User:Agljones/Archive 1

Edward Ambrose Mellors

 * A personal thanks for correcting rider nationalities, and for your "summaries". While I was never greatly interested in the TT before, I find the riders and "racing identities" quite colourful characters, and your race summaries add to the picture. Enjoyed the added H G Tyrell Smith info. I guess I should use tables more often.

On IOM TT site http://www.iomtt.com/TTDatabase/Riders.aspx?ride_id=644 there is a "bio" on Ted Mellors by his daughter that makes some claims I have not been able to verify. She says he was 1938 European Champion, but other sources say Ewald Kluge for '38 and '39. If you come across anything on Mellors please let me know. Seasalt 13:24, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

So it would be correct to say "350 cc European World Champion"? I like the Scotland tag myself. There's another one, Bob McIntyre is it? Not sure. Seasalt 12:25, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The inter-war TTs are all there now. The preambles are all from Isle of Man TT, and I assume are mostly your material, but I don't have any Isle of Man Weekly Times copies to check the dates and quote sources/references. I am hoping you might add them as you edit in new information. I am also hoping that my filling in the results tables and moving preambles was helpful, and not a negative factor. Liked the South African flag change. Did not think of different year/government flag versions. Appropriate. Thank you for the E A (Ted) Mellors info too. Seasalt 14:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Bob McIntyre article
I have just written a Bob McIntyre article, and found you have an article already. I will put it up on my userpage for u to have a look at and see if you feel ok about it being incorporated. Unless you are already working on a full text version, in which case you may feel free to use any portion u think appropriate. I will place the address here as soon as it is up. My apologies. I did not realise u had undertaken it. Seasalt 11:59, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Bob McIntyre draft I have not done any wikilinking in it. Should I? Seasalt 12:31, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the message about Bob McIntyre. I had created the entry after completed the 1957 Isle of Man TT Races entry. I had intended to expand the article for Bob McIntyre around the 100mph lap of 1957. I have been checking source material in regard to Bob McIntrye national service and the accident regarding his death in 1962. I thought about including his Manx Grand Prix entries and also the racing at the Southern 100 Races in the Isle of Man. I have just been looking at the Mike Halewood entry and was not too sure about using these types of summary tables. Perhaps, a format can be agreed to, as I have been using Stanley Woods as a base entry.

If you would like to go ahead and expand the entry for Bob McIntyre and perhaps include a photo. I had been waiting for somebody to contact me about the recent additions, but thought it may have been in respect to another entry rather than Bob McIntyre. I would like to expand the Jimmie Guthrie entry as I have been trying to check his war service. I understand both Guthrie and McIntrye where dispatch riders as was Geoff Duke.

Thanks (Agljones 12:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC))


 * Someone I'd do if I could find info, (the internet is lacking)....Walter Handley. I'll look in Wikipedia commons for picture, but have not mastered image upload protocols here yet.Seasalt 10:40, 10 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Only problem was birthdate. You have 28 November, I had 2 November. My internet sources are all obviously derived from same place as they share paragraphs. I put 2 because had a reference for it, but if you've got a reliable source for 28, certainly change it to that. Feel free to change anything. Haven't looked for pic yet.Seasalt 12:17, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The source for Bob McIntyre birthdate is the book "Bob McIntyre - The Flying Scotsman" by Mick Walker. I will like to check entry, but I do not like to use just one source and this is the delay in finishing Bob McIntyre. The book also describes Bob McIntyre's National Service which he was the dispatch rider as he was the only one that could ride a motor-cycle!!!!

In respect to photos I had noticed that a picture was "borrowed" for the entry for Harold Daniels. I also find including photos difficult to upload.

For Walter Handley I found the following entry at http://www.kolumbus.fi/leif.snellman/dh.htm ;-

Walter Leslie Handley (GB) 5 Apr 1902 - 15 Nov 1941 Walter Handley was born in Aston, Birmingham 1902. He was a well-known motor cyclist who won the Senior Manx TT in 1930. Handley’s Corner on the Manx TT circuit was named after him. He was also involved with car racing, driving Rileys. Entered the 1934 & 1935 Mannin Beg. He had a bad crash at hhe 1936 Empire Trophy after taking over Dixon’s third placed Riley. He was killed, serving with the Air Transport Auxiliary, Kirkbampton, Cumberland 1941.

Walter Handley's death is sometimes quoted as 1940. (Agljones 10:47, 11 December 2006 (UTC))

I found a bit more about WH doing Rex-Acme.There is information there I could use for Handley. I think one of my reference sites had more McIntyre death details...something like rained before 500 cc race, puddle on corner that was not there for earlier 250 race, fights way to front after bad start only to hit puddle, aquaplane off line, hit pothole, catapult into something solid.(tree?) It was an account given by a friend of his. Seasalt 11:03, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I have checked the Mick Walker book and it gives Bob McIntyre birth as the 28th November. It also gives a similar account to the accident at Oulton Park in 1962.

I am not too sure, but I understand that Walter Handley was a victim of a "friendly-fire" incident that occurred over the River Thames east of London, perhaps in the area of Canvey Island, Isle of Dogs or Isle of Sheppey.

Also, at the first Isle of Man TT Race in 1922, Walter Handley on his first ever lap of the Mountain Course turned right and commenced to ride the course in the wrong direction and was stopped by a Flag Marshall at Governor's Bridge. During practice for the 1935 TT Races, Walter Handley badly injured his thumb while replacing a primary drive chain when he stopped in Sulby Village.

(Agljones 12:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC))

I love that going the wrong way bit. At least he was luckier then than the rider that missed his turn and was killed on a newly erected barrier one year. I'd like to include it if I could have a source reference to keep the critics at bay? The Mick Walker book, do you have the page number where McIntyre's birthdate is mentioned? I think I can get the full title and ISBN number off the net to complete the reference. Mannin Beg and Mannin Moar(?), are they car races? Seasalt 13:50, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The details of the Mick Walker book are as follows;-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bob-Mcintyre-Flying-Mick-Walker/dp/1859835007/sr=1-1/qid=1165931870/ref=sr_1_1/203-7414946-3527934?ie=UTF8&s=books

The quote for Walter Handley going the wrong way in 1922 can be found in the ACU 1968(?) Isle of Man TT Race Guide and is the only written quote that I have seen for this.

The details for the events surrounding Walter Handley and the fatal aircraft crash may be found in the Keig Collection of TT photographs, but I am not sure what volume number.

The Mannin Beg and Mannin Moar Car races on the Isle of Man replaced the Tourist Trophy Car Races. The car races became the British Empire Trophy after the war. Various circuits where used including part of the TT Course and part of the Clypse Course and became known as the Willaston Curcuit. Former winners of the Mannin Beg and Mannin Moar Car race series include Dick Seaman and Prince Bira.

(Agljones 14:09, 12 December 2006 (UTC))

I got all that for the book, but the actual page number where the item of information appears is part of a full citation, hopefully as given for my Tragatsch references. Rex-Acme (The internet references seem less rigorous.) Hope its not tiresome of me to ask which page of the book has McIntyre's birthdate? There are internet pages with the names and cars for races there (Mannin Beg and Moar), including Wal Handley for a couple of years. Not much to explain it tho, just results. Thank you for explaining. Having a try at FN motorcycles - Seasalt 11:38, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

The reference to Bob McIntyre birthdate was from Mick Walkers book and I picked-up a copy to read in W.H.Smith Bookshop just to check details. I will have to go back to W.H.Smith to look for page number. The book also gives the address and I presume it is from a copy of a birth certificate?

Walter Handley
The Keig Collection Vol 1 on page 36 describes Walter Handley as the motor-cycle messenger for the OK-Supreme factory and on his first lap of the TT Course made the wrong turn and travelled the wrong direction. I think the ACU TT Race Guide for 1968 gives a better account of this. It is a understandable mistake to make as I think the race paddock was moved as Douglas Corporation started building the TT Grandstand in the early 1920's and the area would have been all large fields and not heavily built-on as it is today.

The Mac McDiarmid book the 'Magic of the TT' makes a reference to the aircraft crash in which Walter Handley was killed. The aircraft involved was a Bell P-39 Airacobra which crashed on take-off. The book does not give a reference to the source of the information. The P-39 Airacobra is a very unsually type of aircraft for a member of the Air Transport Auxiliary to be flying. I found information that 601 Squadron where flying the P-39 Airacobra from Duxford before converting to the Supermarine Spitfire in 1942.

The only other source that I can give is a newspaper article about 10 years ago in which a TT rider that was part of Air Transport Auxiliary was killed in aircraft over Canvey Island that was shot down in a "friendly-fire" incident and I thought that this refered to Walter Handley. I also found information that Walter Rusk a team-mate of Jimmie Guthrie at Norton died in 1940 of pneumonia, but another source states that he was killed in a RAF flying accident. I can only concluded that perhaps the Mac McDiarmid book did not perhaps check their sources correctly in respect to Walter Handley crash. Also, I am not too sure what the original source of the story of Walter Handley taking the wrong-turn in 1922.

In the 1930's the Mannin Car Races where held the week before practice started for the TT Races. There was a number of circuits used including part of Douglas Promenade. After the war the races became the British Empire Trophy and in 1953 a driver was killed after hitting a bank and thrown out of a his car. The next driver through the corner ran-over the injured driver and was killed. This incident occurred about a 7-10 days after Les Graham was killed during the 1953 Senior TT Race. After adverse newspaper comment in the UK daily newspapers to these events a number of changes where made to the TT course and the first use of the Clypse Course.

(Agljones 12:37, 14 December 2006 (UTC))


 * AGL, you are a minefield of information. I have added the Walter Handley info, (Bell P-39 Airacobra, wrong way and thumb) and the reference for Kieg is of epic length by itself.

Seasalt 11:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I see what you mean about the P39, A new that year American naturally aspirated, hence low altitude (<17000feet) ground attack aircraft, used mainly by the Russians. Re-named P-400 for RAF. To be a P39c had to be one of first three? Needed long take-off area, underperformed, diverted to Russia from December 1941. "The Flying Cannon". Could evade Spitfires and Me109s at low altitude, but could not compete at high altitude.

Timeline: Ordered sight unseen. Eagerly anticipated as result of optimistic prototype specs, the first of three P39C arrived at RAF Colerne from US on July 3, 1941, other two next day (For testing) First British-purchased Airacobras began arriving at Colerne before the end of July. By the end of September, eleven machines had been received. No. 601 "County of London" Squadron was selected to be the first Fighter Command squadron to equip with the Airacobra. No. 601 Squadron pilots found numerous flaws and weaknesses. The Air Fighting Development Unit received a British Airacobra I on July 30. They subjected it to tests and completed their report on September 22. By the end of September, No. 601 Squadron had received permission to take its Airacobras into action. On October 9, two Airacobras took off from RAF Manston and flew across the Channel. On this raid, they shot up an enemy trawler near Gravelines. The next day two Airacobras visited the same area, but found no targets. On October 11, two aircraft flew to Gravelines and Calais and hit some enemy barges and then three Airacobras flew to Ostend, but no targets were found. After these four missions, the RAF Airacobras were taken off operations because of difficulties encountered with the compass. The compass was too close to the guns in the nose, and when the guns were fired, the compass got thrown out of alignment. Deviations of anything from 7 degrees to 165 degrees were recorded. Without a reliable compass, pilots tend to get themselves lost. In December of 1941, the Airacobra was officially withdrawn from operational service with the RAF. A decision was made to divert the bulk of the British Airacobra contract to Russia. They were re-crated and shipped to the Soviet Union during 1942. In all, the Soviet Union received 212 of the British Airacobras (some of them shipped direct from the USA), but 49 more were lost at sea en route. No 601 Squadron relinquished its 13 Airacobras in March of 1942 in favor of Spitfires. One Airacobra was fitted with an arrester hook and was used for deck landing trials at the RAE at Farnborough. See: Airacobra I for RAF, P-400

Air Transport Auxiliary: A far-sighted man, Gerald d'Erlanger, got permission to start an organisation to ferry passengers and aircraft around the country. Thus began the ATA, who eventually moved 309011 aircraft of 140 different types. They cleared the factories and took the aircraft to maintenance units and other squadrons of the RAF and Fleet Air Arm. Britain needed pilots to ferry new aircraft to service airfields and military bases across the country, from both manufacturer's airfields and maintenance units. It was not deemed viable to use fully-trained RAF pilots to ferry the aircraft, so the next best option was reluctantly accepted, this was to take on civilians who held a pilots licence. According to official records it was thought that it would take six hundred and twenty four civilians to replace twelve RAF pilots! For this target to be reached, it was finally agreed that the civilian pilots had to be recruited, rather than called up, to ensure the quality of the flying skills of the applicants and allow a rank structure to be based on experience.

Handley volunteered to shift aircraft round the country, must have held a pilot's licence, so was Kirkbampton a short runway? He wouldn't have necessarily ever flown one before. Seasalt 12:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The reference for Bob McIntyre and his date of birth can be found on page 8 of the Mick Walker book.

The reference to Walter Handley and his first practice lap on the TT Course in 1922 can be found on page 36 of the book "TT Topics and Tales" by David Wright. The quote appears from Walter Handley himself and I presume it may have been from an autobiography, however, no source is quoted. The same incident is quoted in the "ACU TT World Championship Road Races 1968 Official Programme and Guide" on page 25. The same page also quotes that Wal Handley received a letter of appreciation from the ACU after an incident at Greeba Castle during the 1929 Senior TT Race.

I have not been able to find the newspaper article that relates to a TT Rider that was killed in an aircraft accident during the war. However, I did find a recently published book about wartime airfields in the Northern England and Scotland. The entry for Kirkbride airfield (Ordnance Survey Map NY 227 558 GB Grid) near Kirkbampton, explains that a Capt W.L.Handley was killed flying a RAF Airacobra I due to a loss of control in November 1941. It did not say if this was on take-off or on final approach to Kirkbride or if Kirkbride was his intended destination. The Isle of Man Examiner for November 1941 does make a brief mention of Wal Handleys accident but no cause of the crash.

The book "The Magic of the TT. A century of racing over the Mountain" by Mac McDiarmid on page 133 describes the accident as "while serving as a ferry pilot in the Second World War when his Bell Airacobra crashed just after take-off near Carlisle." It is interesting that the same book gives a list of great TT Races and includes the 1939 Lightweight TT win by Ted Mellors in this list.

(Agljones 13:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC))

An Airacobra 1 in November 1941....Airacobra was off operations from October, withdrawn from service December.

Title: "The Keig Collection: six hundred photographs from the Manx House of Keig of T.T. riders and their machines from 1911 to 1939", vol 1, pp36, Author: Keig, Stanley Robertson, Published: Bruce Main-Smith & Co 1975, ISBN 0904365050    Is this previous page 36 source still valid? Seasalt 14:44, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The Keig Collection is the correct title and there are 5 volumes in the series.

The details of the Wal Handley aircraft crash can be found in the Kirkbride section on pp143 of "Cumbria Airfields in the Second World War including The Isle of Man" by Martin Chorlton. The aircraft crash is descibed as a loss of control, 2 miles east of RAF Kirkbride near Fingland.

(Agljones 12:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC))

"The entry for Kirkbride airfield (Ordnance Survey Map NY 227 558 GB Grid) near Kirkbampton, explains that a Capt W.L.Handley was killed flying a RAF Airacobra I due to a loss of control in November 1941." (taken from above)Did that quote come from: Title: "Cumbria Airfields in the Second World War including The Isle of Man", Author: Martin Chorlton, Publisher: Countryside Books (25 Oct 2006), pp143, ISBN 1-85306-983-3, or another book on airfields? (If its same, is it the same page?) That sentence covers a lot. You've certainly done some very focussed research on this. I've included "The aircraft crash is descibed as a loss of control, 2 miles east of RAF Kirkbride near Fingland." under that reference, and paired with that afore-mentioned quote, gives a good explanation.Seasalt 12:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC) 1955 sidecar passengers...could find nothing on netSeasalt 13:19, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

The description of loss of control is a quote from the book about Cumbria Airfields. I added the Ordnance Survey reference for Kirkbride airfield as there is another station at RAF Kingstown a few miles from Kirkbride village. I have not been able to find the newspaper article that I have refered to in respect to a wartime aircraft crash regarding a former TT rider. The Commonwealth War Graves Commission Website gives a reference to W.L.Handley and also there is an entry for W.F.Rusk that was killed in an aircraft accident during 1940. I presume that this is Walter Rusk, but another source gave cause of death as pneumonia.

I do no think it is possible to complete this part of Wal Handley's entry in full until more details can be found about the cause of the aircraft accident and also the circumstances regarding Walter Rusk. A website for aircraft crashes may give the correct information or perhaps contacting the MOD directly?

The letter of appreciation that was sent to Walter Handley in 1929, I think is reference to the crash at Greeba Castle which involved, Walter Handley, Jimmy Simpson, Jack Amlot and Doug Lamb who died later of his injuries.

I have also had problems with sidecar passengers in results and it is difficult to trace the correct passengers for the 1954 Sidecar TT Race. I would like to expand the narrative for the 1954 Junior TT Race, however I have mixed-up the lap-times in my notes and will have to check them. I have been rather side-tracked by the Handley aircraft crash. One last detail is the 1931 Junior TT results as the winner Percy Hunt is given a time of 3:34.21, 2nd place Jimmie Guthrie a time of 3:27.26 and 3rd place Ernie Nott a time of 3:33.01. This would indicate that Guthrie was the winner rather than Percy Hunt. However, the average race speed appears to be correct?

(Agljones 10:41, 20 December 2006 (UTC))

We probably have one of the more comprehensive internet articles on him already. Dont get sidetracked if it is only on account of my queries. I will check the '31 Junior info.Seasalt 11:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Though I can find no alternate source for times, the average speed would indicate a lap time of about 3:33:54 Seasalt 12:23, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Motorcycling Wikiproject
Welcome to the Motorcycling WikiProject. Hopefully you have a good time, start many new articles and can contribute lots to the existing ones as we need that. Cheers ww2censor 17:16, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Scottish Flag
Its use has been queried on the Talk:Bob McIntyre page. When I started here, "be bold" they said, but there are a multitude of conventions to be learnt that inhibit that, to slowly shape us into automatic wikiformatting editors. I think i'm about to discover the Wikipedia Flag Act.Seasalt 14:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I had the idea that eventually someone might insist on the British flag for Northern Ireland, England, Scotland, etc. Not yet. Seasalt 13:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

IoM tt site
Times out if I try to connect here in Australia, on all local computers I have tried, not just mine... can you still load IoMtt.com? I have not been able to get the site up since December 29. Seasalt 13:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

There is no local Isle of Man access problem over the last two weeks with http://www.iomtt.com or http://www.ttwebsite.com. They are routed through Manx Telecom and they have been having problems with upgrading their internet and e-mail systems over the last year. Perhaps you should try after 1800 hours GMT. (Agljones 13:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC))

That is 4:00 am here. Ok, in the morning. Seasalt 13:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Could not get through until installed broadband today. The dial-up would time out. In now. Seasalt 04:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

1957 Isle of Man TT
There was no production racing in 1957, but why was that? - Seasalt 11:56, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The 1957 Isle of Man TT Races was Golden Jubilee event and featured an 8 Lap Senior event. The reason for dropping clubman event may have been due to fall in entries and the widening gap between production motor-cycles and grand prix machines. Or it may have been due to congested practice and race timetable inluding practice on Clypse Course and reduction in practice time. It must have been complicated to close the road for practice on the Clypse Course and then have an practice session on the Mountain Course. The clubman race was also held on the last Saturday of practice week reducing overall practice time. This is Saturday practice is now traditionally the last practice session for the TT Races and is also the reserve practice day if practice time is reduced due to bad weather. (Agljones 12:32, 15 January 2007 (UTC))

Now there is a Rod Coleman (motorcycle racer), but have no birthdate yet. - Seasalt 10:19, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Rod Coleman
The TT Special 1951 (page 9 dated 4th June 1951) describes Rod Coleman or R.W.Coleman as a "motor-cycle dealer from Wanganui" and is aged 25 years. Also, Rod Coleman is the first official entrant from the New Zealand Auto-Cycle Union and first entered the Isle of Man TT Races in 1949 but did not race due to a crash in practice (TT Special 1953 - page 9 dated 8th June 1953). In an article in respect to New Zealand TT riders in the publication Island Racer 2004 - Page 68, Rod Coleman is decribed as the son of "Canonball Coleman" also from Wanganui who first raced at the 1930 Isle of Man TT but retired from the 1930 Junior and Senior Races. The first New Zealand competitor is also described as Alan Woodman who entered the 1910 Isle of Man TT Races, but lost a leg in a practice crash.


 * The only worry I have with this info is the "verifiability". Through my Ducati writing I have found that magazines without issn numbers are not considered "verifiable", and could be challenged. The standard for web sources is much less stringent. My Ducati material has not been challenged, but could be. I will use the information provided in the hope that it is not challenged, but know its possible. I get a bit upset when things I have edited or kept up-to-date get axed by enthusiastic rule studiers, like the "Major and Notable British Marques" info-box. It got changed into a list of manufacturers, because there were no criteria for "Major and Notable". Sometimes I think I am unsuited for encyclopedic rules.Seasalt 14:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

H G Tyrell Smith
Some further information about Henry Tyrell Smith;-

First motor-cycle an ex War Department Douglas and finished 2nd at the 1926 Leinster 200.

1924-1929 studied for Engineering Degree at Trinity College Dublin.

1936-1939 Experimental Department at Excelsior motor-cycles.

1939-1942 Bristol Aeroplane Co working on single cylinder test stands.

1942-1945 Direct Officer Commission for REME. Workshop Office for Guards Armoured Division during D-Day landings and Normandy. In 1945 promoted to Major as a Workshop Control Officer in an engine repair shop at Volkswagen in Wolfsburg. After being war worked in Experimental Department for Triumph Motor-Cycles.

Race Wins;-

1931

350cc Germany Grand Prix

250cc Dutch Grand Prix

1932

350cc Ulster Grand Prix - Rudge 77.89 mph

350cc Brooklands Grand Prix

1933

500cc Leinster 200

1934

250cc German Grand Prix

250cc Belgium Grand Prix

1936

250cc German Grand Prix

350cc Dublin 100

1937

350cc Dublin 100

250cc Leinster 200

1938

250cc North West 200

350cc Dublin 100

(TT Special 1953 - page 22 dated 12th June 1953)

Wal Handley
I have included further information about aircrash in 1941 to his biography and added information to his debut at the 1922 Isle of Man TT Races.

Race wins at Ulster Grand Prix for Wal Handley

1922 250cc Ok-Supreme 52.39mph

1923 250cc Rex-Acme 55.95

1933 350cc Velocette 83.63 mph

1935 350cc Velocette 86.65 mph


 * It all adds, and so do the info-boxes. Thanks for all the info you dig up. Seasalt 14:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Scottish Flag
I am not quite sure what the problem with the Scottish Flag. I have noticed that with the Scottish Formula 1 driver, David Coulthard the United Kingdom flag is used.


 * There is no problem yet, but i suspect one day, someone will insist on British flag alone for British riders. I hope I am wrong, for an unencyclopedic reason, personal preference. Even if they officially ride for Britain, it is interesting which part of the Union they come from.Seasalt 13:58, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Identifying Royal Enfield
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/405552795_60165a3eda_b.jpg

Myredroom 17:46, 28 February 2007 (UTC) was wondering if i could identify the Enfield in the photo. Do you know anything about these models? My answer was -


 * 1938 single port J model 500cc is my best guess. There was also a "twin port" J2 model, with two exhaust ports splitting from the single exhaust valve, giving a twin pipe exhaust. Mainly sidecar machine. The J model was also sold after ww2, but with telescopic forks. Your picture has the pre-war girder forks. Good for 75mph with stock low gearing. I am going on the straight back rear stand, as i cannot be entirely certain from engine appearance alone that it is not a 350 variant. Seasalt 11:05, 2 March 2007 (UTC)Seasalt 10:54, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Canadian flag
I apologize, I didn't see your edit regarding the Canadian flag. I thought you might have mis-edited. The Flag of Canada page shows its first appearance as February 1965. Of course wikipedia might be mistaken :) Orsoni 14:24, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Snaefell
Thanks for your rewrite on Snaefell mountain course. The entry was in desperate need of it, I'm just completely ignorant to the topic. The article is looking worlds better now! skyskraper 09:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Snaefell mountain course
If you have finished with the rewrite, it may be time to remove the rewrite tag. What do you think? BTW, I modded the template with the show/hide navigation style. Hope you agree. Cheers ww2censor 16:40, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the improvements to TT Course names template. The Snaefell mountain course needed a re-write as some of postings where plagarised directly from the internet and book "The Magic of The TT. A Century of Racing over The Mountain" by Mac McDiarmid. The re-write style is based on the Formula 1 racing circuit Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps although I have not been able to find a map of the TT Course suitable to be displayed. I will try to add more information to the history of the Snaefell mountain course and also increase the number of TT course names.

The template for TT Riders has also attracted some comment. It was created after Wikipedia indicated that some entries for the TT Races where "orphaned" or did not have sufficient links. It was meant for TT Riders which do not appear extensively in the TT results and are significant to the history of the TT races such as Archie Birkin, Victor Surridge, Frederick James Walker and Inge Stoll. I think it may be appropriate that a large number of pre-war TT riders may be included in this list, but not to be used extensively to list all post-war TT Races world championship competitors for the period 1947-1976. However, I have included Santiago Herrero in this list which you may find acceptable. {Agljones 12:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)}
 * I wonder why you removed a book reference from this article which reduces the useful information rather than enhance it. Seems like a strange edit to me. Cheers ww2censor 13:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Removing book reference was a general tidy-up before start of TT 2007. Also, the entry was the "The Magic of The TT. A Century of Racing over The Mountain" by Mac McDiarmid many entries are plagarised directly into TT wikipedia articles including this Mountain Course entry. Also this Mac McDiarmid book has many incorrect information and spelling mistakes which has been plagarised into other TT books and magazines which is unhelpful. Perhaps a book reference list and bibliography at the end of the main Isle of Man TT Races entry????

Also, I have now finished a basic entry for Jimmie Guthrie but perhaps needs some North West 200 and Ulster Grand Prix results added. I have more information about Stanley Woods for the 1923 and 1924 Isle of Man TT Races as well. I wanted to complete Jimmie Guthrie entry before moving-on to other enteries and I have some information now for Phillip McCallan and Bruce Anstey. I would have liked to have finished all the TT enteries before TT 2007 but this seems not be the case as it is alot of work. Sometimes the results need to be checked and the only way of doing this is the archive at the National Manx Museum and it has been closed three times in the last few months for refurbishment including a new TT Gallery which opens on the 26 May. Finally, it seems that the BBC Isle of Man site has in the last couple of days a link to the Isle of Man TT Races wikipedia site. {Agljones 11:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)}

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File:022seniortt.jpg listed for deletion
An image or media file that you uploaded or altered, File:022seniortt.jpg, has been listed at Files for deletion. Please see the discussion to see why this is (you may have to search for the title of the image to find its entry), if you are interested in it not being deleted.  Ja Ga  talk 00:30, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

B class criteria
To improve this article Kerrowmoar, here are some guidelines for the B class criteria for road articles. SriMesh | talk  23:52, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

NowCommons: File:022seniortt.jpg
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Image permission problem with Image:1935 205 jpg.ashx.jpg
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M/c template
Why title this "Irish Republic Racing Circuits" when an island template would not be much larger and avoid any naming problems? There is no such place as "Irish Republic", the current name you use? BTW, where are we going to get the info for these circuits, some of which I attended in the 1960s & 70s. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 16:28, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Manx Electric Railway Diagram
Thanks for the update of this, but for some reason you've deleted the stopping places that were all on the list, meaning that the following/preceding station box for each respective article is now inconsistent. I can understnad your logic to an extent but some considerable time was spent adding these to make it complete. Please could you add these back as they represent a complete list of the railway's stopping places and/or crossings and each one has its own article in existence. Cheers Gordonastill (talk) 09:00, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Isle of Man TT
Regarding your response, is that in article? If not, do you mind if I post it verbatim into the article? Seems very useful! --AW (talk) 07:06, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

The description of the name of the Isle of Man Tourist Trophy is mentioned in the opening paragraphs of the article. The choice of a trophy over a Cup is more relevant to the description of the Montague Trophy now known as the RAC Tourist Trophy. The actual Isle of Man Tourist Trophy is influenced by the stylised version of Olympic God Hermes by Giovanni Da Bologna which is a feature of the Montague Trophy. The Isle of Man Tourist Trophy is a much larger silver trophy than the gold Montague Trophy. There are a series of trophies presented to the winners of the various events including, Junior TT, Lightweight TT and Lightweight TT races and feature the silver figurine by Giovanni Da Bologna astride a winged wheel. The original Isle of Man Tourist Trophy (the Marquis de Mouzilly St. Mars Trophy) is now presented annually to the winner of the Isle of Man Senior TT Motor-Cycle Race. Any postings to the article require a verifiable source rather than verbatim and the description of the Montague Trophy is found in the book TT Pioneers - Early Car Racing in the Isle of Man by Robert Kelly. Perhaps a separate article about the actual race trophies and the replicas presented to race competitors may be more appropriate. Agljones (talk) 10:01, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Ian Lougher
iomtt.com does have Lougher with 10 wins. What sources do you have for your 9 Wins? --Dangermouse600 (talk) 18:16, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The 2009 Ultra-Lightweight TT and Lightweight TT were held over 2 legs and on a points scoring system. It is correct that Ian Lougher won both legs of the Lightweight TT and leg 1 of the Ultra-Lightweight race. The final position was decided on a point scoring system to decided the winner of the trophies. The leg 2 win of the Ultra-Lightweight by Chris Palmer is not considered to be winner of the 2009 Ultra-Lightweight TT race as the this was won by Ian Lougher over the 2 legs on the points scoring system. The details on iomtt.com are not always correct or contain the current information. It is correct that Ian Lougher has 10 race wins and under the points scoring scheme has 9 Isle of Man TT wins and Chris Palmer 3 TT wins. The scoring system has seemed to been forgotten about and was not a great success. The 2010 Isle of Man TT programme list the 2 legs of both Ultra-Lightweight TT and Lightweight TT and it does not give a complete list of TT winners and the number of TT wins. I download the championship table for the 2009 Ultra-Lightweight TT and Lightweight TT but did not include it in the Wikipedia results for the 2009 Isle of Man TT as the table was over complicated. Agljones (talk) 19:41, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I see your point. (That comes when stupid regulation-changes are made) You are right, when Lougher is credited with 10 wins, Palmer should get his win from the second Ultra-Lightweigt-Race too. Otherwise one could count none of these wins, because they were reached on Billown Circuit and not on the Real Mountain Circuit. But I think there should be some official counting which could be cited by Wikipedia. And where to get this if not from iomtt.com? And in the 2010 TT we do also have a points-system, the Joey Dunlop-Trophy. But a race win is a race win, isn`t it. By the way: On his homepage Lougher speaks of 10 wins, too. --Dangermouse600 (talk) 22:22, 8 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I have emailed iomtt.com and asked them about the points scoring system for the 2009 Ultra-Lightweight and Lightweight Races. The details on iomtt.com are not always correct and are often incomplete.  I was listening to the radio commentary during the delay to the start of 2010 Superbike Race and the radio commentator read the list of TT winners with 10 wins or more and did not include Ian Lougher in the list.  For example, if a race is red-flagged and then restarted and a competitor 'wins' both parts it is consider as one race win rather than two wins.  I do not think it is possible that iomtt.com will reply this week and it may be the case of asking the ACU for a clarification.  I have now found the points table for the 2009 Ultra-Lightweight and Lightweight Races and I may include them on Wikipedia.  Agljones (talk) 09:21, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The Billown TT Races 2009 Official Programme on page 2 there is a statement from the Clerk of the Course that says;- "This year the Ultra-Lightweight and Lightweight races take on a new format with each race being decided over 2 eight-lap legs and the result being declared using the BSB points scoring system." Agljones (talk) 22:28, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I understand what you want to say. But because of this stupid regularies it is now POV how much wins Lougher has. And as Wikipedia does no Original Research we have to cite something. Iomtt.com, Loughers Homepage, some minutes ago on ManxRadio they also spoke of 10 Wins. No one beside you counts 9 Wins. --Dangermouse600 (talk) 14:24, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

I have not had a reply to my email from iomtt.com about the 2009 Billown TT. It may be next week before I get a reply or more likely that I will have resend the email. The statement from the Clerk of the Course is clear in how each race is decided over 2 legs and the correct research has been cited. If you listen carefully to Manx Radio they have been using Wikipedia for information ! In respect to the Isle of Man TT Races or the Manx Grand Prix a high degree of care is required compared to some other articles and often extra research and cross checking information is required. I usually quote only newspaper sources or books or magazines. I rarely use internet sites to cite information and particularly with the Isle of Man TT races I do not indulge in this practice. If you read the Island Racer 2009 Magazine carefully it quotes both 7 and 8 wins for Ian Lougher before the start of the 2009 Isle of Man TT Races. I think if you check I have not re-edited the total number of wins for Ian Lougher on the main Isle of Man TT Races page and I have not asked for arbitration with Wikipedia for a dispute over the issue. I am still waiting for a reply from iomtt.com over a difficult regulation created by the ACU. Agljones (talk) 21:11, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

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Nomination for deletion of Template:Dundrod Circuit
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2011 Isle of Man TT Race results
I've been working on this new results box look and wanted to ask before adding it up on the 2011 IoM page, if you cool with it. check it out. Marty Rockatansky (talk) 08:57, 5 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It is a nice result box and it must have taken sometime to complete. I have thought for a couple of years of changing the format of the Isle of Man TT Races result box.  The problem is that the Isle of Man TT is a time-trial and not an race like a Moto GP event.  I find the information in the result box a little confusing and difficult to locate the average race speed and time which is on the far right.  I would remove all the race advertising including the names of the teams which is the correct Wikipdeia policy that I have followed for the last 5 years as the Isle of Man TT Races is not a Moto GP event or Formula 1 race. The results box needs to easy to read for people not familiar with the Isle of Man TT Races.  This morning I was considering adding a time difference column to the Superbike practice times, although the official results do not show this.  Last year for the 2010 Isle of Man TT Races I was considering creating a separate page for each of the practice sessions showing all the times and a seperate page for the results showing the full final classification and the lap by lap times. If you like to use this info box for the race results and I think I would stop contributing to Wikipedia as I would find it too time consuming and difficult to follow this format that you propose.  I also update the Manx Grand Prix, North West 200 and Ulster Grand Prix and work on the previous historic Isle of Man TT Race results and would find the changes too difficult.  I was going to add the Superstock and Sidecar practice times before the next Isle of Man TT Races on Monday and many other details to the 2011 Isle of Man TT page.  Please let me know what you decided as I will have to explain the situation to some of the other contributors as there was work in progress on a new Isle of Man TT Races page.  Good Luck !  Agljones (talk) 16:14, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thats why I asked you, before doing any structural changes like that. You guys have been contributing for TT and other race results here far longer than me. It wasn't my intention to start changing the formats but just to add some information for the pre existing tables. i got a same problem with results they have at iomtt site. Theres no time difference at the end of the race, no race starting lists or any notes on DNS or RET's. For example some high profile non starters like Ryan Farguahar or a 1st lap retirement of Michael Rutter at Cruickshanks. So let me work on the table, make it simpler, remove the entrant column and each individual lap times, too many numbers i agree with you.cheers.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 00:26, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I have been completing the Isle of Man TT results by myself for nearly 5 years. There was a contributer from New Zealand that completed some of the earlier results from the 1920's and 1930's and then stopped in 2006 and made no further entries. The Isle of Man TT Races is a time trial and a time difference at the end of the race is not appropriate and perhaps misleading.  This issue was raised in 2008 with Bruce Anstey in the 2008 Supersport TT Race 2 when he crossed the finish-line in 3d place and declared the winner on corrected time.  There are many problems with Official results and you will find many spelling mistakes, incorrect listings of machine and a competitor declared on the final classification are missed-off on the lap-by-lap chart. The full 2010 Sidecar TT Race 1 and the 2010 Senior TT race results are also incorrect and with many mistakes. The results are in mph only and there are no metric conversions as the Isle of Man is not part of the European Community and there is no legal obligation to provided this type of conversion.  The Radio TT coverage confirmed that Ryan Farquhar was a non-starter and the newcommer Simon Andrews (34) stopped at the Quarterbridge on lap 1.  I was working on the 2011 TT Championship results and the I was going to use a Moto GP table which would have eventually shown Michael Rutter's DNF during the Superbike TT Race.  I have taken many notes from the Radio TT coverage this year and this cannot be used in Wikipedia as it original research. Agljones (talk) 07:17, 6 June 2011 (UTC)
 * In your opinion what is the most comprehensive source of TT results, from the past years as well as recent? I collect and keep results myself. If you don't mind, there's some info i'm missing from Superbike TT race: I have 65 starters, not including riders #38?, #65? - were they DNS or retirements. From Supersport TT - RIP Derek Brien. - missing #36, #48, #50 were they considered non starters form the race or just missing numbers.- Was #53 Brian McCormack non starter on the three lap race or a 1st lap retirement. Your expertise is much appreciated. ThxMarty Rockatansky (talk) 22:58, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

The best source for TT results is the iomtt.com website. The results for the early years (1907-1925) are incomplete at the iomtt.com website and have to be checked with newspaper and magazine sources. The post-war results can be found in the TT editions of the Motor Cycle & The Motor Cyclist magazine which can be found on Ebay. The best way to research TT results is to cross check various newspaper and magazine articles and the internet.
 * Thats pretty much what I've been doing. Always find something new..

In the 2011 Superbike TT race, #65 Fabrice Miguet was listed as non-starter before the race. During lap 1 of the Superbike TT there was two retirements including #34 Simon Andrews and another unidentified competitor. In the Supersport TT Race 1 there was a changes of numbers including Cameron Donald moving to #4, Rob Barber moving from #36 to #27 and number #50 James Ford is a non-starter. In the Official Programme for the Supersport TT Race there is no listing for competitor #48 and the entry is blank. There was a number of non-starters and change of competitors for the 2011 Superstock TT Races. I will try to find out if #53 Brian McCormack was a non-starter for Supersport TT Race. Agljones (talk) 19:01, 7 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The Superbike TT race i have now is fairly complete. Race numbers from 1-69.


 * DNS #4 Ian Hutchinson
 * DNS #7 Ryan Farquhar
 * DNS #38 David Hewson
 * DNS #65 Fabrice Miquet

65 starters and according to iomtt 60 riders completed 1 lap. First lap retirements:
 * 1) 14 Michael Rutter at Cruikshanks.
 * 2) 21 Davy Morgan at Quarter Bridge.
 * 3) 24 Jeremy Toye at Black Dub.
 * 4) 34 Simon Andrews at Quarter Bridge.
 * 5) 51 Brian McCormack at ? - according to his blog "on the first section".

Would be good to cross reference other races as well with you if you don't mind.cheersMarty Rockatansky (talk) 20:54, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

There was delayed start for Supersport TT Race on Wednesday 8th June 2011 with the race starting at 12:40 pm. The non-starters for the race were #7, #16, #36, #37, #44, #50 and #52.

The changes to number included;-
 * 1) 4 Cameron Donald
 * 2) 14 Ben Wylie
 * 3) 20 Jim Hodson
 * 4) 27 Rob Barber
 * 5) 31 Gary Carswell
 * 6) 39 Rob Wilson
 * 7) 40 Brandon Cretu
 * 8) 41 Bill Callister
 * 9) 42 Dan Hegerty
 * 10) 43 Dean Harrison
 * 11) 53 Brian McCormack
 * 12) 56 Herve Gantner
 * 13) 57 Alan Brew
 * 14) 59 Davy Morgan

Further non-starters not arriving at the startline include;-
 * 1) 13 Adrian Archibald
 * 2) 21 Dan Stewart
 * 3) 53 Brian McCormack
 * 4) 57 Alan Brew
 * 5) 59 Davy Morgan

The leaders at the end of lap 1 at the TT Grandstand;

Retiring at the TT Grandstand at the end of lap was #11 Gary Johnson with an electrical fault. On lap 2, #2 Keith Amor crashed on the Union Mills Railway bridge and #15 Mark Parrett crashed at Laurel Bank sustaining an ankle injury. After a rain shower in the Union Mills area of the Snaefell Mountain Course and further rain at Glen Helen the race was red-flagged and later abandoned. Agljones (talk) 06:59, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Just a quick note
Greetings; I know I have been on your case regarding the dates thing, and I apologise if I have been very snippy with some of the edit summaries. All I wanted was for all the articles to conform with the MoS for dates, and may have done so in an inappropriate manner and did not mean to cause offence. So yeah, just wanted to clear up that, as you certainly deserve a lot of respect for doing them results year-on-year! Cs-wolves (talk)  22:59, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Regarding File:Isle of Man TT.svg
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File permission problem with File:Pre-TT Classic IMG 00158.jpg
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Isle of Man TT edits
Hi,

Please don't put spoilers in your edit summary. I'd been trying to avoid the results until I'd seen the race on TV but your edit popped up on my watchlist revealing Bruce Anstey to be the winner. You can easily say that you added the winner without revealing who the winner was. Many thanks. Readro (talk) 21:15, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

I have been trying to add a photo of the winner of each day in an attempt to make Wikipedia more relevant. The Bruce Anstey photo was added while the Supersport press conference was still in progress and was possibly one of the first images on the internet of the winner. Perhaps you would like remove the page of the watchlist. The weather forecast is not too good the third day of racing. Agljones (talk) 21:32, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I have nothing against you updating the articles, however your edit summary was "update Bruce Anstey winner 2012 Supersport Race 1". This was completely unnecessary. You could have said "update winner of 2012 supersport race 1". You didn't need to mention Anstey's name. Readro (talk) 21:41, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I do not usually update the winners table for the Isle of Man TT Races and clarity as matter of courtesy is sometimes required to explain which item has been edited in a very long article. I would like to suggest that in future when a fatal accident occurs during racing at the Isle of Man TT that you do not update the List of Snaefell Mountain Course fatal accidents for at least 24 hours after the accident.  Also, please do not use language in the edit summary such as "Sadly we have...." as the comments are unnecessary.  Again, I suggest that as a temporary measure remove the problem pages from your watch-list.  Agljones (talk) 03:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

File permission problem with File:Southern poster.jpg
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Censorship!
Ok, the thing about wikipedia editors was a bit silly, but why did you remove the Saturday 18th section in its entirety? The practice session was cancelled because of insufficient marshalls on the mountain. Egg  Centri  c  20:39, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

There was an editing conflict which occurred when I add a new entry including a photo. Please read Wikipedia notes on editing as information has to be verifiable from an external source. Please also note about matching the style of the current article and Wikipedia is not a forum for making whimsical comments. (see note about Isle of Man TT edits) Agljones (talk) 20:52, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It's a work in progress. There'll be a citation in time. Judging by the image you uploaded you were there, as was I - we both know therefore what happened! The lack of cite doesn't really matter for the time being... Egg   Centri  c  21:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Please note Wikipedia policy on editing as information has to be verifiable from an external source. Again, lease also note about matching the style of the current article and Wikipedia is not a forum for making whimsical comments. The reasons for the cancellation of practice were also due to the condition of the road at Ballacraine after the relaid road surface after the recent flooding has started to break-up. Also, water running across the road below the Gooseneck and problems with drainage from 26th Milestone to the Mountain Mile. Agljones (talk) 21:37, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair does, any chance you can email me your number so I know what's really going on next time?  - all they told us buggers standing around on the mountain was it was cause of inadequete staffing there!  Egg   Centri  c  23:16, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a personal blog. Please add information of encyclopedic value and appropriate sources. This article does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. Agljones (talk) 12:28, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Online citations are NOT required
That's nonsense. I'm putting it back. If you want to remove it again, take it to the article talk page. Egg  Centri  c  21:25, 23 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Citations are an important part of any Wikipedia article, serving to identify the reliable sources on which the article is based. In most cases, citations for specific pieces of information contained in an article are given in the form of footnotes, though they can also appear within the body of an article. Citations indicated by a superscript number or other means in a line of text are called inline citations.


 * Wikipedia's Verifiability policy requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations, anywhere in article space. However, editors are advised to provide citations for all material added to Wikipedia; any detail risks being unexpectedly challenged or even eventually removed. If you wish to employ the ignore rule then you have to give a reason on the appropriate talk page and the ignore rule is not a trump card.  If you wish, you can take the matter to an Administrator or to arbitration.  Agljones (talk) 16:43, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

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Nomination of Verandah, Isle of Man for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Verandah, Isle of Man is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Windy Corner for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Windy Corner is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Windy Corner until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:51, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Nomination to keep the article as it has encyclopaedic value. The Snaefell Mountain Course is unusual in its length at 37.73 miles. Articles describing certain parts of the course have value. The Windy Corner is a well known part of the A18 Sneafell Mountain Road is an important part of the circuit. There has been discussions by other contributors on Isle of Man TT notice boards about how the history of the Isle of Man TT and Manx Grand Prix should be developed. Merging into a general description of the course or the history of the Isle of Man TT would be over-long and unhelpful. Many of the associated articles about the Isle of Man TT and the Snaefell Mountain Course have suffered badly from multiple edits from different contributors. I have worked for nearly 10 years to try and standardised some of the problems. However, it has been a difficult task. Agljones 11:21, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

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Talk:Windy Corner, Isle of Man
Hi Agljones. You participated in Articles for deletion/Windy Corner, which was closed as "no consensus". The AfD was taken to Deletion review/Log/2014 November 27 where opinions are split between "endorse" and "overturn". I have started an RfC at Talk:Windy Corner, Isle of Man. Cunard (talk) 01:20, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Your sig
Hello, I'm Pigsonthewing. I wanted to let you know that your signature ("sig") might cause problems for some readers. This is because it includes no link at all to your user space; such links are required.. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page, or take a look at our guidelines and policy on customising signatures. Thank you. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:13, 27 December 2014 (UTC) More evidence of a Wikipedia troll and a self-indulgent sub-editing policy (oops OR !!!! )(Sorry !). Agljones 22:00, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Nomination of Birkin's Bend for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Birkin's Bend is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Birkin's Bend until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:33, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Nomination of Ballagarey Corner, Isle of Man for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Ballagarey Corner, Isle of Man is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Ballagarey Corner, Isle of Man until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:39, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Nomination of Appledene for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Appledene is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Appledene until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Andy Mabbett ( Pigsonthewing ); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

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Copyright issues on photos
Hi, Agljones, you have suggested at Talk:List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course that you think there are copyright issues with four photos used in the Bray Hill article. (" The gallery section of the Bray Hill article has 5 photographs. There are copyright issues with four of the five photographs."). Please report that and address that. However, please stop mentioning that at Talk:List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course, as it has nothing to do with that list-article. Long rambling discussions are driving other editors crazy, and maybe will begin to drive me crazy too.

I agree that copyright violations are serious, should be address[ed]. I don't happen to want to deal with this particular issue for these photos this time, it is not specifically my responsibility and I just don't want to take it on.

For you to deal with it, I suggest you go to wp:copyvios and see its section "Dealing with copyright violations". If you have questions, please get help from someone else. One way you can get help is to go to the wp:TEAHOUSE where you can ask general questions and there are nice people who help. -- do ncr  am  19:19, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The issue of copyright is a serious problem. The WP:Manual of Style says that images should face 'inwards' towards text, avoid stacking of images and also avoid photographs with ambiguous graphic design elements. Do not resort to WP:OWN in articles and talk page or personalised comments about style.  Also, I would not consider either editing or creating pages that I do not have sufficient background knowledge or access to primary and secondary sources.  agljones(talk)16:06, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I agree copyright requirements should be complied with. I removed your tagging of photos at Bray Hill article and at another one, because the photos appear to me to be okay to use, and also because the copypaste template you applied to them appears to be for text that is copied, not for photos.  Oh, I'm sorry, I see now that the Copyright problems guideline I pointed you to is about text (and clearly so), rather than about photos.  If you continue to believe there are copyright violations for photos, please find out how/where to report the suspected problems properly and make your case somewhere that they are copyvios.
 * About the rest of what you say, i don't understand some of it and I don't know if I'd agre or not with your views. But the comments are not about copyright status of photos.  Sincerely, -- do  ncr  am  00:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi, I think you misunderstand copyright for Creative Commons license, as for this pic that you challenge at the Signpost Corner article. It is available for use under Creative Commons.  Further i see you added a lot more copypaste notices and I will undo them all, because a) it appears you misunderstand what license(s) are okay to use, allowing upload to Commons, and b) the copypaste template is not for photos.  Again I'm sorry that I might have steered you wrong.  But the good news is that maybe your perceptions of copyright violations were incorrect, and maybe all the Isle of Man photos in Wikipedia are fine.   I hope you're glad to learn of that possibility.  Cheers, -- do  ncr  am  01:52, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Again I agree copyright matters are important, and I would like for you to feel right about what photos are being used. Here at right is "File:IOM TT signpostcorner.jpg", one that you objected to by copypaste note at the named corners list-article...pointing to the photo being available at http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/31450.  But when I browse at that location, i see it is available under a Creative Commons license that allows it to be copied and used elsewhere, with restriction that authorship must be kept with the photo.  I think that was done in the copy uploaded to Wikimedia Commons and then used in English Wikipedia.  Perhaps the place to get more confirmation about this is over in Wikimedia commons.  I'll try finding out more.  Let me know if you find out where/how to get review of photos done. -- do  ncr  am  18:00, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Just to record, the 3 other photos questioned by you at the list-article, were noted by you to be available online at:
 * 
 * 
 * 
 * which we could review also. -- do ncr  am  18:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Following up, i think i see how to open a discussion about copyright status of photos over at Commons.Wikimedia.org, which is where most or all of these photos were uploaded to, and are located. Checking copyright status of photos there is done by Commons administrators and other editors there. Their info about proper licensing is at Commons licensing, and I see it has a section on "Common licenses" including the Creative Commons license.  If you read up about licensing and still think that any of these photos are copyvios, I'd be happy to discuss.  I'd like to understand what your reasoning is.  Then I propose that you or we can pick just one to get experts' opinion about, first, whichever one seems among the most egregios violations in your view.  It would make sense to open a Commons request for deletion there about the one photo, and see how that goes.  I'll watch here, but please let me know if/when you open any such discussion over at Commons.  sincerely, -- do  ncr  am  20:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Indicating edits as "minor" when they're not
Hi Agljones -- I had reason to check your contributions just now, looking for edits involving photos, and I am surprised to see many/most of your edits are tagged "minor". That's not right to use in most of these edits, certainly not when you are marking a suspected copyright violation. Minor edits are meant for only truly minor things. See Help:Minor edit.

Maybe you don't understand that edits marked "minor" are hidden from normal viewing in watchlists of editors, depending on how their personal preferences are set. So for example it meant that I didn't notice some edits of yours at the time. Also probably others would have noticed the copyvio notices, but missed them because of the "minor" tagging. In general, if an editor goes on using "minor" tagging, it can appear that they are trying to escape scrutiny. I don't expect you were trying to get away with something, however.

So, anyhow, please don't do that. -- do ncr  am  02:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Hi again. Your 4 most recent edits are all marked "minor" but should not be.  Are you deliberately ticking off the "This is a minor edit" box every time, or is it somehow set as a default for you?  I don't see an option for that within User:Preferences, however.  Would you please acknowledge this and respond.  This is more serious than you might think:  I believe users have been blocked permanently from Wikipedia for persisting in not complying with this requirement. -- do  ncr  am  22:28, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * It was set accidentally as a default for this page. In talk pages you have been repeatedly asked not to make personal comments and as with other editors not to resort to "Wikipedia Trolling" or "Wikipedia Fundamentalism" when it suits your purpose. Do not make veiled comments without a formal warning from Wikipedia. I guess that you do not have much experience of the management of staff or of human resource issues in a formal tribunal arena.agljones(talk) 22:49, 27 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Thanks for responding, and I gather you will have changed that default setting now, so it shouldn't be a problem going forward. (Where/how are page-specific settings changeable?  Again I don't see it in user preferences.  Just curious, would like to know.)
 * About trolling, I don't think I've ever been accused of that, and don't see how I can be construed to be trolling in any way. On the other hand, I am concerned whether my trying to take you seriously and work with you, despite a lot of problems in communication, is something like feeding a troll.
 * About warning, I did mean for my messages to you here to be an explicit warning, very much in an official-type way. If the behaviour continued, I would be justified in opening an official proceeding to have others review your actions (potentially resulting in your being blocked or banned).  But to do that, I would have to be able to document that you were warned and yet persisted.  These messages would serve for that purpose.  They were the "formal warning from Wikipedia".  There's no other more official way of warning you that needs to be given.  I've not been intending to make veiled threats or just hint around about this or anything else, I want to be clear and explicit as possible.
 * You may be partly uncomfortable with my giving feedback to you, but in my opinion I think you should be appreciative too. I have really been trying to take you seriously and to guide your participation into being more successful and productive.  I do appreciate your having a lot of knowledge and your being willing to share that in Wikipedia.  And I hope you can become more successful in converting that into lasting mainspace contributions in Wikipedia. -- do  ncr  am  16:47, 28 March 2015 (UTC)


 * I have looked at the editing logs and there has been appears to have been a change over somewhere around 2007/2008. I had not realised it was so long ago. I have mentioned previously that I have been preoccupied with Isle of Man TT results and they are very difficult to edit compared with other articles and sometimes minor changes are more appropriate. Other editors cannot be bothered with the results and there has been some technical issues which the minor edit setting may be seen as appropriate.  Around 2007/2008 there has been a change and I guess it was due to the accident involving spectators at the 26th Milestone and this has been difficult to deal with at the time. Normally, I take long Wiki breaks during the winter. Also, I have not edited some articles since 2007/2008 until recently with the AfD nominations and some articles have been left default from this time for over 6 years(I do not like to over-write other editors work despite the recent personal comments).
 * I work for an international company and making "veiled threats" is seen as very unprofessional and unacceptable. There is also a "walk and talk" culture with the company which you do not seem to understand from the presumptive comments you have made.  The underlying issue here is the lack of formal processes with Wikipedia and would not be acceptable with a major international company.  Also, unacceptable with major international companies is poor written English, "stonewalling" issues, lack of prompt action, making and repeating personal comments, the use of expletives in any circumstances (including asterisks) and adopting unusual administrative practices that are difficult to follow.  For major international companies there is a high standard of politeness, courtesy and curt comments, boorishness and internet troll practices are not acceptable.   There is a point to all of these despite what you may see as verbiage.  The first practice session for the 2015 Isle of Man TT starts on the 30th May 2015 and you will find the internet traffic for these pages on Wikipedia increases by a factor of 20 or 30.  This is due to the success of some of the articles despite what you may see as at times as ridiculous.  Many of these issues need to be sorted by this date in full.  Otherwise, you will attract some unfavourable comments from the world-wide motor-cycle community that are not interested in Wikipedia etiquette and this is line that you have already crossed with the "Whipple" article and insisting on listing fatal accidents and commemorative memorials.  This is when you will find the more controversial elements of the Isle of Man TT Races will be deleted, hidden or redirected by individuals that do not bother to log into Wikipedia. agljones(talk)22:47, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

thanks & apology
Thank you for adding an infobox and otherwise improving the 11th Milestone, Isle of Man article and others. I also appreciate you editing the "List of named corners" article, and I apologize/regret undoing all three of your recent edits there. I do disagree and think any one could be reverted reasonably, especially with explanation given at Talk (please do see Talk there), but I shouldn't have undone them all, it wasn't really necessary and I don't really mind any of those changes. I really do hope you'll make corrections and other edits building the article, and I'm afraid that's not the message sent by my edits. By the way, I generally won't revert someone else's edit twice as if they repeat it I tend to figure they really think the change is an improvement, or important. And I won't undo if you redo any or all of these three (though I would still probably want to further discuss them on Talk). sincerely, -- do ncr  am  08:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

specific suggestions on coordinates
Thanks for identifying that coordinates for 2 named corners were off, in the List of named corners article. These I do understand as specific suggestions that are actionable, thanks! I added "corrections/additions needed" as a new item #12 in the "Actionable Suggestions" and listed those plus one more. I already fixed the Windy Corner one. Could you possibly please obtain correct coordinates for the other two coordinates items there?

You may have your own way to get coordinates already, but i just found this short, silent demo in Youtube of how to get coordinates using Google maps, and its approach seems to work better than how I've gotten coordinates previously. So I am writing this out in order to record it for myself too (will save a copy in my own userspace). Briefly: "Unnamed Rd Isle of Man 54.261931, -4.463263
 * bring up Google maps
 * enter a nearby address or other location just to quickly get to a view of the general area (can enter just "Isle of Man" or a more specific location)
 * move around as needed to bring your desired location into clear view and zoom in on it
 * position cursor exactly where you want, and right-click (brings up small drop-down menu)
 * select "What's here" from drop-down menu
 * See that coordinates are now displayed within a new box (at upper left for me), showing something like
 * Note that now any new left-click at another point revises that, so you can refine the point selected easily
 * Copy-paste those coordinates from that box.
 * Edit the coordinates into list-article in format like 54.26193°N, -4.46326°W (note that -.463263 E is entered as .463263 W )

I do appreciate your having great knowledge of the actual locations of these corners, and your being able to confirm or point out error in coordinates is helpful already. Further, it would be great if you could make the coordinates corrections/additions needed, too. Thanks, -- do ncr  am  15:50, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Two things
Editor has been asked not to contact about this issue. Editors role in the article is not technical good enough for Wikipedia.

Hi Agljones, I hope you're well. I have two ideas/suggestions: Cheers, -- do ncr  am  06:46, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
 * How about use the wp:Third opinion service to ask for an uninvolved editor to give an opinion about our different views. At the List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course, I've edited there to a point that I think is pretty well cleaned up, though it still could/should be improved by normal editing processes over time, I figure. (And note it uses the mileage-from-start numbers that you created, thanks, which help a lot).  I'd like you take a good look at it; perhaps it's closer to meeting your approval than you think.  I take it you'd prefer the version that I copied to: Talk:List of named corners of the Snaefell Mountain Course/Alternative version.  I've never used the 3rd Opinion service.  To me from their info, it looks like the perfect service to help in our situation.  What do you think?
 * I browsed around looking for any list of historic sites for the Isle of Man. If there's an official registry (and there is), then it could help on some articles like Ginger Hall, Isle of Man, if they're listed.  The Ginger Mall topic would not be judged notable by some editors, per its article.  But buildings or other items listed on a historic registry that has good standards and good documentation, are almost always accepted as notable.  (In wikipedia I have mostly worked on historics sites, by the way.) At the Isle of Man list of its "Registered Buildings", I don't see Ginger Hall, but I notice Kate's Cottage.  Maybe you can see other buildings along the Snaeffels Mountain Course there.  Would you like to work together on making a Registered Buildings of the Isle of Man list-article?  (I would start it at Draft:Registered Buildings of the Isle of Man.)  And you or anyone then could pretty freely create separate articles, linked, for any Registered Buildings [of those that have extensive documentation linked in the government's Registered Building list] that you're especially interested in.  It would go a lot easier than TT-related articles, because no one will question notability and because there's good documentation available about every one. [available for many of them.]  I hope/expect proceeding along this avenue would be fun and productive.  What do you think?
 * I amended my comment above by strikeout and [insertions]. Some, but not all, Registered Buildings have extensive documentation available. -- do  ncr  am  21:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)


 * It is not a case of the use of the 3rd Opinion service as it is not applicable. --agljones


 * Not applicable to what? 3rd Person Opinion (3PO) could be applied to any one of many writing/editing/content differences we have:  what info should be included in a row?  should available-but-imperfect photos be used?  is use of that 1979 American writer's quote appropriate or not?  Etc. -- do  ncr  am  04:06, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


 * DO NOT VANDALISE ARTICLES.
 * Do not change articles written in British-English.
 * Do not use links and articles from commercial websites.
 * Do not use plagiarism.
 * Do not change the accepted official course names.
 * Do not create a list of vertically stacked articles with details that differ from the original articles.
 * Do not list fatal accidents to competitors. WP:NOT
 * Do not list road-side memorials and commemorative plaques. WP:NOT
 * Do not use poor written English and grammar.
 * Do not use very badly written and very inaccurate articles which do not have a neutral point of view.
 * Do not try to extend the list of road and geographically features into other technical area.
 * Do not use generic, dated, badly written, nonsensical, syndicated articles for notability and to cover the period 1911-2014.
 * Do not convert Isle of Man TT network of motor-cycle articles to US English styles and Americanise content.
 * Conclusion. Overall, your technical knowledge of the subject is not good enough to continue with the article and you have no access to the main primary or secondary sources. There are issues of insufficient neutral point of view, writing sections and paragraphs using using a single internet source which are biased, inaccurate and often ridiculous technical points which are subjected to plagiarism and do reach the correct standards for verifiability and notability required for Wikipedia which is unacceptable.  The use of very poor written English is unacceptable. Also unacceptable is repeatedly trying to cross into other articles and other areas covered by the Isle of Man TT network of articles.  The descriptions section do not reach Wikipedia standards, contradict the already established articles.  Unacceptable are the commercial advertisements or commercial information and written in different styles from an informal blog or travelogue or a series of commercial advertorials which has stopped any further development of the Isle of Man TT article network.

agljones(talk)09:56, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
 * The Ginger Hall article was written carefully to address area of notability. There is a difference between historic buildings and historic buildings register.  By your perceived comments about Ginger Hall then more of 95 percent do not have notability (Why do you want an article about the Jurby airfield bomb-store ?).
 * Is the Jurby airfield bomb-store on the list of Registered Buildings? I assume so.  But no, I don't want a separate article on it, as I have no stake.  I'd like for it to have an item in a list-article, but I'd be fine for that not to have a red-link suggesting that an article should be created.  But since it's registered, there's probably an official nomination document describing why it is important and should be registered.  And that would be a strong, somewhat extensive, extensively-reviewed, acceptable source towards establishing Wikipedia notability, if I or anyone did want to write about it extensively enough to require an article to be split out.
 * For you, if you're interested in taking forward the topic of any one of the Registered Buildings, you can do so with some confidence it won't be disputed like named corner articles are. -- do ncr  am  04:06, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Oops, I see actually that there's not an official nomination document linked for the Jurby airfield bomb-store one, and similarly for many others including Kate's Cottage. But there are fairly extensive documents linked for many, such as for Orrisdale House, where this PDF file of documentation is linked.  Note it includes history info, a section on its architecture, and ends with a bibliography listing its sources. With that Orrisdale House documentation in hand, I'm confident that the Orrisdale House topic is notable and a Wikipedia article on it would not be challenged at all and would survive any AFD.  Same is true for many though not all of the Registered Buildings. -- do  ncr  am  21:16, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Jurby bomb store is no 239. The way that you approach articles need to be re-evaluated as the Ginger Hall a well known part of the Snaefell Mountain Course is described as not been seen as notable and Orrisdale House a private residence in a very remote rural area with highly restricted access as a "topic is notable" (????). The Jurby bomb store is potentially the most ugliest, unnecessary, least notable architectural listing on Wikipedia for 2015. If you cannot deal with this type of listing than perhaps you will be unable to deal with corner list article. agljones(talk)21:34, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment & replies:
 * 1. I don't agree that my intro was bad in any serious way. I do appreciate that your recent series of edits just removed/reduced that, without mixing small changes in the table.  So it is clear in the record which is "my version" vs. "your version", and it's possible to present that to others, say.  I'm happy to leave your preferred version of intro in place for awhile, and maybe I'll copy mine to a Talk subpage for later consideration.
 * 2. Are you interested/willing to use the 3rd opinion service to begin to address some of our differences? You didn't answer on that.  I'd like to make an initial neutrally-worded request for 3rd opinion there, per their instructions, if you don't mind.  To address some portion, probably not all, of our differences.  It would just get an uninvolved person's opinion, it would not bind either of us to accept it, though we should read & intend to comply with terms there.  Like I think we'd both need to try be open to listen and to seriously consider changing positions.  The 3PO option is content-focused, is not about complaining about each others behavior.  Although I disagree with you on many content-presentation things and other matters, I do fundamentally respect you and I'd rather achieve some improved understanding on both our parts, with others' help, than have either of us force/impose resolution by use of more negative processes (like achieving 6-month block, or achieving ban from topic area, etc.).
 * 3. In your edit summaries and on Talk pages, you have accused me of plagiarizing, or said whichever passage is plagiarized. That is a strong term.  And I disagree.  What you observe, I think, is that I wrote similarly to, or outright cut-and-pasted, material from named corner articles.  And that's what you object to, right?  Well, it's not wrong.  It's not copyright violation because we & everyone else are free to use Wikipedia-written text elsewhere (and I believe you didn't assert copyvios, though some mix that up with plagiarism).  It is also not plagiarism, and is widely-used, accepted practice, to built list-articles by summarizing and/or selecting interesting bits from linked item articles.  The list-article achieves new, different things by arraying the items' information.  E.g. our list-article's coordinates and GeoGroup link to Bing maps, enables reader to see, to zoom in, to relate corners to each other.  I figured out a couple myself, but I got most of the coordinates from the separate articles.  Likewise about text, achieving something good by putting together.  And, please note, the quick first text passages that were similar/same, are being edited, refined and moving away.
 * But the big thing is that no one is claiming undue credit. What is plagiarism?  A good definition I know is that plagiarism is presentation of work in a way gives less credit to sources than is appropriate, than is due.  So we can outright copy passages from a source, as long as we put quotes around them & give footnote that clearly gives credit for content ideas and also for the specific wording, to the original author.  It would be plagiarism not to.  And when we claim more credit by nature of publication, like when sometimes commencement speakers put forth Winston Churchill's or some others' words without mentioning them, or when an academic implicitly claims tge wording is part of his/her contribution in an article submitted to an academic journal to be published as their work, that is plagiarism.  Note textbooks blandly state general views, recent developments, everything about their topics without being riddled with footnotes, and perhaps including general references at the end of each chapter or the book.  It's understood that's what textbooks do, they're not claiming originality, so low credit claimed corresponds okay to poor/low crediting of original sources.  And no one is deceived and no plagiarism.  And, if we claim no credit, it can't be plagiarism.
 * In Wikipedia our words are free to be edited, copied, used by others. It's courteous, but not required, to try to give some credit by edit summaries like "begin article with text copied from Wikipedia article X" (so credit X's authors).  I try to do that, myself.  But, the big idea is that we are one author, we are writing encyclopedia in one voice.  Article Y's text means that Wikipedia, as a whole, is saying that text.  And the list-article is not plagiarized:  there are no claims of credit by one part of Wikipedia without giving credit to another part.  We are all just one, and words over somewhere else are still our own words and we are free to use them elsewhere.
 * Whew, that is long, sorry. But, I request that you stop/drop the accusations of plagiarism.  You can read up at wp:plagiarism which I helped bring to a higher level long ago.  We can use up a 3rd opinion request on the matter, or otherwise seek guidance.  But per the version of wp:plagiarism that i recall, it is very serious to charge plagiarism.  And I'd be justified in opening wp:ANI proceeding against you if you persist after warning/discussion, and there would be good chance of result that you are blocked from editing for some period, or the like.  I am NOT going to do that, this is NOT a threat, veiled or otherwise.  I do not take it personally;  I believe you are misinformed but sincere.  But I request you stop saying it, and accept a working assumption for yourself that it is not plagiarism, though you are not completely sure deep down.  And let us go on.  Or, do your homework: do more reading and/or consult others and come to an understanding that it's not plagiarism (or don't reach that conclusion).  And/or, with or without doing homework, take it forward in appropriate channels.  I think it's a content issue not a behavior one, so 3rd person opinion is available as a good option.  I don't mind at all having the question discussed with reference to my edits being a concern in a forum like that.  But I don't want for you to continue to feel the shock or dismay or disgust or similar emotions that you might feel now.  So I'd like some progress towards resolution by your doing homework or your using 3PO or another forum.  And, I don't want emotions or views around plagiarism concerns to bloat the talk pages, and to clog your communications of other matters, and to slow other progress.
 * sincerely, -- do ncr  am  04:06, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

agljones(talk)09:05, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
 * WARNING You have been repeatedly been asked not to move or edits WP:TPO. Do not again, move or break-up comments in talk-pages or transfer to other pages/sections etc.
 * WARNING Do not make any further personal comments or make any type of veiled treats. Do not use US-slang or hide expletives behind asterisks (eg **********).

Reply:
 * 1). Do not use the talk-pages to repeatedly STONEWALL ISSUES and DO NOT MAKE ANY TYPE OF VEILED THREATS.  The article is a list of public road and geographical/road features.  It is not an article about the Isle of Man TT Races.  Do not make personal comments about  "my version" vs. "your version". Every article requires an Executive Summary and also an in-line citation(s) for notability, verifiability and to maintain a neutral point of view.  The citation is from an internet article which is titled "Man vs. Isle: Get as close as you'll ever come to the world's most deadly motorcycle road race."  This is a "biased citation from the executive summary with issues of plagiarism, notability and verifiability" (issues principally directed at the citation).  Please observe a neutral point of view as the executive summary does not provide an alternative point of view. For example, other sources list the Isle of Man TT Races as only the second most dangerous motor-sport event.  However, the article title directly mentions "motorcycle race."  Is this the most deadly motor-cycle race ?  The number of miles covered by competitors for the 2014 Senior Isle of Man TT Races was 12,601.82 miles and no fatal accidents. The number of miles covered by the FIM World Motor-Cycle Championship MotoGp class for all races in the season including practice is appropriately 9,000 miles.  The total for mileage completed during the 2014 Isle of Man TT for all races including practice is approximately over 100,000 miles and with  two fatal accidents.  This total mileage when compared to the MotoGp class is equivalent to the last 10-12 seasons and there has been three fatal accidents to competitors (one competitor in Moto2 class) and the total mileage for the Isle of Man TT over the same period would be approximately in access of one million miles.  Summary, there is fatal accident in the MotoGp class every 60,000 miles compared to the Isle of Man TT of at least 100,000 miles.  (This does not include the Manx Grand Prix and the comparison can be made to  other motor-cycle classes and citations can be found for this point.) Other issues with this citation.
 * Practice and races for Isle of Man TT and Manx Grand Prix would constitute 4 weeks making it 48 weeks not 50 weeks. Other motor-sport events held in the town of Ramsey.
 * Competitors travel up May Hill and not "going down." The speed for May Hill is 95 mph and not 140 mph.
 * Racing motor-cycles have silenced exhausts limited to about 105 dB. A fighter jet leaving an aircraft carrier such as a Boeing F-18 Hornet would register over 140 dB.
 * Conor Cummins is 200cm tall which is 6 feet 5 inches tall.
 * There has been previously five other Isle of Man born winners of an Isle of Man TT Race.
 * The rerun 2010 Senior Isle of Man TT Race and Ian Hutchinson was leading Conor Cummins by 3.24 seconds at the official timing point at Ramsey on lap 2.
 * The family home is close to the course but would not rattle his window.
 * Travelling five miles in 160 seconds gives an average speed of 112 mph. The average speed for the sector is closer to 140 mph.
 * Where is the precipice ? Is this the Verandah ?  Only the coast of England can be seen clearly from this point ?
 * No citation for Barry Sheen quote and his father a respected Isle of Man TT competitor. Biased quotation as Barry Sheen had no objections to other competitors racing at the Isle of Man TT and not made clear that he is a former FIM World Motor-Cycle Champion.  It was just his personal objections.
 * Isle of Man TT is raced by professionals, semi-professionals and amateurs.
 * Manx Grand Prix held in August which is the season of summer and not "fall."
 * The Verandah falls from spot height 417m to countour 226m which is 209 metres which is over 600 feet and sheep are found grazing all over the Isle of Man irrespective of gradient.
 * Top speed recorded on Sulby Straight of 206 mph and Superbikes 190 mph.
 * Corners on course 220.
 * Current total of Isle of Man TT fatalities is 136 (not including Manx Grand Prix).
 * Glen Helen is situated in a steep sided narrow ravine and not subjected to cross-winds like the Windy Corner.
 * Isle of Man competitor Nick Crowe won the 2005 Isle of Man TT Sidecar Race 1
 * David Jefferies Number 124. The marshal posts are not issued with red flags.  The marshal post did not have an oil flag but only cautionary yellow flag. The next day was a Friday and course closed for practice.  Memorial lap not held until 2004.
 * Dobbs no 129, Loict no 130.
 * Snaefell 2,026 feet. It is difficult to see Verandah from the Summit.
 * Conor Cummins crash caused by a gust of wind (micro burst) slid along the road over the top of car lay-by and down a grass embankment. The race was not stopped.  Marshals were initially unable to reach him because they are forbidden to cross the road at this point. Marshals arrived from a nearby flag-station.  The section of embankment is not to steep to walk down and Conor Cummins did not travel 900 feet.  The helicopter crew landed to give assistance.
 * TT Grandstand is seven miles down the course.
 * Approximately 1-2 seconds to travel from site of the fatal accident to Gilbero Parlotti to accident site and not number 99.
 * North Loop of Nürburgring is called the Nordschleife.
 * Phil Read returned to Isle of Man TT in 1978.
 * There were no black lines on the road only purple paint to show where accident happened. There are no reflective markers at this point as they are removed for racing.
 * The accident to Guy Martin did not occur the lap before the crash to Conor Cummins. The race was stopped after the Guy Martin crash and re-run as a second race when the accident to Conor Cummins occurred.
 * Official release and premier of 3D moive did not occur until April 2011 and not in June 2011.
 * Conclusion. The citation is clearly inaccurate, biased and faux account of the Isle of Man TT Races.  The citation can not support notability as is not at least a single, non-partisan, neutral source as required by Wikipedia. The second paragraph has no in-line citations and the third paragraph has only one citations which as previously described as being dated and generic to 1979, inaccurate, misleading and issues of a neutral point of view.  There is also the issue of misunderstanding the term "lean angles" with "lean-off" as used by motor-cycle competitors.  Overall, the poor use of English and grammar is not acceptable for Wikipedia. (Plagiarism see section 3).


 * 2). My reply to Third opinion was listed 5th April 2015.  Do not move or break-up comments in talk-pages WP:TPO.   The process is described by Wikipedia as "neither mandatory nor binding". The third opinion process also "requires observance of good faith and civility from both editors during the discussion in order to be successful." Do not make any further personal comments or make any type of veiled treats. Do not use US-slang or hide expletives behind asterisks (eg **********). Do not try involve another editor / "proxy" / "other" (the Wikipedia term is "sock-puppet" and not mine and refer the mater to Wikipedia if you do not like the description).  A six month block is not appropriate as the development of Isle of Man TT motor-cycle network has stopped completely (potentially for years) and there are issues of the list descriptions differing from the main articles, other issues of changing official course names, notability, verifiability and allegedly of plagiarism.
 * 3) From a professional point of view, I am more familiar with the issue of plagiarism more than you appreciate and been dealing with this type of issue for nearly 30 years. Again, do not make type of personal comment for any reason and do not STONEWALL ISSUES.
 * The issue of Plagiarism as I mentioned previously can be divided into plagiarise and article (ie direct copying without giving without "due acknowledgement") or plagiarism without giving sufficient citations or insufficient citations.


 * Following on from section 1) and as Wikipedia states "You can avoid inadvertent plagiarism by remembering these rules of thumb:" "INCITE Cite a source in the form of an inline citation after the sentence or paragraph in question." The first, second and third paragraphs do not follow this and with the first paragraph there are no citations for the 20 mph speed limit, "Isle of Man authorities were accommodating" (this needs to be explained and this is actually an issue for the main Isle of Man TT article), no speed limit (confusion with the UK national speed limit which does not apply in the Isle of Man) and worlds longest road racing course (Targa Florio and Mille Milla are longer road courses).


 * This continues with the second paragraph and no inline citations and states;- " The course is an attraction for amateur riders, too, as they may ride the same course as race competitors, including its no-speed-limit mountain portion." (course is made-up of open public roads, there is a 40 mph speed limit at the Windy Corner and a one-way system with speed limits and traffic lights operates during the Isle of Man TT) and in the third paragraph "Technological developments of the racing motorcycles are the primary reasons for speed increasing. But the mitigation of road conditions that were initially quite poor, and road changes that in recent years have widened or straightened roadways, eliminating or smoothing some corners, have contributed as well" (road conditions in UK at the time were also poor and the article is another example of being plagiarised from Isle of Man TT Wikipedia articles). There is a citation in the middle of the section but it is not clear what it supports (it was actually the job of the mountain shepherds to open and close the gates) and again "INCITE" and also as "Wikipedia states with the second rule with "INTEXT Add in-text attribution when you copy or closely paraphrase another author's words or flow of thought."  The quoted citation in the middle of the sentence cannot cover all the issues of technology, changes in road surface surfaces and improvements in corners.  At this point there is an issue of plagiarism due combining too many factors.


 * Both INCITE and INTEXT both apply to the first part of the third paragraph with the Whipple quotation and also as Wikipedia again states in the third rule "INTEGRITY Maintain text-source integrity: place your inline citations so that it is clear which source supports which point, or use citation bundling and explain in the footnote." The section "their leaning and possible use of kneepads are interesting, and the possibility of accidents is greater" is almost meaningless written English and the three rules of INCITE, INTEXT and INTEGRITY  have not been used (motor-cycle racers used "knee-sliders" a type of plastic pad to prevent accidents by using their knees to push the motor-cycle back into an upright position.  It would suggest that the John McGuinness quotation about the Windy Corner has been used at this point without a proper citation.)  A further point is with the Windy Corner description and INTEXT and INTEGRITY rule have not been followed as citation must be provided "when you copy or closely paraphrase another author's words or flow of thought."  Also, there is INTEGRITY and " maintain text-source integrity: place your inline citations so that it is clear which source supports which point, or use citation bundling and explain in the footnote."  This has not been followed for "Windy Corner" description as there is no INTEGRITY as the area is open moorland and describes the general area. (I now have citations after research to support this).  There is also an issue of verifiability/plagiarism issue for Wikipedia and the wind does not "whistle up your trouser leg" every time a motor-cycle passes, if you actually stand at the corner( this is an issue of integrity or plagiarism without giving sufficient citations or insufficient citations.)


 * A final point in respect to plagiarism that it is stated by Wikipedia that "....non-creative lists of information, such as a list of song titles on an album, or actors appearing in a film. If creativity has gone into producing a list by selecting which facts are included, or in which order they are listed, then reproducing the list without attributing it to its source may constitute plagiarism."  Similar types of lists or corners which you have created  "without attributing it to its source" can be found extensively in the TT Special newspapers in period 1930-1961, Isle of Man TT race programmes, Isle of Man newspapers and other printed sources.

agljones(talk)13:40, 6 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Out of the above, what leaps out for me is your referring to your April 5 statement about using 3PO. Which I believe refers to this diff where in first sentence you say 3PO is not relevant to something.  Tell me if that's not what you mean.  Well, 3PO appears relevant to try to settle, nicely, any one of many disagreements we have.  Neither of us have used it, so it makes sense that we could disagree even about that.  To move forward, I will open a 3PO request about some point of disagreement in the table, in a week or two when I will have time, and we'll both see and experience how 3PO works.  3PO is cheap in terms of time investment required, so it's no big deal to try it.


 * A large portion appears to be your responding critically to statements in the 1979 Whipple article, although they're not used at all in the list-article, so I don't see relevance. I understood already that you'd prefer for the list-article not to quote the 1979 Whipple article about wind at Windy Corner and about style and/or leaning of racers going through corners.  You understand I like those quotes.  Those two points of our disagreement are noted in items for Windy Corner and Style.


 * Otherwise I'll try to make use of some bits within the rest, where I can discern what in the list-article you may be referring to. You'd achieve more actual communication per thousand words if you could be more specific (by use of diffs or use of links to specific sections in the Talk page or links to specific rows in the list-article), because I sometimes fail to understand what you're writing about.  Thanks. -- do  ncr  am

If you read the reply I have clarified the point in respect to the 3rd party option in section 2) as follows;- “ My reply to Third opinion was listed 5th April 2015. Do not move or break-up comments in talk-pages WP:TPO. The process is described by Wikipedia as "neither mandatory nor binding". The third opinion process also "requires observance of good faith and civility from both editors during the discussion in order to be successful." Summary; The previous version of the list article did not address the issue of notability with at least a single, non-partisan, neutral citation. The citation quoted was inaccurate, biased  and a “faux” account of the Isle of Man TT Races. Provide 1). a quotation for notability in the executive summary from a non-race source (ie a non-Isle of Man TT or non-Manx Grand Prix Source) and 2) a source that provides an alternative point of view (not the Whipple quotation) also 3) provided a citation for the “non-creative lists of information” for as Wikipedia states “….If creativity has gone into producing a list by selecting which facts are included, or in which order they are listed. then reproducing the list without attributing it to its source may constitute plagiarism ” Address issues of plagiarism using Wikipedia rules of INCITE, INTEXT and INTEGERITY for the executive summary and any further paragraphs.

Address issues of plagiarism using Wikipedia rules of INCITE, INTEXT and INTEGERITY for the description sections for articles including the Windy Corner section and ALL OTHER sections. In particular, follow the Wikipedia rule of “INTEGRITY Maintain text-source integrity: place your inline citations so that it is clear which source supports which point, or use citation bundling and explain in the footnote."

Do not create alternative versions of pre-existing articles, do not change official course names (eg it is Kate’s Cottage not “Kate’s House”), do not change British-English style and do not Americanise articles(ie do not refer to the Manx Gaelic language as “Native” or use the description of Ireland and Great Britain). Do not overlap articles/sections/descriptions/executive summary with the pre-existing articles within the Isle of Man TT network of motor-cycle articles. (ie technology, racing styles, safety issues, other courses). Do not include directly or indirectly, commercial sources, commercial links, advertising etc. Do not write in a commercial travel-log style or as commercial advertorial.

Do not use the 1979 ‘Whipple’ article as you have not understood the issues of “lean angles” which differ from “lean-over” as used by racing motor-cycles competitors. The ‘Whipple’ article cannot support as a citation the period 1911-2014 as it is only dated to 1979. Observe a neutral point of view and do not including an article a citation because you “like” certain quotes. (The Whipple quotation was used in the original Windy Corner before being redirected and I have a copy of the text saved as Word document and also used in at least one version of the ‘cut and paste’ description in the list article.)

Conclusion; DO NOT VANDALISE ARTICLES. The article is a list of public road and geographical/road features. It is not an article about the Isle of Man TT Races. The list descriptions, official road descriptions/milestones and coordinates are not necessary and they are duplicating pre-existing information in other articles. There is no need to refer to 3rd party option in the short term or long-term as you are not prepared to wait before the technical improvements in the article appear in the next two or three months. Alternatively, list the article for a AfD nomination.

Postscript. The source that you refer to has been unable to differentiate between “TT Circuit” and Snaefell Mountain Course and that public road traffic operates in both directions. agljones(talk)12:15, 7 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Okay, good, I guess. This time your comments are more useful;  I can understand more of what you say/mean.  Your comments clarify for me that your concern about plagiarism applies to the intro text, as opposed to the table-row descriptions, which I thought you meant.  About the intro text, I hope/believe you understand that in Wikipedia articles not every sentence needs to be supported by an in-line citation.  It's better NOT to provide an inline citation for a statement that is obviously true, just to avoid clutter.  "The Isle of Man is not in Asia" doesn't require support.  And if an intro is a summary of more detailed, well-supported text in the body of an article, then inline citations are not required in the summary, at least if there's no controversy.  (I am not saying the SMC corners list-article's intro is of that summary type.)  Or if a statement includes a link to another article, it can be understood that the detailed support is at the linked article.  If a reader wants more detailed support, they can jolly well follow the link.  So, in a table-row about one corner, it's okay to make a statement whose detailed support is over at the linked corner article, unless the statement seems controversial or someone has objected.


 * In general, if you really do question the truth of a statement, it is okay for you to insist that the statement should be supported directly. The regular way to do that is for you to add a cn citation-needed tag to the statement.  If you feel a statement or passage too closely paraphrases a source, then indicate that by adding a close paraphrasing tag.


 * But okay, in general, you can insist on compliance with wp:INCITE, wp:INTEXT, and wp:INTEGRITY being met by more inline citations, if you feel it is necessary. And you can insist on rewording to more clearly avoid too-close paraphrasing if you feel there's a problem.  I agree that too-close paraphrasing is a kind of plagiarizing, as not giving adequate credit for the wording in the source, but I do not agree if you mean there's ever been intent by me to plagiarize.


 * About using the Whipple quote, I like it because it shares some excitement and is directly on-target for the list-article's intro, in terms of describing motor-cycle racers going through SMC corners, in a list-article about corners. If you could provide one or two quotes from different sources that are suitable the same way, like with examples of racing through SMC corners, I would be very likely to go along with using them instead.  I don't recall coming across such quotes from other sources, myself.  So right now, for me, the Whipple quote is the best and only quote available.  And, like for photographs that are not perfect, I'm going to continue to insist on using it, so we have a disagreement that will end up being settled by others, perhaps poorly.


 * I strongly wish for you to stop implying that I have plagiarized or vandalized anything. Your repetition of statements like "DO NOT VANDALIZE" and "DO NOT PLAGIARIZE" gives the impression you think that I have.  I've been patient because I tend to think you don't know what you're saying.  I think you don't know what those statements really mean, in Wikipedia editors' jargon, within Wikipedia's enforcement processes.


 * If you continue to make serious accusations like that, without support, at some point I will lose patience and open a process calling for you to be blocked from Wikipedia. Don't go on with claims that you do have support and you are justified;  what I mean is that you have not provided the kind of specific support needed, in practice, to justify accusations like that in Wikipedia talk pages, per rules and practice that you don't fully understand.  Being blocked for a short time is no big deal, you will realize, but then if you persist more, you will find yourself blocked for longer and longer periods, or permanently banned from Isle of Man-related topics.  I'm not angry, I am just telling you.  Don't bother going on about "veiled threats": this is an explicit threat, or simply a fact.


 * Again, though, this comment of yours is still better than some previous ones, in my view. Thanks.  Sincerely, -- do  ncr  am  22:44, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

It is very clear, it is not a case that I insist on compliance with WP:INCITE, WP:INTEXT, and WP:INTEGRITY being met with inline citations it is a Wikipedia rule that has to be followed in all circumstances including the executive summary, introduction text, table descriptions/table-row descriptions and also the whole table as a “non-creative lists of information.” Do not use negotiation tactics and incorrect information are removed from Wikipedia on a daily basis without referring to the "cn" or "close paraphrasing" tag. (eg the Targa Florio and Mille Milla are longer road courses and you will not find ANY citations  that contradict this fact or no speed limit (confusion with the UK national 60 mph speed limit which does not apply in the Isle of Man and there are many speed limit section on A18 Mountain Road;- 30 mph May Hill to Ramsey Hairpin, 40 mph at the Windy Corner, 40 mph Hillberry / Cronk-ny-Mona and 30 mph Signpost Corner to Governor's Bridge), "Technological developments of the racing motorcycles are the primary reasons for speed increasing" (no citation and which developments and when did they occur ? ) and "road changes that in recent years have widened or straightened roadways, eliminating or smoothing some corners, have contributed as well" (road conditions in UK at the time were also poor and which corners were eliminated and why ? What is road smoothing is that the road surface and no citation ?). It is not a case of avoiding “clutter” as no citations were provided for most of the statements or facts.  When citations are provided the WP:INTEGRITY rule was not followed (ie “: place your inline citations so that it is clear which source supports which point”) or the table rows were excessively “cluttered” (eg “Windy Corner”) Also again WP:INTEGRITY “Maintain text-source integrity” and again “Windy Corner” when the emphasis was moved from the open moorland (again I now have citations to support this) to the flippant citation  for the “sound whistling up your trouser leg.” The new table avoids the “clutter,” the duplicated information and variations in descriptions which are not acceptable and as you state;- “If a reader wants more detailed support, they can jolly well follow the link.”  The quotations from motor-cycle competitors are not applicable as it is a list of road/ geographically features and further quotations would need to be provided to an alternative point of view of the more controversial aspects of racing. (Show a neutral point of view at all times). I have followed the Wikipedia three-strike rule, asked TEAHOUSE for advice and followed the Wikipedia advisory suggestion of not replying for a week or a day. The reply from a editor Cullen 365 was that “…''edit the article to correct any errors, citing reliable sources. There is no requirement that a list article be complete at any given point in time. If it bothers you that the article is incomplete, simply edit the article to make it more complete, basing your edits on reliable sources. If previous editors do not understand the technical issues as well as you do, then edit the article to improve its presentation of the technical issues, based on what the best reliable sources say''….” I listed on the talk:pages a list of the problems with the entries in the table-rows. . (It is an issue, as incorrect information can be found on Google at least 25 minutes after the change has been made.This is about the Isle of Man TT and it has to be correct. ).  No action was taken to correct the problems and referring to the advice by editor Cullen365, the incorrect information was edited one-row at a time to show changes and reasons for editing. (I could have completed the task in one edit with the new table). The previous edition of the article was then reinstated with the pre-existing unacceptable problems. Again,  the incorrect information was edited one-row at a time to show changes and reasons for editing and then article was then reinstated with some minor changes. The new table is a simple design, shows the corners in the order they appear on the course map, show distance in miles and is uncluttered, avoiding the problems of duplication of articles and other problems. There are links to related articles. Since now action was taken to correct the article action was taken to “edit the article to improve its presentation of the technical issues.” The article was reverted twice and the use of the term “vandalism” is a common term used by editors used within Wikipedia and it is a term that you will understand. I understand the term plagiarise or plagiarism and I understand its context within Wikipedia. I have been dealing with issues of plagiarism in a professional context for over 30 years. In the context of the Wikipedia WP:INCITE, WP:INTEXT, and WP:INTEGRITY rules you have not followed the correct procedure as you have admitted “… ''you can insist on compliance with wp:INCITE, wp:INTEXT, and wp:INTEGRITY being met by more inline citations, if you feel it is necessary. And you can insist on rewording to more clearly avoid too-close paraphrasing if you feel there's a problem. I agree that too-close paraphrasing is a kind of plagiarizing, as not giving adequate credit for the wording in the source''. ” Again, certain incorrect information was removed as no citation was provided (eg the Targa Florio and Mille Milla are longer road courses and you will not find ANY citations  that contradict this fact). Wikipedia states " You can avoid inadvertent plagiarism by remembering these rules of thumb: " ie WP:INCITE, WP:INTEXT, and WP:INTEGRITY. Therefore, it is completely unnecessary as you state to make an “explicit threat.” As an editor, Wikipedia asks you to provide information which counters any accusation or comment to another editor and you have not completed this process. I again will raise the issue of “plagiarism” or “vandalism” (if you do not like the use of the term then take the issue to Wikipedia) as defined/used by Wikipedia as appropriate. I have asked you before not to make any veiled or implicit threats. It is a case that that you either escalate the internal Wikipedia process or do not make “explicit threats” or further comments. During, any Wikipedia internal process you will have to explain, repeated stonewalling, delays, reverted edits, making repeated personal comments(including comments seen in British-English as (social) deviancy), using US-Slang and informal US speech patterns, using expletive’s hidden being asterisks,  very poor written English (including two or more different writing styles which would suggest more than one editor), over-writing British-English, incorrect use of legal terms, very poor creative standards, breaking-up edits on talk:pages to create a master list which I cannot follow historically, sudden unexplained collapsed sections in talk:pages, an unexplained editing conflict, redirecting pages when there was no consensus to either delete or merge an article, rambling non-sequitur questions, using negotiation tactics, not observing  a neutral point of view WP:NOV, duplicating information and providing misleading and inaccurate sections, including unnecessary information and crossing over into other pre-existing articles, including links to commercial websites, writing in a commercial advertorial style,  using photos that have copyright issues within Wikipedia commons,  setting editing standards about redirecting articles - “padding” and do not mention the “moorland” WP:OWN, using citations from inaccurate and baised internet articles, repeatedly block use the  “Whipple” quotation because you “like it,”  repeatedly ignoring the WP:NOT rule and then again trying negotiation tactics and the complete lack of background knowledge and access to sources. Finally, you will have to explain the “bullying comments” on your profile page and the comments about “minor edits” which is a very common Wikipedia practice amongst editors as the rules are not always fully observed and no action has been taken by Wikipedia to the general editor population. agljones(talk)11:59, 8 April 2015 (UTC)


 * FYI, I posted a request at wp:3PO in this diff. I will try to support 3PO process work in resolving content disagreements.  This request starts with table row elements and formatting pointing to the Talk page section on just that topic.  Again I have never used 3PO service and I am hopeful it will help here. -- do  ncr  am  01:36, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * No wp:3PO listed. Remove listed problems in article. agljones(talk)07:06, 11 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Agljones, your collapsing of the discussion above, in which I suggested using 3PO (and I think you generally were agreeing, or at least not disagreeing to do so) is acknowledged. Again, in this diff a 3PO request was made.  Scroll down to see the request;  it's in "Active disagreements" section.  Your statement  (inserted above the collapsed discussion, in the same edit) that "Editor has been asked not to contact about this issue.  Editors role in the article is not technical good enough for Wikipedia." is troubling to me.  Do you mean that you have asked me elsewhere not to contact you?  Because you have not, as far as I know.  I have hoped that my taking your views seriously and trying to discuss them here and at Talk page of list-article, then proceeding with 3PO requests, would make progress.  Let's see if it does. :)  -- do  ncr  am  14:05, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

It is has been obvious that you have not been very good at reading posts and also the very poor written english which is not a good enough standard for Wikipedia. It is not acceptable for Wikipedia to have two or more different versions about the same subject. Also, Wikipedia rule are very clear and as Wikipedia states " You can avoid inadvertent plagiarism by remembering these rules of thumb: " ie WP:INCITE, WP:INTEXT, and WP:INTEGRITY. It is not acceptable or high enough standard for Wikipedia that you persist with "inadvertent plagiarism" and repeatedly not able to reach the standards with this article and you have repeatedly been asked to deal with the inaccuracies, mistakes, misleading facts, the issues of notability, issues of verifiability, the repeated attempts to move off topic and you have been unable to either police or "own your own edits." This is about the Isle of Man TT and the motor-cycle network of articles and the US-English and repeated Americanisation of the articles is unacceptable as it is unwarranted. The Isle of Man TT is a world-wide event and not a "niche" subject like a list of Methodists churches. The subject matter has to be accurate and seen it its correct perspective and it is not acceptable for so many mistakes, badly though-out and inconsistent and misleading facts to be listed on Google in about 35 minutes after they have been written. The third-part option is neither mandatory nor binding and should not be used to try and repeatedly negotiate with another editor or try and limit the future development of an article. Finally, what has been the most unacceptable part has been the repeated attempts to try and by-pass the specific Wikipedia rule WP:NOT by listing only the date and the reference (I checked the 1955 newspaper source and the article entry is incorrect) and could be mistaken for a road traffic accident on a public road. This has been reinforced today when a school friend,  (a former Manx Grand Prix winner and Isle of Man TT competitor) of 25 years was killed this morning in a high speed racing motor-cycle accident. I have previously listed the problems of racing motor-cycle accidents and it has been ignored and subject to an unexplained collapse of the section. This is not the same as having a "bump" in a car-park with car with an air-bag and then listed in the same spurious, trivial and highly-objectionable manner. Not only does the Isle of Man TT have its world-wide audience, the fatal accident of any competitor racing a motor-cycle racing is seen as a great personal loss by the motor-cycle community world-wide and this can be expressed by the quote by the movie actor Steve McQueen as ".... When you´re racing, it's life, anything that happens before or after is just waiting ...." As mentioned previously, resolve the issues with this article, do not use the third-party option to try to negotiate with an editor and follow the Wikipedia rules  ofWP:INCITE, WP:INTEXT, and WP:INTEGRITY. This matter will be dealt with irrespective of any third-party option or any other Wikipedia procedure. agljones(talk)19:10, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
 * I have seen news stories about it, and I am sorry about the loss of your friend's life. -- do ncr  am  01:19, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

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Nomination for deletion of Template:Jim Clark Rally
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Walter Watts
Hello. I've removed the GNG template you placed on this article because the subject meets the specific guidelines for a first-class cricketer within WP:ATHLETE – see WP:NCRIC and, more appropriately, WP:CRIN. Thanks. Jack | talk page 10:13, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

courtesy notices
Hi Agljones, I hope you don't mind my posting courtesy notices, below, to your talk page. -- do ncr  am  14:58, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Nomination of 2nd Milestone for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article 2nd Milestone is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

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Nomination of Keppel Gate, Isle of Man for deletion
A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Keppel Gate, Isle of Man is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Articles for deletion/Keppel Gate, Isle of Man until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Deletion discussion about Windy Corner, Isle of Man
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Proposed deletion of Mather's Cross


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