User:Antidiskriminator/Sandbox/Old sandbox

My sandbox

 * My sandbox User:Antidiskriminator/Sandbox1
 * My sandbox User:Antidiskriminator/Sandbox2
 * My sandbox User:Antidiskriminator/Sandbox3
 * My sandbox User:Antidiskriminator/Sandbox4
 * My sandbox User:Antidiskriminator/Sandbox5
 * My sandbox User:Antidiskriminator/Sandbox6

Sources for Operation Flash

 * Brigović, state archive archivist - 28 times
 * Balkan Battlegrounds, unknown authors - 22 times
 * The New York Times - 15 times
 * Sekulić, General of RSK - 9 times
 * News reports 29 times - Newspapers published in Croatia - Jutarnji list (2), Nacional (2), Index (2), Slobodna Dalmacija, Narodne Novine - official gazette of the Croatia - 2 times

Bosansko Krajište

 * In the conquered parts of the country, they established the Bosansko krajište or the Hodidjed Vilayet.
 * из документа од 1439. може се превести само као »погранични крајеви Босне«, односно »Босанско крајиште«, познато из повеље од 19. јула 1453.
 * Међутим о стабилизацији турске власти у пограничним прајевима Босне названим »Босанско крајиште«, и то за раздобље послије 1435, па до почетка 1451. свједочи нарочито један дубровачки акт од марта 1439., у коме се у...
 * Bosansko krajiSte (Bosnian frontierland).
 * "Bosansko krajiSte" [The Bosnian Military March], GodiSnjak (Sarajevo) 9 (1957): 177-220
 * Непосредно после освајања територије средњовековне босанске државе 1463-64, Босанско крајиште, које је од 1455. било део пространог Скопског крајишта (1392), постало је део новоформираног Босанског санџака.
 * тога што је цар Иса-бегу Исхаковићу повјерио »1 сопНгп сћ Возпа«, то јест пограничне крајеве Босне односно Босанско крајиште
 * После Косовске битке Паша Јигит-бег је освојио Скопље и основао скопско-босанско крајиште
 * Ragusans referred to sanjakbeys of Herzegovina sanjak as krajišnici until the end of XVI century. Parallel with Ottoman incursions into Bosnia and Herzegovina the term krajište was applied to the territories which were more northern than the territories previously referred to as krajište. Before 1463 Ottomans captured part of Bosnia and organized it krajište (Serhat) with voivode or krajišnik on top of it. Ottomans took this kind of administrative unit from Byzantine Empire.
 * According to Hazim Šabanović Hodidjed in Vrhbosna was captured by Ottomans in 1448. This capture marked the beginning of the real Ottoman rule in the central Bosnia. Šabanović thinks that Bosansko Krajište (Ottomans sometimes referred to it as vilayet Hodidjed) was organized as part of Skopsko krajište in 1451 which had seven villayets recorded during the census in 1455.
 * "Dve godine istirije Bosanskog krajista (1479 i 1480) prema Ibn Kemalu" (Deux annees d'histoire bosniaque selon Ibn Kemal), POF XIV-XV, 33-50.

Draft of the comment
This article was one of my first articles I created on wikipedia (24th of 184 I created until now) more than two years ago and one of the first few articles about the history of Ottoman Empire. I had intention to further expand it and to make it at least DYK article but I realized I should learn more about the Ottoman Empire first. Ottoman borderlands.

The Ottoman Empire had very complicated administrative structure which is not always easy to understand or to define precisely, especially in its period of expansion. When I created this article I realized that Skopsko Krajište, founded in 1392 was expanded further into the Europe. Ottomans organized incursions into other neighboring states (of what is today known as Kosovo, Sandžak, Bosnia and Herzegovina) capturing their territories more or less temporarily or permanently. Therefore Krajište did not have stable permanent territory, hence interim character of this administrative unit. Although Ottoman incursions into Bosnia started before the Skopsko Krajište was established in 1392 it was the earliest year Bosansko Krajište could be possibly connected to. That is why I wrote 1392 as year of its start. I felt I should clarify this taking in consideration unnecessarily harsh comment with accusation for "presenting unreliably-sourced or misinterpreted data".

Draft of the article

The Bosansko krajište or the Bosnian Military March or the Bosnian frontierland was an interim border territory of the Ottoman Empire in Bosnia before the Bosnian Sanjak was established in 1463.

First mentions

Even before the Ottoman controlled territory of Bosnia officially organized the first separate administrative unit (known also as 'Hodidjed vilayet' or 'Vilayet Saray-ovasi') between 1448 and 1451, the parts of Bosnia controlled by Ottoman Empire were referred to as Bosansko Krajište. One Ragusan document of 1439 explains consolidation of Ottoman rule in the Bosansko Krajište after 1435.

Before the establishment of the Ottomans administrative units in Bosnia in 1451 the Ottomans captured temporarily or permanently the following towns of Bosnian Kingdom:


 * 1418 and 1418 — Višegrad and Sokol

Etymology

The Ottoman Empire took the institution of krajište from the Byzantine Empire. The word krajište is taken from krajište, крајиште, referring to an administrative unit on the border of Serbian Empire or Serbian Despotate, when the emperor or despot had not established solid and firm control over such unit, due to raids from hostile neighbouring provinces.

Administration

When Ottomans consolidated their rule in the medieval župa Vrhbosna in 1451 the usual name of the territory which comprised large areas of the present day Macedonia, Kosovo, Raška and part of Bosnia was 'Skopsko-Bosansko Krajište' or only 'Skopsko Krajište'. It was divided on several vilayets, most of them corresponded with captured land of some medieval feudal lord according to whom it was named, or against major stronghold, the biggest settlement or dominant geographical point. The Ottoman controlled territory of Bosnia was established as administrative unit (vilayets) named 'Vilayet Hodidjed' or 'Vilayet Saray-ovasi'.

The first Ottoman census of the territory of the above mentioned vilayets of Bosansko Krajište began in 1451 and lasted for several years.

Miscellaneous

One of the scholars who most studied the Bosansko Krajište was Hazim Šabanović who directly connects Bosansko Krajište with the Ottoman capture of Župa Vrhbosna. He defines Bosansko Krajište as the territory governed by the Ottomans from the beginning of their permanent control over Župa Vrhbosna and its capital Hodidjed in 1448 until the final fall of the Bosnian Kingdom and establishment of the Sanjak of Bosnia in 1463. His view is not fully supported by other scholars who emphasized that he was wrong both in the life span of the Krajište and in its territory. Šabanović's view is not completely accepted because the territory of Bosansko Krajište included parts of other župas captured by the Ottomans before Vilayet Hodidjed was established.


 * In this case there is a possibility that view of Hazim Šabanović is not properly interpreted, taking in consideration data presented in other sources.
 * Hazim Šabanović connects Bosansko Krajište with Ottoman capture of Župa Vrhbosna. He defines Bosansko Krajište as the territory governed by the Ottomans from the beginning of their permanent control over Župa Vrhbosna and its capital Hodidjed until the fall of the Bosnian Kingdom and establishment of the Sanjak of Bosnia in 1463. Šabanović stated that Bosansko Krajište (Ottomans sometimes referred to it as vilayet Hodidjed) was officially organized as villayet of Skopsko krajište in 1451 and surveyed as such in 1455. I am not sure that Šabanović rejects the existence of Bosansko Krajište before 1451. He just mention its official establishment as Vilayet Hodidjed, a part of Skopsko Krajište in 1451. Šabanović's view is not completely accepted because the territory of Bosansko Krajište included parts of other župas already captured by Ottomans.
 * The other sources explain that Skopsko Krajište founded in 1392 was an Ottoman foothold for further Ottoman incursions into Europe and that its governor was also in charge for Bosnia. Some sources even refer to Skopsko and Bosansko Krajište as one unit (Skopsko-Bosansko Krajište). Мany other sources elaborate on Bosansko Krajište before Šabanović's 1451. I.e. sources which explain that one Ragusan document from 1439 elaborates the Ottoman rule in Bosansko Krajište (parts of Bosnia under Ottoman control in period between 1435 and 1451 )
 * Whatever was the territory of this administrative unit or the exact date of its official establishment it is undisputed that its alternative name was "Vilayet Hodidjed" or "Vilayet Saray-ovasi".
 * It is also quite clear that it is covered not only by modern scholarly sources but also with contemporary registers, i.e. register of holdings of Isa Beg Isaković and other lists of Ottoman timariots in this administrative unit. This administrative unit is not only mentioned in Ottoman contemporary sources. Besides above mentioned 1439 Ragusan source Bosansko Krajište is also mentioned in the epistle written by Herceg Stefan in 1453.


 * Based on the above explanation I don't think that the data on "personal web sites" necessarily contradict other more reliable sources.

See also
 * Margrave
 * Marcher Lord
 * Krajina
 * Military Frontier

References

Uprising in Montenegro

 * According to Mihailo Marković the Partisans from Montenegro killed thousands of people.
 * In the end of March 1942 Pijade wrote to Tito and informed him that communists from Nikšić killed 150 Chetniks and burned village Ozrinić.

My contribution ot Pavle Đurišić article
User:Antidiskriminator/Sandbox/Old sandbox/Pavle Đurišić
 * link to Pljevlja book
 * Link NOP i NOV u Sandžaku
 * Source about Chetnik formations
 * Sandžački Bošnjaci
 * Istorija Pljevalja, Opština Pljevlja, 2009
 * Doktorat iz 2017
 * Pod komandom vojvode Pavla Djurisica Uros Zonjic
 * zasto-se-djurisic-povukao-u-bosnu-1944/
 * storičar Kosta Nikolić, napravio je monografiju. Iz njegovog dela o prvoj tajnoj političkoj policiji u komunističkoj Jugoslaviji „Mač revolucije - OZNA u Jugoslaviji 1944 -1946", u izdanju "Službenog glasnika", magazin Tabloid u nekoliko nastavaka donosi najvažnije delove.       Dr Kosta Nikolić
 * “Генерал Михаиловић – Херој и казна“.
 * Okolnosti koje su dovele do pojave Pavla Đurišića
 * http://www.znaci.net/zb/4_3_8_357.pdf RATNI DNEVNIK MAJORA BEHMA IZ ŠTABA DVADESET PRVOG ARMIJSKOG KORPUSA GRUPE ARMIJA ,,E 1
 * Бојан Димитријевић - Војска Недићеве Србије - emphasized on page 327 and 328 that German report issued on 21 September emphasized that CDK was "Ипак сумњив у својој поузданости према немачком Вермахту због Ђуришићевог држања пуног противуречности."

Command posts
[http://www.montenegrina.net/pages/pages1/istorija/cg_u_2_svj_ratu/arso_jovanovic_vojskovodja_s_oreolom_mucenika_i_matovic.html S proljeća 1930. u „Takovski" puk je stigao potporučnik Pavle I. Đurišić, sa završenom 55. klasom Niže škole Vojne akademije. Rođen je 1909. u uglednoj podgoričkoj porodici, ali je, ostavši rano bez oca Ilije, odrastao i školovao se, sve do odlaska u Akademiju, u Beranama, srcu plemena Vasojevića, u domu ujaka Petra Radovića, cijenjenog sudije i ranije četnika iz odreda slavnog vojvode Vuka. Potporučnici Arso i Pavle su se brzo zbližili, osjetivši da, bar za početak drugovanja, imaju dovoljno zajedničkog: bili su vršnjaci, voljeli su oficirski poziv, ambiciozno su izgrađivali vodove kojima su komandovali i bili uzor drugima, u pričama su se često vraćali zavičajnoj Podgorici; bili stasiti i uvijek elegantno odjeveni, u društvu kavaljeri. Tako se njihovih drugovanja u Sarajevu, kako mi je kasnije pričao u Miločeru, sjećao general JNA Velimir Terzić.]
 * Interview of Mr. Kiković


 * photo published during the war

Ranks:
 * 1930 - 1934: infantry lieutenant in the 10th Infantry Regiment in Sarajevo
 * 1934 - 1939: a platoon commander and later a commander of the first company of the 48th Infantry Regiment in Berane
 * 7 April 1939 - April 1941: Intelligence officer responsible for Albania, Plav
 * 13 July 1941 - August 1941: Communist party of Montenegro
 * 20 December 1941 - 14 May 1943 : Commander of Chetniks in central and eastern Montenegro and parts of the Sandžak
 * 14 May 1943 - November 1943: In German prison
 * November 1943 - Spring of 1944: assistant to the commander of the Serbian Volunteer Corps
 * Spring of 1944 -Beginning of 1945: Montenegrin Volunteer Corps
 * 23 January 1945 - 22 March 1945: Bosnia - the Chetnik 8th Montenegrin Army, consisting of the 1st, 5th, 8th and 9th (Herzegovina) divisions, together with Zaharije Ostojić and Petar Baćović
 * 22 March - 21 April 1945 - the "Montenegrin National Army" subordinated to Sekula Drljević

Other

 * Није поменуо обећање усташа кому- нистима да ће ликвидирати Павла Ђуришића и његових 300 пратилаца,
 * Link to book Znaci about PĐs commands
 * ISPOVEST: Zakopavao sam ubijene Đurišićeve četnike!
 * У БАЊАЛУЧКОМ НАСЕЉУ ШИБОВИ У гробници остаци хиљаду четника које су убили комунисти! А. МАЦАНОВИЋ | 30. октобар 2014. 12:19 | Коментара: 71 На пролеће почиње откопавање масовне гробнице из Другог светског рата. Око 1.000 четника Павла Ђуришића, наводно, у лето 1945. године побили партизани
 * In a Chetnik directive issued on 20 December 1941, the goal of the movement was specified as the creation of a Greater Serbia, embracing also Macedonia, Montenegro, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Vojvodina, all of which would need to be "cleansed" of non-Serbs; specifically, this meant "
 * ДРАЖИНЕ ИНСТРУКЦИЈЕ ЂУРИШИЋУ И ЛАШИЋУ - ФАЛСИФИКАТ
 * Đurišić and his men in operation Black
 * In May 1943 Chetniks prepared flyers to invite people to uprising against Axis. They say that Italians were planning to deliver them to Germans.
 * 15 Maj: U Crnoj Gori započela operacija Švarc...etnici oevidno iznenaeni poslekratkih borbi brzo su predali oruje... Kod Kalinovika, posle slabog otpora, razoruan vei broj etnika (16. maj 1943. Jugoistok: Juče u Crnoj Gori započela operacija "Švarc"... Na prostoru Kalinovika zarobljeno 530 etnika.)
 * Interview with his son in 2003
 * Interesting snippet from Vuceta Redzic, about PD capture
 * Đurišić killed members of Moslem militia
 * Bijelo Polje - January 1943
 * ubijeno oko 400 pripadnika Muslimanske milicije
 * ubijeno 400 pripadnika Musli.manske milicije i oko 1.000 žena i djece
 * Tom prilikom je ubijeno 400 pripadnika Bošnjačke ( muslimanske) milicije i oko 1.000 žena i djece.
 * Foča, Čajniče,.... February 1943
 * source about Muslim militia (link)
 * Ђуришић члан устаничког комитета
 * ... the Muslims, then somewhat fearful of the Serbs' vengeance for the crimes committed against them in the First World War by the Muslim militia in the service of Austria-Hungary, though with a vivid memory of the relationship they had with the ...
 * Текст радоја пајовића против павла ђуришића
 * Za samo četiri dana, od 13. do 16. siječnja, otprilike s 500 četnika uz podršku Talijana i muslimanske milicije, Durišić je uspio
 * Одлука о борбама против усташа, муслимана и Албанаца у Санџаку донета је на народном збору одржаном 13.9. 1942. године код Ђурђевих Ступова у Беранама. Четници су дошли до података из којих се види да се муслиманском вођство у сјеничком, прибојском и бјелопољском срезу припремало да протера Србе са десне обале Лима.
 * Pavle Đurišić - Radoje Pajović
 * He explains (p. 86, 87) that reason for retreat trough Bosnia and not Albania was Mihailovics order based on agreement with Mediteranean commander of Allied forces - Wilson - to provide him with strong Chetnik forces for actions against Germans
 * On p 89 he explains that Djurisic had idea to establish "National front in Montenegro and Northern Albania."
 * p 95, Mihailovic organized Djurisic to be killed
 * Cooperation with Muslims of Sandžak
 * JEDAN DOKUMENT IZ 1942.
 * Đurišić wounded in Montenegro
 * У радиограму од 28. септембра Остојић јавља Ђуришићу да су се Западни савезници већ искрцали у Албанију и на далматинска острва, а да ће се ускоро искрцати и на Јадран. „Добро би било када би ти заузео барем Подгорицу пре њиховог доласка“, писао је Остојић.4Нови план Остојић саопштава Ђуришићу 4. октобра:Пошто се савезници још не искрцавају на нашој обали, а немамо података шта раде у Албанији коју ће вероватно посести целу, врло је важно да ухватиш везу са Прек Цамом, а преко њега са савезницима.5Реч је о националном вођи Албанаца католика на северу земље. Дан пре овога, 3. октобра, албанска делегација дошла је у Подгорицу и тада је постигнут споразум о сарадњи. Албанце су заступали Маркај Марк Ђон, командант националних оружаних снага у Северној Албанији, председник општине Скадар Бушатлија и командант жандармерије Жан Јусуф. Приликом испраћаја гостију, 4. октобра, колону су на граници напали удружени црногорски и албански партизани. Ђуришић је рањен у груди и пренет у болницу у Подгорици. Мајор Саво Вукадиновић, који га је заступао до оздрављења, јавио је Остојићу 9. октобра да се Ђуришић „осећа добро“, али да мора да лежи још десет дана.
 * Rodjen u selu Parci, Ljesanska nahija (link)
 * Draz̆a Mihailović and the rise of the C̆etnik movement, 1941-1942, Lucien Karchmar, 1973 link
 * 18. јул, јер 19. је гарнизон натјеран на безусловну капи- тулацију и предао преостало оружје. Међутим, то што је итали- јански гарнизон задржао пушке и пиштоље до 19. јула никако
 * Јуришлије and Iron Division established by Djurisic
 * More songs about Djurisic (Pavle Đurišić, U Kolasin u rovove, Гледала сам врх Заостра + link in Komar's book
 * Грађански рат у Србији, Боривоје Карапанџић
 * Među dobrovoljcima iz Srbije i Crne Gore posebno mjesto je pripadalo Srpskim sokolovima Siniše Vučinića, miliciji Dragoslava Bokana, zatim četničkom Gvozdenom puku Pavle Đurišić i četničkim odredima
 * Savezničko bombardovanje Crne Gore
 * Mihailovic wants to put Djurisic on trial
 * Jasenovac death place:
 * "За Вељка још кажу да је као пратилац ишао са мајором Ђуришићем и да су заједно завршили у Јасеновцу, у најцрњим мукама - скували су их у казану"
 * "U borbi s ustaškim postrojbama na Lijevču polju, kod Banjaluke, njegove su postrojbe razbijene, a on s najbližim suradnicima zarobljen, odveden u logor Jasenovac i tamo ubijen. "
 * У судском процесу само је хрватски генерал Мирко Грегурић изјавио да зна да је у Јасеновац „допремљен" војвода Павле Ђуришић, кога лично познаје од пре рата, али о његовој судбини не зна ништа.
 * "из те групе, све заједно њих око сто педесет, отерали су у логор у Јасеновац, где су поубијани 1. маја 1945. године."
 * Protiv zaborava i tabua: Jasenovac 1941-1991
 * Detailed description by Vladimir Dedijer
 * Beginning of the rebellion
 * Savezničko bombardovanje Crne Gore
 * Mihailovic wants to put Djurisic on trial
 * Jasenovac death place:
 * "За Вељка још кажу да је као пратилац ишао са мајором Ђуришићем и да су заједно завршили у Јасеновцу, у најцрњим мукама - скували су их у казану"
 * "U borbi s ustaškim postrojbama na Lijevču polju, kod Banjaluke, njegove su postrojbe razbijene, a on s najbližim suradnicima zarobljen, odveden u logor Jasenovac i tamo ubijen. "
 * У судском процесу само је хрватски генерал Мирко Грегурић изјавио да зна да је у Јасеновац „допремљен" војвода Павле Ђуришић, кога лично познаје од пре рата, али о његовој судбини не зна ништа.
 * "из те групе, све заједно њих око сто педесет, отерали су у логор у Јасеновац, где су поубијани 1. маја 1945. године."
 * Protiv zaborava i tabua: Jasenovac 1941-1991
 * Detailed description by Vladimir Dedijer
 * Beginning of the rebellion


 * Additional sources :
 * Депешом о покрету Павла са одредом за Босну, спрече-но је извођење стратегије Павла у заједници са албанскимпрвацима за отпор у Црној Гори и Албанији и намера зајед-ничког одступања, преко Албаније за Грчкуу случају лом-љења отпора у Црној Гори и Албанији.Можели се веровати, да је Павле са одредом, позват заБосну, само зато, да не би са снагама свога одреда и снага-ма националне Албаније изашао за Грчку и са тим ојачаолични престиж и престиж свога одреда.
 * Депешом о покрету Павла са одредом за Босну, спрече-но је извођење стратегије Павла у заједници са албанскимпрвацима за отпор у Црној Гори и Албанији и намера зајед-ничког одступања, преко Албаније за Грчкуу случају лом-љења отпора у Црној Гори и Албанији.Можели се веровати, да је Павле са одредом, позват заБосну, само зато, да не би са снагама свога одреда и снага-ма националне Албаније изашао за Грчку и са тим ојачаолични престиж и престиж свога одреда.

Contacts with Albanians

 * - Mihailovic ordered to sign agreement with Albanian government to cooperate during eventual Chetnik retreat trough Albania
 * - When Djurisic decided to go trough Bosnia, he notified his Albanian collegues
 * Михаиловић према немачким документима - Иван Авакумовић, Коста Николић, Институт за савремену историју (Belgrade, Serbia)
 * Nikola Milovanovic - DRAZA MIHAILOVIC
 * (Goran Komar):
 * Кроз кише куршума пролазио је без страха, као да суто маневарски. Фама да га челик заобилази нијепрестала ни октобра 1944. године, кад је награници Албаније куршум пролетио кроз његовегруди.
 * Преговори са албанским националисВојвода ЂуришИћ је био у сталном контакту саВрховним комадантом Дражом Михаиловићем.Попристанку и овлашћењу његовом,Ђуришић јеотпочео преговоре са принцом Марк Ђоном који јепреузео команду над свим оружаним снагама уАлбанији.Сама смисао споразума је била у ненападању измеђучетничких инационално орјентисаних албанскихснага и заједничку борбу против нацистичкогокупатора.Албанија је била под инвазијом првакау Албанији који ће прихватити споразум иприпремити народне масе на тај подухват,по чемуби исти споразум постао пуноснажан.Албански завјереници када су сазнали да суразоткривени и да је принц Ђон у Подгориципрешли су неопажено на територију Црне Горе инаправили засједу на колону званичника Албанијеи Црне Горе,тј. На принца Марк Ђона и ВојводуПавла Ђуришића који је из домаћинских разлогахтјео да испрати госта до границе државе.Завјереници поштујући правилонепролијевања сопствене крви пропустили сувизило њиховог принца И ранили ВојводуПавла.ране добијене у покушају ликвидације субиле веома тешке И опасне.Сама акција атентата је означила погоршање односа двије стране и онемогућавала даљни токразвијања плана на споразуму на којему сурадили Ђон И Војвода. 13.октобра Павле Ђуришић је именовао НовицуПоповића да га заступа у преговорима саалбанским званичницима и заврши започетипосао.Споразум је постигнут у Скадру 15 . октобра и носио је главне тачке:1.Обједињење националних албанских снага ичетника под врховном командом ДражеМихаиловића;2. Скадар да је сједиште Врховног штаба;3.Да Павле ЂуришИћ пошаље снаге у Скадар причему да се манифестује сарадња борбе противкомуниста и тиме подигне морал националиста уАлбанији;4.Да албанско вођство осигура цјелокупну исхранучетницима за 100,000 војника за шестмјесеци,узимајући у обзир одузимање пунихмагацина од Њемаца које су имали у Скадру;То су биле основне тачке споразума који је постигнути представници са обје стране су га почелипромовисати.Међутим обрт политичких игара у цјелосвјетскојситуацији је узео другачији обрт.
 * Priredili Tanja Pavićević i Čedomir Radusinović: SVJEDOČANSTVA O STRADANJU CRNOGORSKIH ČETNIKA I CIVILA U SLOVENIJI 1945. GODINE Kako je otpala mogućnost prelaska na teritoriju Srbije, zbog prisustva Crvene armije, to su crnogorske vođe antikomunističkog pokreta stupile u vezu i pregovore sa vođama albanskih nacionalista o mogućnosti prelaska preko Albanije za Grčku, gdje su se već Englezi bili iskrcali. Vođa albanskih nacionalista iz Skadra, imena se ne sjećam, došao je na razgovor sa vojvodom Pavlom Đurišićem u Podgoricu. Pregovori su počeli uspješno uz puno uvjeravanje Albanaca, da se preko Albanije može preći bez žrtava za nekoliko dana. No, to se ubrzo pokazalo neostvarivim kada je vojvoda Pavle Đurišić pošao da isprati svog gosta iz Skadra. Kod Tuzi sačekala ih je arnautska zasjeda i ranila vojvodu Đurišića. Đurišić je ovo protumačio kao klopku od strane albanskih nacionalista, pa je i taj pravac povlačenja otpao kao mogućnost.
 * Sukobi na Kosovu, Spasoje Đaković: " „Перси (супруга Павла Ђуришића) Павле се осећа добро."link линк
 * Nikola Milovanović - DRAŽA MIHAILOVIĆ (link Muharem Bajraktari je bio ličnost sa dvora kralja Zogua i borio se za. restauraciju njegove vladavine a protiv italijanske okupacije. O njemu se u jednom ranijem Perhinekovom izveštaju kaže: "Muharem Bajraktar traži od Pavla pismeni zadatak kada bude napad protiv neprijatelja... Muharem Bajraktar traži i pismene upute za rad od Pavla, koje da potpiše i stavi pećat, kako bi znao sa kime ima posla. Obećava da će uputiti, gde Pavlu bude potreba, onoliko barjaka koliko bude potrebno, pod voćstvom samog Muharema."25 Posle ovoga došlo je do direktnog kontakta između Muharemovih delegata i Pavla Đurišića. Kroz te veze četnici su nastojali da ubede Bajraktarija u potrebu za borbom protiv narodnooslobodilačkog pokreta, rame uz rame sa Mihailovićevom organizacijom. S obzirom na ciljeve koje je Bajraktari sebi postavio, ovo nije predstavljalo neke naročite teškoće. Još u decembru 1942. godine Perhinek je javio Mihailoviću: "16. decembra stigli su u Kolašin kuriri pukovnika Muharema Bajraktara, koji su bili pozvani sa naše strane preko naših agenata. Kuriri su: Ali Saban iz Valone, Sali Rama iz Valone i Beg Rustem iz Jasenice. Ovi su kuriri sigurni i oprobani naši prijatelji. Nisu doneli sa sobom nikakvih dokumenata ili pisma od samog pukovnika, jer je i njemu stalo do toga da dotle prvo u direktnu vezu sa nekim Vašim predstavnikom ili komandantom pa tek onda da dođe do ličnih sastanaka sa samim Muharemom..."26
 * и овлаш- ћењу његовом, Ђуришић је отпочео преговоре с принцом Ђон Марк Ђоном, који је био преузео команду над
 * почетком октобра 1944. у Подгорици са албанским националис- тичким вођама, које је предводио Марк Ђон Маркај Od Vezirovog do zidanog mosta
 * http://books.google.rs/books?ei=euWBUMySOsXCswb7noCQCA&hl=sr&id=nQa5AAAAIAAJ&dq=%D1%92%D1%83%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%88%D0%B8%D1%9B+%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA&q=%22+%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA+%D1%92%D0%BE%D0%BD+%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%98%D0%B0+%D0%B8+%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%86+%D0%9A%D0%B0%D1%99%D0%BE+%D1%81%D0%B0+%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BC+%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B0.%22#search_anchor " Марк ђон Маркаја и Принц Каљо са албанским националистима."
 * Serbian Historical and Cultural Association Njegos
 * Jedan Albanac, koji je zbog krvne osvete pucao u Đurišića. demantovao je tu legendu: on je pucao u prsa četničkom vojvodi, koji se brzo oporavio od rane koja mu je probila pluća. - Specijalni zadatak Balkan, Hermann Neubacher
 * link 1 and link 2 to source which supports information that in November 1944 delegation of Djurisics chetniks went to Albania to agree safe conduct trough Albania in case of retreat.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:00, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
 * Jedan Albanac, koji je zbog krvne osvete pucao u Đurišića. demantovao je tu legendu: on je pucao u prsa četničkom vojvodi, koji se brzo oporavio od rane koja mu je probila pluća. - Specijalni zadatak Balkan, Hermann Neubacher
 * link 1 and link 2 to source which supports information that in November 1944 delegation of Djurisics chetniks went to Albania to agree safe conduct trough Albania in case of retreat.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:00, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Iron Cross

 * Na strasnom sudu radoje vukcevic page 63, denies authenticity of news of Iron Corss published in "Lovćen", organ of Pavle's enemy Ljubo Vuksanovic
 * плод пропаганде затренутне
 * Piše: Novak ADŽIĆ Vjerovatno je riječ o emigrantu iz Poljske i agentu nekoliko obavještajnih službi- Đorđiju-Đorđu Moskijeviču-, koji je u Crnoj Gori, pored ostalog, bio angažovan i kao prevodilac/tumač u razgovorima i dogovorima između okupacionih vlasti i domaćih kolaborantskih snaga. Đorđe Moskijevič je sarađivao sa italijanskim i njemačkim okupatorom u Crnoj Gori (1942-1944) i sa predstavjicima bjelaške grupe (četničkih disidenata), koje je predvodio Ljubomir-Ljubo Vuksanović, te povremeno, pored “Glasa Crnogorca” (iz vremena italijanske okupacije Crne Gore), i u kolaborantskom listu “Lovćen”
 * високи официр НКВД и агент Гестапоа Георгиј Москиевич, признајући да је добио задатак да нанесе штету четничком покрету и тако ослаби војводу Павла Ђуришића пред операцију "Вајс".
 * Internirali su ih Nemci, a Ralević danas podvaljuje da su Nemci, odnosno Hitler, odlikovali Pavla Đurišića gvozdenim krstom. Tu laž, koja je objavljena u listu »Lovćen« 1944. godine, demantovao je i autor Đorđe Moskojević, bivši kapetan GESTAPO-a i agent NKVD-a, odnosno saradnik komunista. Cilj mu je bio, kako je sam izjavio, da naškodi četničkom pokretu, stoji u Šćekićevom reagovanju na izjave beranskih boraca.
 * Maximilian von Weichs, commander in chief for Yugoslavia, Hungary, Albania and Thrace whose headquarter was until 5 October 1944 in Belgrade and since then in Vukovar diff. On 11 October 1944, not earlier but only on 11 October 1944, in Vukovar, when Red Army units were attacking all his forces, he found some time to think about Đurišić and to write a recommendation to Keiper to award him with "Iron Cross" which could only damage a little remaining reputation of his and put him and his weak forces into bigger problem. He did not award this cross to commanders of Montenegrin Gendarmerie, Militia ..... or some other unit under their direct command, but awarded it to Chetnik commander who he knew was at least in contact with DM and his Chetniks who were considered by Germans as enemies.
 * Maximilian von Weichs, commander in chief for Yugoslavia, Hungary, Albania and Thrace whose headquarter was until 5 October 1944 in Belgrade and since then in Vukovar diff. On 11 October 1944, not earlier but only on 11 October 1944, in Vukovar, when Red Army units were attacking all his forces, he found some time to think about Đurišić and to write a recommendation to Keiper to award him with "Iron Cross" which could only damage a little remaining reputation of his and put him and his weak forces into bigger problem. He did not award this cross to commanders of Montenegrin Gendarmerie, Militia ..... or some other unit under their direct command, but awarded it to Chetnik commander who he knew was at least in contact with DM and his Chetniks who were considered by Germans as enemies.

Claims that Mihailovic's instructions are forged

 * Cedomir Antic - To je dokument za koji je dokazano da je falsifikat. To je u istoriografiji dokazano odavno. Na suđenju Dragoslavu Mihailoviću tužioci su odustali da ga upotrebe pošto je već tada bilo izvesno da je reč o falsifikatu.

Why Chetniks in Montenegro collaborated with Germans from 1943?
Chetniks' collaboration with Nazi Germany is not appropriately explained.

One group of motifs for this collaboration is presented by Jozo Tomasevich explains it in his work The Chetniks, page 351:
 * "The Montenegrin Chetniks justified their collaboration with the Germans, both prior to and following DjuriSic's return, with the same arguments they had used to justify their earlier collaboration with the Italians — that is, the necessity of fighting the Communists and putting an end to the civil war that was bringing death and destruction to many of their supporters in Montenegro. They had another compelling reason however — the necessity of bringing in food supplies to the province from areas under German control and by means of German transport. In some parts of the province food was so scarce that near-starvation conditions existed."

Sources that Pavle Đurišić captured Berane

 * "Већ 16 јула устаници су заузели Беране које је опседао капе- тан Павле Ђуришић. У андријевачком срезу устанак је почео 17 јула. Убрзо је дошла ... свој штаб. 5) Почетком октобра 1941, кренули су из Црае Горе за Равну" - Treći srpski ustanak, 1941, Томови 1-2, Sergije M. Živanović
 * "Павле ЂуришиЋ дигао Је Ва- соЈевиЋе 15/16 Јула и опколио Беране" - Zalosna stvarnost: 1941; u spomen 25-o godišnjice trećeg srpskog ustanka, Boz̆idar Sokolović, Vlado Trebjes̀anin - 1966
 * Небројем, колико њиховом одлучношћу да умру илипобиједе, Ђуришић приморава италијанскукоманду на предају. Тако је 18. јула Беране опетбило у нашим рукама, а зелени Лим текао крвависпод древног Будима. - Goran Komar, Vojvoda Pavle Đurišić
 * “General Draža Mihailović i opšta istorija četničkog pokreta” Miloslav Samardžić - text published on website Večernje novosti. - Na čelu borbe protiv okupatora u Trinaestojulskom ustanku bio Pavle Đurišić s oficirima.
 * Spomenik Pavlu Đurišiću trebalo je podići kada su podizani drugi spomenici iz Drugog svetskog rata na ovim prostorima, jer je i Pavle Đurišić bio oslobodilac Berana. Posle sloma ustanka razišao se sa komunistima i januara 1942. formirao svoj štab. - Historian Goran Kiković in his interview to Glas Javnosti
 * link

Djurisic's subordination to Communists

 * Milinko Đurović who participated in the events and later became communist general awarded with Order of the People's Hero says that communists' efforts to convince Djurisic to cooperate with them - failed . He admits that communists even tried to kill him when he went to 'Territory of the... in Serbia' to connect with Mihailovic, but again failed:
 * Radoje Pajović: "Za vrijeme ustanka bori se protiv crnogorskih separatista pod zastavom KPJ, "

Đurišić and attempts to subordinate his forces to Allies

 * Od Berte PERSI 306. 22/X. Vukadinović u Albaniji stupio u vezu sa engleskom misijom. General Markling49 vrlo lepo primio. Mi zajedno [sa albanskim nacionalistima istupili u pogledu zahteva. Naši zah-tevi: stavljanje svih nacionalnih snaga Jugoslavije i Albanije pod komandu saveznika. Prekid borbe sa komunistima, da nas zaštite a mi ćemo raditi po direktivama. Borba protiv okupatora. Iskrcavanje negde na prostoru San Đovani di Medua — Bar. Markling pitao komandu u Italiji. Ovi naredili da pristupi izvršenju zahteva s time da će oni odlučiti gde da se iskrcaju. Markling saopštio Savu50 da što pre maršuje u pravcu sektora Ulcinj — Bar — Budva. Nast.]
 * Štab 3. korpusa je došao do prepisa pisma koje je, oktobra 1944. godine, uputio Pavle Đurišić Petru Baćeviću. On je, 18. 11. 1944, depešom prenio to pismo Vrhovnom štabu. Ono glasi: »S. Vukadinović u Albaniji stupio u vezu s engleskom misijom...
 * Od Berte PERSI 306. 22/X. Vukadinović u Albaniji stupio u vezu sa engleskom misijom. General Markling49 vrlo lepo primio. Mi zajedno [sa albanskim nacionalistima istupili u pogledu zahteva. Naši zah-tevi: stavljanje svih nacionalnih snaga Jugoslavije i Albanije pod komandu saveznika. Prekid borbe sa komunistima, da nas zaštite a mi ćemo raditi po direktivama. Borba protiv okupatora. Iskrcavanje negde na prostoru San Đovani di Medua — Bar. Markling pitao komandu u Italiji. Ovi naredili da pristupi izvršenju zahteva s time da će oni odlučiti gde da se iskrcaju. Markling saopštio Savu50 da što pre maršuje u pravcu sektora Ulcinj — Bar — Budva. Nast.]
 * Štab 3. korpusa je došao do prepisa pisma koje je, oktobra 1944. godine, uputio Pavle Đurišić Petru Baćeviću. On je, 18. 11. 1944, depešom prenio to pismo Vrhovnom štabu. Ono glasi: »S. Vukadinović u Albaniji stupio u vezu s engleskom misijom...

Miloš Kureš testimony
Miloš Kureš wrote memoires in which he described how Đurišić and other Chetniks were interrogated in Gradiška....

Siege of Scutari in 1478-1479

 * Istorija Crne Gore. / Knj. 2, Od kraja XII do kraja XV vijeka. Tom 2, Crna gora u doba oblastnih gospodara
 * U proljeće / ljeto 1474. Turci opsjedali Skadar, u ogromnoj bici, Ivan Crnojević i Venecijanci odbranili Skadar. Domeniko Malipjero, mletački senator opisuje opsadu Skadra 1474. i držanje Ivana Crnojevića.
 * "1478., padoše Turci ponovno velikom vojskom pod Skadar; Crnojević napadajući izdašno" - Vjesnik za arheologiju i historiju dalmatinsku, Frane Bulić, Mihovil Abramić, Arheološki muzej u Splitu, Arheološki muzej u Zadru, Томови 51-52, p. 79,
 * "Годину дана потом клонуо је и Скадар, пред којим је султан, као пример за- страшивања, дао посећи 300 грађана из освојеног Дриваста. Иван Црнојевић је поштено помагао Млечанима, али им није могао помоћи. " - Abadon, anđeo uništenja: roman - Vladimir Ćorović
 * Иванова војска и албанске чете су веома много узнемиривале Турке за вријеме те опсаде. Мле- чићи нијесу могли одољети султановој опсади па пре- даду Скадар Турцима, са којима су потписали непово- љан уговор о миру.
 * И као што је обично у то време бивало, скадарски кнез и провидур Антонио де Лезе је знао да многи скадрани одржавају везе с Турцима и јавно су изјављивали да би требало предати град Турцима

Kastrioti COA
Note: If Skanderbeg used certain COA does it necessarily mean that it was the same COA used by other notable members of Kastrioti family before or after him? On the other hand, if some other member of Kastrioti family used some COA (i.e. some of Italian descendants of Skanderbeg), does it necessarily mean that Skanderbeg used the same COA? Is it better to have two COAs, one of Skanderbeg and one of the family?


 * According to Petar Popovski, the Skenderbeg’s flag, a Miac from Kastrioti family included elements of the Miac’s flag as published by Bradina. The Flag and Coat of Arms of Kastrioti and their relations to the  Miacs Avariant of the Kastrioti armsm published as a drawing byAlbanian author Varfi, has a rampant lion with a crescent  under its feet with tail finishing in n ivy above which there is a white lily. In the dexter part a double headed eagle is added superficially.
 * Dans le recueil blason de Korénié — Néoric de 1595 qui est conservé dans la bibliothèque Univresitaire à Zagreb, se trouvent deux blasons albanais de la famille de Castriota et de Doukaguine.
 * La présence de la famille Kastriote est attestée à Amalfi, la présence dans la cathédrale de cette ville de Campanie d'une inscription funéraire mentionnant le nom de « Georgius Castriota » et surmonté d'un aigle bicéphal et du blason
 * Castriot-Scanderberg porte de gueules au pal d'azur à enquérir, chargé de trois châteaux d'or maçonnés de fable, accofté de quatre pattes de griffons affrontées d'argent. Michaeli, à Venife, porte fafcé d'azur & d'argent - Nouvelle méthode raisonnée du blason, ou de l'art héraldique du .... 1770. (is it this COA?)
 * Castriot dit Scanderbeg — Albanie, De gu. au pal d'azur, ch. de trois tours sommées chacune de trois tourelles d'or, maçonnées de sa.; le pal accosté de quatre pattes de griffon'd'arg., affr en pals.- (GoogleTranslate: Castriot said Scanderbeg - Albania, De gu. a pale azure, c. summed three rounds each of three towers of gold, its masonry.; pal accosted the four legs griffon'd'arg., in affr pals.) - Armorial General, originally published in 1884

Chetniks
I am concerned that this article is WP:COATRACK article whose real purpose is to promote one biased POV which is also violation of NPOV and UNDUE policy. I think that the main problem with this article, and some other articles also, might be that it is subjected to coordinated actions of the one group of editors circumventing the normal process of consensus. If I am right then I believe it is better to resolve the main problem instead of chasing consequences around.

Therefore I will first try to check if my concerns are founded by following this steps:
 * 1) checking the archives of this article talkpage and history of the article to see if there are some non-resolved issues connected with this major problem.
 * 2)  by following steps of dispute resolution.

I am maybe wrong. Therefore, depending on the outcome of dispute resolution process, I will further proceed with activities to resolve the problem

Contributors

 * List of contributors to Chetniks article
 * List of contributors to Template:Collaboration in Yugoslavia

Note about possible sockpupetry
I noticed that many users who participated in the discussions and editing of the article were accounts specially created for this purpose. I think that it might be a sign of mass sockpupetry. While following above mentioned steps I will try to exclude that kind of users and IP users as well.

Discussion about deleting Template:Collaboration in Yugoslavia: No consensus

 * Summary of !votes:
 * DELETE:
 * User:BoDu - nominator
 * User:North8000 - The name is inherently selective / POV and pejorative.
 * User:Jean-Jacques Georges - delete... the better option would be to rename and recompose into a template about the whole World War II context in Yugoslavia, without any labels.
 * User:SnowFire - Delete with fire. Alternatively, rename and refocus to World War II in Yugoslavia. I raised concerns about this template ages ago at Template_talk:Yugoslav_Axis_collaborationism/Archive_1 and since gave up arguing, but there is a strong POV-pushing contingent that wants to emphasize that the Chetniks/royalists were totally Nazi-hugging traitors.
 * User:Nuujinn - Delete, the template is inherently POV as the term collaborator is loaded. It's a complex issues, and the template is unnecessarily reductionist.
 * KEEP:
 * User:Peacemaker67, User:PRODUCER, User:DIREKTOR
 * User:BaSH PR0MPT - Strong keep and removal from this category as RfD / AfD is not a means of dispute resolution. .... I suggest all editors involved perhaps take a step back and allow uninvolved parties to take over on this matter, or if they can remain rational and cool headed pursue dispute resolution formally.

Discussion about separate articles about "different Chetnik movements throughout the 20th Century"
Supported by:
 * 1) User:John Gradwell - seperate articles depicting the different Chetnik movements throughout the 20th Century
 * 2) User:FkpCascais - I do agree on this.
 * 3) User:Jean-Jacques Georges - the article should be split in two for clarity's sake, with one version concerning specifically the Mihailovic movement, and one (called something like "Chetniks (historical)") addressing all the other various movements which called themselves "Chetniks".
 * 4) User:Estavisti - Chetniks and the Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland are two related, but separate topics. Shoving both into one article is ridiculous.
 * 5) User:Hadžija - The Yugoslav Army in the Fatherland is a very specific topic and should not be lumped with all the flotsam and jetsam that comes under "Chetniks".

Opposed by:
 * 1) User:DIREKTOR - Starting five [[WP:CFORK] S is out of the question.]
 * 2) User:Zocky - In short, when the article becomes too large, it will probably make sense to split off some information into separate articles
 * 3) User:Laughing Man - I personally feel that the article should not have been split, but instead, improved and clarified

Contemporary Chetniks

 * User:Zocky - There are no modern era chetniks, there are just groups who informally use the name, or who are called that by other people.

Pupovac statement discussion
Adding Pupovac statement to the article:

Opposed:
 * 1) User:John Gradwell
 * 2) User:FkpCascais
 * 3) User:Fainites

Supported:
 * 1) User:PRODUCER
 * 2) User:DIREKTOR

Other users who had the same concerns as me

 * 1) User:SnowFire - there is a strong POV-pushing contingent that wants to emphasize that the Chetniks/royalists were totally Nazi-hugging traitors
 * 2) User:John Gradwell - A team of nationalists have hijacked the article, and have attempted to portray the Chetniks as some "evil axis sponsored Militia"
 * 3) User:FkpCascais - This one, Chetniks, and Draža Mihailović articles have been heavily edited mostly by one single editor with a few others supporting the same POV, having in mind only a few sources all of them very unfavouable towards them, and selectively choosing them. Many other related articles are also heavily edited by the same editors using the same POV.
 * 4) User:Ganderoleg - As we can see, some people have clear motivation to hide their dirty laundry by aggressive accusations of others, by using biased sources and using circular reasoning... opinion which could expressed in form without violation of WP:NPA and WP:AGF

Collaboration with the Government of National Salvation
Jozo Tomasevich (main source of the current version of the article cited almost 100 times) wrote that:


 * 1) "certain pro-Mihailovic officers in Nedic's administration, presumably on their own, also established and kept up contact with Mihailovic and his forces. The acting commander of Serbian gendarmerie ... and therefore its deputy commander, Colonel Jovan P. Trisic was arrested in November 1941 for having maintained such contact and sent to a prisoner of war camp in Germany"
 * 2) In February 1942 in a conference with the chief of staff of Paul Bader ... the Serbian authorities were simply to discover Mihailovic's whereabouts and report it to the Germans; it was a task of German troops to capture him.
 * 3) Nedic reccomended to the Germans that he should be allowed to "liquidate Mihailovic movement" but he was unable to persuade them to accept his plans
 * 4) ...occasionally the illegal Chetniks resumed sabotage activities, sometimes attacking units of the Serbian quisling forces or German and Bulgarian forces

Some issues
Possible inaccuracies


 * 1) If Babinger is right when estimate the size of the Ottoman army to 30.000, then Mehmed did not leave Albania with his main army (but only with 25%) if he left Balaban with 23,000 soldiers. ❌ - If Mehmed left 23 out of 30 thousand soldiers (Babinger), then he left with small part of his army, not with "his main army". The number of 100.000 Ottoman soldiers remained in the article despite it was only a rumor which was refuted by the reports and presented source
 * 2) " the Turks could march against Bosnia, Serbia, Dalmatia, Negroponte, or Albania" Again Turks marching ... but in this case against Serbia (? Serbia was captured by the Ottomans in 1459, seven years before this event), (Bosnia in 1463, three years before this event) and again of course Albania (which significant part of the territory already belonged to the Ottomans for decades). Wikilinks are leading to the modern day republics of Serbia and Bosnia. ❌ Ottomans are unlikely to march against countries they already conquered, like Serbia, Bosnia, major part of Albania...
 * 3) Elbasan concerned not only the Albanians, but also the Venetians who feared for their possession in Albania as Durazzo lay only 30 miles (48 km) away - Today, when there are modern roads, |EUR&indemnite=&carbCost=1.5&autoConso=6.8&villeConso=6&routeConso=5.6 the shortest route between Durres and Elbassan is 83 km, or more, depending on the route. ✅ term being away was replaced with proximity
 * 4) Venice reported to Hungary that Mehmed had offered peace and was willing to accept it. Hungary also opted for peace, but Mehmed only sought peace with Venice in order to isolate Skanderbeg and thus peace was not signed.  - It is not so big problem because of this assertions are not referenced. The problem is that it seems to contradict to what Setton says about the same thing. According to Setton, it was totally the opposite. Venice wanted peace, but Mehmed refused it by requesting too much for peace (Venice to pay him yearly tributes among other things) - page 287. ❌
 * 5) The number of the Ottoman troops who participated in this siege was 30,000 according to the Babinger (page 252. The same number is in the existing version of the article about Skanderbeg. ✅
 * 6) According to Babinger, and "probably as early as February" "piched camp outside Kruje". The article says June? ❌
 * 7) According to Babinger,  Balaban came to Albania before Mehmed (probably February). The article says they came together in June (Mehmed had marched into Albania with Ballaban Badera under his command)? ❌
 * 8) According to Marin Barleti, Skanderbeg's main biographer, Skanderbeg had placed 4,400 men under Tanush Thopia. Along with them were placed Venetian infantry under Baldizar Perduzzi and 200 Neapolitan marksmen. - Venetian infantry (Babinger says 1,000) and Napolitan marksmen (200) together with 4,400 men under Thopia equals 5,600. Infobox says 4,400? ❌ I checked again. The dictionary defines along with as accompanying; together with. In that case together with 4,400 men under Thopia were 1,000 Venetian infantry and 200 Napolitan marksmen, which makes total number 5,600.
 * 9) According to Babinger, the commander of the garrison was Baldizar Perduzz (Baldassare Perducci) (The commander in Kruje was Baldassare Perducci). This information corresponds with the Ottoman version of the main reason for the attack on Skanderbeg's (Venetian) stronghold. ❌

Unclear
 * 1) The fortress especially worried Venice since Elbasan was constructed on the banks of the Shkumbin River which would allow the Ottomans to send ships into the Adriatic and threaten Venetian colonies. - This sentence does not make much sense. In 1466 Ottomans already had Vlore under their control for 50 years. Why would they need Shkumbin River to send ships into the Adriatic? ❌
 * 2) against the Ottoman Empire - not only against Ottoman Empire. Skanderbeg fought against Venetian Republic also, not to mention his Italian campaign and clashes with Dukagjini clan. ❌
 * , defeating them in battle multiple times, - not only defeating. From the start of his struggle he was defeated many times and gradually lost control of the territory and castles. ✅
 * 1) He organized a timar in eastern Albania to strangle Skanderbeg's domains. - A timar? Numerous timars existed in eastern Albania much before 1466. Timars were part of the sanjaks, so there is no need to mention only one timar in eastern Albania because readers could be mislead to believe that other timars in eastern Albania did not participate in struggle against Skanderbeg. ❌
 * 2) Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479) should be explained because it shows a wider picture of the events and provide a basis for the Ottoman version of the events. It is very important to emphasize one simple fact: During this Ottoman-Venetian war territory of Albania became one of the main battlefields. ❌
 * 3) The Ottoman side emphasized that the main reason for Ottoman campaigns against Skanderbeg was his "breaking of faith" and allowing a Venetian forces to garrison in Kruje. Ottoman forces in Albania were threatened by them and because of that treat Ottomans organized campaigns against Skanderbeg after 1464.. The article about Skanderbeg's incursion into Ottoman territory contains information about Balaban being appointed as governor of Ohrid, instead of Şeremet (Ballaban had replaced Şeremet as the commander in Ohrid after the latter fell out of favor with the sultan). ❌ The Ottoman point of view is not presented to the readers
 * 4) The information that Balaban was sanjakbey of the Sanjak of Ohrid is important and should be presented in the article. The existing text ( Mehmed, sensing the weakness in his frontier, assigned Ballaban Badera as commander, replacing Şeremet. or Mehmed had marched into Albania with Ballaban Badera under his command) is misleading and confusing and uninitiated reader could get impression that Şeremet or Ballaban came to Albania from outside of Albania as commanders of the Ottoman armies. In fact, they were already present in Albania because part of the territory of Albania, with substantial population of ethnic Albanians, was the important part of their sanjak. They had important position of sanjakbeys of the Sanjak of Ohrid. As any other Ottoman sanjakbey they were obliged to recruit soldiers in their sanjak and to participated in war near their region. ✅
 * 5) Both Setton and Babinger in their works presented on this page, emphasize information that Mehmed II plundered and destroyed area around Durres (part of Albania Veneta) before he left Albania. That is important information that should be presented in the article because it provides necessary context of this siege within larger Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479). ✅ ✅
 * 6) June event: "Soon after, Mehmed's men marched into Albania...Skanderbeg had remained in Albania, however, but he had sent many inhabitants of Krujë to Italy as refugees in twelve ships. With them, he sent his wife, Donika, and his son, John . ."....August event: "On 16 August, around the time that Elbasan was finished,... Venetian faith in Skanderbeg's resistance began to subside,..Since the Signoria still had not delivered its promised aid, Skanderbeg sent his son John to Venice...John returned to Albania empty-handed"...The voyage of this 12 year old boy should be clarified. ❌ It is still unclear how many times John traveled to Italy in period June-August ❌ Regarding John, I didn't say that he hadn't travelled to Venice. I proposed to investigate his voyage, because I find it unclear from where he travelled and where to he returned, especially taking in consideration that Skanderbeg travelled himself to Italy in October
 * 7) Last weeks of 1466 - During the last weeks of the year in Albania there was no fighting ... Mehmed launched a campaign against the Venetian possessions in Albania to pressure the Republic to accept peace or ceasefire...On Christmas Eve, Paul invited Skanderbeg to a ceremony - Very confusing. There was no fighting and Mehmed launched a campaign against Venetians (although he left Albania months ago and his forces were busy besieging Kruje). According to the above mentioned sources written by Setton and Babinger, Mehmed attacked Venetian possessions in Albania during the summer of 1466 not during the last weeks on 1466. If he left in August 1466 the only one who could launch a campaign against the Venetian possessions in Albania was Ballaban. And he was besieging Kruje. This needs to be clarified. ✅
 * 8)  According to the Babiner, the commander of the besieged forces was Venetian officer, Baldazarre Perducci. He is totally forgotten in the infobox. Instead, there is only Moneta mentioned on the bottom of the list, although he was not in the besieged fortress but in relief forces. Maybe it would be a good idea to divide information about besieged and relief forces and their commanders, like in other siege articles about Skanderbeg. ✅ ❌
 * 9) February 1467 - This amount had not been gathered, however, and Paul thus offered Skanderbeg 2,300 ducats. - Offered or granted? What happened with that offer and 2,300 ducats? ❌
 * 10) February 1467 - Ottoman force sent to defeat the League of Lezhë definitively, however, had been defeated. - What force, who defeated it and where? ❌
 * 11) Spring 1467 - The once distant Albanian nobles, among them Dukagjini, were now convinced of their impending end and allied themselves with Skanderbeg. - If forces of other Albanian nobles were distant and if they allied themselves with Skanderbeg only in spring 1467, what is the reason for emphasizing that one of belligerents was League of Lezhë? Who (besides Venetians) fought against Ottoman Empire until April 1467? ❌
 * 12) Ballaban had raised his camp in hills southwest of Krujë and beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk, he placed a guarding force. The rest of his army surrounded Krujë.[29] Skanderbeg and his allies marched through the mouth of the Mat River and cut through the woods of Jonima to the boundaries of Krujë.[61] Skanderbeg's staff was assigned different groups for an assault on the main Ottoman camp: northern Albanian forces would be put under Dukagjini's command, Venetian battalions were under the command of Moneta, and Skanderbeg's most trusted forces would be assigned to another group under his command; Krujë's garrison would naturally defend the fortress. Moneta's and Dukagjini's men would attack the besieging forces from the north and Skanderbeg's men would attack from south of Krujë while also blocking any possible Ottoman reinforcements from the east.[62] Skanderbeg first assaulted the guarding force which Ballaban had left and he gained control of this strategic point.[29] Skanderbeg then managed to defeat Ottoman relief forces under Ballaban's brother, Jonuz, and captured him and his son.[63][29] Four days later, Ballaban ordered an assault on Krujë but was killed in the resulting clashes by Gjergj Lleshi (Georgius Alexius). - This description is confusing.
 * 13) Ballaban's army was divided and positioned: 1) in "camp in hills southwest of Krujë", 2) "beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk... a guarding force" and 3) force which "surrounded Krujë".
 * 14) Allied forces of Skanderbeg's supporters were divided to three groups, under command of: 1) Dukagjini, 2) Moneta and 3) Skanderbeg
 * 15) The battle:
 * 16) Dukagjini and Moneta attacked would attack "the besieging forces from the north"
 * 17) Skanderbeg attacked "the guarding force" "beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk" "from south of Krujë" and gained control of this strategic point
 * 18) Skanderbeg defeated Ottoman relief forces under Ballaban's brother, Jonuz, and captured him and his son.
 * 19)  Four days later Ballaban ordered an assault on Krujë but was killed in the resulting clashes by Gjergj Lleshi (Georgius Alexius) - What were they doing for four days, after they successfully attacked besieging forces from both South and North ? If Skanderbeg managed to defeat one Ottoman relief force, why would he allow Ballabana to attack fortress four days later? How can Ballaban attack Kruje if there were Dukagjini, Moneta and Skanderbeg who were victorious against the besieging forces, guarding forces and relief forces surrounding Kruje from both North and South? Did Ballaban attack relief forces or Kruje?  It is not clear if Ballaban was with encircled Ottoman forces or not (the article says his camp was "in hills southwest of Krujë". Attack of the encircled Ottoman forces to the fort instead of Skanderbeg's relief forces which encircled the besieging forces does not make much sense, especially taking in consideration that they failed to capture it in much better conditions with much larger forces during almost a year period. Why would they wait for four days before performing this assault on Kruje, ....  ❌

Other


 * 1) He thus requested the arrival of promised Venetian forces when they signed a treaty of alliance on 20 August 1463 and the promised contribution of 3,000 ducats. - Is it mistake in the year? Maybe it should be 1466? If it was really a treaty of alliance signed in August 1463, when Venice and Ottoman Empire were confronted and starting Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479) then this fact should be clearly presented to the readers. Skanderbeg allied with Ottoman enemy. ❌
 * 2) Here Kenneth Setton explains that "documents relating to Skanderbeg's struggle with the Turks in 1466 are conveniently assembled in J. Radonić "Djuradj Kastriot Skenderbeg" so I propose to add Further reading section and include this work in it.  ❌
 * 3) Here Kenneth Setton (page 279) says that Mehmed withdrew from the siege in June 1466, not in August like it is written in the article. That corresponds with what Babinger wrote here (page 260) that Mehmed II was near Durres on July 3rd. Both Setton and Babinger present information that Mehmed II plundered and destroyed area around Durres before he left Albania. That is important information that should be presented in the article. ✅
 * 4) The Siege section can be expanded with above mentioned works of Setton and Babinger. ❌
 * 5) the men stationed in Elbasan would constantly harass the Albanians, to leave them no place for refuge - Sultan did not build Elbasan to constantly harass people who are Albanians, leaving them no place for refuge. Ottoman Empire did not divide people on ethnicity basis. ❌ Albanians were major part of the Ottoman armies active in the region of Albania.
 * 6) Babinger (page 253) explains that Sultan withdrawn with 3,000 Albanian prisoners. This information is not presented in the article. ✅
 * 7) According to Marin Barleti, Skanderbeg's main biographer, - Main biographer?! ❌ Barleti was Skanderbeg's main biographer in 16th century. Today, Skanderbeg's main biographer is scholar who wrote the best biography of Skanderbeg. Oliver Schmitt. Refering to Barleti as Skanderbeg's main biographer despite the fact that major part of biography he wrote are his inventions and forgery can mislead the readers to believe that Barleti's panegyric inventions are reliable.
 * 8)  200 Neapolitan marksmen - There is no information in the infobox about this unit. ❌ The number of the marksmen is not so important as the fact that Kingdom of Naples supported the defense of this Kruje too. That support is mentioned by Babinger too.
 * 9) Marin Barleti says that Mehmed passed through Dibra and massacred 8,000 people, a figure close to the number given by the Ottoman chronicler Oruc ben Adil of 7,500 - Babinger mentions 8,000 men from the Cedhin + many women and children. Cedhin is different than Dibra. This should be investigated. ❌ but not too important I guess
 * 10) Babinger mentions (page 261) the son of Skanderbeg's sister (Skanderbeg's nephew) who was Muslim and part of the Ottoman forces. He ensconced on Cape Rodoni (which means that Skanderbeg lost Rodoni Castle during this events). There are many web sites which present information that Barleti claim that Rodoni castle was destroyed in 1467 by Ottoman forces. ❌

Minor issues
 * 1) The expression "second siege of Kruje" is not used in sources about this event, except one tertiary source which is very inaccurate in this case. ❌ the name of this conflict remained the second siege of the Kruje despite provided rationale
 * 2) and had grown close with the Western Christian states, especially with Alfonso V of Aragon and the Papal States - He had not only grown close with Alfonso V of Aragon but Ferdinand I of Naples too. In 1466 it was Ferdinand I who was the king, not Alfonso. He was vassal of the king of Naples from 1448. His vassal status is important and should be clearly presented in the article. ❌
 * 3) Skanderbeg sent his son John to Venice. Even though the Albanian resistance was at its apogee, John returned to Albania empty-handed. - Skanderbeg needed help and sent his 12 years old son to get the money? I am not sure about it.
 * 4) Despite his inability to subdue Krujë, Mehmed decided that the Ottoman presence would not depart Albania. - This sentence does not make any sense. Why would Ottoman Empire leave Albania after 50 years of their presence there because there is one highland fortress which remained out of their control. ❌
 * 5) "By the beginning of May, however, it was clear that Turkish preparations had been made for Albania. This was made clear when after ending his campaigns in Wallachia, Karaman, and the Morea, Mehmed moved his forces to the Albanian border. None of the promised reinforcements from Naples and Venice arrived and Skanderbeg was thus left to fight Turkish forces alone."...."News arrived from eastern Albania that the Ottomans had begun massacring the inhabitants there....Soon after, Mehmed's men marched into Albania."..."Skanderbeg did not expect such a campaign and his army was not ready to halt the advances." - Contradictory informations. Everybody knew, it was clear ... but Sk. did not expect it? ❌
 * 6) (middle of 1467) The map which presents "Main Albanian towns during the 15th century, including settlements in neighboring regions" is not useful for this article. This article is about the siege of Kruje. The names of the towns on the map are so small that they are not visible. It is impossible to notice the position of Kruje unless you don't click three times on the map. ❌
 * 7) (August 1467) Venetian faith in Skanderbeg began to subside, however, since the sultan took a much more aggressive approach in his relations with Venice. - Much more aggressive approach in his relations with Venice? Ottoman Empire and Venice were in the middle of the war - Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479). ❌ Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479) is not mentioned and linked despite the fact that this siege was not only part of this war, but it was organized because Skanderbeg allied with Venice in this war.
 * 8) Ballaban had raised his camp in hills southwest of Krujë and beneath Mt. Sarisalltëk, he placed a guarding force. - Not much information about this mountain. ❌ not too important I guess
 * 9) Skanderbeg's only hope was for help to come from Italy - Setton and Babinger mention help of Ragusa in their above mentioned works. The story is not comlete without mention of this help and later Ragusan decision to forbid Skanderbeg to enter Ragusa. ❌
 * 10) "Baldassare Perducci" - 8 hits /// "Baldizar Perduzzi" - 0 hits (4 hits to this text) ✅
 * 11) Babinger published information about the (page 260) rumors that Skanderbeg was to surrender Kruje under mediation of the King of Naples, who became Ottoman ally. Taking in consideration that Skanderbeg was at the Ferdinand's court at the same time when there was Ottoman ambassador who signed peace treaty with Naples it is not strange that Babinger thought such information is worth mentioning. ❌
 * 12) In the article about the Siege of Berat (1455) Skaderbeg is positioned at the bottom of the list of the commanders, probably because he was not present at the end of the siege. Instead there is a long list of local commanders before Skanderbeg, although Skanderbeg was responsible for big mistake when leaving the siege with sizeable contigent before capturing Berat "believing the situation was well in hand and that the castle would fall". But in case of this article the same logic was not followed. Although sultan did not even participate in the siege for most of its duration (Babinger says that he did not actively participate in the siege, but only occasionally and hesitantly), his name is positioned on the top of the list of the commanders in the infobox, while local Ottoman-Albanian commanders are not mentioned at all, except Balaban. On the other hand, Skanderbeg's name is at the top of the list although he was not in the besieged fortress at all. According to the Babiner, the commander of the besieged forces was Venetian officer, Baldazarre Perducci. He is totally forgotten in the infobox. Instead, there is only Moneta mentioned on the bottom of the list, although he was not in the besieged fortress but in relief forces. The same comparation could be done with other articles, like i.e. Siege of Svetigrad (1448). That was also a big defeat of Skanderbeg's men, and Skanderbeg is again positioned on the bottom of the list with clear remark that he only led the relief force, while real commander of the besieged town is positioned at the top. ✅ Baldazarre Perducci is added to the infobox, ❌ other part of the issue remained non-attained
 * 13) Important assertion about the number of the Ottoman soldiers is not referenced at all. (except in case of rumours Venetians have heard) - ✅ ❌ - The number of 30,000 is referenced, but the number of 100,000 remained on rumor level. To illustrate how wrong is to ignore arguments based on reliable sources and to overestimate the size of the Ottoman army I will present the number of Ottoman soldiers in much bigger and much more important battles against the coalitions of many strong medieval countries and empires or the whole crusading armies: Battle of Kosovo: 27,000—40,000, Battle of Nicopolis: 12,000—15,000, Battle of Kosovo (1448): 40,000 — 60,000, Battle of Varna: 60,000, ...
 * 14) Dhimitër Frëngu article says that he was Skanderbeg's scribe who accompanied him to his journey to Rome. If that is true, maybe this can be added to the article. ❌ but I guess it is not so important

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

A lot of your suggestions are irrelevant so I skipped many. However, I have decided to implement the good ones.

Just a note, both Schmitt and Frasheri concur that it was John who went to the court of Venice. Neither mention how young he was, but I assume he played mainly a symbolic role and the real negotiations were done by the older men. Also, the destruction of Rodon happened after the next siege of Kruje.

Additional issues
 * 1)  By the beginning of May... None of the promised reinforcements from Naples and Venice arrived and Skanderbeg was thus left to fight Ottoman forces only with the league's troops. - Incorrect. Babinger emhasize that Venetian forces were already inside Kruje in February 1466 and that Venetian senate ordered Venetian providorre in Albania to personally organize defense of Kruje ("...probably as early as February Ballaban pitched the camp outside Kruje...the Venetian providorre received orders from Signoria to direct the defensive operations in person. The commander in Kruje was Baldassare Perducci....".
 * 2) The infobox presents this siege as part of the larger group of wars (Ottoman wars in Europe) although Template:Infobox military conflict clearly say "For battles or campaigns, this should be the war during which the event takes place" (which is Ottoman–Venetian War (1463–1479)) and only "For wars, the parameter may be used to link to a larger group of wars"
 * 3) The location parameter of the infobox links to the Republic of Albania, established 500 years after this siege
 * 4) "Combatants should be listed in order of importance to the conflict, be it in terms of military contribution, political clout, or a recognized chain of command." Combatants are not listed in order of importance of the conflict. Baldassare Perducci was commander of the garrison, and he is placed below Tanush Thopia who was subordinate to Perducci. On the other hand, Mehmed II has not significantly contributed to the siege which was organized by Ballaban from February 1466 to April 1467. Still Ballaban was positioned below Mehmed II.
 * 5) units1/units2/units3 parameters are not used, though it could be useful to the readers to explain the structure of the besieged forces

Independent Albania

 * The economic, social and political organization of the Independent Albania is subject of seminar organized by the Luigj Gurakuqi University in Shkodër


 * During the two years of the independent existence of Albania, 1912-1914, the only neighborly relations that existed between her and her Slav neighbors have been in the form of continuous border warfare, the subjected Albanians striving"


 * "Albania emerged for the first time in the modern world as an independent and sovereign state on November 28, 1912"




 * Shteti Shqiptar
 * Shqipënia e Lirë

The Balkan Wars 1912-1913 by Jacob Gould Schurman, Princeton University Press, Princeton, London, Humphrey Milford, Oxfod University Press 1914


 * Albania, till 1912-13 a western province of European Turkey, thereafter, with diminished area (c. 12000 sq.m.), an independentkingdom, extends along the western shore of the Balkan Peninsula, from theriver Bojana to Cape Stylos


 * By the Treaty of London, which concluded this campaign, nearly the whole of Servia's share of the spoils was made into the state of Albania.


 * As is known, this failure persisted well beyond the Middle Ages, since there was no Albanian state before 1912.


 * But instead of standing by Serbia, we took part in Bulgarian adventures, and now we were going to indulge in the luxury or the joke of founding a principality in Albania. - Alfred III, Prince of Windisch-Grätz


 * Defeat in detail: the Ottoman Army in the Balkans, 1912-1913


 * After four years of sporadic fighting, the Turkish government agreed, in September 1912, to create an autonomous Albanian state consisting of the provinces of Jannina, Monastir, Shkoder, and Kosovo. The future of the new Albanian state


 * consisting of the provinces of Jannina, Monastir, Shkoder, and Kosovo. The future of the new Albanian state


 * "At least seven local "governments" vied for power. The main rivals were Ismail Kemal, supported by Austria, and Essad Pasha Toptani, a Muslim feudal landlord who was supported by Serbia."


 * Proglas koji je 16. oktobra 1912. potpisalo „Crno dru{tvo“ glasio je: „Crno dru{tvo“, kao predstavnik albanskog naroda, ima ~ast da vas obavesti da se albanski narod ne bori da u~vrsti tursku dominaciju na Balkanu, ve} da zauzme celu albansku teritoriju. I zato, kakav god ishod rata bio, Albanci ne}e nikad prihvatiti ~etiri uprave nad ~etiri vilajeta, ve} samo jednu zajedni~ku vladu

Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy exploited discontent of Albanians with inaccurate ethnic borders of Albania.

The biggest group of Albanians who were left outside of the new state after delineation of the boundaries were Albanians from Kosovo, the cradle of the 19th century Albanian nationalism.

Football and Skanderbeg
According to Harry Hodgkinson and Fan S. Noli, Skanderbeg significantly contributed to the development of the football during middle ages.
 * Fan Stylian Noli - George Castroiti Scanderbeg (1405-1468): which they sold to the Constantinople urchins to play football with in the streets
 * Harry Hodgkinson - The Adriatic Sea : The heads of Albanian soldiers were sent back to be used as footballs by children in the streets of Constantinople.

Drivast
A statute of Drivast contained certain articles aimed against Albanians who were not were not allowed to build house or any other building in the district or to posses pronia in town or district without getting appropriate licence from the commune.

Skanderbeg in epic poetry on Serbian language
Skanderbeg was glorified in the folk songs of Montenegro and Herzegovina, like in those recorded by Sima Milutinović Sarajlija and published in 1837.

Skanderbeg is mentioned in many works of members of House of Petrović-Njegoš. Vasilije III Petrović-Njegoš mentions him in his History about Montenegro (Историја о Црној Гори) published in 1754. Petar I Petrović-Njegoš wrote about Skanderbeg in his Short History of Montenegro (Кратка Историја Црне Горе) published in 1835. Skanderbeg is also mentioned by Prince of Montenegro, Petar II Petrović-Njegoš, one of the greatest poets of Serbian literature, in his poem The Mountain Wreath (1847), and in False Tsar Stephen the Little (1851).

Dorotej and Skanderbeg
Godinu dana posle bitke kod Ohrida, Mehmed II je bio ljut posle neusposnog pohoda u Albaniji pa je naredio da se odredjeni broj hriscanskih stanovnika ohrida, arhiepskop i njegovi saradnici isele u Istanbul i Anadoliju.


 * The perversion of the church into a mosque was certainly a punitive measure by the Turkish authorities against the rising in which Archbishop Dorotej took part.
 * On Sis way to Albania Turkish Sultan Mehmed II came to Ohrid in 1466 and proclaimed as outlaws all of its most respected citizens together with Ohrid archbishop Dorotej since they took part in an uprising against Turks.
 * All Albanian cities belonged to Ohrid Archbishopric.
 * Една година подоцна, по неуспешниот обид да ја освои Албанија, Мехмед Втори на враќање, во Охрид, сомневајќи се де- ... болјарите и, веројатно, граѓаните, шуруваат со остана- тите Албанци, го сменил охридскиот архиепископ Доротеј и за + Една година подоцна, по неуспешниот обид да ја освои Албанија, Мехмед Втори на враќање, во Охрид, сомневајќи се дека црквата, болјарите и, веројатно, граѓаните, шуруваат со останатите Албанци, го сменил охридскиот архиепископ Доротеј... property of those who were deported to Anadolia was awarded to newly populated Turks.
 * very important!
 * ibidem
 * Проект на Павле Мавроцен за преземање експедиција про- тив османлиите. 59 1466 год. Султан Мухамед II, на враќање од Кроја, минал низ Охрид и ги повел со себе охридскиот архиепископ Доротеј и многу феудалци, заради меѓусебни кавги

Starac dana kao osoben ikonografski motiv zografa Onufrija u Kosturu

Myth of Skanderbeg

 * John Demus : Conferences and Studies on Skanderbeg
 * "his mother Serbian, his wife Greek" - John Demus

The purpose of the national Myth of Skanderbeg was to provide Albanians with national identity and to underpin the justification for the establishment of Albania as independent state.

Works about 15th century anti-Ottoman uprisings in Albania presented Skanderbeg as mythical hero.

Skanderbeg is most important mythical hero of the Albanian nationalism. National myth was personified by Skanderbeg.

Presenting Skanderbeg as national hero was also a result of the efforts of both communist and post-communist Albanian historiography to present Albania's anti-Islamic past by producing Christian myths. Feudal rebel was portrayed by Albanian nationalist myth-makers as the biggest icon of both Marxist and Christian nationalists.

Myth of Skanderbeg has been preserved in Albanian literature and culture until modern times.

Raising the flag
There are several articles with claims about "raising the flag of Albania/Skanderbeg for the first time after almost five centuries":
 * Battle of Deçiq - It was in this battle that the Flag of Albania was raised for the first time after 442 years of Ottoman occupation. Before this battle, the Albanian flag was last flown in 1480, when the Castle of Shkodra had fallen to the Turks - the battle happened at April 6, 1911
 * Albanian Declaration of Independence - Ismail Qemali waved the national flag of Albania, from the balcony of the Assembly of Vlorë, in the presence of hundreds of Albanians. This flag was sewn after Skanderbeg's principality flag, which had been used more than 400 years earlier. (?)

Myth of Albanian Indifference to Religion
The Myth of Albanian Indifference to Religion together with Myth of Skanderbeg, and Myth of Albanian Origins and Priority are incorporated by Albanian nationalists into the territorial claims of Albanian nation state. Albanian nationalists glorified " the ancestors' cult" and connected it with Skanderbeg as one of ancestors whose territory Albanians inherited. Skanderbeg is therefore utilized as symbol of the meaning of the Albanian nation: nation who inherited the right to live on land inherited from Illyrians via Skanderbeg. That meaning was proclaimed to legitimize claims that Albanian nation state should include all areas which was populated by Albanian speaking people for centuries because Albanians inherited those territories from their Illyrian ancestors via Skanderbeg. The fact that those ancestors had different religion is ignored in such claims because the sanctity of Albanian language underlined the Albanian indifference toward religion.


 * The text in below described source says: Some historians have claimed that Scanderbeg formed an alliance with Vladislav but this have been proved false, ...
 * It looks like Kenneth Setton changed his opinion after he published History of the Crusades? Or maybe he wrote and published some volumes of Crusades after he wrote some volumes of Papacy which contain information about his intention to participate in Second Battle of Kosovo? Maybe it was only intention, but not serious attempt?
 * But no he explained everything on the page 73 ("Francisc Pall has shown that most accounts of Scanderbeg's career during the years of 1443—1444 owe far more to fancy than to fact") and in the note number 122 on page 73 of his work. "...Pal's articles should be read before Barletius... The spurious correspondence of July and August 1443, between Ladislas and Scanderbeg (made up by Barletius, who should assigned it to the year 1444) is reprinted in Radonić Đurađ Kastriot Skenderbeg pp. 5-7"
 * But no he explained everything on the page 73 ("Francisc Pall has shown that most accounts of Scanderbeg's career during the years of 1443—1444 owe far more to fancy than to fact") and in the note number 122 on page 73 of his work. "...Pal's articles should be read before Barletius... The spurious correspondence of July and August 1443, between Ladislas and Scanderbeg (made up by Barletius, who should assigned it to the year 1444) is reprinted in Radonić Đurađ Kastriot Skenderbeg pp. 5-7"

Interesting text about communism in Yu
Pišeš samo šta tebi odgovara,evo kratko pojašnjenje "pesnice" i tko ju je sačinjavao. Komunisti se udružuju 1920,u Vukovaru.Nakon što su se pojavili Slovenci koji su odbijali doči u Beograd. Nisu htjeli doči,jer se za Srbe pričalo da su kraljevi ljudi. 1920 su i izbori u srboslaviji,komunisti pobjeđuju u Zagrebu,Slavonskom Brodu,Križevcima,Osijeku i Podgorici. Na drugom partijskom kongresu opet u Vukovaru,Srbski predstavnici se protive uvođenju građanskih prava i ravnopravnosti,te podržavaju kralja a Rusku revoluciju nazivaju ludošču.Pojavljuju se dokazi da su na kraljevom platnom spisku(provokatori). Iste godine vlada zabranjuje rad Komunističkoj Partiji,i hapsi parlamentarce na temelju akta koji se zvao Obznana.

1921 g. Komunisti ustrojavaju Crvenu Pravdu,koja organizira neuspjeli atentat na kralja,ali u drugom atentatu ubija ministra unutarnjih poslova koji je bio autor Obznane.(početak "pesnice") 1924 g. komunisti odlučuju da se Versajska Jugoslavija treba ukinuti a Slovenija,Hrvatska i Makedonija postati nezavisne države.Na istom sastanku 2,500 industrijskih radnika je organizirano u borbene čelije.("pesnica"organizirana) 1926 g. Na trečem partijskom kongresu Hrvatska,Slovenija,Makedonija,Crna Gora i Vojvodina su definirane kao zasebne države koje se žele odvojiti od Srbije. 1929 g. Usljed velikog progona komunisti počinju svoju prvu radničko-seljačku oružanu pobunu protiv srboslavije. Pobuna je završila sa velikim komunističkim žrtvama.Đuro Đaković jedan od poznatijih.

1934 g. Na sastanku u LJubljani komunisti pozivaju na raspad srboslavije i zahtjevaju oslobođenje Crne Gore od Srbske okupacije.U kolovozu iste godine komunisti predstavljaju svoj prvi slogan Slaba Srbija-Jaka Jugoslavija. 1937 g. Staljin zove vodeče Srbske komuniste u Moskvu,i daje ih pogubiti iste godine.

1940 g. Na sastanku u Zagrebu komunisti izdaju proglas,u kojem obečavaju obranu nezavisnosti Jugoslavije svim sredstvima,u nadolazečem ratu.("pesnica") 1941 g. Srboslavija pristupa hitleru. 1941 g. Komunisti organiziraju uspješan puč,po novoj povijesti uz Englesku i Rusku pomoč,iako ja mislim da su to napravili sami. 10.04.1941 g. Tito organizira ratnu vladu u Zagrebu koja če se boriti za nacionalnu i socijalnu slobodu. 1945 g. Tito pobjeđuje i proglašava Bratstvo i Jedinstvo SVIH naroda

Gdje ti tu vidiš Kozarsku seljačku "pesnicu",ili da su Srbi bili ta "pesnica" je meni totalna misterija,ali šta ja znam kad smo mi svi kuhari,a Srbi junaci. :mrgreen: