User:Andrewcrawford/mydraft

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This page is to allow me to make drafts of what i want to ad to wikipedia before it is copy edited to make it better english and grammar.

=Rangers F.C. Request for comment= This Request for Comment is not for Wikipedia to determine if the club is truly dead or will truly alive with the new company. It is to get consensus on what to do with the articles based upon sources that are non-biased and does not have POV of any editors so is neutral in how it represents the situation. There is a potential that some editors on both side of the argument have an agenda to either not accept what the sources say and push their own POV either to be bitter or not wanting to accept the truth. So please make a informed decision based on the sources and hopefully get a resolution to this dispute.

Brief Summary
The Rangers Football Club entered liquidation proceedings on the 14th June 2012 when a CVA was formally rejected. However since then there have been numerous problems with the article with regards to whether the club is separate from the company or the club and the company are the same. There was consensus not long after this dispute started to keep it as one article until the issue was clearer because it is fast changing situation with contradicting sources. However an editor decided to create the article Newco Rangers so now we have two articles, and because of POV pushing on both sides a consensus on whether it should be one article or two can not be reached.

Club history
Rangers F.C. was founded in 1872 and formed in 1873 as a football club. In 1899 a limited company was formed called Rangers F.C. Ltd and this runs the business Rangers F.C. (No where can I find it says where the club became the company or the company was definitely a holding company of Rangers F.C.). Then in 1994, the limited company became a PLC so renamed itself Rangers F.C. PLC. On 14th February 2012 Rangers F.C. went into administration owing debts up to potential 134 million pounds. After weeks had passed the players agreed a temporary salary cut with minimum releases clauses put into there contract. The bidding process for the club was opened up and after a few months a proffered bidder called Bill Miller was chosen. He then decided to drop his bid and the bidding restarted. After a length time Charles Green consortium won the bidding and then put forward a CVA for the club to exit administration. This was rejected on 14th June 2012 with HMRC saying the route of liquidation would provide the best form of return for creditors, They said the club would continue but under a different company structure.

Article history
Since the club went into administration, there have been many different sources saying the club is liquidated, and many sources saying the holding company Rangers F.C. PLC are getting liquidated and the club transferred to Charles Green as what is refereed to as Newco Rangers or Rangers Newco. It was decided after the 14th of June 2012 on the Rangers F.C. talk page that there was conflicting sources and it was not clear if Charles Green had started a new club or took over the old club. However an editor decided to create a new article called The Rangers Football Club Ltd against the consensus. This then went to AFD and was decided to keep it. That article had indefinite semi protection put on it because of persistent vandalism. The article itself if it deemed an article about the new club is fine in the way it is structured, but the name was contested so consensus agreed to move it to Newco Rangers. The Rangers F.C article went into full protection for 10 days not long after the most recent consensus, as rival fans and Rangers fans contested how the article should be written. It spirled into content dispute with no hope of getting a consensus on it. Since the removal of the full protection, the content dispute restarted and now the page has been full protected again. This dispute has been moving through the dispute resolution procedures but as yet has not got a consensus on how to deal with this. The major problems are: first, should there be one article or two, and secondly do we class the club as alive or dead and a new club replaced it?

Main Arguments

 * Firstly the main arguments revolve around how other clubs in the same situation have come out of this type of situation, such as Leeds Utd which has one article, Halfix AFC having two articles. But since both sides of the argument are POV pushing and either discrediting the opposite side sources and arguments then it just goes around and around in circles.
 * Secondly the reason for the disagreement relates to firstly to whether there is a potential biased towards Rangers by opposing team fans within Scotland and by Rangers FC fans who might not want to accept the club has died. Neither side is willing to back down because Rangers fans do not want rival fans mocking them, and rival fans are making the most of the situation.
 * Thirdly reliable sources are contradicting each other: some say the club is alive and some say the club is dead, in few cases within the same news article it says both.
 * Fourthly news sources is also dependent on the journalist view of the situation which can be different for each journalist. Also depending on there bias ie if they are a rangers supporter there more likely to say same club but if a rival supporter more likely to say new club
 * Fifthly the citations from the sources can be presented in different ways depending on the wikipedia editor's perspective and their way of reading a source.
 * Sixthly references in news sources etc that say Oldco and Newco being taking to be Old Club and New Club, but as some sources have said Newco means New Company, and Oldco means Old Company thus allowing them a easier way to distinguished between the two companies but not necessarily the club or clubs.

Articles that will need altered depending on the outcome of this dispute
All the below articles are in dispute allow not having content wars, they are in dispute because depending on the consensus of whether it is new club or the same club affect what happens to the pages and templates below.

Rangers Supporters' Trust

There could be many more articles relating to rangers in some way that might be affected in some way depending on the consensus.

There is also other articles relating to Scotland or Scottish football that are affect for example

Not directly related but affected
Kernkraft 400 Famine Song

Current Dispute resolution
The dispute started on the Rangers F.C. talk page and since then discussions at 40 and 50 topics and here, here, here, here, here, here, here, on the topic. Also after the creating of the Newco Rangers page discussion has started at talk also here to For various users involved in the dispute, talk pages: see below for users involved, some editors have archiving set-up and some discussion might be in archives. After the creating of the new page The rangers football club Ltd renamed to newco rangers now. There was a AFD and the result was keep. The dispute then went to wikiproject football to get wider non biased view on the situation several times: here, here, here, here, here Each time no editor is willing to get involved in this sensitive topic. There was also a indirect one here Then the dispute went to the dispute resolution noticeboard however no volunteers where willing to help mediate the situation and no consensus was reached again. The next stage was to be informal mediation but this has closed. It has also went to the administrators noticeboard, administrators noticeboard which led to a new AFD the result was no consensus. An attempt to make a comprise is being tried with the sandbox version but no guarantees it will be accepted by both sides of the argument. However no agreement can be reached on this.

Users involved in the dispute
Not all users listed have been heavily involved but for fairness i have listed all those who have contributed to any of the discussions in the dispute.

As such i would understand less involved users not wanting to take part or to be directly involved in this disputer and to strike there names out but it clear they had a part in it, it be nice if the one heavily involved where not to take themselves out.

This list does not include editors either register or ip who have edited the articles but only those who have spoke on talk pages.

This list only includes editors that have been involved in the Rangers F.C. talk page, Newco Rangers F.C. talk page, AFD's, wikiproject and Dispute resolution noticeboard, it does not include editors who have been using the talk pages of all the other pages involved which could make the list grow even more.

Club liquidated or Club/Company are the same
"June 14 - Charles Green completes purchase of Rangers assets and business following the club's liquidation, hours after a consortium led by former manager Walter Smith makes a late bid." "Both Steven and I and our agent fought hard with administrators during negotiations to insert clauses that offered protection to staff and players at the club. I am extremely proud of the actions we took but I am disappointed and angry that Rangers Football Club no longer exists in its original form." "Green needs seven other clubs as well as the soon-to-be liquidated Rangers to vote in his favour at a meeting next Wednesday and, unless there is a U-turn from at least one chairman, there will be no top-flight football at Ibrox next season." says club is liquidated "The decision means the troubled club will now be liquidated with prospective owner Charles Green hoping to confirm his newco which will be known as 'The Rangers Football Club'." "Rangers duo Naismith and Whittaker reject contract transfer to new company Whittaker remarked that: We owe no loyalty to the new club, there is no history there for us." " The consortium led by Charles Green believe the players' contracts should transfer from the old, soon-to-be liquidated Rangers. " "Meanwhile, manager Ally McCoist says Andy Little and Salim Kerkar have been offered new contracts at Rangers. Both players' deals to the old Rangers expired this summer and McCoist hopes the pair will sign on with the relaunched Ibrox club." "Green's Sevco consortium bought Rangers' assets after the club was consigned to liquidation with debts that could reach £135million, mostly to the taxpayer." "The clauses were inserted amid speculation over the Glasgow pair moving to England or into a European league but they have proved costly after Rangers went into liquidation last month." "Charles Green's Sevco consortium had their application to replace the old liquidated Rangers in the Scottish Premier League rejected last week." "The demise of Rangers hasn’t quite sunk in yet, not if the Scottish media is to be believed - apparently it is they who are still going strong and Scottish football that is on life support.

The Glasgow giant ceased to exist as an entity several weeks ago, yet reading the columns of several Scottish newspapers and listening to the multitude of pundits on the TV and radio, one could be forgiven for thinking that Rangers are still alive and breathing."  "Rangers, who are being relaunched by a new company after the former incarnation could not be saved from liquidation, had their application to replace the old Ibrox club in the Scottish Premier League formally rejected on Wednesday."   "The issue of where to place Rangers originated when the club could not be saved from liquidation and was relaunched by a new company."   "However, the club's recent liquidation has complicated the process, with the newco club having not yet registered as a member of the SFA. "  "We owe no loyalty to the new club. There is no history there for us."  "The club, which dates back to 1872, will now be wound up by liquidators BDO after a thorough investigation into its financial affairs over the past few years."   "The issue of where to place Rangers originated when the club could not be saved from liquidation and was relaunched by a new company."   "THE SPL have issued placement money to each club for last season – with the exception of soon-to-be-liquidated Rangers."   "The SPL have issued the placement money each club is entitled to for last season – with the exception of soon-to-be-liquidated Rangers."   "The Ibrox side went into administration in February after Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs lodged a petition over the non-payment of about £9 million PAYE and VAT since Craig Whyte's 2011 takeover. It later emerged the club's liabilities could total as much as £135 million. A CVA with creditors was later turned down by HMRC - consigning the club to liquidation."  "But, following Rangers’ liquidation and demotion to SFL Division Three, the legendary Glasgow fixture won’t happen until the 2015 season at the EARLIEST — unless the rivals meet in the cup."   "With the old Rangers heading for liquidation, the Scottish Premier League clubs rejected an application for membership from the consortium led by Green that bought the club's assets."   "The consortium in charge of the new Rangers is threatening legal action against the administrator who sold them the old club's assets. ... Sevco was denied a place in the Scottish Premier League and the fresh dispute comes in the middle of negotiations with the Scottish Football Association for a membership that would allow the new club to start life in Division Three. ... Duff and Phelps, which remains in charge of the old Rangers until it goes into liquidation, refuted the allegations."  "Charles Green's consortium is looking to persuade the SFA to shelve a transfer ban imposed on the old Rangers before it headed for liquidation. ... The new Rangers need the membership so they can start life in Division Three."  "And the former Sheffield United chief executive will seek a deal over repayment of transfer fees and other debts owed to clubs by the soon-to-be-liquidated Rangers. Green said: Part of the conditions for the newco to meet to satisfy SFA membership is that there are certain old club debts to European clubs."  "Brown gave up his job as a Rangers scout to lead takeover attempts after the consortium led by former Sheffield United chief executive Charles Green bought Rangers' assets for £5.5m after the failure to avoid liquidation."   This is a video you will have to watch it, at around the beginning of the video it states it as a new club "The new rangers club have been admitted into third division"   "Sevco Scotland, which now owns Rangers' assets after the old club headed for liquidation, needs the membership to play in Division Three this season."   "The players' union, PFA Scotland, had argued that the players were free agents because the old Rangers was heading for liquidation and the players had refused to have their registration switched to the new company." "The players had refused to have their registrations transferred from the old Rangers, as it headed for liquidation, to Charles Green's Sevco consortium, which is now due to start life in Division Three." "But the clubs rejected the proposal, saying that sporting integrity was better served by the new club, formed as the old one could not be saved from liquidation, starting in the bottom tier."

Club not liquidated
"Season ticket income looks vital if he's to avoid pitching the club back into administration. So Charles Green now has control of the assets, but faces hostility from his customers." "the club's assets have been transferred to a new company while Rangers Football Club plc is liquidated. " "specifically the section that states; ISSUE ONE: THE CRITERIA FOR DETERMINING WHETHER TUPE APPLY 2. It is now clearly established that, in order to decide whether TUPE apply to a particular transaction, it is necessary to ask two questions: 2.1 does the function which is being transferred constitute an economic entity? 2.2 will that entity retain its identity after the transfer? As TUPE has already been established to apply in the case of Rangers then they must have satisfied the courts already that they are the same economic entity as before and they have therefore retained their economic identity." "Q. After the liquidation/death of Rangers FC PLC and the creation of a brand new legal entity, when can/does the new company become a new club? A. As of yesterday, the new company operates the club. Of course, it does not yet have membership of either the SPL or SFL, which is an essential rquirement for any professional football club." "the history of the club remains with the club, so the club moves from Rangers Plc into the new company and all of the titles and 140-year history will remain with the club."

"Rangers' parent company is being liquidated, meaning the new owners need to win the approval of seven other clubs in the 12-team SPL if they are to maintain their status." "The Edinburgh club are still owed £800,000 from Rangers for the player." "The issue is complicated by uncertainty over Scottish Football Association action, with an appeal hearing due against Rangers before Green bought the club's assets and business.'There are sanctions that could withdraw the club's ability to play,' Green said. 'Part of my job is to work through the issues and make sure we're playing football and we're playing football at Ibrox for many years to come.'" " And it stresses that either way, the sale goes on and Rangers, the team, does too." "We are acutely aware that events at our club, brought about by people who are no longer here, have triggered a crisis in Scottish football, he said. Ally McCoist, the staff and players have nothing to apologise for But the club needs to make an apology. It is only right that someone expresses our sorrow and regret. the old company was consigned to liquidation " "Meanwhile, manager Ally McCoist says Andy Little and Salim Kerkar have been offered new contracts at Rangers. Both players' deals to the old Rangers expired this summer and McCoist hopes the pair will sign on with the relaunched Ibrox club." "Rangers FC plc entered administration in February owing up to £134m to unsecured creditors. The company will eventually be liquidated and has been replaced by a new company run by Charles Green." "Irrespective of what’s decided by the two league bodies in the coming week, the Tribunal, having been handed the case back by the Court of Session on appeal from Rangers, must find an alternative to their original sanction of a one-year transfer ban.

The options likely to be considered are suspension and termination of membership.

Suspension leaves no avenue within the Scottish game for appeal – the only option left for Green would be to lobby the Court of Arbitration in Sport.

But termination of membership would allow newco Rangers an appeal to the SFA Board – who could arrive at a different determination again from either the Judicial Panel or the Appellate Tribunal."  "The re-formed Ibrox club will now apply to play in the Scottish Football League but it remains unclear which division they will enter.

The company will eventually be liquidated and has been replaced by a new company run by Charles Green."  "John Fleck has become the ninth player to object to his contract switching to the new Rangers, with midfielder Jamie Ness also agreeing a move elsewhere – although Kyle Hutton has become the third player to announce he will stay on at the stricken club.

The new Rangers are facing the prospect of being refused entry to the SPL and could be playing in Division One - or even starting over again in the Third Division - should they be forced to apply to the Scottish Football League."  "Charles Green's consortium has since started the process of relaunching the club under the banner of a new company with Rangers FC plc heading for liquidation."   "Rangers FC plc entered administration in February owing up to £134m to unsecured creditors. The company will eventually be liquidated and has been replaced by a new company."  "Many supporters questioned Green’s reasons for buying the stricken club for £5.5million and some have backed consortiums fronted by Walter Smith and John Brown. But a stockbroker is now due to arrive from London next week to help the club launch a share issue."  "The transfer of the SFA membership from soon-to-be-liquidated Rangers to Green's newco could take place at the same time as a decision is made over which league the club will play in."   "However, in this case, the issue is muddied by Rangers FC plc being consigned to liquidation and the newco Rangers having not yet become members of the SFA."   "Meanwhile, Rangers chief executive Charles Green said the 140-year-old club was "deeply disappointed" with the result of the vote and will be applying to join the Scottish Football League - and he will be hoping Regan's plea that they be allowed to join Division One doesn't fall on deaf ears. ... 'If our application were to be accepted, Rangers will play in whichever division the SFL sees fit and we will move forward from there,' said Green, who purchased the club's assets in a 5.5 million pound deal after Rangers went bankrupt in February. ...

Failure to secure agreement with tax authorities led to Green launching a takeover and establishing a new company."  "The old Rangers is currently in administration and will be liquidated shortly. Charles Green transferred the assets to his newco Gers after buying the club for £5.5million. Di Stefano wrote: “I’m aware the assets of the company were sold to Charles Green, but I have spoken with the registrar at Companies House that confirms The Rangers Football Club Plc is a company still ‘only in administration’ and is capable of acquisition, transfer and/or assignment."  "The Light Blues have been at loggerheads with the governing body since their judicial panel imposed a year-long transfer ban because of the way previous owner Craig Whyte ran the club. ... New Rangers owner Charles Green, has already admitted the club made a mistake turning to the courts and he is keen to defuse the situation and for his club to move forward."  "A sweetener of £1m has already been negotiated as the TV companies see an appeal in the novelty of covering Ally McCoist’s new-look squad in a lower league for the first time in their 140-year history."   "And the Teesside supremo insists he was watching the same club on both occasions despite being the man forced to put Boro into liquidation to form a new company as part of his 1986 rescue package. That’s why Gibson has told Rangers fans the club’s 140-year history will live on despite would-be owner Charles Green set to go down the dreaded newco when a CVA is officially rejected at today’s meeting of creditors at Ibrox."  "It says In an asset purchase, all of the good and valuable assets (records, marks, names, trophies, players, staff, history) are preserved and separated from the bad and harmful liabilities (tax bills, bad contracts, creditors), which have put the club into administration and which act to force the entirety into liquidation. By putting all of the assets into a different corporate structure, the assets are in fact rescued from liquidation. Such a transaction would be very similar to the one that occurred at Leeds United in 2007, which simultaneously rescued that club, maintained its proud history and allowed the club to shed its debt burdens so that it could have the opportunity for future success."  "Duff and Phelps, appointed by the Court of Session on February 14, have broken down all the "asset realisations", the majority of which relate to their sale of the Ibrox club to Sevco Scotland Limited."   "A FIFA spokesperson said: 'At the time of writing, FIFA does not appear to have been approached by any association with respect to the international clearance of any particular player currently registered with Rangers FC.'"   "Duff and Phelps have broken down all the “asset realisations” of the deal — the majority of which relate to their sale of the Ibrox club to Sevco Scotland Limited." "Regan argued the 140-year-old Rangers, Scottish football's most successful club, should be dropped just one league to the First Division." "The Scottish Football Association will consider what, if any, punishments to impose on Rangers before granting membership to the new company." "In the email, Mr Regan also makes it clear that newco Rangers will still be responsible for any sanctions imposed because the wrongdoing of previous regimes." "Under new Scottish FA rules, it is a requirement of the outgoing club directors to conduct a full investigation under the fit and proper guidelines. Given Rangers FC's insolvency event, it has been incumbent on the administrators, Duff and Phelps, to carry out the necessary checks on the proposed new directors, as well as our own investigations." "It is a requirement of the outgoing club directors to conduct a full investigation under the fit and proper guidelines.

Given Rangers FC’s insolvency event, it has been incumbent on the administrators, Duff and Phelps, to carry out the necessary checks on the proposed new directors, as well as our own investigations."  "We have asked Sevco to provide further supplementary information and will consider that information this week. Under new Scottish FA rules, it is a requirement of the outgoing club directors to conduct a full investigation under the fit and proper guidelines. Given Rangers FC's insolvency event, it has been incumbent on the administrators, Duff and Phelps, to carry out the necessary checks on the proposed new directors, as well as our own investigations."  "These are old co debts that newco has got to face up to"   "Rangers are due to be re-launched in the Ramsden's Cup first round against Brechin at Glebe Park on July 28 but Green will need to come to an agreement with the SFA beforehand and talks will continue on Tuesday. ... Rangers successfully overturned the 12-month transfer embargo in the Court of Session before Green's Sevco Scotland bought their assets when they were consigned to liquidation."  "The Scottish FA however say they will be able to use the oldco’s financial documentation as a new membership is not being requested. ... Under Article 14.1, Sevco Scotland are requesting the transfer of the existing membership of Oldco. This is different to an application for a new membership, which generally requires four years of financial statements."  "A summarised receipts and payments account for the period of this report is shown at Appendix 2. This shows an estate balance of £6,300,287 as at 29 June 2012, including an amount of £5,500,000 received from Sevco in relation to its acquisition of the business, history and assets of the Company (see Section 5 for additional details in relation to the sale process)."  "Should Sevco refuse to meet the Scottish FA’s demands, it will be forced to apply for a completely new membership not tied to the former club."  "The killer section of the document states: EBT Sanctions means (i) the withdrawal of Rangers FC, RFC and Sevco of the award and status of Champion Club (as defined in the SPL rules) of the Scottish Premier League for each and all of seasons 2002/3, 2004/5, 2008/9, 2009/10 and 2010/11: (ii)The withdrawal from Rangers FC, RFC and Sevco of the award and status of winner of the Scottish Cup for each and all of seasons 2001/2, 2002/3, 2007/8, and 2008/9."  "Doncaster admits to being “baffled” that in this country such a distinction is drawn between Rangers exiting administration through a company voluntary arrangement [CVA], as prospective new owner Charles Green will attempt in the coming weeks, and doing so by moving the assets to a new company [newco] as the old one sinks because of debt, as he probably will be forced to do to effect a successful purchase. Doncaster simply does not accept that morality and sporting integrity are served very differently by throwing yourself at the mercy of your creditors, as in a CVA, or simply walking away from them, as in the newco route. A newco, he says, could raise more money for creditors than a CVA. He could give no examples where this had ever occurred in football. However, the SPL chief executive did provide examples from England, with the cases of Luton, Bournemouth and Rotherham, where clubs have failed to obtain a CVA, set up a newco, and retained their same league status, but with a points penalty – as will be one of the new financial fair play proposals clubs will have a third go at voting on come 30 May.

... "Whenever I speak to people about the distinction between a CVA and a newco what I keep being told is that it’s simply wrong that any club should be able to create a newco and shed debt. As if a CVA doesn’t lead to the shedding of debt. Administration is the protection the court gives you when you can’t pay your debts. There are two ways out of that; one is a newco, one is a CVA. Of the six administrations which have happened down south in recent years two went with a CVA and a newco, Palace and Plymouth, and there were four where there was no CVA and a newco. “The distinction between the two is relatively fine. To draw such a huge distinction is just wrong. When Livingston were relegated to Division Three did they cease to exist and start again? Of course they didn’t. Leeds are the same. Every single club which has had an insolvency event has either continued as a football club or has ceased to exist. I’m not aware of any club which sort of started again. Of course it’s not okay to waive £90 million of debt, of course it’s not. But it happens. In football as in business."  "Things may change for a while thanks to recent events but this rivalry has always been one of the classics in club football."   "Rangers "newco" have been relegated to the Third Division of the Scottish Football League after the organisation's member clubs voted on the fate of the former SPL giants."   "The League Cup trophy has returned to Ibrox a record 27 times since the competition’s formation in the 1946/47 season. Celtic have won on 14 occasions, followed by Aberdeen (five), Hearts (four), Hibernian, Dundee, East Fife (three) and six other winners."  "The newco club have been admitted into the Third Division for the upcoming season and enter the League Cup at the first round stage for the first time since 1978."   "The newco club have been admitted into the Third Division for the upcoming season although they are still waiting to discover if they will be granted SFA membership to compete. If membership is granted then the club will enter the League Cup at the first-round stage for the first time since 1978."  "Rangers will face Irn-Bru Second Division side East Fife in the first round of the Scottish Communities League Cup. The newco club have been admitted into the Third Division for the upcoming season and enter the League Cup at the first-round stage for the first time since 1978."  "We’ve already had a 10-point deduction from the SPL, lost our Champions League place for finishing second last season, had a £160,000 fine, been refused entry to the SPL, been relegated to Division Three and lost most of our squad."   "HMRC had agreed to consider a CVA proposal along with all other options in the case of Rangers but having taken into consideration the extent of funds which will be made available to creditors through the CVA option, they have decided that it is not acceptable given The Rangers Football Club plc's level of indebtedness to HMRC. ... HMRC has taken the view that the public interest will be better served with the liquidation of The Rangers Football Club plc as a corporate entity. The Club will continue to operate as it has always done but within a new company structure."  "Rangers, who have been relaunched by Green's Sevco Scotland consortium after the company that formerly ran the club headed for liquidation, also agreed to incur penalties in order to acquire the old Rangers' licence to play competitive matches."   "Little was contracted to Rangers before the club was relaunched by a new company but he too was out of contract."

Club liquidated, Club/Company the same and the club lives on
This section of sources are quite interesting because they refer to it being a new club and refer to it as just the company is liquidated, the one part saying the club is alive or dead is in one set of quotes " " and the other part saying the opposite is within other quotes " "after the first set

"Rangers chief executive Charles Green says he will not challenge the vote by the Scottish Football League to place his new club in Division Three." "Green's Sevco consortium had been forced to apply for entry to the SFL after Scottish Premier League clubs voted against the new Rangers being admitted to the top flight with the old company destined for liquidation." "Rangers’ liquidation and reformation as a newco has ended up with them being kicked out of the SPL." "It is a requirement of the outgoing club directors to conduct a full investigation under the fit and proper guidelines.

Given Rangers FC’s insolvency event, it has been incumbent on the administrators, Duff and Phelps, to carry out the necessary checks on the proposed new directors, as well as our own investigations." "Green might have to accept the 12-month transfer ban handed to Rangers before they were consigned to liquidation. ... And the former Sheffield United chief executive will seek a deal over repayment of transfer fees and other debts owed to clubs by the soon-to-be-liquidated Rangers."  "Under new Scottish FA rules, it is a requirement of the outgoing club directors to conduct a full investigation under the fit and proper guidelines. Given Rangers FC's insolvency event, it has been incumbent on the administrators, Duff and Phelps, to carry out the necessary checks on the proposed new directors, as well as our own investigations." "Green might have to accept the 12-month transfer ban handed to Rangers before they were consigned to liquidation."  "Rangers are due to be re-launched in the Ramsden's Cup first round against Brechin at Glebe Park on July 28 but Green will need to come to an agreement with the SFA beforehand and talks will continue on Tuesday." "Rangers successfully overturned the 12-month transfer embargo in the Court of Session before Green's Sevco Scotland bought their assets when they were consigned to liquidation."   "Rangers are due to be re-launched in the Ramsden's Cup first round against Brechin at Glebe Park on July 28 but Green will need to come to an agreement with the SFA beforehand and talks will continue on Tuesday." "Rangers successfully overturned the 12-month transfer embargo in the Court of Session before Green's Sevco Scotland bought their assets when they were consigned to liquidation." "Rangers are due to be re-launched in the Ramsden's Cup first round against Brechin at Glebe Park on July 28 but Green will need to come to an agreement with the SFA beforehand and talks will continue on Tuesday." "Rangers successfully overturned the 12-month transfer embargo in the Court of Session before Green's Sevco Scotland bought their assets when they were consigned to liquidation." "However, any deal cannot be finalised until the Scottish FA grants membership to the new club" "It is understood the SFA wants the newco club to accept the 12-month transfer embargo handed out to the old company for bringing the game into disrepute." "Thus Rangers, winners of more domestic league titles than any other club in world football, will kick off the new season on 28 July in the Ramsdens Cup, against Brechin City. As this is an away tie for Rangers, they will be visiting a ground, Glebe Park, that holds 3,960 souls and has a nice wee hedge running around part of its perimeter." "Rangers' demise may also allow Scottish football to breathe a little more by providing opportunities to our native young talent." "Rangers have indicated that they will accept a 12-month embargo and £160,000 fine imposed by the Scottish Football Association for bringing the game into disrepute during former owner Craig Whyte's time in control and that they will pay outstanding football debts." "In a strongly-worded statement, McCoist criticised the SFA for releasing a statement on Friday night in which the governing body stated broad agreement had been reached for the transfer of membership between the old club and the new one, which included accepting a 12-month transfer embargo that would start after the completion of this current transfer window." "McCoist was one of those representing Sevco Scotland – the consortium that bought the assets of Rangers as that company headed into liquidation – in the talks with the SFA over the terms of the membership transfer."

Charles Green bought the club from Craig Whyte
"Mr Green completed his purchase of the 140-year-old club's assets with £5.5 million, which is believed to be in the form of a loan that the club repays, having paid just £2 for Craig Whyte's shares." "Green confirmed he had given Whyte £1 – the same value paid – for his 85% stake in Rangers, and said: 'I gave him a pound out of my own pocket too, so he has made a 100% profit.'" "Whyte has agreed to sell his 85 per cent shareholding in Rangers for £2 to Charles Green, who is leading the consortium in place to take control of the club." "Charles Green’s consortium bought the club’s assets for £5.5million two weeks ago, buying out Whyte for a nominal £2."

Other Sources
These sources do not say one way or the other but they give a insight potential to the situation so giving more background information. Just a general sources that does not say one way or the other. Says Rangers Football Club in administration then says "The Company" and "The Club" it does not state whether the club and the company are the same or seperate. It also does not clarify the situation now that liquidation procures have begun. "We’re the original Old Firm, Queen’s Park and Rangers. And now the two Glasgow teams meet again. It has been a while since we met." "The newco club are still waiting to discover if they will be granted Scottish FA membership" "If found guilty, the Ibrox club could be stripped of the leagues they won in 2003, 2005, 2009, 2010 and 2011 as well as their Scottish Cup triumphs of 2002, 2003, 2008 and 2009." "Duff and Phelps, administrators of The Rangers Football Club plc (in administration) issued the following statement today. We have written to all shareholders of The Rangers Football Club plc (in administration) to provide notice of a general meeting of the Company to be held at Ibrox Stadium on July 31. The resolution to be put forward at that meeting is to change the name of the Company to RFC 2012 plc and there will be no other business on the day" 

Important sources possible hold more weight
These sources might hold more weight because they are from people who deal with business transactions and liquidation all the time or the revelent football authorities who would know the situation better. This is a video you have to watch it to see what it says, it is approx 2 minutes in "The administrator says the club is sold to the newco and the history transfer to the newco" "Q. After the liquidation/death of Rangers FC PLC and the creation of a brand new legal entity, when can/does the new company become a new club? A. As of yesterday, the new company operates the club. Of course, it does not yet have membership of either the SPL or SFL, which is an essential rquirement for any professional football club." " This is a petition for judicial review by the Rangers Football Club plc, a company presently in administration. That company presently operates Rangers Football Club (to whom I shall refer as "Rangers"). Rangers are members of the Scottish Football Association ("the SFA"), and are bound by the Articles of the SFA and by the Judicial Panel Protocol which sets out the disciplinary rules relating to the conduct of members of the SFA and the conduct of disciplinary proceedings to enforce such rules. " This is a video you have to watch it to see what it says, it is approx 30 seconds in "Neil Doncaster he is asked why the SPL will help a club that isn't a member of the SPL to facilitate its entry into Division three. He states that it is an existing club if not a new company." "Sevco Scotland Ltd bought Rangers Football Club PLC’s share in the SPL and membership of the Scottish FA as part of their acquisition of assets. Under Article 14.1, Sevco Scotland are requesting the transfer of the existing membership of Oldco. This is different to an application for a new membership, which generally requires four years of financial statements. ... The Scottish FA has received private and confidential documentation from Sevco Scotland Ltd relating to the above. We have asked Sevco to provide further supplementary information and will consider that information this week. ... Under new Scottish FA rules, it is a requirement of the outgoing club directors to conduct a full investigation under the Fit and Proper Guidelines. Given Rangers FC’s insolvency event, it has been incumbent on the administrators, Duff and Phelps, to carry out the necessary checks on the proposed new directors, as well as our own investigations." "" "Moreover the liquidation route does not prejudice the proposed sale of the club" "Founded:1873" "We are pleased to confirm that agreement has been reached on all outstanding points relating to the transfer of the Scottish FA membership between Rangers FC (In Administration), and Sevco Scotland Ltd, who will be the new owners of The Rangers Football Club."

Rangers F.C. founding year
"Founded 1872" "Founded: 1873" "FOUR young men shared a dream - to start a football club. They had no money, no kit - not even a ball. Yet from such humble beginnings emerged the most famous of all Scottish football clubs - Rangers FC. None of those four men could have foreseen what was to happen when they met in 1872. ... Despite this promising start, as every fan knows the official founding of the club did not take place until the following year. ...

The date of 1873 is recognised because that was the year when the club had their first annual meeting and officers were elected. Rangers were becoming businesslike."  "Founded: February 1872"

Questions
Please respond to each question with the highlight response, before answering read the sources above and make a decision based on the sources and not your emotions, Please do not disregard sources that might not meet your POV be neutral and make the decision based on what the sources say.

This request for comment will be closed by neutral non-involved editor approx 1 month after starting, if replieis are still coming near the end date the request for comment will be extended. Relaunched 2012 or just 1872? Founded 1873 or 1873?
 * 1) Do reliable sources confirm Rangers F.C. PLC regardless if you see it as club and company or just a company are getting liquidated?
 * 2) Do reliable sources state Rangers F.C. PLC is the company that runs the club or company is the club?
 * 3) Is the Rangers F.C. article is about the club or the company Rangers F.C. PLC?
 * 4) Is the Newco Rangers article is about the club or the company Sevco Scotland LTD?
 * 5) Do reliable sources state Sevco Scotland has bought the club transferring all assets including history to new company leaving old company to be liquidated?
 * 6) Do reliable sources confirm Sevco Scotland is the new club to replace Rangers F.C. - current article Newco Rangers?
 * 7) Do reliable sources confirm Rangers history is transferred to the new club if it is deemed a new club?
 * 8) Who does reliable sources state as the owner of the current article Rangers F.C.?
 * 9) Should the Rangers F.C. article be presented in past or present tense.?
 * 10) If consensus is for one article should the founding date say 1872
 * 1) Do reliable sources confirm Rangers F.C. founding date as 1872 or 1873?
 * 2) If the above question is 1873 should it be labelled as Formed 1872

Question 1
Do reliable sources state Rangers F.C. PLC is the company that runs the club or company is the club?

Please respond with agree or disagree, please bold your response using answer, with short summary and source or sources enclosing links with [], please sign your response, for general discussion see below

Question 2
Do reliable sources state Rangers F.C. PLC is the company that runs the club or company is the club?

Please respond with company or club, please bold your response using answer, with short summary and source or sources enclosing links with [], please sign your response, for general discussion see below

Question 3
Is the Rangers F.C. article is about the club or the company Rangers F.C. PLC?

Please respond if the current wikipedia article Rangers F.C. is about the club or about the company, please bold your response using answer, please bold your response using answer , if it is about the company we need to consider moving the article. Respond with either Club or Company

Question 4
Is the Newco Rangers article is about the club or the company Sevco Scotland LTD?

Please respond if the current wikipedia article Newco Rangers is about a potential new club or about the company, please bold your response using answer, if it is about the company we need to consider moving the article. Respond with either Club or Company

Question 5
Sevco Scotland has bought the club transferring all assets including history to new company leaving old company to be liquidated

Please respond with agree or disagree, please bold your response using answer, with short summary and source or sources enclosing links with [], please sign your response, for general discussion see below

Question 6
Sevco Scotland is the new club to replace Rangers F.C. - current article Newco Rangers

Please respond with agree or disagree, please bold your response using answer, with short summary and source or sources enclosing links with [], please sign your response, for general discussion see below

Question 7
Rangers history is transferred to the new club if it is deemed a new club.

Please respond with agree or disagree, please bold your response using answer, with short summary and source or sources enclosing links with [], please sign your response, for general discussion see below

Question 8
Who is the owner of the current article Rangers F.C.

Please respond with Craig Whyte or Charles Green, please bold your response using answer, with short summary and source or sources enclosing links with [], please sign your response, for general discussion see below

Question 9
Should the Rangers F.C. article be presented in past or present tense.

Please respond with past or present, please bold your response using answer, with short summary and source or sources enclosing links with [], please sign your response, for general discussion see below

Question 10
If consensus is for one article should the founding date say 1872 Relaunched 2012 or just 1872

Please respond with 1872 or '''1872 Relaunched 2012, please bold your response using answer''', with short summary and source or sources enclosing links with [], please sign your response, for general discussion see below

Question 11
On the Rangers F.C. articles should the founding date be 1872 or 1873

Please respond with 1872 or 1873, please bold your response using answer, with short summary and source or sources enclosing links with [], please sign your response, for general discussion see below

Question 12
If the above question is 1873 should it be labelled as Formed 1872 Founded 1873 or 1873

Please respond with '''Formed 1872 Founded 1873 or 1873, please bold your response using answer''', with short summary and source or sources enclosing links with [], please sign your response, for general discussion see below

Comments about the situation no discussion
Post any comments you have about the situation here with examples of why you think what you do and sources. No discussion or responses to comments please.

General Discussion
Any discussion regarding the situation here so not to clutter the above with arguments.
 * . I am not involved in this at all and have not read the discussion much. Could we just put a statement somewhere that 'the future of the club is uncertain at this time' type thing? We are not in a hurry and this may save further dispute until it is known for sure.--Canoe1967 (talk) 00:34, 22 July 2012 (UTC)