosmopolitan looking username is helpful in maintaining anonymity. I don't think it is good to give out any sort of personal info, even through usernames. It can cause people to become a target of various types of attacks due to their profession/qualification/nationality/belief etc. Do we want users to fall victim to that type of attacks?- M W ℳ 05:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid, I'm challenging the assertion that India is underrepresented. Or, for that matter that the Anglo-American bias is such an important consideration that new users need to be burdened with it.  Please gain consensus for this welcoming message text on WT:IN.   Do other projects mention systemic bias in their welcoming messages? We can't, any random one of us, make up our own templates in the name of a country (and by implication its many Wikipedia projects) and start targeting putative nationals of that country based on username phonetics.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  08:32, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * You yourself seem to lament the fact that too many India related articles are languishing due to lack of attention. In this situation, why do you oppose attempts to draw more eyeballs to these articles? Is that not a self contradiction? The systemic bias thing is only meant to highlight the point that these articles suffer from a lack of attention. And if one looks into the various project specific welcome templates at Welcoming committee/Welcome templates, one finds that the various country specific templates do target participants from the respective countries. For example, Template:Norwaylcome says that:
 * "'Also, if you are Norwegian, perhaps you could check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Norway and add yourself (i.e. your user page) to Category:Wikipedians in Norway.'"- M W ℳ 10:58, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Lament I do, but your welcome template pasted on the talk pages of brand new users is not the way to do it. They are not equipped to do clean-up; they don't have the skills.  They need to be welcomed, but also left alone to find their interests and develop their skills at their chosen pace.  Your description of country-templates is highly inaccurate.  The  Estonia, Ukraine, Russia, California, and Germany templates simply say, "If you are interested in CountryX-related themes, you may want to ..."  Australia says, "Since you have contributed to Australia-related articles, ... If you are living in Australia you may want to ... local somethingorother."  Switzerland says nothing.  And Norway says, "If you are Norwegian you may want to watchlist Project Norway."  None of them, and I repeat, none of them are attempting to stuff garbage about systemic bias, underrepresentation, and Anglo-American focus down the throats of users who can barely sign their name.  And none of the projects are targeting people by the sounds of their usernames; rather they are doing it by the directions and choices of the edits, after those edits have settled into some pattern.  I believe this targeting is against Wikipedia policy, and here, Zuggernaut, especially, is treading on thin ice.  It is close to the kind of behavior&mdash;indulging in the arithmetic of ethnicity and nationalism&mdash;that, among other things, garnered him the topic ban.  I believe there is no consensus for this new welcome template.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  16:20, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Your allegations against Zuggernaut are baseless. The sentence about systemic bias was put in through consensus only. It was proposed by . And Zuggernaut has only welcomed users who did make edits. Actually I had taken down a sentence which was making it impossible to use this template on users with no contributions . But now, RegentsPark has proposed another sentence, and Zuggernaut has inserted it. This new sentence again makes the template unusable on users without contributions. I am a bit sore at this development. However, since I had taken down the sentence which thanked new users for their contributions, and said that it should be reinserted if there be any objection, I have not opposed this development. I know you have been having content disputes with Zuggernaut. It is unsurprising that you should continue to find fault with whatever Zuggernaut may/may not do. Actually, the sentence prior to this sentence was also proposed by , and I was the one who inserted it. .  And there was no opposition by anyone. Everything was done by consensus. Now you guys arrive and begin to see “ethnicity and nationalism” etc. Systemic bias is not about editor’s nationality or ethnicity etc. It is about lack of attention in certain areas. There were at least three eds (Zuggernaut, RegentsPark and myself, Chipmunkdavis also showed no opposition) who agreed to those sentences. Are we all nationalists and ethnicists?
 * They are not equipped to do clean-up; they don't have the skills. I see no problem in inviting brand new users to edit articles. What do we expect brand new users to do, if not edit articles? Whether they have the skills or not, does not matter. We still invite them to edit on WP. They will gain skills as they gain in experience. You cannot expect them to gain skills magically as soon as they register. They will improve the content and add to it in the long run. Not inviting new users means that we are going to become an endangered species and die off. If there is some way whereby the WP project can survive without allowing new users to edit articles, please propose it at the appropriate forum and get it approved as a policy. Until then, it is OK for new users to edit.
 * The only way to counter the lack of quality and quantity in this area is to have more new users. That is why I was inviting them. Whether I use this template or not, I am going to welcome new users. And I am also going to welcome users who have no contributions.- M W ℳ 19:55, 9 September 2011 (UTC) Here's the link to the Norway welcome template {{subst:Norwaylcome}}. Anyone can see that it does say what I said it says.- M W  ℳ 20:01, 9 September 2011 (UTC) Nowhere does it say what you claim it says.- M W  ℳ 20:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Nobody is saying that users with no edits can't be welcomed; what we're questioning is whether it's appropriate to leap at Indian editors to specifically invite them to focus on India articles, particularly when the template itself essentially says "Hey, Anglos are ruining our articles, so you need to come help with that." If you want to have a discussion somewhere about Endemic Bias, sure that'd be great to do; I for one would be interested in hearing a dispassionate analysis of ED on India issues, and to get a chance to dispassionately regarding the severe patterns of COI/POV I see in many caste and history articles. In the meantime, "Endemic Bias" is being used as a bludgeon against editors who demand actual footnoting (per WP:V) and who won't let folks provide their own amateur interpretations of the Puranas to prove that their caste is the most awesomest caste on the block.

If you feel there are specific culturally-appropriate ways to greet people who happen to be editing from India, and to make them feel welcome, I personally have no objection. If there are general trends you note in editing that may be related to Indian cultural differences (that can somehow be generalised to cover the cultures of a billion people), I personally don't have a problem with "everyone remember to footnote, everyone remember to write neutrally". The concern is that the underlying motive of the template is to encourage people who happen to live in India to dive into controversial India articles with a chip on the shoulder, looking to fight the Biased Britishers for the glory of Bharat, which is not a constructive approach. Regardless of community, a welcome template that has an underlying call to arms seems a risky business. MatthewVanitas (talk) 20:06, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * It’s a meme. That there is something in Indian culture which makes people disregard proper sourcing is a meme. It was started by 2/3 conspiracy theorist eds who are exercising an overwhelming influence on Indian caste articles and who want to keep Indian eds away from caste articles so that they can continue to insert rubbish into caste articles. They themselves keep inserting tons of out of context, rubbish material from off topic sources. Knock it off. Indian eds are only as good/bad as any other eds. No part of the template says "Hey, Anglos are ruining our articles, so you need to come help with that." etc. Some ("lots of" actually) guys seem to have poor reading skills. And in its present form, the template has become unusable on eds who have not made any contributions. So, it is redundant to reply to rest of what you say.- M W ℳ 05:47, 10 September 2011 (UTC)And the systemic bias thing is not garbage. It is well acknowledged on WP. It is important to inform the newbies about the systemic bias so that they have may a feel of the ground.- M W  ℳ 07:30, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Please get consensus for it; otherwise, risk more trips to ANI. Your description of RegentsPark's role is thoroughly disingenuous.  I can read what is written upstairs; I don't need to read your faltering rendition of it.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  08:52, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * How is my description of 's role disingenious? Did not suggest the present sentence and the immediately preceding sentence? And you are still to show where the Norwegian welcome template {{subst:Norwaylcome}} says  "'If you are Norwegian you may want to watchlist Project Norway"
 * If you cannot show that, and if you cannot prove that it does not say what I claim it does, your objections are baseless and fabricated. I am going to disregard them as such.- M W ℳ 09:40, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The Norway template says "Also, if you are Norwegian, perhaps you could check out Wikipedia:WikiProject Norway and add yourself (i.e. your user page) to Category:Wikipedians in Norway." As a paraphrase, "If you are Norwegian you may want to watchlist Project Norway" is close enough. I think that you may be missing the linguistic nuances. Your criticisms of others, whom you have moaned about consistently but failed to achieve consensus in any forum that I have seen (including ANI), are becoming tedious. Please could you either "put up or shut up" regarding those people: open a once-and-for-all report at ANI or wherever. Let's get it done with. - Sitush (talk) 09:57, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Fowler&Fowler was using quotation marks. You don't paraphrase when you use quotation marks. And I see no need to go to ANI simply to answer baseless and fabricated objections. If you don't understand that much, you shut up.- M W ℳ 10:34, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Sorry, "put up or shut up" is a phrase. Similar to "put your money where your mouth is". Basically, if you have an issue then do what you should do to achieve resolution, otherwise hold your peace. Look it up, if you want. There is a mechanism for resolving your concerns but you choose not to use it and instead to spread vitriol across numerous forums. It is tedious and pointless. Fowler's point stands, whether a quote, a paraphrase or whatever. Your pedantry just makes you look a little ridiculous: why not deal with the issue rather than the semantics of how it was raised? - Sitush (talk) 22:07, 10 September 2011 (UTC)


 * The word "vitriol" which I used above is a little strong, perhaps. It reflects a cumulative effect. "Slurs" is more appropriate for the particular comments in your message timed at 0730 10 September. I still think that this template & the manner in which it should be used needs a wider audience and support Fowler&fowler's comment regarding this. At the very least, seeking a wider opinion can surely do no harm. - Sitush (talk) 00:07, 11 September 2011 (UTC)


 * If Fowler&Fowler wants his objections to have credibility, Fowler&Fowler should not have based them on fabricated grounds. I reject Fowler&Fowler's objections because they are based on "imaginative" grounds. And there is nothing wrong with my 0730 10 September comment. That there is something in Indian culture which makes people disregard proper sourcing is a meme. And that is a slur.- M W ℳ 01:04, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

MW, you're strawmanning here: you are the one insisting that Indian editors need some special welcome template to keep them from falling into error. I said if you think there are specific culturally-appropriate ways to welcome Indians, I don't find that objectionable. I have not said that Indians can't footnote, there are clearly tons of great Indian editors (several of whom have clearly labeled your party as not representative of Indian editors); what I have said is that there is a significant problem on WP:INDIA of IPs, SPAs, and new-regs showing up to add unreferenced or poorly-referenced material, or remove referenced material, 90%+ of the time to glorify one Indian community or another. I spoke semi-humorously about your attempts to direct new users, but you explicity say: "Indian topics are generally underrepresented on wikipedia and you can help counter this imbalance by becoming a regular contributor and by joining or watchlisting India related discussions" What do the bluelinks go to: articles about Endemic and Anglo-American biases. Again, nobody is denying such things exist, but with your template you are leaping right at a select nationality and telling them "you can help counter this imbalance". And again, why one earth are we expecting that engineers in Pune have no greater interest than fighting Anglo bias on India articles? Maybe they want to write about their actual engineering specialty, maybe they like Thai cusine, maybe they've gone birdwatching in Chile.

Again, you're being disingenous (of all people?): this is a barely-concealed attempt to leap onto fellow Indians to encourage them to "rally to the flag" and defend pro-Indian, pro-caste bias. You and your crew have specifically said on old Talk pages that you're hoping to get enough Indian editors to be able to "correct" all the things you see going wrong on India articles, which you blame on Endemic Bias. And yet, you don't ever seem able to convince anyone in the slightest via an ANI. By all means, ANI me again, or else stop talking smack about my editing abilities, as I continue to delete absolutely ridiculous caste glorification and replace it with actual published academic works. MatthewVanitas (talk) 14:58, 12 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I have no crew etc. and if anyone thinks that I am a representative of anything, I would be the first to dispute that assertion/ claim. Discussing all this seems to be pointless unless someone could say something which I could see as "meaningful"/ "helpful"/ "constructive". M W ℳ 13:31, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Using this template with Twinkle
When used with Twinkle, the task of welcoming new editors becomes much easier, faster, 1-click operation. Here's a brief overview on how you can get it to work with Twinkle.

There are three main steps here: Zuggernaut (talk) 03:02, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Turn on gadgets - A Wikipedia gadget is a JavaScript and/or a CSS snippet that can be enabled simply by checking an option in your Wikipedia preferences
 * 2) Take a look at the Twinkle Quick info section - it provides a link to the Twinkle preferences panel. It also talks about clearing your browser cache which might be necessary sometimes with some users.
 * 3) Twinkle preferences have thousands of configuration parameters - jump to the relevant section titled "Welcome user". You might have to play around a bit here but it is really simple. Basically you will need to configure three parameters ("Clicking the "welcome" link on a diff page will:" choose "prompt you to select a template", "Template to use when welcoming automatically:" type "Welcome-India" here without any parenthesis or braces). Save your changes and test it out. I might have missed out a step or two but I'm sure you'll be able to figure it out. After this, welcoming users will be a 1-click task.

Update: It should be possible to "register" this template with Twinkle somewhere so that it shows up in Twinkle's default options. That way you don't even have to be aware of this template and anyone who uses Twinkle will see it when they decide to welcome someone. I have not yet figured this out yet but if someone does, that will be of great help. Zuggernaut (talk) 03:08, 9 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Including these templates in the default twinkle options may be difficult. It will cause other projects to argue that their welcome templates should also be included in the default twinkle options and we have lots of projects. Doing that would be unmanageable. So, I feel we had better continue with the present system of activating it from twinkle preferences and using it hence. Of course explaining the process of activating it in twinkle preferences and explaining its power is very helpful. M W ℳ 04:21, 9 September 2011 (UTC)

Indian languages
Since India is a complex society with many languages, religions, and cultures, I think it better to stick to English. Otherwise we're going to have to include sat sri akal, adaab, salaam, bengali, urdu, etc. etc. if we don't want to turn off large groups of editors. --rgpk (comment) 19:22, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * You mean on this Wikipedia? Doesn't matter who it is you always stick to English because this is the English Wikipedia. Even for a country which is mostly monolingual and where very few know English, all discussions relating to coverage of that country here (whether on talk pages, project pages or elsewhere) must be conducted in English. Note all major native languages of India have their own Wikipedia where the actual articles as well as the non-article communications are in that native language. GizzaTalk  &#169; 05:25, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Also once you find out that the new editor has a specific interest in a particular region of India and they know the language of that area you may invite them to contribute to that Wikipedia. Wouldn't do that on a standard welcome template. If their first ten edits give a good indication as to which native Indian language they may know, you can then add a couple of personalised lines, inviting the person to contribute to say the Hindi or Bengali Wikipedia (whichever Indian-language Wikipedia it may be). GizzaTalk  &#169; 05:29, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * This is good feedback. We can create a separate template to encourage visitors to the English Wikipedia to consider editing their regional Wikipedias. I agree with you earlier comment about sticking to English. Zuggernaut (talk) 01:57, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. How about something on the lines of the image rotation template we have for the featured article on India? Zuggernaut (talk) 01:57, 15 September 2011 (UTC)