User:Σ/Testing facility/TP/TpProt/546

Errrrrrrrr. G'day!
I've replied. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 15:49, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for letting me know, Pdfpdf! Liz  Read! Talk! 15:55, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * No worries. As I've often said:  T'ain't What You Do (It's the Way That You Do It), and one of the reasons I enjoy communicating with you is because I like "the Way That You Do It". Pdfpdf (talk) 16:02, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * a) "Talkback" b) It's nearly 2am here - past time to "retire'. Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 16:13, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Goodnight, Pdfpdf! Liz  Read! Talk! 16:18, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

''P.S. Regarding this, see the first sentence of List of Wikipedians by number of edits. (Or am I missing something?) Anyway - bedtime! Pdfpdf (talk) 16:27, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right, Pdfpdf, there they are. They aren't very prominent though. I've looked over this page a dozen times and never noticed those links. So, thanks for pointing them out to me. Liz  Read! Talk! 16:44, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with what you say, because I had to expend some effort to find them, and I knew what I was looking for, and I knew they were there ... somewhere. Pdfpdf (talk) 16:58, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Go.to.bed, Pdfpdf! ;-) See you when the sun come up down under. Liz  <b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 17:11, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

Whisperback
08:58, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

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Teenly
I've been crying after reading that talk page and her contributions both the articles and other pages. I find it difficult to believe that she was as young as is stated but even if she was three times that age, well, what she had to offer was amazing. Life just isn't fair sometimes. - Sitush (talk) 20:24, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure how you came across my question about Teenly, Sitush, you must have that Departed Wikipedians page on your Watchlist. Yes, it's hard to believe that a 6 year old was actually editing on WP and communicating with others. But her User Talk Page doesn't read like a hoax. And, in my years on Twitter, I'm pretty familiar with accounts that pretend to be sick children. This doesn't sound like those.
 * If you found her Page moving, read the note that mentioned her passing at User:Bwilkins ...I think any Editor would tear up after receiving a note like that on their Talk Page. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 21:32, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Departed page is watchlisted from the time when Tito Dutta was improving it earlier this year. I agree that Teenly is not a hoax. She was clearly a very gifted child, and I've known a couple. I just find it very upsetting: what we've lost and what she gave. I don't usually get too bothered about deaths or about children but reading of and around this particular one hurts. It seems that I have a heart after all but it is preventing me from editing right now, so I'm going to sign off for a bit. - Sitush (talk) 21:43, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a surprise to me that WP brought a small child pleasure but with what she was dealing with, I'm glad it could provide a little distraction from her illness. Take care, Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 23:55, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

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 * EdwardsBot (talk) 00:43, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

A cupcake for you!
Wow, thanks, <b style= "color:#090;">Keithbob</b>, it's appreciated. I wish I could remember how I ended up on the edge of this fierce dispute since I have no opinion about subject. I hesitated to get involved at ARBCOM because I'm more of a witness to a fight than an involved party (and this fight has lasted six years!). I've made a few comments on the Workshop page until I saw how many ideas were being put on the table and I think the Arbs need to sort this out themselves.

But I appreciate you noticing! Have a great week! Liz <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 22:34, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Talkback (Ks0stm)
Ks0stm (T•C•G•E) 19:47, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Changes to Wael Hallaq
Dear Liz,

I submit the following for your consideration. First, as I explained recently to Flyer22 on her talk page:

1) the identification "non-Muslim Arab" in the opening sentence, though true, has the effect of stereotyping Wael Hallaq and his academic contributions. Although the fact that he is a non-Muslim and an Arab may be of interest to some readers, stating the fact at the outset gives it undue precedence; this wrong emphasis is a disservice to the living subject of the article and to the reader, and, as I have said, comes off as a an attempt to stereotype. Imagine, for example, if the article on Reza Aslan opened with "Reza Aslan is a non-Christian Persian," or the article on Muhammad Ali opened with "Muhammad Ali is a non-Christian African." 2) For the above reason, I chose to remove "non-Muslim Arab" (which, along with its citation, had been added by another editor), and to insert the term "non-Muslim" into the third sentence of the second paragraph. In this way, the fact may be known to those who, for whatever reason, deem it important, but not in such an essentializing and stereotyping manner. As for "Arab," so much should be evident through the combination of his name and birthplace; it need not be stated at the outset as a defining characteristic--the effect, again, is stereotyping.

Second, I continue to disagree that the phrase "is a prominent scholar" requires citation, and here is the argument I presented to Flyer 22 for the same:

3) As for my choice of the word "prominent" to replace "non-Muslim Arab," this is not POV requiring citation. The facts related in the article are eloquent testimony to Wael Hallaq's prominence in Islamic Studies: three decades in the academic field, two highly-sought-after and influential professorships, nine authored volumes, and some sixty other publications are evidence enough of prominence in an academic field. Prominence is not proven by citing a text which links the subject to the word "prominent;" rather, it is evidenced by the subject's many and influential accomplishments and publications. Scholars and students in the field of Islamic Legal Studies--my own area of study, authorship, and teaching--know the name Wael Hallaq very well.

Finally, I understand the concern you expressed as "Removing sourced material," as the opening "non-Muslim Arab" was indeed cited, and the citation removed when I removed the opening phrase.

Seeking resolution to this persistent rolling back of my edits, I will do the following: 1) I will remove "non-Muslim Arab" for the stereotyping reasons outlined above 2) Despite my continuing disagreement, I will not replace it with anything (i.e., I will not insert "prominent" or any other descriptor) 3) I will retain the citation, and move it to the term "non-Muslim" which now occurs in the second paragraph, deemphasizing the fact so as to avoid stereotyping

Regards, RaHHaal (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)


 * That sounds perfectly reasonable, RaHHaal. Note that these guidelines about language like "well-known", "accomplished", "top-ranked", "most important", "the best", "spectacular", etc. are applied to all profiles and are actually a big problem on articles about entertainers (actors and singers). It's not a standard that is being unjustly applied to this article alone. It's a constant battle on Wikipedia against superlative language.
 * As for Wael Hallaq's prominence, you don't have to find a reference that specifically uses that word. It can be any reference (from a reliable source) to his importance as a scholar that you can find. One source you could cite, for example, is any prominent award or honor he has received or if holds an endowed chair for his professorship. That would demonstrate his prominence.
 * I think Wikipedia has a particularly high bar for academics...there are many scholars who I think should be listed on Wikipedia but there are Editors who evaluate academics and they can't have a regular record of teaching and publishing, they have demonstrate they are exceptional or notable outside of their academic discipline. Since most academics spend the their time on research and don't seek out media attention or publicity, this is a difficult standard to meet.
 * I'm glad we could come to a compromise you can live with at the moment. Note that if these edits are challenged by others, we'll need to move this conversation to the article Talk Page. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:08, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Reference desk
Hi Liz, I am not sure if there are any admins or other well-meaning editors who 'police' the reference desk, sorry I can't really help here :( GiantSnowman 17:40, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, Giant, you can help me if you'll indulge me in one more question: Have you seen disputes concerning the Reference Desks (regarding users, incidents or policies) posted to AN or AN/I in your tenure here at Wikipedia? I'm just wondering if that's where a discussion like this would happen. Thanks for your assistance! Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:16, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, there have certainly been dispute about the RD posted at ANI - but if you're seeking more guidance then I'd try AN. GiantSnowman 18:20, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Right now, it's just an observation, Giant. But now I'll search the AN and AN/I archives and see if it is an issue that has come up before. Thanks again. Liz  <sup style="font-family:Times New Roman;"><b style="color:#006400;">Read!</b> <b style="color:#006400;">Talk!</b> 18:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)