User:Aladdin Sane/B5-AS-notes

These are some areas that I've worked on for WikiProject Babylon 5 that needed sandboxing or central preservation (cites) for future use.

These are WP:SS of my notes:


 * /Divided Loyalties (sandbox)
 * /List of locations in Babylon 5 (sandbox)

Themes
Throughout its run, Babylon 5 found ways to portray themes relevant to modern and historical social issues. It marked several firsts in television science fiction, such as the exploration of the political and social landscapes of the first human colonies, their interactions with Earth, and the underlying tensions. Babylon 5 was also one of the first television science fiction shows to denotatively refer to a same-sex relationship. In the show, sexual orientation is as much of an issue as "being left-handed or right-handed". Unrequited love is explored as a source of pain for the characters, though not all the relationships end unhappily.

Main B5 article has too long Infobox starring list
I noticed the starring list in the main article Infobox is getting too long. I added Rusler and Carter noting that they had been excluded unfairly when O'Hare and Scoggins were included. There are two more names to be added I discovered: Adams and Brown. But the list is already too long, and impinging on the main body of the article. Instead of killing the list and doing a See: template (as I believe was done in the past), maybe a collapsible list inside the Infobox is a better solution. There is documentation on how to to do this at Template:Collapsible list/doc.

List of Babylon 5 people who "insist on staying dead"
Note: "insist on staying dead" quote is from JMS. "[M]ost important, I can’t see the structure of a B5 movie right now as long as long as Andreas and Rick insist on staying dead."

Date of death, person, position


 * 1) 1994, November: Peter Ledger, designer, original B5 artwork
 * 2) 2001, February: Lewis Arquette, actor, General Smits ("Point of No Return")
 * 3) 2001, February: Tony Steedman, actor, Dr. Everett Jacobs ("Hunter, Prey")
 * 4) 2001, December: Roy Brocksmith, actor, Brother Alwyn Macomber ("The Deconstruction of Falling Stars")
 * 5) 2002, August: Jeff Corey, actor, Justin ("Z'ha'dum")
 * 6) 2003, June: Trevor Goddard, actor, Trace ("Learning Curve")
 * 7) 2004, March: Paul Winfield, actor, General Richard Franklin ("GROPOS")
 * 8) 2004, May: Richard Biggs, actor, Dr. Stephen Franklin
 * 9) 2004, September: Tim Choate, actor, Zathras', Zath'ras, and Polix (Crusade, "The Rules of the Game")
 * 10) 2005, December: Robert Sheckley, novelizer, Babylon 5: A Call to Arms
 * 11) 2006, February: Andreas Katsulas, actor, G'Kar
 * 12) 2006, September: Johnny Sekka, actor, Dr. Benjamin Kyle
 * 13) 2007, August: Richard Compton, co-producer, director (pilot, 5 episodes)
 * 14) 2008, January: Lois Nettleton, actor, Daggair ("Soul Mates")
 * 15) 2008, December: Majel Barrett, actor, Lady Morella ("Point of No Return")
 * 16) 2009, November: Edward Woodward, actor, Alwyn (Crusade, "The Long Road")

Useful citations
I made these cites; gathering the data from the DVDs for future cites may be helpful; also looking around at books others have cited.

Babylon 5
Described as a "window on the future" by series production designer John Iacovelli,[currently at 10 in the article] the story is set in the 23rd century on a large O'Neill Colony named "Babylon 5"—a five-mile-long, 2.5 million-ton rotating colony designed as a gathering place for the sentient species of the galaxy, in order to foster peace through diplomacy, trade, and cooperation.

And Now For a Word

 * The Psi-Corps commercial contains a semi-subliminal message: during the closing of the commercial "The Psi Corps is your friend. Trust the Corps" flashes on the screen.

A book reference from Subliminal messages in popular culture

 * In a 1995 episode of Babylon 5, during a scene which represents a PSA for the Psi Corps, the words "TRUST THE CORPS" and "THE CORPS IS YOUR FRIEND" appear on screen for four frames. J. Michael Straczynski wanted the audience to recognize the subliminal message; "I had my staff find out what constitutes subliminal material--and it's two frames per second, which is illegal, you can't do things at that speed--so I went four frames per second".

What's canon?
Well, I've been looking over the 300 or so Babylon 5 universe Project articles on English Wikipedia since late September. I'd like input on whether you agree or disagree with these thoughts. (OK, this post is a WP:TLDR, granted ahead of time.)

This essay has three different parts: a) Canon, b) How do we organize? and c) A proposed article name change.

Canon
My impression of Project scope is that mainly what we're talking about here is the intersection of two things:


 * 1) What's allowed under EN WP Policy and Guidelines
 * 2) What's B5 canon

So, for EN WP P&G we have one or two (or one or two thousand) documents that tell us what that is.

My question becomes, "What's B5 canon?"

From studying the articles and other sources I think canon consists of three things:


 * 1) Primary canon
 * 2) Secondary canon
 * 3) "Because JMS said so."

One) Primary canon is all that published on DVD.  While we could say, arguably, that it is all that which originally aired on TV, that would exclude The Lost Tales, a direct-to-DVD work in the scope of canon.  The "aired on TV" argument also has an encyclopedic sourcing problem in that we can't really independently recapture what went out originally over the airwaves in a fixed, published form to properly source it to the primary source.  The DVDs are published, and have ISBNs to identify them and prove their publication.  The only sourcing problem the DVD standard has is that it does not include original airdates.  This problem is largely or wholly solved by the Lurker's Guide and other online sources that have preserved these for us.

Two) Secondary canon is almost entirely defined by what's in the article "Babylon 5 novels, short stories and comic books".  What's missing from that article is the games that are considered canonical, as these are secondary, and the apparently canonical B5 CD-ROM.  Seems like something else is missing.  Hmm.  Oh, well, the point is to try to find all the compelling sources (see Three, below) that state that secondary canon is canon, and take anything non-canonical and segregate it into a separate article section or sub-section, or maybe delete it, depending on consensus.

Three) Whenever JMS says something is canon, it is.  What JMS asserts about the B5 universe, is the B5 universe, by definition.  In all the Talk pages I've read, there aren't any Project editors that disagree with the assertion or the argument behind it:  That he created the universe, it's his to say as he pleases about it.  Examples of "Because JMS said so" include the actual site documented at the article "The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5", which JMS said he used for writing the canon (and is cited in that article that way), and therefor rises to the level of canon itself, and anything JMS asserts in messages posted online since at least 1991 that have been verified (and if they show up at his sanctioned archive or Lurker's Guide, then they have been verified).  There are a variety of other sources that have published interviews with JMS, and since his words are quoted, they are usable as assertions of canon.

Given these three categories, I detect an ambiguity surrounding "toys and dolls as secondary canon". Here, the argument breaks for me into two possibilities: JMS-style canon and Warner Bros. marketing department-style canon. I think I detect a consensus among editors that JMS-style canon is the standard here. Nonetheless, given a strict segregation, and explanation to the reader what we mean by differentiating the two types of canon, I see where these could possibly be added to an article; if anyone ever thinks they're otherwise noteworthy (perhaps for literary criticism purposes).

(Note the idea of defining canon was first proposed by editor Fang Aili 18:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC) in section Naming Conventions of B5 Project Talk Archive 1.)

How do we organize around canon?
How does this go to article organization in the encyclopedia?

Personally, I see the whole Project as one big WP:SS off of the main article "Babylon 5". It's sort of a "mini-web" inside the encyclopedia, with each article related to the other both hierarchically and non-hierarchically.

Of the articles, most are titled against a canonical element, such as an episode title, a species title, a character title, a location title, or a plot element title. List articles, very useful both because they are a way of grouping elements not notable enough for an independent article and because they serve to guide the reader to relevant canon articles, are included here.

There is an Index article here, not sure how we're supposed to maintain it. I take it there are some automated tools lying around somewhere, just need to implement them. I noticed WikiProject Iowa has an automated watchlist for all their articles, I thought that was pretty cool, speaking of automated tools.

We have spin-off articles that describe and help define canon from an out-of-universe perspective but are not titled against a canonical element. That I can see, these are "Babylon 5 Influences", "Babylon 5's use of the Internet", "rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated", and "The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5".

In addition to the three areas of canon listed above, there is a fourth area to look at, non-canon. These are the articles that deal specifically with something B5 universe-related, but are zero canon-related. On the canonicity meter, from 0 to 100, these articles hit an exact 0. These are, "The Be Five", "Babylon Park", "Star Wreck: In the Pirkinning", and "Stellar Occasion".

The deleted article "Similarities between Babylon 5 and Star Trek: Deep Space" should be mentioned. (The article, in case any new editor reading this wonders, is around the corner down the street at Wikia, hanging out smoking a cigarette. See AfD 1 and AfD 2.)

There is one article hanging out that I think should be re-titled and worked on, "Mythology of Babylon 5". The article has great potential I feel as a stopping point for all our red linked in-universe items, such as Interplanetary Expeditions, but the title offends me greatly as a B5 fan, since it confuses genuine real world out-of-universe myth on which B5 is based, Babylonian creation myth, in JMS' own words, and the Hollywood/fandom/whatever WP:PEACOCK/WP:WEASEL term "myth" which should always be avoided in the encyclopedia. It's a fancrufty word to say the least because it overstates the subject: The subject is a TV show. I can't think of a really great title, some things that come to mind are "List of Babylon 5 artifacts", "List of Babylon 5 notable in-universe elements", "List of Babylon 5 stuff we couldn't figure out where else to put". Hmm. May need a little work.

There is another article hanging out that fits none of the above possibilities, "TMoS". Fundamental to hitting the "primary canon" or "secondary canon" definition is that the work must be published. Works that are in no way published, by definition, cannot be canonical. When you think about it, they cannot be non-canonical either. They don't exist as published works either way. The "TMoS" article should be renamed "The unproduced scripts of J. Michael Straczynski", or something else JMS-related, and expanded: JMS himself does write online about how many scripts in Hollywood go unproduced: I think he said that produced scripts end up being maybe 10–30% of the total. My feeling is that the TMoS article has nothing to do with the B5 universe, canon or otherwise, but does have to do with JMS, who does meet WP-style notability and might deserve a WP:SS article. Were there a WikiProject JMS, I'd advocate moving the article to their scope.

There aren't any other B5 articles on EN WP. Or, there are, and they're mighty well hid. Or, there are, and I've just forgotten to mention them.

All different types of articles intersect with the Project articles, without being B5 articles. Some examples are actor's bios, and lists of various elements of fiction. Various media criticism articles mention B5. There's lots. Many of them are inherently in-universe such as "List of fictional medicines and drugs", and many are real world, out-of-universe, such as "Science fiction on television".

A proposed article name change
One reason I wanted to organize these thoughts, is that I think the B5 games belong in the secondary canon article, not the primary one. The problem with moving the section is the title of the secondary canon article. Currently it is titled "Babylon 5 novels, short stories and comic books". I have two names to propose, and I think they both pretty much suck.


 * 1) Babylon 5 novels, short stories, comic books and games. This article title sucks because it takes an already too-long title and makes it longer.  Conceivably, we could even call it Babylon 5 novels, short stories, comic books, games and interactive CD-ROM.  Oh, that would overjoy the wikigods.
 * 2) Babylon 5 secondary canon. This title sucks because I think it is unclear to our target audience, the reader unfamiliar with the subject, what it is we are talking about.  We might be able to use re-directs to make this title work out OK.  I'm not sure I have all the implications of re-directs down yet.

Resolving the article title problem for the secondary canon article has to occur before moving the Games section out of the main article; else the Games section will look very strange there. I would like input on what to call the secondary canon article, if we decide to move the Games section from one article to the other.

Moving Games from the primary article would help move that article one step closer to GA, by helping its length problem, and its focus problem, at the same time.

(Hey, don't forget to sign this when you post it.)

The nine canonical cites for B5 primary canon

 * *Work in progress (should be obvious)*

This is meant to be a definitive list of all DVD publications within the "B5 universe" that can be used by we editors as cites in articles, when citing primary sources is appropriate. Most of the time, copy and paste from here will need to be augmented with details such as Writer, Director, DVD number within the release, episode number on the DVD and episode or other title of the "minor work", in order to make the cite specific to what is being cited. To that end, the Cite video template is used in vertical format to allow these details to be easily added or changed. These are "Region One" (R1) AKA "Canada, United States, U.S. territories, Bermuda" publications.

While citing specifics can get tricky sometimes, there are actually only 9 possible cites, or "meta-cites", in this list, and that covers everything quite neatly. Consider them "generic cites".

One note for the editor who does not own these: You can still complete a cite this way:  Writer, director and episode number are all found on WP in the episode article. DVD number is calculated like this (it's the same for all 5 season DVD sets): DVD 1 = episodes 1-4, DVD 2 = episodes 5-8, DVD 3 = episodes 9-12, DVD 4 = episodes 13-16, DVD 5 = episodes 17-20, DVD 6 = episodes 21-22. In other words, 4 episodes per DVD, in order, except the last, which contains 2 episodes.

There are no more (R1) references (as of January 2010) than what is documented here that is a primary reference to primary canon. This list is meant to cover everything, "completist" style. There are interesting anomalies, such as the original release of The Gathering, or the messed up original airing of "Chrysalis". Most of the time that I can see, these don't rise to WP-style notability, and so don't need to be included in this list, but if mentioned in their respective articles, a different cite might be needed.

There are of course plenty of secondary sources, and a whole lot of secondary canon, that is not listed here.

These references allow the reader to verify the source of the material in six different ways: 1) by Universal Product Code (UPC), 2) by Amazon Standard Identification Number (ASIN), 3) by International Standard Book Number (ISBN), 4) by Online Computer Library Center number (OCLC), 5) by Internet Movie Database (IMDb) reference, and 6) by tertiary reference to the encyclopedia (WP). Since all six are generally consistent (except Amazon likes to show airdate rather than pubdate in the title), the references themselves should not be assailable by other editors. The caveat is of course, that primary references should not be used where secondary references are more appropriate. My feeling is that citing primary sources is better than citing nothing at all, as we have done so far in many cases in spin-off articles within the Project (note, I'm defining "spin-off article" per WP:SS as all Project articles except the main Babylon 5 article).

In the last two cites, the link to the Check UPC web site is broken, indicating the title is not in their database at this time. I suspect it will be in the future. The UPC template is not used in these two cases to prevent the reader from following a link that does not currently exist.

Please make a comment if I've made any errors here.

So here's the list:
 * Title (initial start airdate) publication date, num DVD's, num minutes
 * 1) Babylon 5: The Complete First Season (Signs and Portents) (1994) November 5, 2002, 6 DVD's, 956 minutes
 * 2) Babylon 5: The Complete Second Season (The Coming of Shadows) (1995) April 29, 2003, 6 DVD's, 960 minutes
 * 3) Babylon 5: The Complete Third Season (Point of No Return) (1996) August 12, 2003, 6 DVD's, 968 minutes
 * 4) Babylon 5: The Complete Fourth Season (No Surrender, No Retreat) (1997) January 6, 2004, 6 DVD's, 966 minutes
 * 5) Babylon 5: The Complete Fifth Season (The Wheel of Fire) (1998) April 13, 2004, 6 DVD's, 968 minutes
 * 6) Babylon 5: The Movie Collection (1993, 1998, 1999) August 17, 2004, 5 DVD's, 471 minutes
 * 7) Crusade: The Complete Series (1999) December 7, 2004, 4 DVD's, 576 minutes
 * 8) Babylon 5: The Legend of the Rangers (2002) March 14, 2006, 1 DVD, 90 minutes
 * 9) Babylon 5: The Lost Tales – Voices in the Dark (none) July 31, 2007, 1 DVD, 72 minutes

Total DVD's: 41. Total runtime: 6,027 minutes (100.45 hours or 100 hours, 27 minutes or 4 days, 4 hours, 27 minutes).

I noticed putting the cites in to action that mostly what I'm trying to cite is an episode: The episode title obviously needs to be in the cite somewhere. I used "Episode or special feature title" in the generic cite to indicate that these can also be used to cite special features on the DVD's that aren't actual episodes or movies. This is already being done in the article "Babylon 5", and I'm really glad the editor had told us which special feature on which DVD was being cited (it's the Iacovelli cite currently at 10) (all the special features have titles like "The Making of Babylon 5" or some such).

I don't think that time marks are required in most cases, so they can be deleted when using these. There are notable exceptions when a time mark is needed, see, for example, the Psi Corps reference in "And Now For a Word".

Notes on length of work and copyvio
Above, I showed that the primary canon, properly referenced to the source, quantifies as Total DVD's: 41. Total runtime: 6,027 minutes.

Note about Fair Use, de minimus, and copyvio arguers: At 30 frames per second, the work consists of 10,848,600 frames. Any screenshot (frame) taken from the work equals 0.00000921778 percent of the work (less than one one-hundred-thousandth of one percent of the work). There isn't a judge on the face of the planet that would look at that and think anything other than de minimus. Even if we take 300 screenshots for 300 articles, we're still at 0.00276533378 percent of the work used (less than one one-hundredth of one percent and closer to one one-thousandth of a percent). The copyvio arguments are ludicrous when you look at them clearly. Once we hit 0.1 percent of the work (one tenth of one percent), let the copyvio arguers come around and maybe I'll listen. That number of screenshots (one tenth of one percent) we should use for the articles describing this work is 10,849.

More about quantifying the work
Above, I showed that the primary canon, properly referenced to the source, quantifies as Total DVD's: 41. Total runtime: 6,027 minutes.

The other quantity to be noted is by pages or words written. We have JMS on record comparing the written work to the size of a novel. From this we can estimate pages and words written, to give us an idea of the scope of the written work. I note others have actually purchased the scripts, and may know more about the issue. But this is a start.

Assertions by JMS:


 * 1) One season = 1,100 written pages
 * 2) One season = 275,000 written words

Exact mathematical deductions from the assertions (22 episodes per season):


 * 1) One episode = 50 pages
 * 2) One episode = 12,500 words

Quantifying the work to take an estimation of written size:


 * 1) 110 main episodes
 * 2) 13 Crusade episodes
 * 3) 14 movie episodes, where one movie = 2 episodes length, 7 movies = 5 DVD set plus B5LotR and B5TLT (bit short on the episodes in TLT, 36 instead of 43 minutes, hmm).

Work expressed as episodes = 137 "episodes" therefor


 * Total pages = 6,850 pages
 * Total words = 1,712,500 words

Again, this goes to the Wikiquote assertion that somehow we've "taken too much" of the work. Fair Use in the US calls for comparing the size copied to the size of the work; it's one of the four Fair Use tests. Using wc, compared to the Wikiquote page currently at about 34,416 words (including sub-heads, etc.), we've taken under Fair Use about 2.01% of the work.

Writers who are not JMS
Within the scope of primary canon, there are few writers who are "not JMS". I will list all of these here for reference.


 * 1) S1 Ep03, "Born to the Purple" by Lawrence G. "Larry" DiTillio (needs credit style confirmed)
 * 2) S1 Ep07, "The War Prayer" by D. C. Fontana
 * 3) S1 Ep09, "Deathwalker" by Lawrence G. DiTillio
 * 4) S1 Ep10, "Believers" by David Gerrold
 * 5) S1 Ep11, "Survivors" by Marc Scott Zicree
 * 6) S1 Ep12, "By Any Means Necessary" by Kathryn M. Drennan
 * 7) S1 Ep14, "TKO" by Lawrence G. DiTillio
 * 8) S1 Ep15, "Grail" by Christy Marx
 * 9) S1 Ep16, "Eyes" by Lawrence G. DiTillio
 * 10) S1 Ep17, "Legacies" by D. C. Fontana


 * 1) S2 Ep04, "A Distant Star" by D. C. Fontana
 * 2) S2 Ep05, "The Long Dark" by Scott Frost
 * 3) S2 Ep06, "A Spider in the Web" by Lawrence G. DiTillio
 * 4) S2 Ep07, "Soul Mates" by Peter David
 * 5) S2 Ep10, "Gropos" by Lawrence G. DiTillio
 * 6) S2 Ep14, "There All the Honor Lies" by Peter David
 * 7) S2 Ep17, "Knives" by Lawrence G. DiTillio

(I've personally confirmed through S2, Ep21, except that style reference on DiTillio)


 * S3: None


 * S4: None


 * 1) S5 Ep04, "A View from the Gallery" by J. Michael Straczynski and Harlan Ellison (confirmation needed)
 * 2) S5 Ep08, "Day of the Dead" by Neil Gaiman
 * 3) S5 Ep20, "Objects in Motion" by J. Michael Straczynski and Harlan Ellison (confirmation needed)
 * (I thought Ellison got writing credits for "Objects at Rest"?)

Crusade
 * 1) C1 Ep03, "The Well of Forever" by Fiona Avery
 * 2) C1 Ep05, "Patterns of the Soul" by Fiona Avery
 * 3) C1 Ep06, "Ruling From the Tomb" by Peter David

Listed by author
In chronological order by first "appearance" (total episodes written in parentheses).


 * 1) DiTillio, Lawrence G.: S1 Ep03, S1 Ep09, S1 Ep14, S1 Ep16, S2 Ep06, S2 Ep10, S2 Ep17 (7)
 * 2) Fontana, D. C.: S1 Ep07, S1 Ep17, S2 Ep04 (3)
 * 3) Gerrold, David: S1 Ep10 (1)
 * 4) Zicree, Marc Scott: S1 Ep11 (1)
 * 5) Drennan, Kathryn M.: S1 Ep12 (1)
 * 6) Marx, Christy: S1 Ep15 (1)
 * 7) Frost, Scott: S2 Ep05 (1)
 * 8) David, Peter: S2 Ep07, S2 Ep14, C1 Ep06 (3) *
 * 9) Ellison, Harlan: S5 Ep04, S5 Ep20 (2) **
 * 10) Gaiman, Neil: S5 Ep08 (1)
 * 11) Avery, Fiona: C1 Ep03, C1 Ep05 (2)
 * *Only writer to cross between shows (besides JMS)
 * **Only writer to have shared credit (outside of JMS)

Here's an observation: Given that we're claiming five seasons times 22 episodes equals 110 episodes (which we are, I note we're counting "double episodes" as two episodes for our math and sanity; they do require double the writing), then JMS did not write 92 episodes, and he did not write 91 episodes; to make it clear for the reader we have to note at some point (as in a footnote) that he wrote precisely "90+0.5+0.5=91 episodes" (plus, of course, he wrote all the movies and 10 Crusade episodes).

If we argue it the other way, then JMS wrote 92 episodes, DiTillio 7, Fontana 3, David 2, Ellison 2, Gerrold 1, Zicree 1, Drennan 1, Marx 1, Frost 1 and Gaiman 1 totaling 112 episodes. Uh oh, we now have a math problem since 110 episodes were aired and published, and this goes to (against) our credibility as editors when other editors question our assertions.

Directors of note, credited more than once
This has become important as of March, 2015.

Certain directors, such Janet Greek and Jesus Trevino, had a disproportionate effect on the show, the overall canon of what it has become.

I intend to list and credit them here.

My purpose is to make sure that there achievements are properly credited in their WP bios, and if possible on Wikimedia Commons.

There may also be directors credited here who only directed one episode. The reason would be for an unusual and notable achievement, such as winning the Hugo or Emmy award for the episode.


 * Richard Compton
 * Jesús Salvador Treviño: 5 episodes, 1 movie, 1 Crusade episode
 * "Divided Loyalties" S2 Ep19
 * "Sic Transit Vir" S3 Ep12
 * "Interludes and Examinations" S3 Ep15
 * "Racing Mars" S4 Ep10
 * "Objects in Motion" S5 Ep20
 * Thirdspace
 * "The Rules of the Game" (Crusade) C1 Ep07
 * Janet Greek: How many episodes?
 * Mike Vejar

(from freebase.com about to be taken down, March 2015, in favor of Wikidata:

Adam Nimoy Z'ha'dum  Passing Through Gethsemane

David J. Eagle In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum	    A Day in the Strife   Dust to Dust    Severed Dreams    And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place

J. Michael Straczynski   Sleeping in Light    Voices in the Dark: Over Here    Voices in the Dark: Over There    A View from the Gallery    Objects in Motion

Janet Greek   And the Sky Full of Stars	    Points of Departure    The Coming of Shadows    No Compromises    Chrysalis

Jesús Salvador Treviño   Divided Loyalties    Interludes and Examinations    Objects in Motion    A Late Delivery from Avalon    Racing Mars

Jim Johnston   Severed Dreams	    Soul Hunter    Survivors  Point of No Return    Gropos

John C. Flinn, III	   Strange Relations    Soul Mates    TKO    The Long, Twilight Struggle    Epiphanies

John Copeland   The Ragged Edge    Objects at Rest    Endgame    Ruling from the Tomb  C1  Ep06

John Lafia   The Long Night    The Exercise of Vital Powers    Intersections in Real Time

Kevin Cremin   Confessions and Lamentations    Walkabout   Matters of Honor    Exogenesis    Spider in the Web

Kevin Dobson   Into the Fire    Whatever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?

Mario DiLeo   The Long Dark    And Now for a Word

Richard Compton   Midnight on the Firing Line    Infection    The War Prayer

Stephen Furst   The Corps Is Mother, the Corps Is Father    The Illusion of Truth    The Deconstruction of Falling Stars   Appearances and Other Deceits   C1 Ep08    Each Night I Dream of Home   C1 Ep13

Tony Dow   A Tragedy of Telepaths    Rising Star    Moments of Transition    Atonement    Secrets of the Soul )

List of notable B5 languages
This list makes an argument for each real-world language that B5 is spoken of in. The reason for the list is because Commons is in to doing the multiple language thing. This list is meant to be inclusive. The word "notable" in this context means the answer to the question, "What other languages have we seen others write of B5 in around the Internet?"

List of ISO 639-1 codes


 * Language – argument


 * 1) English (en, English) – This is the language show was originally produced in.  A wide variety of English is used in the show, especially British and American varieties.
 * 2) French (fr, français) – This language is used in subtitles on the R1 DVD's. Note that R1 DVD's cannot be sold (legally) in Europe or Mexico.
 * 3) Spanish (es, español) – This language is used in subtitles on the R1 DVD's. Note that R1 DVD's cannot be sold (legally) in Europe or Mexico.
 * 4) German (de, Deutsch) – Someone took the time to translate the B5 description on its Commons page into German. Also, many of our Fair Use images originally came from a German web site.
 * 5) Russian (ru, |en|%D1%80%D1%83%D1%81%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9%20%D1%8F%D0%B7%D1%8B%D0%BA русский язык) – The 'ru' category has been added to the episode articles. Also, someone took the time to translate the Russian text on Ivanova's quarters wall image into English (though the translation was deleted from the article per WP:TRIVIA which clearly states to delete all trivia (sarcasm)).  Series creator claims general Russian ancestry, though the specifics are outside the scope of this list.
 * 6) Italian (it, italiano) – At least one Commons editor of the science fiction related stuff there speaks this language natively (User:Yoggysot). There are cultural references to things Italian via the character of Garibaldi.
 * 7) Croatian (hr, hrvatski) – Notable because it is the native language (citation needed) of a major season star, and I believe leading to the series popularity in that region.
 * 8) Bulgarian (bg, български език)– The article "Babylon 5" is a Featured Article in this language's Wikipedia, indicating editors have worked really hard on it, they must've cared.
 * 9) Hebrew (he, עִבְרִית) – The article "Babylon 5" is a Featured Article in this language's Wikipedia, indicating editors have worked really hard on it, they must've cared.
 * 10) *There's one more language here that I noted, I can't remember how, maybe as a reference, I think it was a Scandinavian language...something European...I'll find it again eventually.

Note about this section: I copied it to Aladdin Sane/B5-AS-notes, worked on it some more, and it finally landed at commons:Talk:Babylon 5 where it was eventually implemented on the Commons B5 page there. As of this date (2009-12-15), the German and Russian translations are fixed, and there are 11 other translations that still need fixing.

TLT Credits
Transcribed from the source (the DVD)


 * Directed by JMS
 * Written by JMS
 * Created by JMS
 * Bruce Boxleitner
 * Tracy Scoggins
 * Peter Woodward
 * Alan Scarfe
 * Bruce Ramsay
 * Teryl Rothery


 * Executive Producer Douglas Netter
 * Executive Producer JMS
 * Produced by Sara (Samm) Barnes
 * Line Producer Lisa Towers
 * Co-Producer Ben Brafman
 * Director of Photography Karl Herrmann
 * Production Designer Jill Scott
 * Original Series Production Designer John Iacovelli
 * Edited by Stein Myhrstad
 * Music by Christopher Franke


 * Featuring


 * Prince Vintari - Keegan Macintosh
 * Guard - Craig Veroni


 * Casting by Candice Elzinga
 * Visual Effects Supervisor Andrew Karr


 * Visual Effects by Atmosphere Visual Effects


 * Made up credits because the film never credits the actors to the characters (Need to track this down somewhere to confirm) (have to go with what IMDb says, but their written credit for Prince Vintari is incorrect):


 * Bruce Boxleitner - President John Sheridan
 * Tracy Scoggins - Colonel Elizabeth Lochley
 * Peter Woodward - Galen
 * Alan Scarfe - Father Cassidy
 * Bruce Ramsay - Simon Burke
 * Teryl Rothery - ISN reporter Ms. Chambers

List of JMS online addresses
These addresses are or have been used by JMS publicly online, and advertised in a particular public forum or public web site. I have no intention of outing any private information here. The motive for this list is because we use these in citations to the source of the information, and the source was or is public at the time.

I note that none or nearly none of them correspond to Internet, but instead indicate an Internet gateway used by a proprietary service user to gate their users messages into Internet services, such as Usenet and Internet e-mail from the proprietary service. There is a huge difference, particularly when looking at authenticity and moderation: The proprietary services tended to use moderators to keep their messages clean. JMS ran in to this exact problem when he participated in Usenet via a gateway: The un-moderated message base (newsgroup) he was posting through the gateway to became untenable, and a moderated one needed to be put up in its place. I think this happened about 1996.

No proprietary online services exist anymore. Unless I am mistaken (why would they, ISP's are too prevalent). Where they are named the same, as is the case of AOL, they are no longer proprietary service providers, they are ISPs now. They didn't used to be in the time frame we're looking at, the 80's and early 90's.

Each address listed uses the template NoSpam to prevent the addresses being abused.

Proprietary (non-Internet) online services in the 80's and early 90's: GEnie, CompuServe, AOL and others.


 * source: Where to write to show support for Babylon 5 (Lurker's Guide)
 * Time frame: as early as November 1991 (citation needed).
 * Time frame: as early as November 1991 (citation needed).

"The first rule of Fight Club is:
you do not talk about Fight Club."

Sierra Papa Oscar Oscar

The first rule of editing Babylon 5 articles on Wikipedia, "Don't talk about Xxxx."

From the Project Talk page Archive 1:

Xxxx featured article review mention: 25 July 2007

Xxxx AfD 7 September 2007

Xxxx FAR 12 August 2008
 * Redirect/unilateral delete 24 October 2008

Some FA/FAC/FAR/FARC records:

(wikilink: Wikipedia:Featured article removal candidates/Xxxx 14 March 2006 still featured)

(wikilink: Wikipedia:Featured article review/Xxxx/archive1 3 September 2007 kept)

(wikilink: Wikipedia:Featured article review/Xxxx/archive2 13 September 2008 removed)

Some AfD records:

(wikilink: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Xxxx 12 September 2007 kept)

From the Talk page:

Hiimken's edit to Babylon 5 gets reverted
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Babylon_5&diff=628015847&oldid=628014154

This edit is perfect. But it is a personal recollection with internal references only. It got reverted. I believe the testimonial as a fair witness to it. But that is not the editorial standard. I wish we could enlighten such editors of how to make their edits stick. If only to prevent them wasting their time.

The edit speaks to the lasting effects of the history of the show, not just a piece of entertainment. The Wikipedia articles frequently get accused of this. Yet we discard the valuable achievements beyond entertainment that the show made, and are encyclopedic in nature.

This is the additon that was reverted:

Revision as of 18:12, 2014 October 2

The show's success was seen as a great asset for Commodore Business Machines, the makers of the Amiga computer, Adobe and it’s innovative compositing software, After Effects and for NewTek, the company which made the Video Toaster card and its accompanying 3-D animation program, Lightwave 3D. On the strength of Babylon 5, Lightwave 3D and After Effects would be employed on other shows, eventually becoming industry standards.