User:Σ/Testing facility/TP/TpProt/148

October 2013
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 * | Director Oliver Stone

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 * philosophy|political]]/moral philosophy, and philosophy of language thereof, phenomenology, and philosophy in film.

Deleted contribs
Yo, Liz, I saw your reply on ANI, and decided to bring it here for further discussion, only because it's kinda off-topic from the point of the ANI thread. Anyway, I'm not really sure what your point is. I mean, anyone's edits can be deleted through page deletion; I have 2,168 deleted contribs, and you have 73. I suppose you're right in the sense that an IP address may, on some level, have fewer deleted contribs than a user account (simply because IP addresses cannot create articles in main space), but that doesn't mean they're immune to them, nor that they're immune to being blocked due to them. IPs can (and have) created articles in the Talk: namespace, and they're allowed to create articles at AfC, too, so they can still create articles that can then be deleted. Not to mention that they can make edits to articles that have been created by others that are then deleted; as one example, it's not unknown for people to contribute an obviously inappropriate article and then, when it is nominated for speedy deletion, they log out and edit the page to be deleted as an IP address, to create the illusion of support and to evade the restriction that article authors cannot remove deletion tags from their own articles. And of course, registered usernames are a whole 'nother kettle of fish. By the way, in the future, if you come across one of these accounts, you can use a tool on the toolserver (here) to look up a user's contribution count, and this will also give you a deleted contribs count. So yeah, I'd be happy to answer any questions that I can. Writ Keeper &#9863;&#9812; 03:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the additional information, Writ Keeper. That whole conversation got off-track but that's not unusual on the noticeboards. Some Editor comes in with a specific complaint and people end up debating some other point. I appreciate you addressing my question. Liz  Read! Talk! 13:44, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Mistake?
I hope was a mistake? --regentspark (comment) 14:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, thanks for pointing it out to me so that I could undo it, regentspark. I was using STiki and it doesn't give the user very much context, or mentions that I was reverting a revert. Thanks again for catching that. Liz  Read! Talk! 14:16, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Friendly heads up
Hi Liz, just thought to mention that in this edit you removed part of a comment you made that had already been responded to. In this instance I don't care, and likely no one else will either, but for future you may want to consider striking the comment rather than removing per WP:REDACT. Cheers, -- — Keithbob • Talk  • 15:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely right, Keithbob. I'll undo it. Liz  <b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 15:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

thanks
Hi Liz - thanks for the cat cleanup on a lot of the philosopher articles I've put up recently. I'll make a greater effort to get them in the right set of cats from the get-go in the future. Also... your Jimbo.. your Jimbo... it's staring at me.... :p Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:50, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * LOL! Well, Kevin I do a lot of work with categorization. I find it satisfies my need for putting things in order, I learn a lot and there are some big projects that need to be done regarding gender categorization. For a while, I was picking a nationality and changing all of the "actors" to "male actors" since the powers that be decided to use "actresses" so we need to place men in a similar gendered category.
 * I'm not sure what led me to look at philosophers but I noted there were only about 225 women philosophers currently in that category, so that is a manageable problem that I could work on. For example, there is another category change I need to get to eventually that has over 1200 articles to change and that just seems like such a large number to take on. Maybe one day!
 * Regarding Jimbo, I know people hate animated gifs but I thought that one was so funny and, since you have to linger on the page a few moments before he pops in, not everyone would see it. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 23:09, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * P.S. I think it is great you are working on articles on women philosophers. Some of the ones that Wikipedia does have are no more than stubs. I'd love to know more about Collegium of Black Women Philosophers, that sounds like an interesting group. I'll see if they have an online presence. L.
 * Only 225, and I've written probably 30 of them in the recent past... kind of depressing ;) The Collegium does have some online presence, and there's been enough coverage of them in various places that they'd pass the GNG fairly easily. I'll hopefully get around to writing an article about them eventually, but decided to go ahead and start with people.  Further depressing fact pulled from an article by Kathryn Gines: there are less than thirty Black women with phds in philosophy working in academia in the US today.  You could, quite literally, fit all of them in a classroom together. Black capitalized per Kathryn's logic in her essay about the founding of the collegium. Let me know if you feel like writing about the Collegium (or anything else) and need me to pull articles for you if you don't have access to an academic library :) Kevin Gorman (talk) 23:24, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I spent half of my life in academia but right now, I'm not affiliated with a university and my own library is boxed up so references are inaccessible (and I don't have much faith in online sources unless it's news). Maybe when I get more confidence, I'll work on article creation. Even though I see hundreds of badly written, insubstantial, unreferenced articles as I traverse through Wikipedia, I've seen newly-created, starter articles get deleted every day. So, I want to make sure I have the necessary resources to write a decent article.
 * But thanks for the offer! Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 23:38, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Sheldrake/Tumbleman
It would be very helpful, IMHO, if you could post some sort of opinion HERE. The Sheldrake talk page is short of people who know how to express opinions politely and helpfully. Anything at all from such a person could serve as an example to others. Lou Sander (talk) 01:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow, Lou, I've already alienated so many fellow Editors when I defended Tumbleman after he was blocked, I don't think I'd be seen as neutral (despite truly, honestly, not caring about Sheldrake). My actual interest in reading through through alllllll the Talk Page comments was to see how consensus could be arrived at when there are Editors with such different points of view. I no longer think that's possible but I haven't seen what's been going on there for the past week, maybe conditions have improved...well, it's a possibility, even a slim one, right? Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 01:57, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey, you know how to reason, and you appear to be a Decent Human Being. Who cares whether they think you are neutral? Voice an opinion, ANY opinion, and show those who lack those attributes how it's done. Lou Sander (talk) 02:01, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that's the nicest thing I've heard lately. Thanks, Lou! Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 02:16, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

There is currently a discussion at Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The discussion is about the topic Lou Sander&. Thank you.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  09:18, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

the section is Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  09:21, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * It's hard to know these folks' motivation. My working hypothesis is that they are very young, and this is a place where grownups have to listen to them. Their incessant scolding and sarcasm are probably a passing along of what they get themselves at home and school. A child learns what he lives. Lou Sander (talk) 19:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * They have this lame, childish "let's call everyone who disagrees with us a 'troll' and get them banned" attitude. You would think that if they were so sure of their position, they wouldn't rely on tactics to remove opponents from the discussion, that they would let their superior argument help form consensus. Instead they annoy everyone at AN/I. They seem to prefer drama over compromise.
 * By the way, I've noticed at least one account seems to be a SPA who just seems to be here to edit the Sheldrake article. And several accounts have less than 1,000 edits, for what it's worth.
 * And, since I don't know where you stand, I assume that given the people trying to get you blocked, Lou, that you are either sympathetic or neutral about Sheldrake? When I read over the Talk Page comments a week or two ago, I didn't notice your remarks (sorry).  Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 20:02, 24 October 2013 (UTC)


 * I think they ARE very insecure in their arguments, and thus the childish behavior. I'm basically neutral on Sheldrake. I've read some of his books and find them interesting. I'm open to all kinds of alternative ideas, but they don't loom very large in my life. On Wikipedia, I just want to get Sheldrake a fair BLP article, written neutrally. It's not appropriate, IMHO, when the section on his books starts off with "He has been criticized for writing books for the general public, rather than going through the peer review process," based on some critical quote from The Guardian. I REALLY dislike it when that stuff creeps into the lead. They can't just say "he challenges some basic tenets of modern science" without following it up with "he thinks perpetual motion machines are possible, and everybody knows that perpetual motion machines are impossible, the idiot" (or words to that effect). The editors think that every time something from him is said, it has to be balanced by something from the mainstream. That may be their legitimate understanding, or maybe it's just part of their crusade. My comments on the talk page are usually brief, so they tend to get drowned out by the endless blather. Lou Sander (talk) 21:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow, Lou, you sound radically, radically neutral. Wanting to give Sheldrake a fair BLP article, now that's totally fringe and outrageous! No wonder they want you topic banned, it actually sounds like you might do something constructive like creating a better article instead of joining in with the incessant squabbling.
 * Maybe we do share the same point of view. Damn, now I'm on their hit list, too. I know my dull, routine work categorizing actors and philosophers is skirting sanctions of some kind. Well, I know I'll make a mistake sooner or later that can be dressed up in bows, ribbons and diffs and taken to AN/I. And just when I was getting into an editing rhythm. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 21:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Rada Iveković
Biggest problem here is the lack of independent third-party in-depth reliable sources to show notability. Plus it's a BLP, everything needs to be sourced to such sources. If the article doesn't get properly sourced, I'll be nominating it for deletion. Academics aren't automatically notable. Yworo (talk) 19:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I realize that, Yworo. In fact, it is harder for an academic to have a Wikipedia article than it is for a 19 year old back-up dancer for Justin Bieber. What I was thinking is that for two days now, I've been going through dozens of BLP articles on philosophers and, I gotta say, some of them have less information on them than Iveković had on hers.
 * Now, it's not in my nature or Wiki habits to tag a dozen articles on philosophers and take them to AfD, especially when every single episode of Seinfeld has its own page. I think having mediocre listings on some Continental philosophers is infinitely more valuable to the world than having a complete listing of every Pokemon character.
 * So, while I'll admit that you likely have WP guidelines on your side in deleting this article, there is a whole lot of content on Wikipedia that is completely insignificant and insubstantial and I don't believe that having a profile of a Croatian Buddhist philosopher is even on that list. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 20:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Problem is, we have a very strict biography of living persons policy. And we should. If she were deceased, it'd be different. Yworo (talk) 20:54, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's a shame she isn't dead. J/K. I explained my position, Yworo, you do what you have to do and I'll keep categorizing philosophers. I have a work to do.
 * Thanks for taking the time to come to my Talk Page and explain your side of the situation. Lots of Editors are not that thoughtful and I do appreciate it. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 21:00, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Carry on... Editors who know how to do categories properly rock! Yworo (talk) 23:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Categories are quick, they are usually straight-forward and uncontroversial and there aren't people watchlisting categories, leaping to revert edits. They are not very social but sometimes, that's a blessing. Also, they can bring visibility to little known phenomena...who knew there were several noteworthy Lithuanian women philosophers? I didn't until today. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 23:27, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the mention
Hi Liz, thanks for citing me in your discussion on the Teahouse. I won't contribute to your discussion there, for fear of making it too long :p but I totally agree with the issue you raised. <font color="#000" face="Times">Augur <font color="#33f" family="Arial">NZ <font color="#000" size="4">&#x2710; <font size="4" color="#000">&#x2315; 05:45, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, <font color="#000" face="Times">Augur <font color="#33f" family="Arial">NZ, I think your discussion about deletionism was very important. If you look through Teahouse questions, you'll see the same question--new editors frustrated with speedy deletions of new articles--over and over again. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 13:28, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Yet another example of this deletionist regime in action, along with the obligatory knee-jerk reaction to the provided examples. Also, I've mentioned you in my farewell speech. Thanks for your support previously. <font color="#000" face="Times">Augur <font color="#33f" family="Arial">NZ <font color="#000" size="4">&#x2710;  <font size="4" color="#000">&#x2315;  20:13, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry to read about your frustration, <font color="#000" face="Times">Augur <font color="#33f" family="Arial">NZ <font color="#000" size="4">&#x2710;  . I find the image copyright legalese confusing so I have done absolutely nothing with photos or images on Wikipedia. I'm sorry that this has led to you deciding to quit but, remember, accounts aren't deleted, they just go inactive. You can always return at another time. Policies do change over time as do attitudes. And, in WP, there are no deadlines and it'll still be here tomorrow and next year. All the best, Augur!  Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 20:25, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

RolandR
Hello Liz, Can you help me with RolandR? He is wrong about all my contribs (Heidegger, Hölderlin, Benjamin and so on). Thank you! I´m Ketxus — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ketxus (talk • contribs) 01:48, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Ketxus, I'm not sure what you are asking me to help you with or who RolandR is. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 02:15, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't worry Liz, it is not easy to explain. Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ketxus (talk • contribs) 02:49, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Philosophers
I've met a real one. A pretty important one, as I understand it: Nicholas Rescher. Lou Sander (talk) 14:25, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not familiar with Rescher. In my 20s, I studied with Jacob Needleman but his Wikipedia article is pitiful. I'm surprised his students haven't made it more substantial. I guess I'll get around to doing that one day. He's had a long career.