User:AzorzaI/sandbox

Should "Jonima family" and "Principality of Muzaka" be included as belligerents?


 * 1) Keep both
 * 2) Keep X, exclude Y
 * 3) Exclude both.

The inclusion of "Jonima family" and "Principality of Muzaka" in the infobox raise several issues.

1. Limited presentation

All sources in the article consistently identify Moravian Serbia (under Lazar), supported by the District of Branković (Vuk Branković) and the Kingdom of Bosnia (Vlatko Vuković, sent by King Tvrtko) as the primary belligerents. Most of the sources focus solely on these belligerents, as evident in the following examples


 * "Lazar commanded the Serbs (p.409). The Bosnians fought as well, as did Vuk Brankovic. At the end of the battle, (..) the remnants of the Serbian (Lazar and Brankovic) and Bosnian (Vukovic) troops withdrew. (p.410) Thus the Serbian army was composed of three contingents under these leaders. (p.409)"


 * "On 28 June 1389 the combined Serbian forces from the territories governed by Prince Lazar and Vuk Brankovic together with auxiliary troops sent by King Tvrtko of Bosnia faced Sultan Murad and his army on the field of Kosovo"


 * "Upon recieving news of his [Murad's] approach, Prince Lazar, Vuk Brankovic, on whose land the battle was fought, and King Tvrtko, who sent a large unit under the command of Vlatko Vukovic, joined forces."

These sources do not mention any other belligerents or possible ethnic groups in Lazar's army. Additional examples can be provided if necessary during the RfC.

2. Doubts Regarding Credibility and Verification

While some sources briefly mention other ethnic groups, such mentions are based on early Ottoman accounts, raising concerns about credibility:


 * In this source, using non-Ottoman primary sources (see the NB! note below), the author Malcolm is theorizing about other ethnic groups in Lazar's army; Albanians: "An early-sixteenth-century family history of an Albanian noble family, the Muzaka (or 'Musachi'), records that Teodor Muzaka brought 'a large band of Albanians' to join Lazar's army, together with ‘other Albanian lords’, and that he was killed in the battle. Many of the other details in this memoir are verifiably accurate, so this claim may well be trustworthy too " and Hungarians; "The participation of Hungarians seems especially likely, given that Lazar had long had close relations with his northern neighbours and had married one of his daughters to a Hungarian nobleman." While the author provides some information about the involvement of Albanians and Hungarians in Lazar's army, there is uncertainty and speculation surrounding their participation. For instance, the claim that Teodor Muzaka brought a large band of Albanians to join Lazar's army lacks verifiability, as stated by the author himself. Additionally, the source fails to inform the reader whether the principality itself participated in the war or if the Albanians originated from Muzaka's domain. As a result, selectively identifying specific belligerents from this information would constitute original research. The author presecedes to end the paragraph with "But the main components of his force were probably his own men, Vuk Brankovic's, and those of the Bosnian general, Vlatko Vukovic.".

3. Unequal Treatment in Infobox Inclusion

Some sources in the article discuss belligerents not already mentioned. For instance, the source mentions the involvement of a squadron led by Ban John, in addition to Lazar, Brankovic, and Trvtko. "Apart from the predominantly Serbian army [Lazar, Brankovic], there was troops sent by Trvtko and a squadron led by Ban John." Consequently, the source further discusses Knights Hospitaller as a possible belligerent due to the involvement of Ban John. It's clear that Jonima family and Principality of Muzaka are no more deserving of inclusion in the infobox than, for instance, the Knights Hospitaller. In fact, one might argue that the Knights Hospitaller are more suited for inclusion in the infobox, given the source discuss their potential involvement as a belligerent entity, unlike the Principality of Muzaka and the Jonima family, which have simply been assumed to have participated by certain editors.

4. Breaches of infobox guidelines

The inclusion of the two Albanian belligerents in the infobox lacks necessary context, scholarly consensus, credibility, and affirmation. While the author Malcolm speculates about Muzaka's participation, there is insufficient evidence to support the claim that the entire principality participated. Furthermore, none other belligerents, except those of Lazar, Branković, and Vuković, provide concrete information about their actual involvement in the battle or the aftermath of their participation. The inclusion of Jonima family and the Principality of Muzaka in the infobox is clearly original research and does not enhance understanding and raises more questions than answers for the readers of the article. Overall, this breaches the infobox military conflict guidelines:


 * Information in the infobox should not be "controversial". Refer the reader to an appropriate section in the article or leave the parameter blank rather than make an unsubstantiated or doubtful claim


 * (..) in smaller ones [belligerents] (such as particular units, formations, or groups) may be indicated if doing so improves reader understanding.

Comment: Several sources referenced in this article draw from Ottoman primary sources. However, scholars like Malcolm and John Fine within this work have raised doubts about the reliability of such sources:


 * Malcolm : "The earliest Ottoman accounts, written in the fifteenth century, do refer to Albanians in Lazar's army; they also list many other ethnic components. One refers to mercenaries from Serbia, Albania, Bosnia and Hungary; another adds to that list soldiers from Wallachia, and Bulgarians, Czechs and 'Franks'" "But on the other hand the Ottoman writers were evidently eager to build up the size and significance of Lazar's army, which they described as vastly outnumbering Murat's, in order to add to the glory of the Turkish victory. (..)  Albanian history books claim that Balsha also took part and this is almost certainly false. The only basis for this claim is the account of the early Ottoman historian Nesri (..) These Ottoman claims are not to be trusted." John Fine : "This account by Mehmed Nesri, however, would become the major resource for subsequent descriptions of the battle, not only in the Ottoman world but in Western Europe as well. (..) He clearly intended to describe a significant Ottoman victory at Kosovo and thus exaggerated much of his narrative in order to magnify the success of the Turks." p.10'.


 * This becomes an issue when these belligerents are included in the infobox solely due to misinformation:" Based on Ottoman sources, attributes to the Albanian leaders Balsha, Jonima and Muzaka an organized Albanian contingent as numerous as one-forth of the entire Balkan coalition" . Please retain from using sources which might be based on these disputable Ottoman sources.