Template talk:Yakuza series

Main name
Please stop reverting each other or it might turn into a edit war with possible blocks. Please discuss here what name to use and reach a consensus. In my opinion, saying Ryu ga Gotoku here would just confuse English readers since not everybody knows Japanese.Tintor2 (talk) 02:17, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I only reverted once, following WP:BRD. Regarding the actual topic: I strongly disagree with the claim that the title "Yakuza" only refers to games that have been released in English. We should be referring to the series (as a whole) by its most common name in English as determined by use in English-language reliable sources and in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME. And that most common name is still "Yakuza", regardless of if it's a translated game or not; see for example Kotaku calling Ishin "The latest game in the Yakuza franchise"; IGN calling it "The first next-generation Yakuza game"; Polygon ranking "The Yakuza games" and including Kurohyo, Kenzan and Ishin; Eurogamer calling Kenzan a "Yakuza period spin-off" and referring to Ishin as "Yakuza: Ishin".--AlexandraIDV 04:53, 3 October 2020 (UTC)


 * I see. Seems like we both have the same idea in regards to this naming.Tintor2 (talk) 16:23, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Tintor. Your concern is noted, but I never had the intention of being in violation of the 3RR rule.

Pardon the following walls of text, but I have to write up a doozy in order to articulate my concerns.

@Alexandra IDV: Honestly, I do relate where you are coming from. I do want to point out I did not move the actual article or template into "Ryu ga Gotoku", nor did I alter the template in any substantial way other then simply changing the display name. But the discussion I actually want to have, is to address the question of what name to use for the umbrella term for the franchise media as a whole, in the English language. No, not the mainline numbered series, because it is cut and dry what the WP:COMMONNAME in English is, especially since 2006. I am talking about the video games, the numerous spin-offs, the spin-offs of the spin-offs like the live action films, TV and stage play adaptations as a whole, many of which do not carry the Western-specific Yakuza branding. The Anglophone world is not just restricted to North America, Oceania, and native English speakers in Europe. In East Asia, particularly in countries like Singapore, Hong Kong, and Malaysia where English is spoken widely, you may find the franchise games represented as Ryu ga Gotoku, localized in another language but certainly fully described in English and available for purchase within an English medium; if you find them labelled as Yakuza, it's very likely an NTSC or PAL import.

I'll provide just a few examples:
 * https://www.lazada.com.my/products/ps4-ryu-ga-gotoku-kimawi-basic-digital-download-i451056929-s685150822.html?exlaz=d_1:mm_150050845_51350205_2010350205::12:1032211143!54400014687!!!pla-296303633664!c!296303633664!685150822!136339869&gclid=CjwKCAjwn9v7BRBqEiwAbq1Ey305UB8xGeMK6Jnnx4fXsFqkF4_Sl7fusSbgdSoNGf9JNkk-BasHxxoCH6oQAvD_BwE
 * https://store.playstation.com/en-hk/product/HP0177-CUSA12697_00-ASIAPLACEHOLDER0 (HK PS Store)
 * https://store.playstation.com/en-sg/product/HP0177-CUSA15263_00-ASIAFULLGAME0000 (SG PS Store)

From my research, the one thing the franchise media components have all in common is their Gotoku branding. That's what connects Lost Paradise as a spin-off, through it's original Japanese name (so I can see why certain editors have in the past tried to remove it from the template; they must have assessed that it is not at all connected to the Yakuza branding). One does not need to know Japanese in order to perceive or understand the Gotoku branding SEGA has used. It is in the dev studio's name since the early 2010's; it's the name used for all non-English localized versions of the series games which one could navigate on a website in the English medium; and before SEGA decided to give the Western localized release of the first entry a different name, so here's a trip down memory lane:


 * https://www.gamespot.com/articles/ryu-ga-gotoku-import-hands-on/1100-6141128/
 * https://www.gamesradar.com/ryu-ga-gotoku-review/
 * https://www.engadget.com/2006-02-23-yakuza-tale-ryu-ga-gotoku-headed-west.html

The central issue I have here, is Article titles. The brand "Yakuza" appears to be very Euro or American-centric. It's complicated by the fact that not that long ago, SEGA didn't prioritize availability of English localization similar to the Mother seriesand Yakuza 5 nearly didn't get released in the West at all. There is nothing innately wrong about it in itself, and it's absolutely the appropriate name to use when discussing the mainline numbered games in the English language as they all have English localizations, but my understanding is that the English language wikipedia is an Anglophone online encyclopedia, not an encyclopedia for a Western audience only. The sources you rely on are certainly reliable, but is not infallible in any way because I want to stress the context; the tone these websites have adopted presumed that their reader base are North American/European/Australian/New Zealander. The Polygon writer may have lumped all games within the franchise for discussion in one article, but in their analysis paragraphs they still addressed the individual games by their original names instead of a translated/localized name just for the purpose of the article. For me, the other examples you have given are simply examples where they referred to those titles by a colloquial expression so that their reader could follow what they were talking about, but I don't personally think that is encyclopedic in tone when paraphrased to Wikipedia unfiltered. These products would never be referred to by the adopted English localized branding outside of the articles you cited. In other words, if the article writers are aware that they may have a global English-speaking audience, some of whom may already be familiar with the franchise's original name, I doubt they will refer to these products by a name they invented for themselves.

Anyway, way too much rambling from me. It does not bother me if there is a strong consensus from all other English wikipedia editors to stick to Yakuza as a name for the entire franchise media, based on a naming decision for the English release in the West which was made when the franchise as a whole was already expanding as a multimedia project in Japan under its original name. My argument is that this situation is similar to the Mother series. First 2 games were localized into English for Western release, third game never got one. While the 2 games are widely and rightfully known as "Earthbound" in most English media, the franchise itself as a whole is still referred to as "Mother", and the Template appears to be so. It's not objectively wrong to refer to Mother 3 in a colloquial manner as Earthbound 2, but I doubt it would be accepted as encyclopedic. Even with the latest release, instead of simply calling it Yakuza 7 to mirror the original Japanese name Ryu Ga Gotoku 7, SEGA keeps emphasizing the "Like A Dragon" subtitle which is the direct translation of Ryu ga Gotoku in all marketing and promotion, including the official website url: https://likeadragon.sega.com/home.html. So I still see the Ryu ga Gotoku/Yakuza media franchise as a whole to be a very Japan-centric one at the moment, so whether Yakuza ousts Ryu ga Gotoku as the definitive English name for the franchise to the rest of the world is probably up to debate in my view.

Your thoughts? Haleth (talk) 16:49, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

FYI, just as an example, this industry analyst article about SEGA's financial position in 2010, specifically mentioned Yakuza 4 to be the name known in the West and in secondary importance after its Japanese name. I am not saying we should follow suit for naming conventions on wikipedia, because times have certainly changed since then and the franchise isn't as niche as it used to be, but I just want to provide context. Haleth (talk) 17:14, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Tintor2: Re your change. So far the translated English name has only been used for the English localization of Gotoku 7, and for descriptions of the mid-2000's film adaptations in the English language. I'd be curious to see what name they choose for the upcoming Hollywood-produced movie. Ace Attorney has a similar situation, where the franchise has completely different names in both English and Japanese. Unlike Gotoku/Yakuza however, Capcom seems to have made it very clear that Ace Attorney is the name the franchise should be referred to in all English media; its 2012 film adaptation, dubbed in Japanese but subtitled in English, was referred to as such when I last watched it on Netflix. As far as I know the Gotoku films were never retroactively rebranded and re-released as Yakuza, and Yakuza 5 nearly not getting a Western/English localization at all was a well documented case. It's also telling that SEGA went with "Like A Dragon" for the upcoming release instead of just calling it Yakuza 7, considering it is not a spinoff like Judgment. Deciding what to name the franchise as a whole when covering it seems difficult to me, when some of the media stuff has not been released outside of Japan, and SEGA seems to be on the fence when it comes to taking the brand international. For that matter, I read material where the producers basically admitted that Judgment is one way for the studio to keep making games in their Kamurocho setting and reach new Japanese players, as the cultural stigma towards yakuza has not eased with the passage of time.

Anyway, I am still of the view that the mother franchise itself should still be called Ryu ga Gotoku since that is the branding SEGA has been sticking with, like how the "Mother" series is still being referred to as "Mother" even though it first two entries have been localized as "Earthbound", which have led to Western media referring to the series as "Earthbound" for convenience. My concern is that referring to the mother franchise solely as Yakuza, instead of a specifically the mainline series which have all been localized so far, constitutes undue weight. Haleth (talk) 16:25, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

Gaiden's placement
Currently it's being listed under "Other Games" but wouldn't it make way more sense to place it in brackets after Yakuza: Like a Dragon? It's specifically that game's "gaiden" (side story) and would be sandwiched very neatly between 7 and 8 which is exactly the order of the games' releases. How does everyone feel about this change? Quoxs (talk) 05:20, 13 November 2023 (UTC)