User:ArtifexMayhem/sandbox01

=Talk:Climate change skeptic= (page permalink)

Misdirected
(section permalink)

I believe it is wrong to direct this to climate change denial, it implies to people they are the same. It is a pity there is no really good article on this but I think one of the following is probably better
 * Global warming controversy
 * Public opinion on climate change
 * Climate change consensus

I think Global warming controversy is probably the most appropriate target. Dmcq (talk) 19:34, 27 December 2010 (UTC) 
 * ...That post was from 4 years ago, and Dmcq no longer holds that position.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 18:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

As the climate change denial now discusses in some detail, the labels generally apply to the same thing. It's implied that there may be some instances where a Climate change skeptic doesn't come under the heading of denial, but specific examples are lacking and that's something to resolve on the climate change denial article with good sources. There certainly doesn't seem to be enough difference to justify what could easily become a povfork. . . dave souza, talk 18:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC) 
 * See here. I have no idea what your last sentence is supposed to mean. I also see no attempt on your part to actually discuss the dispute or respond to others. Climate change denial discusses "climate change skepticism" explicitly by name. Why would it not be the appropriate target?  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 20:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

 
 * This isn't a question of neutrality. It's a question of what article discusses the topic. Climate change denial discusses this topic, does it not? The words "climate change skepticism" are bolded in the 2nd sentence of the lead. Your assessment of consensus is obviously incorrect; unfortunately, this discussion is taking place on about 5 separate talk pages, and in none of them has a relevant objection been raised. If you dislike the wording of the hatnote, you should discuss that on the article where it appears.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 21:24, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * This assesment is entirely incorrect and smacks of tendentious editing, evidenced by the edit warring against multiple editors. It is clearly not a neutral redirect. It is disrupting in order to make a point. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Can you please respond to what I'm actually saying? Does climate change denial discuss the topic of "climate change skepticism" or not? Pointing to WP:NPOV isn't a rationale for redirecting to the wrong topic.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 03:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The onus is upon you to achieve consensus for your proposed edit. Multiple editors do not presently agree that you are correct in your edit. They have expressed why. While avoiding WP:SOAPBOX, it is incumbent upon you to explain why this edit is a better redirect. Capitalismojo (talk) 03:37, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The strategy I've seen repeatedly from now several editors of shouting loudly there is no consensus, meanwhile dodging any attempts to discuss or achieve consensus, is beyond unhelpful. This isn't a vote. Please address the points being made. Does climate change denial discuss the topic of "climate change skepticism"? Yes or no.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 03:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)


 * What doesn't make sense? The question is fairly straight forward. Does the article climate change denial discuss "climate change skepticism"?  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 19:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Pete, your preferred in-universe option clearly doesn't have consensus, and it's a good question: WP:R applies. . .dave souza, talk 19:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with Dave that WP:R applies here. I would strongly suggest that skeptic and denial is not the same thing. This edit is POV and the and the editwarring has essentially acknowledged it. The purpose is to deprecate skeptic into denial (described at that article as ignoring the Truth based on financial or ideological reasons). That is to say this edit seeks to push readers looking for a neutral article on "skeptic" towards an article that talks about (financially or idologically corrupt) deniers. Hardly NPOV and a redirect that would be of great surprise to an ordinary reader. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:22, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * By the way, the idea that the denial article has a small section on skeptic doesn't mitigate the NPOV problem or the WP:R guideline in my opinion. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:25, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * So here's the problem... you apparently dislike our treatment of this topic on the appropriate page, and so therefore want to redirect somewhere else instead. That's not a valid rationale. Climate change denial doesn't have a "small section"; the entire article is devoted to the topic, which is introduced in the very second sentence, by name, in bold. Sources back up that coverage, and "neutrality" means following the sources. No one is saying that "climate change denial" and "climate change skepticism" are precisely the same thing; we are saying that this article discusses this topic in depth, so it is obviously the correct target. Your dislike of our content should be discussed at its talk page, and you're welcome to propose the article be split in two, provided you can back up the change in reliable sources. In the meantime, we have to direct our readers to the right place. If they arrive at climate change denial mistakenly, we have a hatnote linking global warming controversy at the very top, so they can easily find their way to that article as well. In short, "article X isn't neutral" doesn't mean we can misdirect everything that links to it, instead of fixing the underlying neutrality problem (if there even is one).  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 21:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * So here's the problem...this is an article talk page where we discuss the article. This is not where we discuss editors. Please WP:FOC focus on content not on battlegrounding with other editors. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:17, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Huh? Where did I discuss an editor? Your rationale was that the hatnote at the appropriate page does not encapsulate the topic, right? If so, then change the hatnote. If not, then you need to be clear what your objection really is.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 14:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Denial problem
(section permalink)


 * As shown at that article, climate change skepticism is a label for the same thing as climate change denial. You are of course welcome to provide good sources to improve that article. . dave souza, talk 14:35, 28 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Good sources at Climate change denial disagree with your thoughts, which appear to be original research. To be specific, climate scepticism commonly means climate denialism or contrarianism. Note the assessment that "Not all individuals who call themselves climate change skeptics are deniers. But virtually all deniers have falsely branded themselves as skeptics." Some referenced detail about the former group would be welcome. . dave souza, talk 16:54, 5 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Perhaps those in the right-wing denialosphere think academics are disposed to share beliefs: after all reality has a well-known liberal bias. However, our task is to give due weight to high quality WP:SOURCES. . . . dave souza, talk 14:40, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Is all skepticism an organized campaign? Is it unequivocally denial?
(section permalink)

If skepticism unequivocally denial (campaigns to undermine public confidence in scientific opinion on climate change) then we must have the redirect point at the denial article.

If it is not, if skepticism is related to legitimate debate or skepiticism then we must per WP:R direct it towards global warming controversy. From the top of the denial page ("This article is about campaigns to undermine public confidence in scientific opinion on climate change. For the public debate over scientific conclusions, see global warming controversy.") That sums up the issue. If all skeptism is part of a sinister campaign, if all debate or skepticism about the issue is merely an effort to "undermine public confidence" then by all means we must redirect this towards the denial article. Otherwise we should point it towards the public debate article. Capitalismojo (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Your dislike of the hatnote should be discussed on Talk:Climate change denial, where they're using the hatnote. It's not relevant here. The only question here is: "what article discusses this topic?" Does Global warming controversy discuss "climate change skepticism"? Because that term doesn't appear in the article even once.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 21:58, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't dislike the hatnote. I embrace the hatenote. Projecting imagined motivations and emotions onto other editors is entirely wrong..."to assume is to make an ..." Please WP:FOC focus on content. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:12, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS We can discuss whatever is appropriate for this article per the guidelines applicable to this article. Efforts to close off and end discussion is inappropriate. It also cleverly addresses none of the points above. Redirect guidelines and application of them are directly relevant here. Capitalismojo (talk) 22:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
 * False dichotomy. All good scientists apply scientific skepticism, thus mainstream scientists are skeptics and Skeptical Science is correctly named, but the label climate change skeptic is used for those trying to undermine public confidence in scientific opinion on climate change, whether the very existence of climate change, the attribution of global warming to human causes, or the impact of global warming. These are also the characteristics of what's called climate change denial, as discussed in the climate change denial article. For example, the "skeptical scientists" Fred Singer, Fred Seitz and Patrick Michaels are directly involved in campaigns to undermine public confidence in the science, as are non-scientist "skeptics" such as Watts and "the Senate's most vocal global warming skeptic, Jim Inhofe." Of course if you find a reliable source for someone explicitly labelled a "Climate change skeptic" with no connection to campaigns to undermine public confidence in scientific opinion on climate change, we can include that in the article and think about rewording the header. . . dave souza, talk 13:49, 28 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Given the lack of any proper sources for the claimed "legitimate debate", I'll restore the redirect to the article that deals directly with the meaning of this term. Please discuss before reverting again÷ to a confusing redirect. . dave souza, talk 14:42, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Tsk, you're missing the well sourced point: you should always discuss before reversion, and you've still failed to provide any source for your argument. Skepticism in this specific context is a label for the same thing as climate change denial, as that article shows. Your redirect merely leaves readers puzzled about the topic, and isn't appropriate. So, please desist from edit warring to push your unsourced preference. . dave souza, talk 15:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It's worth noting, again, that the phrase "undermine public confidence..." comes from the hatnote, and objections to specific wording of the hatnote should be discussed on the article where the hatnote appears. It is not grounds to change this redirect. Not one objection to the article content has been raised, nor has anyone made a claim that climate change denial does not discuss this topic explicitly. The claim that climate change skepticism is not connected to climate change denial is, of course, contradicted by sources which are expounded upon in the lead of the appropriate article.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 16:09, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

 
 * NOTE
 * (prev) 19:16, 25 June 2015‎ Peter Gulutzan (Undid revision 668610757 by Mann jess (talk). See talk page.)
 * (prev) 15:29, 28 June 2015‎ Peter Gulutzan (Undid revision 669050217 by Dave souza (talk) per talk, restore link to properly sourced discussion in article)
 * (prev) 14:11, 1 July 2015‎ Peter Gulutzan (Undid revision 669402130 by Vsmith (talk). Restore appropriate target)
 * Have you read the 2nd sentence of climate change denial, where it mentions "climate change skepticism" in bold? There are two sources there, and more in the body.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 16:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

 WP:NOTFORUM. That it survived AFD means it was deemed notable by the community. You're welcome to create any other articles you think are lacking coverage, but it looks like content for climate change skepticism was merged into other articles a few years back. &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 17:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Centralized discussion plus list of redirected pages
(section permalink)

In light of the discussion above and at Talk:Global warming skeptic, there's a preference that this page is used for centralized discussion about the various redirect pages on this general topic. Please discuss proposals here before changing these redirects. Thanks, dave souza, talk 15:00, 28 June 2015 (UTC)   
 * Since these redirects apparently go to the page which deals directly with the issues and terminology, they should not be changed to misdirect readers to another page which you may feel is more sensitive to the minority viewpoint, but not one which actually defines the words and discusses the terms. In due course, other pages like this one should also redirect to climate change denial. Thanks, dave souza, talk 19:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
 * As climate change skeptic is used primarily by those who oppose various aspects of the current climate change or global warming for political or economic reasons and not for the scientists involved in the research, the redirect should be to the article which discusses this false skepticism. As such I've changed the redirect to point to that article. Vsmith (talk) 23:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Yes, by now we know that's your opinion. But you should really read WP:NPOV; something being "neutral" means it reflects the sources, not the opinions of our editors. The link between climate change denial and climate change skepticism is quite clear in our sources, which is why the climate change denial article covers that link so prominently, and presents material on this topic. If you have sources which contest that link, you should present them at that article.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 03:07, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll note that edit warring to redirect back to global warming controversy is still occurring, despite the fact that a reasonable justification has not been provided here. So far, the rationale for that link have been: 1) personal preference, 2) dislike of the hatnote on climate change denial, with no attempts to change the hatnote, 3) vague pointers to WP:NPOV, with no list of sources or explanation of why the link would contravene sources, 4) claims that global warming controversy is "less vicious" (and the like), which is not a metric for determining a redirect. Consensus indicates that the redirect should point to the article which discusses this topic explicitly, by name. If the edit warring without discussion continues, we're going to have to seek other methods of resolving this conflict. Please stop and discuss.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 14:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * Your reply does not address any of the points being made. "There's been more than that" doesn't tell me anything. NPOV concerns sourcing, so when you say "it's not neutral", you are saying "it does not reflect the sources". What sources are being overlooked or misinterpreted? If you have any, present them at Talk:Climate change denial for inclusion. I've asked, and not one has been furnished. I've explained repeatedly that consensus is not a vote, so tallying editors who voted each way is a waste of time. I also have no obligation to tally up votes for you; if you'd like to look through this short discussion and do that yourself, you are of course more than welcome to. Several editors have pointed to policies and sources and article content to back up the obvious redirect to climate change denial (which discusses the subject of "climate change skepticism" explicitly by name), and so far the only objections to that redirect have not furnished a substantive argument. Yes, that means consensus.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 21:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * You said it is "non neutral". What sources are being overlooked or misinterpreted?  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 14:55, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * 1) if there are BLPs where the label "climate change skeptic" is not sourced, or this link is inappropriately provided, it should be removed. I am not aware of any BLP vios relating to this redirect. Can you point me to any? 2) still no indication of what is "not neutral" about it relative to wikipedia's definition of neutral. The content at climate change denial is amply sourced, and you have provided no contrary sources. No one has claimed the wikipedia article is, itself, a source, obviously. 3) "Several users have supported"–and you have ignored their support–the link to climate change denial. This isn't a vote. Why have editors supported global warming controversy? 4) I have no idea what you mean about the article being a dictionary. It is clearly not a dictionary. If you have a problem with its compliance with WP:NOTDICT, you should discuss that at its talk page.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 14:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">

Skeptics as synonym for climate change deniers
(section permalink)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * Hi Pete, your assertions about my motives and actions are false, please desist from personal attacks based on nothing more than your attempts at mind-reading. . . dave souza, talk 15:24, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Please indicate to me where I've shown a preference to label all skeptics as deniers. You've made an explicit claim above that I have done so. Please provide a diff. To your other claim that skepticism and denial being related is only the opinion of Duncan, the sourcing of climate change denial shows that to be untrue. Dunlap and Timmer are cited prominently for that position, and additional detailed coverage of the terms cite others, including Gelbspan, Weart, the NCSE, and more. However, even if your claim were true, the fact remains that climate change denial discusses the subject of "climate change skepticism", while global warming controversy does not. A redirect must obviously point to the place where the subject is clearly discussed. The idea that I've "resumed edit warring" when I'm here discussing the subject on the talk page after PG made 9 reverts is obviously ludicrous. I understand that you dislike the climate change denial article. That's not a reason to change redirects to the wrong target.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 22:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * So, no specifics. I provided a list of sources, and you're still saying "NPOV vio" without any details. You haven't answered a single question I asked.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 06:55, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * And in addition to no specifics, you've resumed edit warring to your preferred version here and here, meanwhile accusing two other editors of edit warring. Awesome.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 02:25, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * What question have I refused to answer? I explained quiet clearly that I'm not under any obligation to count votes for you, and that vote counting wasn't a part of my assessment of consensus. The quote about BLP vios is a question I asked you, and you never answered! I'm still not aware of any BLP vios introduced by pointing this redirect at climate change denial. Since that was a part of your rationale, can you please point me to any? I also asked you to point me to sources that are being overlooked or misrepresented, in order to back up your claim that there is a NPOV vio. Can you do that, please? I fail to see any neutrality issue, and you haven't backed it up. Thanks.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 15:10, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * ...so, you didn't say the redirect to climate change denial could create issues with BLPs, or that it wasn't neutral? Terrific! So there isn't a BLP or NPOV violation. Unfortunately, that means I don't remotely understand your rationale. Can you please explain in a different way why you think climate change skepticism, for example, should not direct readers to a page that is devoted to discussing "climate change skepticism"? Thanks.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 15:23, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * Climate change denial is not a BLP. So there are two possible interpretations I see for your objection: 1) The redirect causes a BLP vio somewhere else. I asked for examples of this, because I don't know of any. 2) BLP is not actually a factor, your concern is actually about sourcing, and you're trying to apply WP:BLP sourcing standards for some reason. I asked for examples of sources which were overlooked or misinterpreted, so I could understand your sourcing concern. So far, no BLP vios have been presented, and no sourcing errors have been identified. You've complained about Timmlan being used, but you've overlooked the multitude of sources I listed in this discussion (also cited in the article) that draw the same connection: Weart, Dunlap, Timmlan, Gelbspan, and the NCSE. I can add to my list (Painter/Ashe, Oneill/Boykoff, Anderegg/Prall/Harold, Gillis, and more). The list includes journalists, sociologists, historians, climatologists and other researchers, and every one is cited in the article. You say we must be careful with citations. We have been. If you feel we have not, you need to identify a specific area to be improved, and you need to provide sources to back up your claim.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 15:51, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * I have no problem providing links if you're having trouble finding these in the article. Nerlich, Dunlap, Timmer, Painter & Ashe, NCSE, Weart, Oneil & Boykoff, Anderegg, Prall & Harold, Gillis. I'll add: Jenkins, Eubanks, Mann. Please stop saying "all skeptics are deniers" - that isn't what we're discussing. I don't see any basis to throw all these sources out as "worthless". And your accusation about Gelbspan is nonsense.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 15:22, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> Hi Peter, if you're not going to stop saying things which appear to be comments on the behaviour of other editors, provide diffs. Otherwise, just stop. Ha, clarification. the phrase "all skeptics are deniers" came from Pete Tillman, 19:55, 1 July 2015.diff He was asked for a diff the same day,diff but AFAIK he's yet to provide one. Don't think Ross Gelbspan ever said it, if so please provide a citation. [re Gelbspan's qualifications, perhaps you feel all sources should meet these standards? ;-) added 16:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)] The sources Mann Jess lists reaffirm that both terms are commonly used as synonyms, but that's not the unrealistic absolute you seem to be demanding. To quote the CSI, "Not all individuals who call themselves climate change skeptics are deniers. But virtually all deniers have falsely branded themselves as skeptics." The latter should clearly be covered in the climate change denial article, I've yet to see sources identifying the former. . . dave souza, talk 15:24, 7 July 2015 (UTC) <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * Peter, why would "more than a BA" be necessary to qualify his book as a source? He's an award-winning journalist, including the Pulitzer, with a 31-year career. The idea that he "lacks professional qualifications" is insane. Do you mean to say he's not a climatologist? Because those appear in my list too.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 16:16, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Also, can you please point me to the guideline which indicates a redirect between terms indicates the terms are synonyms? Thanks.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 16:47, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * I have always thought that WP:REDIR "closely related words" applied to climate change skepticism and climate change denial for the simple reason 0that the few RSs I have read front to end that actually parse these words always use at least some compare-and-contrast to explain them, and nearly always say there is enormous overlap between them. Its true they are often used as synonyms.  Its true that deniers try to rebrand themselves as skeptics.  Its true that a few sources distinguish the meaning and provide criteria by which one can attempt to analyze which one applies.  But all the sources that go into both in any detail always do so in a way that screams "closely related". NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:41, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Correct. They are closely related, and sometimes used as synonyms, but they are not always synonyms. The suggestion that redirecting this page to another necessarily means they are synonyms is not a view based in policy or guideline, as far as I can tell. Redirecting this page to global warming controversy doesn't mean that a "climate change skeptic" is a synonym for a type of controversy. WP:REDIR lists purpose #14 (purpose, not exception) as "...other topics which are described or listed within a wider article", and that seems to precisely fit this case.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 02:16, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Regarding Gelbspan, his work won the Pulitzer, according to several sources, not him by name. Your claim that he lacks professional qualifications is still nonsense, and I see no basis in policy that we reject a source because he "only" has a BA. You're welcome to point me to it if I've overlooked something.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 02:31, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> Are you suggesting "climate change skeptic" and "global warming controversy" are synonyms? Or that any of those words are as related as "Symbiont | Symbiosis"? I asked you to stop saying "all skeptics are deniers" because that's not what we're discussing. I have repeatedly told you that all skeptics are not deniers, so you continuing to insist I've failed to source that idea to Gelbspan is tiring. We are discussing your and Tillman's claim that there is a neutrality issue with covering "climate change denial" and "climate change skepticism" together in one article. Many sources (including Gelbspan, and 12 others I've listed) discuss the terms together and define them as related. Again, what sources have been overlooked or misrepresented? &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 15:14, 8 July 2015 (UTC) <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * 'Opposed to making Climate change skepticism into a redir to Global warming controversy; I've said why in at least 3 places most recently in a climate change denial talk thread on splitting out cc skepticism from the cc denial article. I'd be happy with a rename of Climate change denial --->>>> Climate change skepticism and denial with RS based text that distinguishes the type of skepticism that is an inherent part of the scinetific endeavor from the fake kind that is synonymous with denial, as I described in the thread I just linked to.  Indeed, compare-and-contrast seems to be the only way to neutrally present any of these concepts.   Another reason for not redirecting to Global warming controversy is because that article isn't quite sure what it means to be.  At times it has been a place to steer eds wanting to advocate for abundantly debunked GW myths (or so I was told I think by WMC maybe in 2012), and I've been in on discussions where people have claimed its for the open questions flagged in the professional literature.  But I don't think we really know what its supposed to be, other than a pressure relief amalgamation of stuff.   Such an article is a poor target for a redir. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:43, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

@PG Redirecting to global warming controversy is a compromise? Huh? Who did you compromise with? What was it a compromise from? I'm utterly baffled you are saying you and Tillman have not claimed there is a neutrality issue with our coverage at climate change denial. You have both repeatedly used the words "neutral" when opposing the redirect to it; Tillman explicitly said there were NPOV vios. I've made several efforts to ask you questions and repeat back what you're saying to be sure I've heard you correctly, but every time I do you avoid my questions and your explanation seems to change. So, allow me to summarize where we are right now:

Global warming controversy: You, Capitalismojo and Tillman think this page should redirect to Global warming controversy. You've pointed to NPOV and BLP, but haven't explained why (or where) WP:BLP applies, and none of you have provided sourcess to back up claims of neutrality issues. I've asked for them a lot. You (PG) seem to think there are issues with some the sources in climate change denial, but those objections haven't been discussed on the article's talk page, and AFAICT, they are not grounded in policy or guideline: they include reasoning such as "[the author] lacks professional qualifications" and "[the author] is an activist", which are not barriers for sourcing, even if true. You've recently claimed that redirecting to climate change denial would violate our redirect guidelines, based on an implication you read into it, but have acknowledged you are choosing not to apply that same standard to your preference too.

Climate change denial: Me, NEG, Dave souza, and Vsmith (as well as Dmcq and Fyddlestix in edit summaries) think this page should redirect to Climate change denial. We have shown it covers the topic explicitly and in-depth, and we've provided 12 high quality sources with explicit quotes (or page numbers) which back up that coverage. More are in the article. Dave linked to redirect guidelines which indicate this page should point to the article most obviously covering the topic to cause the least confusion for readers.

Consensus, both in argument and editor count, suggest redirecting to the article devoted to the topic. If you won't engage in productive dialogue by, for example, answering questions or providing sources, then I don't know how to have a productive conversation.

Moving forward: During this conversation, you and Tillman redirected this page and about 10 others to your preference, including pages which had always gone to climate change denial, and then reverted to maintain them. If you cannot list sources which show a neutrality issue, or a BLP issue, or some other issue with that redirect, I believe we should move forward with changing them back, and implementing consensus. If you'd like to list sources, or give me examples of BLP vios, let me know and I'd be happy to look them over. &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 20:22, 8 July 2015 (UTC) <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * Point of information: Dmcq's comment at talk:CCDenial – "...I used to think that climate change skeptic should redirect to global warming controversy on the basis that if they were actual skeptics it had the details they were looking for. I'm staying away from that now as skepticism is very close to denial nowadays so I'll leave that for others to argue.. .... Global warming controversy is the place for skeptics to look up the arguments against global warming." Dmcq 09:30, 9 July . . added to this thread by dave souza, talk 11:30, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

TPG
(section permalink)

I haven't been following this lately, but would like to remind eds that NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:26, 3 July 2015 (UTC) <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * Per TPG we should try not to dwell on editor behavior at article talk pages. There are lots of other venues for behavioral commentary.
 * Also, everyone should answer each other's reasonable civil questions. See WP:DISRUPTSIGNS #4.
 * If we were at DRN, I'd ask you tp provide a numbered list of individual questions, sans analysis and personal commentary, that you claim have gone unanswered in the prior multi-venue walls of text; would you like to take time to do that now, so you have a specific DIFF to point to?  NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 15:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * @Peter G
 * Step 1 - Verbally vomit on someone else for allegedly not answering questions.
 * Step 2 - Decline to provide list of allegedly unanswered questions.
 * Step 3 - Fake a desire to work towards consensus building by calling for someone else to do the sweat labor of packaging a DR filing.
 * Meanwhile - Redact battle planning and admission
 * I'm not defending Jess. Maybe she has indeed violated WP:ARBCC somehow.  I'm just saying you're the ed who had the tirade about unanswered questions.  Fine, put up or apologize.  Make a list of questions without your spin.  Try again to invite Jess to answer.  If answers do not satisfy you and you think you are talking past each other, invite Jess to pick a DR venue, or pick one yourself and let the process go.  You stamped your feet.  It's your job to do the DR sweat to show you are here to work towards consensus. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 12:56, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * DRN request has been launched. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:58, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Rats, I posted at DRN which I only just realized, never havning been there, is for content disputes. I meant to seek help with a communication issue. If the matter still seems worthwhile later on I'll probably seek mediation. Meanwhile, I appreciate Jess' attempt to identify her open questions, below. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:01, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * @Jess, it seems you've also accused Peter G of not answering "a single question I asked" so the same burden appears to be on you. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Sure. That accusation was directed at another editor, but I'm happy to provide diffs related to PG anyway <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * 1) In, I asked "Does climate change denial discuss the topic of "climate change skepticism"?"
 * 2) Peter said I didn't have a source connecting "...skepticism" and "...denial". I asked if he'd read the second sentence of climate change denial, which included several sources.
 * 3) Peter said the redirect was "non-neutral". I clarified that was a question about sourcing, and asked what sources had been overlooked or misinterpreted.
 * 4) Peter said there were BLP concerns. I said I was unaware of any BLP vios introduced by the redirect, and asked him to point me to one.
 * 5) In the same diff (and others), I asked why editors were supporting a redirect to global warming controversy, when it did not discuss "climate change skepticism" explicitly. I also indicated confusion on several other topics, including:
 * 6) the existence of any contrary sources
 * 7) why WP:BLP would apply to climate change denial, or a redirect to it
 * 8) why climate change denial appeared to him to be a dictionary
 * 9) Peter said we needed to be cautious with sourcing. I indicated we had been, and asked for a specific area he wanted to be improved, backed up by sources.
 * 10) However, the crux of the issue is why we would redirect climate change skepticism away from an article which is devoted explicitly to the topic, and to an article which is not, and why the list of sources at climate change denial (which I reproduced here) are insufficient to show that its content adheres to WP:NPOV.   &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 15:52, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Due to the state of the thread and no DIFF from you, puts me in the position of guessing what comment we're talking about, which I decline to do. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:42, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * Thanks for the diff. Since you refused to identify the questions you thought Jess was not answering, I still don't know which questions we're talking about. Jess' not answering might mean she is doing disruptive editing.  I've suggested various ways to move foward, notably WP:OTHERSOPINION.  As you  know, experienced mediator has offered to help, too.  Before I decide how to reply to your request, may I ask the status of your complaint that Jess wasn't answering questions? If it has not been resolved is it at least being discussed somewhere?   NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 02:15, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * What I hear just in the words and with my usual AGF is Editor A proposes to remove their own post making a vague and implicit disruptive-editing complaint about Editor B provided that Editor C agrees to remove Editor C's posts asking Editor A to engage in substantive discussion about their complaint or else remove it and/or apologize for it. If that's what you mean, then I would be glad to agree.  You've made it plain, however, that you think I am attacking you personally.  I'm not.  I'm just saying anyone who complains about another editor should "show their work" and engage in constructive dialogue to address both the content and the editor-interaction issues.  I've complained about you, and I'm showing my work - you've made a vague implied disruptive editing complaint that someone isn't answering questions.  But you won't list the questions, or talk about it constructively, or take  up on his offer to do mediation.  That's not a personal attack, but a summary of the discussion.    If you write it up, I'll be glad to discuss the matter further at the DR venue of your choice. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:16, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Split "climate change denial"
(section permalink)

I just came across this, I find the Climate change denial page to be very unclear and confusing. It seems to be trying to do several things at once. It seems like several pages have been merged into it giving it several purposes. Especially with relation to different terms for climate change denial, it painfully argues the case based on arbitrary sources instead of discussing the phenomenon. As I understand it, climate skepticism is a specific form of denial. Would it not be clearer to have a climate skepticism page that essentially says: All of these things are on the denial page, but taking them off would free that page up to be clearer and simpler, about strategies used to deny climate change. The specifics of climate skepticism and be dealt with more clearly on a separate page.Mozzie (talk) 06:33, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Climate skepticism is a form of climate change denial.
 * It is a form of psuedoskepticism.
 * It is different from true scientific skepticism.
 * Hi Mozzie. Your best bet is to discuss that at Talk:Climate change denial. It should absolutely be split if we could show a significant division in coverage between the two topics in reliable sources. Right now, we have a lot of sources which cover the two labels together, define them the same way, and use them interchangeably. I'm working with a few others to clean up the article now, so if you find it confusing, feel free to hop in and help out.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 15:25, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree that it could be possible, but the two are so intertwined that coverage of "climate skepticism" and variants is needed at the "climate change denial" page: care would be needed to split the article in appropriate Summary style while not getting into the problems of Content forking. There's a lack of detail in reliable sources about which, if any, "climate skeptics" are not climate change deniers in mainstream assessment: I think we'd need that sort of detail to sustain a new article. . . dave souza, talk 20:12, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * Pete, you're in breach of WP:NPA and should really assume good faith: if there are good sources, why don't you provide them? Remember, almost by definition the so-called "climate change skeptics" are disputing the majority scientific view, so we shouldn't give their views undue weight or "equal validity". Look forward to seeing positive contributions from you. . dave souza, talk 19:26, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * WP:NPA: "Using someone's affiliations as an ad hominem means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream. An example could be" – the activist editros who have dominated the odious Denial page. . . . dave souza, talk 03:08, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">

Mediation requested
(section permalink)

FYI, I have filed a DRN request related to the claims by Jess and Peter G that each other have not answered questions. I'd like to see the list of important RS and policy based questions we're fighting over. I did not name anyone else in the filing, but if anyone wants to join in, please do. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:58, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi! I am a volunteer mediator at WP:DRN. I see that you folks are having a content dispute and may need some help resolving it. Is there any way that I can be of assistance? The best place to start when requesting dispute resolution is WP:DRR. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:44, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Guy, I think this specific request is about editor behaviour: assertions have been made without sources, and allegations have been made about edits but those making the allegations have not responded to a request for diffs. NAEG can perhaps clarify this. Not sure if the underlying content dispute is ripe for dispute resolution, or if that's the best way forward. . . dave souza, talk 17:17, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
 * At this point, I've backed away from my participation at the content level (due to real life demands) and am only really making time to try to help the process of communication. Peter and Jess both said the other wasn't answering questions.  I asked both to provide a list of the important RS and policy based questions they were each referring to.  In another thread (this page, above) Jess has attempted to present one from her perspective.  I'm hoping Peter will do likewise, and I'm hoping each will (A) work hard at meaningful reply, and (B) calmly respond to the others reply perhaps using WP:OTHERSOPINION as a way to assess mutual understanding of points of agreement and contention.  This could lead to a neutral write-up of the RS and policy based content dispute in preparation of RFC, polling, or other process of consensus building.
 * Peter?
 * NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * True, but only because I did not realize DRN is for content disputes, and I was seeking help with editor interaction issues. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:44, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Before starting a new section
(section permalink)

see the notice at the top of the page-- S Philbrick (Talk)  19:05, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * The discussion concerns redirecting to one of two pages, and Talk:Global warming controversy appears to be less trafficked than this one. Centralized discussion notices have been placed everywhere, I'm fairly certain. I don't know that moving discussion at this stage is the right step forward.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 20:26, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
 * When two groups think the redir should point to two different locations, how on earth can we decide fairly which of the competing other articles should host the discussion on the their talk page, and moreoever, how does anyone think a move would benefit consensus? The active regulars at these pages are basically the same and as has been noted there are notices everywhere.  Leave it here or show why one destination is more fair and more better than the other (cc denial or vs gw controversy).NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:50, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">
 * I added the notice at the top of the page, and the reminder here per established guideline. See Redirect. Guidelines are not absolute, but failing to follow a guideline normally requires an explanation, ideally one explaining why the guideline is an appropriate in the specific case. It looks to me like this guideline was designed to cover specifically this case.


 * This talk page is linked to a redirect. There may be traffic here now because it is left over when editors who were active on the page before conversion to a redirect had it bookmarked. However, no one is going to find this page by going to an article and then going to the talk page. I only found it because Jess linked it in a discssion on another page. Any new editors interested in Global Warming controversy or Climate change skeptic or Climate change skepticism will end up at Global warming controversy and if they then go tot he talk page, will be at Talk:Global warming controversy, not here. The fact that traffic may be higher here is an articfact of the history of the article. Going forward, new editors will be at the other page, and confused when they see edit made per talk page consensus and cannot find the discussion.


 * Jess, why are you discussing the moving on discussions? That was not proposed. The notice relates to new discussions.


 * NAEG, You said there are notices everywhere. Can you point me to one or two? I checked WP:CENTNOT and did not see one. Where else would one expect to find one? I don't see one on Talk:Global warming controversy. -- S Philbrick (Talk)  13:28, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Re "NAEG, You said there are notices everywhere. Can you point me to one or two?", good point and no I can't. I was relying what I thought Jess had said, and I did not take time to verify my understanding, either by asking Jess for confirmation or just looking for myself.  But this is easily fixed.
 * Proposal I volunteer to move the entire thread to Redirects_for_discussion and place the associated templates on the 3 affected articles. Any objection? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:53, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * That was poor wording on my part. I meant all the 10 redirects, and mentions at Talk:Climate change denial. No notice was placed at Talk:Global warming controversy to my knowledge. If you put anything at RfD, I'd recommend starting fresh, not moving existing discussion. But whatever you think will move things along, no objections from me.  &mdash; Jess &middot; &Delta;&hearts; 15:03, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I'll have no time to fiddle with any option until the weekend, so if someone else has a solution in meantime, go for it NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:36, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

UPDATE --- I'm way behind in RL. Make that next weekend. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:34, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

=Talk:Climate change skeptic= (page permalink)

Misdirected
(section permalink)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">

Denial problem
(section permalink)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">

Is all skepticism an organized campaign? Is it unequivocally denial?
(section permalink)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">

Centralized discussion plus list of redirected pages
(section permalink)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">

Skeptics as synonym for climate change deniers
(section permalink)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">

TPG
(section permalink)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">

Split "climate change denial"
(section permalink)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">

Mediation requested
(section permalink)

<div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> <div style="background-color:#faf1f0;border-left:3px solid #ca3b57;border-right:3px solid #ca3b57;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;">

Before starting a new section
(section permalink)

<div style="background-color:#fbf9cb;border-left:3px solid #efe91f;border-right:3px solid #efe91f;padding:0.1em 2em 0em 4em;margin:0;margin-left:-4em;margin-right:-2em;margin-top:0.1em;border-radius:0.33em;"> =TEMP=