User:Σ/Testing facility/TP/Archive 5

Assigning religious affiliation to editors
I didn't expect my comment to In ictu oculi to have such "legs". It was really just a corrective statement directed to him, to be more careful with language, and not a condemnation of him or any other party. Every single person has their own biases but at least in the Wikipedia universe, we try to set aside biases in the interest of obtaining accurate representations, regardless of our personal allegiances. I apologize to Iio if my words came across as reproving or harsh. NewJerseyLiz Let's Talk 21:12, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No they came off as ill-informed and justifying sectioning another editor's Talk posts (no matter how silly) "JW views." The comment about imagine "Jew" was particularly silly if you're not intending to follow it up on those actually JW-hounding and instead support the behaviour. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:48, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I just expected you to either accept or reject my apology for coming across as harsh but I still maintain that your language revealed a bias. I should have left out the part of adding the "e" to J and W but it was to illustrate a point that no one could get away with an antiSemitic comment but JWs seem fair game to some. This is not news on Wikipedia, I see the same kind of statements when people are talking about other sectarian religious movements. NewJerseyLiz Let's Talk 01:55, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly, so don't support editors hounding JWs. Practise what you preach, rather than criticising others who do do what you preach. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:07, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought you said you object to talking behind the back of other editors? And then, you say practise what you preach? Anyway...
 * Indicating a particular view as that of JWs or Jews or any other group doesn't express a personal judgement of any editor. But the old thread explicitly stated that 607 is a JW teaching anyway. Refactoring the page was in fact uncontroversial, and hardly tantamount to saying 'none of us like JWs'.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 04:21, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Your edit history shows otherwise per WP:SPA. In ictu oculi (talk) 04:23, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I do not need explain or justify my involvement on the JW WikiProject to you.-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 04:27, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * And you are misusing WP:SPA. It states: "Whom not to tag (SPA tagging guidelines) ... Editing only within a single broad topic: When identifying single-purpose accounts, it is important to consider what counts as a diverse group of edits. For example, subjects like spiders, nutrition, baseball, and geometry are diversified topics within themselves. If a user only edits within a broad topic, this does not mean the user is an SPA."-- Jeffro 77 (talk) 04:41, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Practise what you preach ...I try to. And I will criticize discriminatory language when I see it. If one lets comments like "we don't like JWs" go unaddressed, then people assume that everyone agrees with that statement. And I think it's important to point out bias when we see it. I don't think one needs complete knowledge of and participation in a dispute to recognize words of prejudice. I don't see my role as being a watchdog for JW editors or those who dislike them.
 * What I was apologizing was not what I said but how I said it. But, for some reason, you take my admission of error as an invitation to provoke me, which is a puzzling reaction. Most people would say, "No problem, I understood what you meant" or "Thanks, but that was hurtful." My intention was to ease any tensions between us, In ictu oculi, not continue the debate between you and Jeffro77 on to this Talk Page. NewJerseyLiz Let's Talk 13:33, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Regarding Jeffro, he more or less is an SPA, although I think in large part the reason behind it is not a particular obsession with the topic, but a realization over the years that the content regarding the JWs needs a lot of independent oversight. Unfortunately, for a lot of groups, including just about any that have ever been called "cults", we more or less need to have people like that on those topics. On the comparatively few occasions when I have interacted with him on topics not related to the JWs, like on a template on Christian heresies, he has been as reasonable and objective as anyone else, and even in that particular case AFAIK indicated he didn't want to see any modern groups included, including the JWs, although in a lot of regards they resemble groups which were tagged as "heretical" in early Christianity, so I don't think he has anything against them particularly. But, yeah, particularly today, with the frikkin 4 million articles of various standards of notability, and more being created, on pretty much anything, I regret that we probably need more informed, comparatively neutral SPAs like Jeffro watching over some topics than we have. And, as someone who has gotten a bit of a bashing over the years at least in part because of his efforts to keep the JW content NPOV, so far as I can remember primarily from those within the group rather than without, I can imagine that he might well once in a while get a little tetchy. I wish no one were ever in that situation around here, but things being what they are, in some cases it is bound to happen. John Carter (talk) 15:03, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with much of what you say, John. I'm more sympathetic than you to NRMs and sects because I spent a fair amount of time studying them and working as a research assistant to a NRM scholar. On topics like religion, it is almost impossible to be completely free of bias, even when you are writing about a religious tradition that is not your own.
 * I think the important thing is be aware of your own bias and keep it in check. I was in a graduate program where the concepts of Epoché, Weltanschauung and Verstehen was drilled into us which and they mean that you accept but try to set aside your bias (positive or negative) when researching religion and you respect the religious traditions of others even if they are not meaningful or valid for you, personally. As far as writing about religion on Wikipedia, it seems like one advantage of open source knowledge is that articles benefit from the contributions of both insiders and outsiders. They both have viewpoints that can offer others some understanding. NewJerseyLiz Let's Talk 16:32, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * For the most part, I agree. Unfortunately, around here, we sometimes get into trouble with some topics when either the number of editors with one POV outnumber, are more dedicated, or are sometimes, simply, so difficult to deal with that they manage to take over the content one way or another. Scientology is probably the best example of that here, although Falun Gong comes close. Personally, from some comments I've seen recently, early Christianity seems to be at this point pretty much at the same level of difficulty in various ways. We really can't tell editors from one side or another en masse to "go away," and I don't think many of us (except those dedicated to the "other" side in those discussions) would really even want to ask them to do it, but I think, looking over the various topics which have discretionary sanctions on them, there is a very large percentage of them which deal with "beliefs" of some kind among them, religious or secular. I hope we can get some guidelines about such content together soon, and, actually, because requests from ArbCom tend to get more attention and response than others, that's one of the reasons I'm going to file a case on this. Some people might say, not unreasonably, that me and some others should have written them already, but a look at some previous attempts can indicate how quickly some previous discussions derailed. Also, honestly, I ain't the best person for writing such anyway, having never really taken part in many guidelines or policies discussions before. But, with luck, maybe we can make things a bit easier to work with soon. John Carter (talk) 18:00, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Masters in Religious Studies - Thank you for being here
Honestly, if you ever want to consider becoming the coordinator of WikiProject Christianity (which I am to date the only elected lead coordinator of, us never having had enough candidates to do it again), or WikiProject Religion, you would have my vote, and, maybe, as many other fraudulent votes as I could get through the system. Thank you for returning. John Carter (talk) 16:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow, I'm terribly flattered, John. I have an MA in Religious Studies and a MPhil in Religion and Society (Sociology of Religion) so I approach religion from a secular perspective, not a theological one. The focus of my work was studying divisions and conflict within contemporary American denominations, and, secondarily, Religions in North American and NRMs (most of which couldn't be called "Christian"). But I'm not sure I'm equipped to handle editors (either veteran or IP visitors) who want to rewrite church history or who hate Catholics or who forget that Eastern Orthodoxy exists or who are atheists and want to put everything "religious" in quotation marks because they see it as questionable.
 * Can you tell me about your participation in WikiProject Christianity and how it stands today? I'm happy to handle organizing or negotiate disputes but if things are very divisive, it might be a bad time for a newbie to take on larger responsibilities because the situation is in flux.
 * I'm also not sure if this dispute between you, Ignocrates and Ret.Prof is about differences of opinion (regarding COI and RS) and past misconduct, or if it reflects a broader rift between editors who work on articles in this area. If it is the former, I think an ARBCOM decision can decide things but if there are fundamental divides based on theological differences, I think someone with more experience should probably take this on.
 * If you could give me your candid opinions on any of these questions, I'll consider it. Thanks again for asking. NewJerseyLiz Let's Talk 18:42, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Dispute resolution is more or less what you're talking, not so much coordination. Although I'm not that familiar with WP:MILHIST, which is much better run than any of the religion groups, and has made us from what I've seen the best military website out there, the coordinators try to more or less get people to work together, getting assessments done, article development, contests, that sort of thing. As an individual, I really am more the lone wolf-type, and I know I come across as a smug, self-satisfied dictator a lot more than I probably like to as a result. Regarding the recent problems you mention above, that's more I think about content and the rules here than conduct. I've tried to find independent sources which support or give much attention to the Butz theory of James, which was one of Ret. Prof.'s first topics of major concern, but haven't. I also tried to find sources for Ovadyah/Ignocrates' Ebionite Jewish Community/Ebionite Community, but even it's local paper hasn't had anything on it from what I can see in the databanks. While there is a theological dispute involved, in some sense, so far as I can tell, it is about a theological position which, to the best of my knowledge and understanding here, doesn't meet notability in and of itself, and which we can't put forward without violating, to some degree, OR/SYNTH. If I knew of any independent reliable sources which gave sufficient content in them linking Tabor, and Butz, and Robert Eisenman, and god knows all the others so that we could have one article or even section of an article on the "Jewish James hypothesis," about how James led a much more Jewish version of Christianity which has died out and might at some point resurface, a lot of the problems would be solved. But I don't know of any, and neither of them has ever come forward with any that I can remember either. There might be some sort of church out there, like the EJC and maybe others, which actually themselves put forward some version of the hypothesis, but I couldn't find any in the Melton Encyclopedia of American Religions or any other similar sources I looked in, so I can't say that there is even a notable theory there. I wish, but, to the best of my ability to determine it, what they seem to want is something I wouldn't myself mind seeing here, and as indicated above I even, assuming good faith and some sort of independent coverage on the neo-Ebionite groups, created an article on the neo-Ebionites, which was deleted as non-notable. There are a lot of web churches out there, unfortunately, many of which haven't been referenced in any independent RS's, and so far as I can tell the groups and theories they want to promote are among them. The fact that, unfortunately, both seem to believe that their material should be included anyway is a problem, and I think per policy and guidelines not acceptable, even if I myself wish that there were enough material for inclusion of them as per policies and guidelines. John Carter (talk) 19:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Two things: Gordon Melton is the researcher I worked for, years ago, he is a walking encyclopedia, he knows so much. He's an independent scholar but he donated this enormous library to UCSB and I worked with him on archiving the collection. Second, we had an awesome professor of Early Christianity at UCSB but he always got mixed teaching evaluations because the students who enrolled in his courses were taught scripture studies from a theological perspective, not a historical perspective. It was troubling to them when he showed them how much doubt existed about the primary sources that exist in this field of scholarship. I think it's actually a more controversial area to work in than Scientology...with Scientology, you can clearly see pro- and con- bias but with Early Christianity, you really need to have a familiarity with ancient languages to assess the arguments of scholars. NewJerseyLiz Let's Talk 19:39, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Do not repeat that I more or less regard Melton as almost some sort of prophet for us here, given the amazing amount of extremely highly regarded reference works he has put out. With any luck, if the Arb is accepted, one of the things that might happen is that we will have some editors from outside religion and "beliefs" maybe working on guidelines for that area, which we don't have yet. I certainly plan to ask for such, and we might be able to get together, maybe, some sort of idea of how to deal with web churches. I hope so. Previous attempts at guideline drafting got sidetracked rather quickly, unfortunately, by some individual editors with very strong opinions. That's why I'm hoping the more, well, serious nature of a request from ArbCom to draft guidelines, we might be able to get something together which people might at least accept. And, personally, I do hope for some way to get included some web faiths, like the modern form of Deism, which is extensively mentioned at Examiner.com, which is neither independent or reliable by our standards, but so far as I can see not yet discussed in any independent sources such that we would have much reason to have content on it. John Carter (talk) 19:52, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it's no secret that Gordon is "the man"! The man basically started collecting material on NRMs starting in the early 1970s and never threw anything away! Then, he started going back to gather older historical documents and not only that, he remembers every conversation he's had and everything he's read. The only people who don't care for him are the most strident anti-cult folks because he had an open door policy...he'd organize a conference and ask people from NRMs to come and talk about their beliefs and societies and some people who hate cults (not specific ones, just cults in general) thought he was giving them a platform to evangelize. But the NRM reps. still had to write up a standard academic presentation so it's not like they were trying to convert anyone in the audience. But for some people, choosing not to judge others is seen as evidence that you agree with them which is just not the case. 20:06, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Talkback
—Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Talkback
—Justin ( koavf ) ❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:52, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Natalie Tran
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Thanks
Thank you so much for your comments on the ANI board at Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents. I was in abject despair about the way so many ganged up on me without cause. To have a little common sense applied was (to me) like giving water to a man in the desert. I really do hope it's caused others to stop and have pause for thought. SonofSetanta (talk) 09:25, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, you're welcome, SonofSetanta. That got really ugly. I've been reading a lot of noticeboards and dispute resolution cases lately and it seems like half of the time, the conversation boomerangs back on to the OP and he or she ends up facing sanctions for bringing a case to a noticeboard. The OP becomes the topic of discussion instead of the original complaint that is filed.
 * It seems unfair that 3 or 4 vocal opponents in an ANI can generate a topic ban when the original question was on something else entirely. I'm so glad that the people reading the page could see the transparent attack upon you. Liz Let's Talk 18:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


 * P.S. Sorry I missed seeing this when you first posted it. It's time to move some discussion on my Talk Page. Liz Let's Talk 18:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Speedy deletion declined: 2013 New Haven Open at Yale – Doubles
Hello Newjerseyliz. I am just letting you know that I declined the speedy deletion of 2013 New Haven Open at Yale – Doubles, a page you tagged for speedy deletion, because of the following concern: '''That notable people are playing in it is a good indication of notability. Needs to be PRODded or taken to AfD.''' Thank you. Ged UK  11:45, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * That's fair, Ged  UK . Feel free to object and move it to somewhere more appropriate. It seemed to me to be a local sporting event and I didn't see it's significance for Wikipedia. Lots of communities have golf tournaments or marathons or tennis tournaments and don't have a Wikipedia page about it. But I could be wrong. Good luck! Liz Let's Talk 18:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Newjerseyliz (talk • contribs)

LGBT guidelines
Hey, just checking if you saw my response to your post about LGBT categorization guidelines. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 18:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, my, Roscelese, thanks for letting me know. I did some work with CfD in late July and there didn't seem to be a lot of movement so I hadn't checked back. Now I will! Is this in WP:EGRS? Liz Let's Talk 18:36, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I didn't see any response to my question at WP:EGRS so maybe you can point me to the right page. Thanks! Liz Let's Talk 18:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, sorry, here. –Roscelese (talk &sdot; contribs) 18:55, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Roscelese, I also posted this question at WP:EGRS and I believe BLP (maybe the WikiProject on Actors, too). I posted a reply to you at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies.
 * I thought this really was an issue for WP LGBT to decide but since you're giving me the only feedback I've received, I might take it to the RSN and see what they say. They are pretty responsive but I think I already know how they will answer (documentation is required). Liz Let's Talk 21:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons
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Speedy deletion nomination of Liz/Whiteboard
Hello Liz,

I wanted to let you know that I just tagged Liz/Whiteboard for deletion, because it seems to be a test. Did you know that the Wikipedia Sandbox is available for testing out edits?

If you feel that the article shouldn't be deleted and want more time to work on it, you can contest this deletion, but please don't remove the speedy deletion tag from the top.

You can leave a note on my talk page if you have questions. TheLongTone (talk) 11:52, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * TheLongTone, I just decided to call my Sandbox page "Whiteboard" instead. I've seen some users with dozens of sub-pages with different kinds of names (one user calls their Sandbox "Litterbox" instead) so I'm surprised that this page has even gotten the attention of any other users besides myself. Liz Let's Talk 11:59, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi Liz. All fixed up. See
 * User:Liz/Whiteboard
 * User talk:Liz/Whiteboard
 * Any problems, please let me know. Peter aka --Shirt58 (talk) 11:22, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your help, Shirt58! Have a great day. Full moon tonight! ;-) Liz Let's Talk 13:41, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Icons
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Thought you would enjoy this link quoting Morwen
http://www.buzzfeed.com/justinesharrock/wikipedia-changed-its-entry-to-properly-reflect-chelsea-mann

Morwen also blogged here: http://abigailbrady.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/chelsea-manning-on-pressing-button.html

-- \/\/slack (talk) 04:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, \/\/slack ! I just finished reading it. I appreciate the alert! Liz Let's Talk 12:42, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Valerie Sutton
I see that you succeeded in getting the article on Valerie Sutton deleted. It is absolutely stupid things like this that are why I hardly ever edit Wikipedia anymore and stick to Wikia, where I don't run into such things.

VS created a system to record movement. It is now used by many people. I do not see how you could possibly consider the article, as written, to be nothing but a promotion for her systems. It was purely a biography and a history of how the system of movement writing came to be designed.

The article was no more a promotion than a biography of Henry Ford is a commercial for Ford cars, or a biography of Bill Gates a commercial for Microsoft.

You've given me one more reason not to bother editing on Wikipedia. -- BRG (talk) 12:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry if my action is part of the reason why you might quit editing on Wikipedia, BRG. The reason for the article deletion was:
 * "G11: Unambiguous advertising or promotion: image is copyright, "refs" are spamlinks, not independent, don'tsupport text support.
 * You can always appeal a deletion, of course (nothing is ever truly deleted!). I know that deleted pages can be restored if an editor can say they will address the problems that existed in the article. I don't know the specific page to go to so I'd suggest asking Jimfbleak for clarification about this deletion. NewJerseyLiz Let's Talk 12:48, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * It is hard to "address the problems that existed in the article" because I cannot figure out what words you found to be "unambiguous advertising or promotion." I can't for the life of me figure out what words led you to characterize it as such.
 * By not stating where you found words that were "promotional," you gave me no way to defend the article specifically. It's blind-side attacks like this that make me disinclined to do anything on Wikipedia except correct typos and stuff like that. --BRG (talk) 03:43, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * BRG, I tagged the article because it was self-promotional, it read like a fan page and had few references. But I don't believe you have to rebut my reasons for tagging it, just make a good argument about why it shouldn't have been deleted.
 * But as I said above, I recommend you contact Jimfbleak for clarification as he was the user who actually deleted the article. Liz 'Read!' 'Talk!' 13:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Prince George of Cambridge
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Wikidata weekly summary #72
Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week. Read the full report · Unsubscribe · Global message delivery 21:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Discussions
 * Discussion started about improving the RfC process
 * d:Wikidata:Requests for comment/References and sources has been closed
 * Events/Press/Blogs
 * Report from Wikimania
 * Wikidata meets Incubator
 * Office hour on 26th
 * Other Noteworthy Stuff
 * Average edits per page is nearly 5 now.
 * Wikivoyage is still scheduled to get access to data on Wikidata (aka phase 2) on August 26.
 * Developers are working hard to also make the URL datatype available by August 26 but there are factors that are not in their hands so it might have to be delayed until the next deployment in 2 weeks. URL as a datatype will soon be available on test.wikidata.org. Please give it some thorough testing and report bugs.
 * Outsch! (Help collect and fix paper cuts.)
 * Did you know?
 * 20 undescribed monsters
 * Newest properties: separated from (P807), code Bien de Interés Cultural (P808), WPDA id (P809), academic minor (P811), academic major (P812), date retrieved (P813), IUCN protected areas category (P814), ITIS TSN (P815), decays to (P816), decay mode (P817)
 * Development
 * Prepared deployment of phase 2 on Wikivoyage
 * Worked on ability to sort qualifiers and references inside a statement
 * Started work on an api module to merge items
 * Worked on special page to query for items with one specific property and value
 * Cleaned up code for handling recent change entries from Wikidata in the clients (Wikipedia/Wikivoyage)
 * Worked on generic script for populating sites table and better integration with WMF process for creating new wikis
 * Setup new git repo for WikibaseMobile skin and extension
 * Fixed SetClaim api module to properly mark bot edits in recent changes and advised pywikipedia maintainers about adding support for the module. SetClaim can be used to create claims with references in a single edit.
 * Reviewed code for Google Summer of Code students
 * Updated doxygen documentation
 * Open Tasks for You
 * Report a paper cut (see above).
 * Help fix formatting and value issues for a property.
 * Hack on one of these.

Discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC Reviewer permission
You are invited to join the discussion at WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC Reviewer permission. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:22, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

By the way
If you're interested in the evolution of the Vatican position on homosexuality you should definitely join the discussion/fray at Homosexuality and Roman Catholicism! I've been mostly staying outside of the doctrinal bits other than to revert obvious factual inaccuracies, but you sound like you have more knowledge of the subject. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 13:23, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, that is a complicated mess, Roscelese. I was more on top of things in the 1980s when I was living in San Francisco and all I know is that JPII later issued more compassionate statements and less about homosexuality as a "disorder". But I'll check in and look over the conversation. I'm just not up, right now, on the most recent official documents. Liz  Read! Talk! 13:27, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Valerie Sutton
I posted the deleted text here. If you want to check, all I've removed is an image which appears not to be copyright-free. I can't believe that there are TWO users (at least) with that irritating hummingbird!!!!  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  14:56, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know, Jimfbleak. I didn't mean to pass the buck but I couldn't recall too many particulars of that article.
 * As for the hummingbird, maybe it's time to move that to my sandbox. Kind of MySpacey, I guess. Liz  Read! Talk! 15:45, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Georgian alphabet
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RfC
Hi Liz, I noticed you are signed up for the feedback request service. You may want to comment on this RfC Talk:Gospel of the Hebrews and the GA nomination as well. Ignocrates (talk) 16:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, my, Ignocrates, I'm not sure I want to step back into this dispute! I thought things had quieted down. I'll check in and look at the discussion but I'm not a biblical scholar so I'm not a master of ancient texts. Thank's for the head's up...I think. ;-) Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 17:28, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This is not that same tired old dispute. This is a new dispute. Why stop at just one! :0D Ignocrates (talk) 18:05, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * But still the same people arguing, Ignocrates? Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:09, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there is that little problem. You can get the monkey off your back, but the circus stays in town forever. Ignocrates (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see an "argument," I see from my end a reasonable question about the scope. Of course, I can see how some people would try to avoid dealing with that question, and how that might cause them to make it an "argument," rather than a reasonable discussion about what the article should cover.
 * The question here seems to me to be about the content of the article more than anything else. There are at least two works which have been called "Gospel of the Hebrews," one being that source (or those sources) generally referred to as such by scholars today and at least one other called by that name by Jerome. Honestly, as they themselves never really indicated that they were referring to the same book, there is some question whether we should make that assumption either. Honestly, I don't know, but I would assume that if the ABD discusses them both (or all) in the same article first, and then describes the way that scholarship arrived at its current basic consensus, that there were two (at least) and that one seems to be similar (if not identical) to the Gospel of the Nazoreans, that being the one Jerome talked about, and, finally, coming to conclusions (admittedly not supported by any direct evidence) about what can be gathered about the remaining material, if it is all about the same source. The ABD says this is one of the most "vexing problems in the study of early Christian literature," so I think most people would agree with you that it is a thorny one, but it is also, I think, based on that, a very relevant matter. But, yeah, it is a thorny matter, and I can well imagine that others might not want to weigh in on something even academia isn't really sure about. John Carter (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * You are forgetting that PiCo worked hard to fix up this article, and part of that fix involved restricting the scope. Since then the article has been remarkably stable (until now). That was the point of pulling out all the Hebrew Gospel material: to put an end to the ceaseless edit-warring. The "vexing problems" were moved to the parent Jewish-Christian gospels article where text-critical issues involving both the Gospel of the Hebrews and the Gospel of the Nazoraeans are considered together. Ignocrates (talk) 18:25, 25 August 2013 (UTC)


 * John, you make some valid points and this debate should really happen on Talk:Gospel of the Hebrews not my Talk Page as I am far from an authority on scriptural texts. I've done some work with archival material but none of it involved ancient religious texts. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:29, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The Signpost: 21 August 2013
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"...it's crucial to listen to what they have to say about their experience on WP..."
FYI. WikiProject Editor Retention/Soliloquies may be interesting to you. ```<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:black">Buster Seven  <em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:black"> Talk  05:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, ```<em style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC;color:black">Buster Seven , I'll check it out! Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 09:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Shooting of Trayvon Martin
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Details on my talk
Second set of details on my talk. Pumpkin Sky  talk  00:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, Pumpkin Sky !  Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 00:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Whisperback
<span style="font-family:'Arial',cursive"> Miss Bono  [zootalk]  17:16, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:List of Jem episodes
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New Teahouse message
Yo, Liz, I've answered your latest Teahouse question. (I kinda doubt you need talkbacks, but figured I'd give you a non-template one, just in case.) :) Writ Keeper (WK to move) &#9863;&#9812; 15:46, 27 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Much appreciated, Writ Keeper! ;-) Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:05, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Curious
Hi, Liz ... I've been seeing you around everywhere, and I'm just stopping by to let you know that the story being told about Raul/FAC on Pumpkinsky's page is ... one person's version at the most charitable. If you are interested in following some facts, you might start here, where you will find that Pumpkinsky (whose former identity was not revealed until well into the four RFCs) had joined with a very small handful of other now-banned or indef-blocked socks and users who were bearing grudges and attempting to force a change in leadership at FAC ... a proposed change that was rejected in four different RFCs, including the largest one, here: Once those four RFCs failed to yield the results that small group wanted, the "battleground" (literally) moved over to WP:TFAR, and they eventually succeeded in chasing off Raul, before several of them were banned or uncovered as socks, which is why your queries likely went unanswered. Regards, Sandy Georgia (Talk) 00:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Featured articles/2012 RfC on FA leadership


 * "I've been seeing you around everywhere..."
 * You don't say this like it's a good thing, Sandy Georgia !
 * I just ran across Raul's name on several pages, he was still being listed as the current editor/director in charge but when I went to his page, it showed he hadn't been active since February 2013. So, I was curious and when his name came up in comments, I inquired what the story was. But I'm not taking sides and realize I might be hearing one side of the story. I just recently went from being an uninvolved, casual editor to one who wants to understand how things like the ARBCOM and AN/I works and is trying to find some aspect of Wikipedia (AfD, CfD, AfC, etc.) where I can put my effort.
 * But I do appreciate you taking the time to come to my Talk Page and tell me your understanding of what occurred. I'm still figuring things out and so any information is good to know. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 17:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * "You don't say this like it's a good thing, ..." I'm not sure how I left that impression, but not at all! Regards, Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 18:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, I didn't mean to read anything into it, Sandy Georgia . I have been self-conscious about weighing in on different forums when I was a pretty uninvolved, isolated editor. In one embarrassing incident, I explained to another user how to file a RfD when it turns out they were very experienced. So, I'm kind of bumbling my way through the deeper levels of Wikipedia (or, as I call it, "Wikipedia: Editing Beyond Typos"). Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * With a bazillion edits, I never quite made it to the "beyond typos" part! Sandy Georgia (Talk) 18:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm still basically the same. I've seen some editors lecturing people that they should pick an area of Wikipedia and concentrate on improving it. I might be spreading myself too thin but I haven't felt affinity to any particular WikiProject. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:48, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. By the way, I stumbled into Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive55 and it's more than I can get through! Looks like this was a hot topic earlier this year. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

WikiCup 2013 August newsletter
This year's final is upon us. Our final eight, in order of last round's score, are:
 * , a WikiCup newcomer who has contributed on topics of military history and physics, including a number of high-importance topics. Good articles have made up the bulk of his points, but he has also scored a great deal of bonus points. He has the second highest score overall so far, with more than 3000 points accumulated.
 * , another WikiCup veteran who reached the finals in 2012, 2011 and 2010. He writes on a variety of topics including botany, mycology and astronomy, and has claimed the highest or joint highest number of featured articles every round so far this year. He has the third highest score overall, with just under 3000 points accumulated.
 * , 2012 WikiCup champion, who writes mostly on marine biology. She has also contributed to high-importance topics, seeing huge numbers of bonus points for high-importance featured and good articles. Previous rounds have seen her scoring the most bonus points, with scoring spread across did you knows, good articles and featured articles.
 * , a WikiCup veteran who finished in second place in 2012, and competed as early as 2009. He writes articles on biology, especially mycology, and has scored highly for a number of collaborations at featured article candidates.
 * , the winner of the 2010 competition. His contributions mostly concern Naval history, and he has scored a very large number of points for good articles and good article reviews in every round. He is the highest scorer overall this year, with over 3500 points in total.
 * , who is competing in the WikiCup for the second time, though this will be her first time in the final. A regular at FAC, she is mostly interested in British medieval history, and has scored very highly for some top-importance featured articles on the topic.
 * , a finalist in 2012 and 2011. He writes on a broad variety of topics, with many of this year's points coming from good articles about Star Trek. Good articles make up the bulk of his points, and he had the most good articles back in round 2; he was also the highest scorer for DYK in rounds 1 and 2.
 * 1) has previously been involved with the WikiCup, but hasn't participated for a number of years. He scores mostly from restoration work leading to featured picture credits, but has also done some article writing and reviewing.

We say goodbye to eight great participants who did not qualify for the final:, , , , , , ,. Having made it to this stage is still an excellent achievement, and you can leave with your heads held high. We hope to see you all again next year. Signups are now open for the 2014 WikiCup, which will begin on 1 January. All Wikipedians, whatever their interest or level of experience, are warmly invited to participate in next year's competition.

This last month has seen some incredible contributions; for instance, Cwmhiraeth's Starfish and Ealdgyth's Battle of Hastings—two highly important, highly viewed pages—made it to featured article status. It would be all too easy to focus solely on these stunning achievements at the expense of those participants working in lower-scoring areas, when in fact all WikiCup participants are doing excellent work. A mention of everything done is impossible, but here are a few: Last round saw the completion of several good topics (on the 1958, 1959 and 1962 Atlantic hurricane seasons) to which 12george1 had contributed. Calvin999 saw "S&M" (song), on which he has been working for several years, through to featured article status on its tenth try. Figureskatingfan continued towards her goal of a broad featured/good topic on Maya Angelou, with two featured and four good articles. ThaddeusB contributed significantly to over 20 articles which appeared on the main page's "in the news" section. Adam Cuerden continued to restore a large number of historical images, resulting in over a dozen FP credits this round alone. The WikiCup is not just about top-importance featured articles, and the work of all of these users is worthy of commendation.

Finally, the usual notices: If you are concerned that your nomination—whether it is at good article candidates, a featured process, or anywhere else—will not receive the necessary reviews, please list it on WikiCup/Reviews. If you want to help out with the WikiCup, please do your bit to reduce the review backlogs! Questions are welcome on Wikipedia talk:WikiCup, and the judges are reachable on their talk pages or by email. Good luck! If you wish to start or stop receiving this newsletter, please feel free to add or remove yourself from WikiCup/Newsletter/Send. J Milburn (talk • email) and The ed17 (talk • email) 05:11, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Please comment on Talk:Persecution of indigenous peoples in Bangladesh
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Claims to be the fastest-growing religion
This article, and the related deletion discussion, might be in your field, and I think it would probably welcome additional outsider input. John Carter (talk) 19:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, John Carter. That is an extremely hard statistic to determine unless you are limiting your study to a well-defined geographic region where there is a history of data collection on religion (which is not common). Many people rely on churches estimates of membership which are variable and unreliable data. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 20:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is supposed to be about the factual statistic, but the various claims made by, oh, purty much everybody, it looks like, to qualify as the fastest growing group. And, yeah, I've seen quite a few such claims myself. Also, while I'm bugging you here, I was wondering what you might think about WikiProject Theology. There is a separate and closely related concept, Thealogy, and, considering the apparent inactivity of that project, whether it might be best merged into the Religion WikiProject. I would support such a merge myself, but I honestly don't know whether we should use the existing name, or maybe change it to a more inclusive title, which wouldn't seem to rule out religious philosophy relating to a goddess, which is, I think, what thealogy is supposed to be. John Carter (talk) 20:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, John, I would leave topics regarding Feminist Spirituality alone (see Talk:Thealogy). They very clearly set out a separate space from mainstream patriarchal religions and trying to subsume them under a Theology banner would not respect that and would seem WP:POINTY. It doesn't matter if not one has worked on it recently. Feel free to place a template on it that it needs improvement or post a question suggesting it on the Talk Page but Categories are political (see WP:EGRS). I just think there are plenty projects you could work on that wouldn't stir up a hornet's nest!
 * Personally, I'm more interested in dull things like determining membership and conflict in leadership structures in religious organization (religion, modern history and sociology). While I identify as a feminist, feminist spirituality isn't my thing. But I respect how important it is to some women and as long as the articles have proper references, I would let the people who care, define their own terms rather than imposing a conformity on to them. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 22:13, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I only mentioned it because you said you were involved in NRMs, and to my eyes, as someone who doesn't know a lot of NRM topics that well, it looked like it might be basically related to the scope of the inactive Theology project, maybe enough to perhaps rename that project if it were "merged" into the parent Religion project, if it were in the scope, for "neutrality" purposes. Also, FWIW, having seen you want to eventually become an admin, I think weighing in on discussions like you have been in some fields will really help a lot, but that there are people who seem to indicate that they want more people involved in content development as admins. Also, I think it is great that we have something interested in the history and organization of groups, which don't get that much attention in general around here. If you think that maybe I could help in maybe getting some sources you might want on some related topic, just let me know. John Carter (talk) 16:28, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Talk page archiving
Just noticed the red link in the archive template at the top of this page. You might want to check that. John Carter (talk) 16:19, 29 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thanks, John. I am not sure at all if I have the archive code correct. I just copied it from someone else's Talk Page. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 19:26, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikidata weekly summary #73
<div style="margin-top:10px; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Here's your quick overview of what has been happening around Wikidata over the last week. <div style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;">Read the full report · Unsubscribe · Global message delivery 13:10, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Discussions
 * Request for comment on Geo Coordinates for people
 * Request for comment on reuse of data from DBpedia
 * Events/Press/Blogs
 * State of the Map (September 6-8, 2013)
 * Recent office hour logs now availible.
 * Other Noteworthy Stuff
 * Abraham, Denny and Lydia sat down for an evening trying to capture what Wikidata is about in a video.
 * Deployment! Wikivoyage now has access to the wikidata dataset and various other bugs have also been fixed (including the copyright warning)!
 * Did you know?
 * Newest properties: interchange station (P833), public holiday (P832), parent club (P831), Encyclopedia of Life (P830), OEIS ID (P829), possible causes (P828), BBC programme identifier (P827), tonality (P826), dedicated to (P825), Meteoritical Bulletin Database ID (P824)
 * Newest task forces: País Valencià task force
 * Development
 * Work on allowing API module editentities to edit claims
 * Work on entity / item redirects
 * Work on support for moving qualifiers in API and Frontend
 * Adding coordinates to diff display and improving diff display code
 * Allowing site groups for language links on clients to be configurable (needed for commons)
 * EntityId changes, we are now working on 0.5!
 * Show snaktype in summary for novalue and somevalue snaks
 * Further work on merge module for the API
 * Wrote missing tests for various jQuery widgets
 * Work on value formatters
 * Continue on moving tests to cucumber
 * Bug fixes for coordinates following the latest deployment
 * Open Tasks for You
 * Report a paper cut (see above).
 * Help fix formatting and value issues for a property.
 * Hack on one of these.

The Signpost: 28 August 2013
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Please comment on Talk:Bangladesh Liberation War
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Please comment on Talk:Lucio Dalla
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Interview request: Your interactions with new editors
I'm contacting you about a study that I'm running with TheOriginalSoni exploring newcomer mentorship activities in Wikipedia. I'd like to ask you a few questions about your interactions with newcomers and to explore how a tool like WP:Snuggle might make your work easier. The interview and demo session will take 30 minutes to an hour depending on how much time we spend discussing things. If you're interested, let me know. If not, disregard this message and I won't bother you again. Thanks for your consideration. --<span style="display:inline-block;padding:0 .25em;border:1px solid #999;box-shadow:.1em .1em .1em rgba(0,0,0,.5);border-radius:3px;">EpochFail (talk • contribs) 14:53, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Study overview: meta:Research:Peer_mentorship_and_snuggle
 * Consent form: meta:Research:Peer_mentorship_and_snuggle/Consent

Comments
First, I thought you might be interested in taking part at the RfC at Talk:List of new religious movements. Also, if you have anything you wish to contribute to Arbitration/Requests/Case, feel free to do so. John Carter (talk) 21:16, 4 September 2013 (UTC)