User:BalanceRestored/Notepad

moved from Talk:Veda

5 Vedas not 4 Vedas
There are various discussions about the veda being 5 and not 4.... The vedas are not talking about these.. Should we consider added details about those... these are mentioned by Verses of Vemana. There are many discussions about this.. http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/vov/vov11.htm

There is a mention about Pranav Veda.. any details ???

I found the narration about the 5 (five) Vedas in the following book


 * Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Poona
 * By Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute
 * Published 1928
 * The Institute Original from the University of California

"Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute" This is the place in Pune where all the ancient copies of the Vedas are kept. The topic needs to be importantly mentioned. BalanceRestored 09:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Click to check the vedic verses and the clear citation of the 5 vedas http://books.google.com/books?id=oeMvAAAAIAAJ&q=%22five+vedas%22&dq=%22five+vedas%22&pgis=1 BalanceRestored 10:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

BalanceRestored, please consult the many highly regarded books published on the Vedas (see for example this list of references), and don't base your edits to this well-developed article based on two line snippets on google books. For your information, "Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute" is a journal publication of Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, and any reference to it will require citation of the exact article title along with the authors. Also it is highly recommended incumbent that one read (and understand) any academic article completely and in its correct context before adding content from it. 19:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Your explanation is insufficient and vague, kindly quote with page numbers of the reference books you have read actually and with the exact narration. Also quote from where the narrations are taken. There are different versions about the numbers 5 or 4, and we will need to take the appropriate one only. Wikipedia is not a place for common belief I suppose. It is an encyclopedia. Also do you have any explanation about the material mentioned by Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute. Again it is very apparent from your explanation that you have not read your self the reference books. Also you have not signed the above explanation. BalanceRestored 05:37, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * See: Merriam Webster Dictionary
 * Now can you provide the title and authors for the Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute reference you cited ? Abecedare 05:44, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What is that to do with the reference. Kindly explain. Is the book published or not? Also you just referred to me Merriam Webster Dictionary, what is that to do with what you just wrote above list of references.. BalanceRestored 05:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Please click on the above Merriam Webster link!
 * Here is another quote from Michael Witzel, "Vedas and Upaniṣads" in Gavin Flood, ed. (2003), The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism, Malden, MA: Blackwell, ISBN 1-4051-3251-5. Pages 68-101.
 * "The Four Vedas are the oldest extant texts of India and contain religious and ritual poetry ..."
 * Abecedare 06:01, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * what is mentioned by the author and from where is this author quoting the reference form . I have refered about the Arthashastra mentioning about the 5 vedas.? Where is this author quoting the text from? and when what I referred is cited why are you removing the same?BalanceRestored 06:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I has also asked to mention where the narrations, the author of the book you are mentioning are been taken from. There are difference of opinions with regards to 4 or 5 which was already stated by me. I already mentioned we will need to go with the correct citation. You did not bother to explain the same.BalanceRestored 06:58, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The name of the publisher is R.N. Dhandekar at Bhandarkar Institute press BalanceRestored 07:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Newer Citations
Finally an entire book that cites and talks about the 5th Veda. I am sure the presence of the 5th Veda cannot be just ignored.

"Seer of the Fifth Veda: Krsna Dvipayana Vyasa in the Mahabharat" The text says "The Mahabharata, in any case, does not say that each pupil learned one Veda from Vyasa, but that each pupil learned all five vedas"
 * By Bruce M. Sullivan
 * Page 8, Page 88, Page 7
 * ISBN 8120816765

The text says "The Arthashastra says that there are 5 vedas and the 5th Veda is ithihasa veda"

The text says "Vyasas repeated references to Vedic texts in his description of his own composition emphasize the epic's claim to be another Veda, the fifth Veda"

BalanceRestored 09:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Bhagvat Purana Pranav Veda
"Eka eva pura vedah pranavah sarva-vangmayah" In bhagwat purana it is clearly telling about the Pranava Veda. When Bhagwan (GOD) Talk to Uddhava. The text literally means One Pranva Veda is complete and all the other veda derived from the same.

a community Vishwabrahmins in India follow the Pranava Veda. BalanceRestored 09:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Various Books Refering the Pranav Veda
The Astrology Of Personality: A Reformulation Of Astrological Concepts And Ideals In Terms of Contemporary Psychology and Philosophy.
 * By Dane Rudhyar
 * Published 2004
 * Kessinger Publishing
 * Page 128
 * ISBN 1417978465

Social Bibliography; Or, Physical Bibliography for Librarians
 * By Shiyali Ramamrita Ranganathan
 * Published 1952 University of Delhi
 * Original from the University of Michigan


 * All of this material related to the "fifth veda" is so far off the beaten track in terms of all other WP:RS on the topic that I feel the claims need to rise to meet the standard of WP:FRINGE claims. There may be some grain of truth here, but the way this material is being presented is not consistent with other sources. I would like to get the discussion here to focus on which sources of the ones presented may be considered WP:RS.  Certainly none of the astrology material by Dane Rudhyar would be included.  If the other texts are hard to locate, verification of any of this will take effort.


 * It would be helpful if we can identify one or two key Sanskrit terms by which this supposed "fifth Veda" is called, as that will assist in index lookups in standard reference sources. Is there a name of a specific text which is claimed as a Sanskrit scripture? If we can identify the name of the scripture, we can look it up in the usual reference works on such scriptures. Is "Pranava Veda" the only term to look up?  I am just beginning to search for references to this, and so far that term does not appear in the index either to Winternitz' History of Indian Literature or in The Vedic Age (Volume One of The History and Culture of the Indian People).  I am unable to find hard citation data for any of the Annals of the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute citations which you have given, so the material is at this point not verifiable.  Please refer to WP:Verifiability regarding the need to provide citations that can actually be reviewed and confirmed.  Of the three tiny fragments of text that you have cited on Google books  I can identify a specific source scripture passage in one of them, a reference to an "otherwise obscure verse of the Saṃyutta Nikāya (I.29).  According to Winternitz the  ("Collection of Grouped Discourses") is a Buddhist scripture  (volume 2, which covers Buddhist scriptures, pp. 54-60 and passim).  Aside from the fact that it would be dubious to quote a Buddhist scripture as a source for Hindu canonical organization, perhaps the discussion is being influenced by a misunderstanding of the division of the Buddhist teachings in that work into five "vaggas" or "divisions" (Winternitz, volume 2, p. 56).  I do not know if this is a factor in the issue.


 * This link to Google books may be worth looking over from the point of view of what claims are being made . That book refers to the idea of the Mahabharata as the fifth Veda, which is perhaps more of an honorific title than anything else. The Mahabharata is explicitly not included in the Vedic corpus, of course. Buddhipriya 06:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Did you read the references right? Was the google book mentioned above included in the references? BalanceRestored 07:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

This is a complete research on the presence of 5 Vedas
"Seer of the Fifth Veda: Krsna Dvipayana Vyasa in the Mahabharat" The text says "The Mahabharata, in any case, does not say that each pupil learned one Veda from Vyasa, but that each pupil learned all five vedas"
 * By Bruce M. Sullivan
 * Page 8, Page 88, Page 7
 * ISBN 8120816765

The text says "The Arthashastra says that there are 5 vedas and the 5th Veda is ithihasa veda"

The text says "Vyasas repeated references to Vedic texts in his description of his own composition emphasize the epic's claim to be another Veda, the fifth Veda"

'''Looks like you missed it. I re-edited the article using this book. Not the Google thing you mentioned.''' Kindly get the article back. Looks like you made an error unknowingly. BalanceRestored 06:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The material from that book that is available online makes it clear that he is talking about the Mahabharata as the "fifth Veda". That is an honorific idea.  It is quite possible that he makes claims for some other scriptures as being a fifth Veda as well, or perhaps there is some metaphorical point involved.  The entire body of academic study in this field organizes the Vedic corpus into the four main divisions.  Please read WP:FRINGE.  I ask for the second time, please give the Sanskrit name of a specific scripture that is being identified as the "fifth Veda".  What is it, so I can look the work up?  Either it is one of the works that is classified formally in some other way, such as the dance shastras (which I have heard called "the fifth veda" by dancers, or perhaps it is some mythical work.  But what is the title of it? Buddhipriya 07:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Did you read all the pages, I have provided the narrations. BalanceRestored 07:15, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 'Also did you read this reference from Government of India. By Mysore (India : State), "Mysore State Gazetteer:", 1965, Printed by the Director of Print., Stationery and Publications at the Govt. Press, Page 220 ''. You seemed to have ignored even this..

'''


 * A few other points to note:
 * The "Seer of the Fifth Veda" is a 1984, PhD thesis of Bruce Sullivan, and while it is interesting to read, it is hardly accepted in the mainstream given the lack of citations to it in scholarly journals or academic reviews.
 * The 1990 edition of the book is titled, "Krsna Dvaipayana Vyasa and the Mahabharata: A New Interpretation.", which demonstrates that even the author thinks of the idea of the "fifth veda" as a novel interpretation.
 * You are quoting selectively from the book; for example page 8 the book not only says, "The Mahabharata, in any case, does not say that each pupil learned one Veda from Vyasa, but that each pupil learned all five vedas" but also talks about how the Puranas have a conflicting version.
 * Another example of the author himself stating the weidely accepted version is found right at the beginning on page 2, where he writes, "He is traditionally credited with arrangement of the vedas into four texts, as well as the composition of the epic Mahabharata, many Puranas and other works", as well as, "He is credited not only with arranging the collection of the sruti ("Revelations") into the four text of the Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva Veda, but also the composition of much of the smritis ("Tradition")" (emphasis added; IAST not transcribed).
 * Also as mentioned by Buddhipriya, the the "fifth Veda" and "Pranava vedas" raise WP:FRINGE and WP:REDFLAG issues and we will need solid authoritative citations in support of such claims. Abecedare 07:28, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

The text I wrote was as follows

There are number of citations in the Vedic texts that cite the possibility of there being a fifth Veda.

This time I did not write there are Five Vedas ... I did mention possibility..

The Vishwabrahmin community in India follow the Pranava Veda, according to them is the 5th Veda. I cited the text from Government of India (is that not solid???). Any reasons for ignoring that too?BalanceRestored 07:34, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Again there are big seers in India who say the Vedas are 5, they say thing because they did study them all their lives. There are surely non-conclusive assumptions about the same. I do agree. But what's the harm mentioning what is written? Hey not everything you hear is alway true. Truth is sometimes beyond it. These books I mentioned and there are lots of citations about it.. It is important for the details to be mentioned. Any reasons why we should ignore these citations?BalanceRestored 07:45, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The "Mysore State Gazetteer", 1965 being a gazetteer, would be an excellent (though outdated) reference for the geography of Mysore, and perhaps an acceptable reference for its demographics circa. 1965. However it is far from a reliable, authoritative source on the Vedas. And again you miscited the refernce which does not mention Vishwabrahmins on page 220, but only Panchals. Abecedare 07:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I must ask that BalanceRestored comply with WP:CIVIL and stop referring to the fact that we are disagreeing with the points being raised as "ignoring" the issues. We are disagreeing that the material says what you think it does, and we do not agree that the sources are WP:RS.  You still have not answered my question regarding the actual Sanskrit titles of any works that may be involved, making it very difficult to do any sort of independent search for citations on the matter.  Your behaviour is becoming disruptive. Buddhipriya 07:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Vishwabrahmins, Vishwakarmas, Panchals are the same. Their gotras are the same. You can check and research about the same. Now the topic of discussion is not about Vishwabrahmins or Panchals, the thing you both persistantly ignored the "Government of Indias" quotations.

You mention it Panchals Or Vishwabrahmins Or Vishwakarmas What ever you feel you are comfortable with you can mention it.. Panchals, Vishwabrahmins, or Vishwakarmas. BalanceRestored 08:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * 1) Manu (blacksmith),
 * 2) Maya (carpenter),
 * 3) Thwastha (metalcraftsman),
 * 4) Silpi (stone-carver)
 * 5) Vishvajnan (goldsmith)
 * 1) Manu (blacksmith),
 * 2) Maya (carpenter),
 * 3) Thwastha (metalcraftsman),
 * 4) Silpi (stone-carver)
 * 5) Vishvajnan (goldsmith)
 * 1) Manu (blacksmith),
 * 2) Maya (carpenter),
 * 3) Thwastha (metalcraftsman),
 * 4) Silpi (stone-carver)
 * 5) Vishvajnan (goldsmith)

You have a good reason not to quote about the 5 veda that is mentioned by Government of India?BalanceRestored 08:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I repeat: The "Mysore State Gazetteer", 1965 being a gazetteer, would be an excellent (though outdated) reference for the geography of Mysore, and perhaps an acceptable reference for its demographics circa. 1965. However it is far from a reliable, authoritative source on the Vedas."
 * Spamming this page with unrelated content (as above), is not helping your cause and is disruptive. Abecedare 08:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind.. it is better to get experts resolve this problem. Do you mind helping me with that. Or you have a problem even with that.BalanceRestored 08:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:CIVIL. Abecedare 08:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

guys, try to be constructive. The Mahabharata is obviously irrelevant to the Vedas themselves. You are free to claim even today that there are six or seven or any number of Vedas without any impact on the actual Vedic literature. The Vedas themselves talk of triplicity, and in late Vedic times a "fourth Veda" appears. The Vedic period ended, but of course people in the Maurya or Gupta period could well get the idea that, hey, if a "fourth Veda" can be introduced, why not a fifth? This is certainly a respectable topic, to be treated under "reception of Vedic literature", or "importance of Vedic texts in Hinduism". Not relevant to the study of the Vedas themselves, but of great importance to the study of Hinduism and history of Indian thought. Try to just move such discussions to the relevant place instead of calling each other names. dab (𒁳) 09:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * (Pranav Veda) Pranav OR "OM" is itself a veda there are various texts about the begining of the creation etc, this Veda has been there among the Panchals / Vishwabrahmins what ever you call it who have 5 rishis those are clearly mentioned in the Yajur Veda itself. It is said that the 1st Veda Pranav Veda has been written around 10,000 years ago other are written much latter. If it is not mentioned here on the main page the other people who could be knowing more in details will not easily reach the page and write about the facts. But, strictly not mentioning about "OM" at it at all, is a big question. I know all these things because it is often discussed among the community members and when I try to find facts around the same, I do find them. Now it is up to you all to mention the same or not. See I myself am a lot Blind about the Vedic Scripts and am enjoying all these competitive claims about the facts from AB and BPriya because the more I am challenged the more I learn. It gives me more boost to get things and prove what I claimed is right. It makes me happier, finding the facts to be true. I've ordered for this book, hope it reaches me soon and I am able to make better claims. Again I understand this is something we've too never heard before. I too just heard about the same. My reaction was the same as all you are having.. 5 Vedas.. at first I said.. what the....... why are all these people talking all these.. !!!!... but after finding facts, they seem to be true, I needed to bring that here as I felt it was important and something we all could learn if it is really true.. Well I did mention about "5th Veda" and all it's citations, now it is up to you all to research about it. I will surely give up after making some more attempts. I don't want to suddenly bring out things which you people never heard... at least it is visible to me.. i see there's something in these books I did scan, you all don't see no problem ..... BalanceRestored 10:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Again the questions... was such a book there...is such a book there.. http://www.aumoneworld.com/books.html .. I do see one.. BalanceRestored 10:07, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Pranavan Vedam"
 * by Dr. S. P. Sabharathnam
 * A fascinating treatise on the creation of the universe and the ancient science of Pranava Veda or the cosmic life force. Written by a master in the Agamas.BalanceRestored 10:10, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: I've myself never read this myself. I did try google, amazon books ... it is not found there.BalanceRestored 10:13, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I've created the page Pranav Veda, I hope there will be more inputs about this treatise.BalanceRestored 10:44, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Texts are criticizing 2 important religions in India
I've removed the following below text.

'''Philosophies and sects that developed in the Indian subcontinent have taken differing positions on the Vedas. Schools of Indian philosophy which cite the Vedas as their scriptural authority are classified as "orthodox" (āstika). Two other Indian philosophies, Buddhism and Jainism, did not accept the authority of the Vedas and evolved into separate religions. In Indian philosophy these groups are referred to as "heterodox" or "non-Vedic" (nāstika) schools. '''

There are 66 more religions in the world who do not accept Vedas, but the text is specifically just mentioning the two. The text is crossing NPOV. Check list of religions, it is stating all List of religions other then Hinduism as Nastiks. BalanceRestored 11:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Crossing NPOV There are not just 2 but 66 more religions. This is a strict no-no at wikipedia.BalanceRestored 11:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

FYI.. "nāstika" this is a very cheaply looked up term in India. It is very similar to calling niggers etc. They should be removed from Wiki I suppose.BalanceRestored 11:14, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Not to get involved in one of these Mera Bharat Mahan disputes, but nāstika just means that Buddhists and Jains don't think that there is a God (... नास्ति, one might venture to say), which certainly no Buddhist or Jain would think is anything to be ashamed of. The reason to remove this stuff is probably that it's POV, but more that it's a sort of tired, Sarvepalli Radhakrishna (no offense to the great man), "there are six schools of Indian philosophy," POV than that it's pejorative. Rājagṛha 15:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Fantastic, a person who just starts editing on 7th of July understands things like POV, replying at talk pages that took me more than 3 months. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/R%C4%81jag%E1%B9%9Bha You are surely someone in disguise.BalanceRestored 07:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * , please do not become hostile. It is a violation of the terms that you agreed to as a condition of lifting your ban which are listed  here. Buddhipriya 08:37, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Veda written by the Sons of Vishwakarma

 * Shree Ganesha||

As cited at http://www.amcreativityassoc.org/ACA%20Press/Global%20Correspondents/Global_1999.pdf

Considered to be the son of the Vasuprabhasa and his wife, Yogasiddha, according to one tradition, Visvakarma had five faces, ten hands and from each of the face he begot a son. Like their father, each of the sons was extraordinarily talented and versatile in all fields and because of their stature, they were also awarded the title of Maharishi (great sage or saint) (Sharma, 1989). Each of the five sons gave rise to a major artistic lineage, and theoretically any artist can trace his mythical descent to one of them. The five sons of Visvakarma are claimed to have been the first blacksmith, the first carpenter, the first founder, the first mason, the first goldsmith, variously and the succeeding generation of the craftsmen are supposed to be their progeny. '''Roberts (1909, p.11) quotes a passage from the Vedas:'''

'''Manu was a blacksmith and author of the Rig Veda. Maya was a carpenter and author of Yajur Veda. Twashtak was a brass caster and author of Sama Veda. Shilpi was a mason-architect and author of the Atharvana Veda. And Vishvagna was a goldsmith and author of the Pranava Veda. ''' IT is written by Roberts, A.E. (Roberts Alfred Edwards) (1909). Visvakarma and his descendants. Calcutta : All-India Vish-vakarma Brahman Mahasabha. BalanceRestored 06:52, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The article you have found, (i.e.,The Divine Creativity: The Mythical Paradigm and Lord Visvakarma by M.K. Raina; as well as the references it cites) is an excellent reference for adding material to both the Vishwakarma and the Vishwabrahmin articles, and I would highly encourage you to work in that direction. However the tradition you quote above about the origins of the Vedas, is just one of many such legends associated with their origins, and is not notable enough for inclusion in this article. Abecedare 07:49, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Well Abecedare I too am of the same opinion of yours, but any particular reason for that? But I personally think that no author should be credited with writing the Veda until and unless it is 100% proven. I too understand that Vedas are a big thing for the Indian Subcontinent. I have read the passage that says Roberts has quoted the citation from Veda. I have pasted the same so that a relevant research is done in that direction. If the names of the sages are truly mentioned in the citations, there should be no harm in mentioning the same.BalanceRestored 08:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * tirumala.org

Can we use this website as a benchmark while quoting important controvercial issue
 * IT is written by Roberts, A.E. (Roberts Alfred Edwards) (1909). Visvakarma and his descendants. Calcutta : All-India Vish-vakarma Brahman Mahasabha. Page Number 10. Well I could not reach this book. If someone ever reaches this book and the page number and the verses that quoted the same, It will be an interesting discovery. The author quotes the following Manu was a blacksmith and author of the Rig Veda. Maya was a carpenter and author of Yajur Veda. Twashtak was a brass caster and author of Sama Veda. Shilpi was a mason-architect and author of the Atharvana Veda. And Vishvagna was a goldsmith and author of the Pranava Veda. is taken from VEDA itself. So, after reading which Veda is the author talking about and which verses are telling the same we can quote that to the main page. BalanceRestored 08:27, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Since the information given in that book conflicts with many standard reference works on this subject, it constitutes a type of WP:FRINGE claim that certainly need not be mentioned in the article. Unless this myth can be shown to be notable, as could be done by finding references to it in a range of WP:RS, citing this sort of story would give WP:UNDUE weight to a fringe idea.  Buddhipriya 09:55, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * If the names are found in the Verses of Vedas should that be still a WP:FRINGE claim?? does the above narration referred narration "Roberts, A.E. (Roberts Alfred Edwards) (1909). Visvakarma and his descendants. Calcutta : All-India Vish-vakarma Brahman Mahasabha. Page Number 10." look like he is quoting something from the Vedas? Could be false, Could be he lied that all together, but who knows, the names of the sages followed by the Vishwakarmas are definitely seen in Yajur Veda 4.3.3, that is something we should not forget. But I've hardly seen western authors who researched in India quoting things for no reasons. I did never find one. BalanceRestored 10:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * One more website quoting the 5 vedas and they are said to be written by Manu, Maya, Twastha, Shilpi, and Vishwajna 5 vedas written by Manu, Maya, Twastha, Shilpi, and Vishwajna the website quotes content is taken from 'origin of the Vedas provided by Spiritual Origin Of Vedas.'


 * BR, I hope you realize that this is a satarical, humour piece about religion. Please read the source you cite completely to make sure that the quotes are not taken out of context. Abecedare 08:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I knew that was a one, but I just pointed out so that it be understood that it is not something that people have not already talked about. Any way I found some light about the same from Skanda Purana. I am focusing on the same. Once I am clear with the evidences, I will put that in the main article. :)BalanceRestored 12:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Skanda Purana Verses
Hi Everyone finally found the verses from Skanda Purana that clearly tells that the 5 Vedas are written by 5 main Rishis of the Vishwakarma Sect.

The verses are as follows

RugVaid Manushchaiva, YajurVaid Mayasthata, Tvastrana SamaVaid, Cha Arthavarn Shilpi Kasthata || Vishwagnya Pranava Vaid Cha Pancha Vaidantu Brahamanaha |


 * This also clearly confirms the presence of Pranava Veda......BalanceRestored 12:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

tirumala.org
Can we use details from the website tirumala.org as a benchmark for issues those seem to be controversial?BalanceRestored 07:07, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * No, that does not qualify as a reliable source especially on this topic for which numerous academic books and articles are available. Abecedare 07:19, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You mean to say a website that is run by the temple organization could be wrong? BalanceRestored 07:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I reached WP:RS it quotes the following "Reliable sources are authors or publications regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. Reliable publications are those with an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight. The reliability of a source depends on the context: a world-renowned mathematician is not a reliable source about biology. In general, an article should use the most reliable and appropriate published sources to cover all majority and significant-minority published views", So you indirectly mean to say, the website owned by TTD Management cannot be considered "Reliable sources are authors or publications regarded as trustworthy or authoritative" BalanceRestored 08:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, it is not authoritative on the subject of Vedas. It could be an appropriate source for information regarding the temple location, timings etc. Abecedare 08:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Vasishtha credited chief author of Mandala 7 of the Rigveda
Vasishtha is credited as the chief author of Mandala 7 of the Rigveda. any details?BalanceRestored 11:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Clear Confirmations of the 5 Vedas
Vyasa, known to be the arranger of the 4 vedas, himself has taught the 5th Veda to his own son. This is confirmed from Mahabharata, Shanti Parva 335-40

It says Vyasa taught the first four Veda to his disciples and the fifth in secret to his "SON". BalanceRestored 08:28, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Age of Veda
There was no invasion at all. India's native peoples founded the Indus/Sarasvati River civilization, developed Sanskrit and wrote all her ancient texts. European dates are all wrong. Rig Veda verses belie the old chronology (VI.51.14-15 mentions the winter solstice occurs when the sun rises in Revati nakshatra, only possible at 6,000bce, long before the alleged invasion.) Carbon dating confirms horses in Gujarat at 2,400bce, contradicting old model claim Aryans must have brought them. NASA satellite photos prove Sarasvati River basin is real, not a myth. Fire altars excavated at Kali Bangan in Rajasthan support existence of Rig Veda culture at 2,700 bce. Kunal, a new site in Haryana, shows use of writing and silver craft in pre-Harappan India, 6-7,000bce.

India's history goes back much farther than anyone knew, perhaps 10,000 years. India need not be indebted to others for her rich and ancient traditions. The Vedic texts, thought to be part mythology, are being vindicated by scientific evidence to be the world's oldest factual account of human experience.

Check research work by B.G. Tilak, P.C. Sengupta, S.B. Roy, Pargiter, Jagat Pati Joshi, Dikshit, K.N. Shastri, Sri Aurobindo, Hermann Jacobi, S.R. Rao, Dayananda Saraswati, Subash Kak, David Frawley, B.G. Sidharth

Source: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1994/12/1994-12-08.shtml BalanceRestored 06:19, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

A German scholar and an Indian scholar simultaneously discovered in 1889 that the Vedic Brahmana texts describe the Pleiades coinciding with the spring equinox. Older texts describe the spring equinox as falling in the constellation Orion. From a calculation of the precision of the equinoxes, it has been shown that the spring equinox lay in Orion in about 4,500 BC.

The German scholar, H. Jacobi, came to the conclusion that the Brahmanas are from a period around or older than 4,500 BC. Jacobi concludes that “the Rig Vedic period of culture lies anterior to the third pre-Christian millennium.”22 B. Tilak, using similar astronomical calculations, estimates the time of the Rig Veda at 6,000 BC.23

More recently, Frawley has cited references in the Rig Veda to the winter solstice beginning in Aries. On this basis, he estimates that the antiquity of these verses of the Veda must go back at least to at least 6,500 BC.24 The dates Frawley gives for Vedic civilization are:

Period 1. 6500-3100 BC, Pre-Harappan, early Rig Vedic Period 2. 3100-1900 BC, Mature Harappan 3100-1900, period of the Four Vedas Period 3. 1900-1000 BC, Late Harappan, late Vedic and Brahmana period

Professor Dinesh Agrawal of Penn State University reviewed the evidence from a variety of sources and estimated the dates as follows:


 * 1) Rig Vedic Age - 7000-4000 BC
 * 2) End of Rig Vedic Age - 3750 BC
 * 3) End of Ramayana-Mahabharat Period - 3000 BC
 * 4) Development of Saraswati-Indus Civilization - 3000-2200 BC
 * 5) Decline of Indus and Saraswati Civilization - 2200-1900 BC
 * 6) Period of chaos and migration - 2000-1500 BC
 * 7) Period of evolution of syncretic Hindu culture - 1400-250 BC

The Taittiriya Samhita (6.5.3) places the constellation Pleiades at the winter solstice, which correlates with astronomical events that took place in 8,500 BC at the earliest.

The Taittiriya Brahmana (3.1.2) refers to the Purvabhadrapada nakshatra as rising due east—an event that occurred no later than 10,000 BC, according to Dr. B.G.Siddharth of India’s Birla Science Institute. Since the Rig Veda is more ancient than the Brahmanas, this would put the Rig Veda before 10,000 BC.

Maurice Winternitz, A History of Vedic Literature, Vol. 1, p. 277.

B.G. Tilak, The Orion, or Researches into the Antiquity of the Vedas (Bombay: 1893)

For example, Rig Veda, verses 1.117.22, 1.116.12, 1.84.13.5.

Source:http://sanskrit.safire.com/pdf/ORIGINS.PDFBalanceRestored 06:29, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

5 Vedas
There are 5 Vedas against the standard 4. There are evidences for the same

There are various texts that talk about the Vedas being 5 in number. Arthasastra (1.3.1-2) says that there are five Vedas. Mahabharata said to be written by Vyasa, says that Vyasa taught one more Veda to his own son Shuka. Written at Mahabharata Shanti Parva 335-40 Source: Mysticism and Sacred Scripture, by Steven T. Katz, ISBN: 9780195097030, Page 204
 * The Religious Authority of the Mahabharata: Vyasa and Brahma in the Hindu Scriptural Tradition, Journal of the American Academy of Religion, Vol. 62, No. 2 (Summer, 1994), pp. 377-401, Bruce M. Sullivan it quotes "Arthasastra (1.3.1-2) says that there are five Vedas."
 * "Mysore State Gazetteer", Printed by the Director of Print., Stationery and Publications at the Govt. Press (1965), Page 220 says The Panchals are said to follow five Vedas (instead of the standard four), the fifth being the "Pranava Veda"
 * Pages indexed in google for the term "5 Veda" 700+
 * Pages indexed in google for the term "fifth veda" 11,700. There are various assumptions for the same.
 * Skanda Purana the biggest among the Puranas clearly mentions the original people to whom the 5 Vedas belonged (Still to confirm this) The verses are as follows "RugVaid Manushchaiva, YajurVaid Mayasthata, Tvastrana SamaVaid, Cha Arthavarn Shilpi Kasthata || Vishwagnya Pranava Vaid Cha Pancha Vaidantu Brahamanaha"
 * kamakoti.org "Shri Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham" says "There are five Vedas if you reckon the Yajur Veda to be two with its Sukla and Krsna divisions." so they agree that there are 5 vedas, the sentence is very much "confused" looks like the sage knows there are 5 vedas.
 * "Psychic Science April 1931 to January 1932", Stanley De Brath, Published 2004 Kessinger Publishing, New Age / Parapsychology, ISBN 1417978155. Says "The Newest Physics", "A remarkable little book a new astronomy and cosmic Physicology "merely to introduce the larger work" page 122. The author G. E. Sutcliffe claims that in is based on a method entirely new in Europe. This method is said to be contained in the Pranava Veda, A Sanskrit text from the East.
 * "Eka eva pura vedah pranavah sarva-vangmayah", Srimad-Bhagavata., Exact translation is Eka=One eva= so Pura=Complete Vedah=Veda Pranavah="Pranava Veda" sarva-vangmayah=all-vangmayah. Now people who read this line from Srimad-Bhagavata and still say, NO NO NO or write something else, which is 100% crystal clear, I think they need a doctor. My friends we all agree that Vyasa divided the 4 vedas from some big text (Veda) to simplify it. It was the pranava veda he did that from. Now, this is what people say and talk about. Truth needs to be found, this is what something that's commonly talked. Again.. there's something else also about Pranava Veda that sounds silly.. but I will keep that a secret. Ok, you all scholars, great editors, which TEXT VYASA DIVIDED to make that simple? IT WAS THE VEDA so which VEDA? does anyone know that?BalanceRestored 10:20, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
 * A list of sacred texts where there are further notations of the 5th Veda.
 * MBH 1.57.74;
 * MBH 12.327.18;
 * RAM 1.1.77;
 * BP 1.4.20;
 * BP 3.12.39;
 * Skanda 5.3.1.18;
 * Don't know which translation is the author talking about. I find some other lines at RAM 1.1.77;BalanceRestored 06:46, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Vyasa has said to have divided the Vedas in 1180 Saakaas and each shaka is associated with a Upanishads. So there should be 1180 Saakaas in all. Now why are there only 108 Upanishads today?? BalanceRestored 09:12, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not the place to promote which idea is true, or decide which view is right.


 * Just do what you did, cite your sources.... and please be citing them accurately!


 * Paul it is really bad form to remove citations just because they don't agree with your view. Personally, I have never heard of the five veda idea myself, but until you or me gets out the refferences he has provided, we have no place to remove them....Maybe the section could be touched up a bit.... However, please do not remove his citations unless you have them in front of you and they don't say what he claims they do. Sethie 09:23, 28 July 2007 (UTC


 * Sethie, you don't understand what you are talking about. Anyone can add a 'citation' by finding online a suitable sounding text and putting it in refs. It's a form of footnote faking. The article is about the mythical role of Vyasa in Indian tradition. It does not justify any claim that there is an extant '5th Veda'. Balance Restored is absolutely obsessed with this point and has trawled web pages in repeatedly in support of his claim. He could easily have written something on the concept of the fifth Veda as a lost text or as a way of speaking about somje aspect of relgious practice or tradtion. But he does not. He just repeatedly adds the meanngless assertion that there is a fifth Veda without saying what is meant by that. Paul B 09:31, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hold my friend, I am a Vishwakarma my self. First find out facts and then tell things. People have tried to destroy books, records. There are lot of things in the past that I will be ashamed to mention. There are over 40 lakh Vishwakarma in India who follow this Veda are currently a minority community which lack in Numbers and hence things are not known much. Just because one section of the society believes in otherwise and things have been not researched does not mean it is not there. BalanceRestored 09:35, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * If they follow this Veda then you will have no problem producing an edition of the text of it then will you, or at least a discussion of its content? Paul B 09:38, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Again I have clearly mentioned citations for the Arthashastra and referring the same I have written things. Why should cited narrations be removed. BalanceRestored 09:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The formula for atom bombs are not given in public. They are secrets. Don't you have heard about the Puspak Viman, Things flying, etc etc in the Vedas? The veda is hidden.BalanceRestored 09:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * You say you follow it but can't say what it is. Isn't that rather odd? Instead you quote from sources such as gazetters that say "so and so says there is a 5th Veda". The point is that various authors mean different things when they use this term. For example if you type "fifth gospel" into google you will get many hits referring to a "fifth gospel", which is a term used by different authors to mean a variety of different things. Adding a section to the article on The Gospels saying "many authors have said there is a fifth gospel" would be pointless and uninformative. The Pranava Veda page is itself a disambiguation page because the term is used to refer to several different things (just like "fifth gospel" - or fifth Beatle!). There is nothing stopping you adding an informative section on this concept, but you cannot do so because you show no sign of understanding what the actual issues are. Paul B 09:49, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Look an encyclopedia is a referece book for my knowledge. A researcher can reach here. He needs to find every little details about a topic. False, True everything. Let the future decide what's false and what's true. First even I thought it could be false, after talking to many people and discussing with many and finding real time evidences there should be a reason not to quote the same?BalanceRestored 11:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This reply indicates that you are impervious to debate. Just answer this: what is the fifth Veda that you follow? Paul B 11:16, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I follow the 5th Veda "Pranava Veda" (like you all follow the Rig, Yajur, Sama, Artha without reading the text just talk about the same) about that you can clearly see here.
 * Pranavan Vedam
 * by Dr. S. P. Sabharathnam
 * "A fascinating treatise on the creation of the universe and the ancient science of Pranava Veda or *the cosmic life force. Written by a master in the Agamas."
 * This is indeed a very rare text, but I can see the same. Do you see it.? I do see this is a book that has pages and is not just OM. BalanceRestored 12:13, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's a book about the concept of the Pranava Veda. It not an ancient text itself is it? Even the title refers to the PV as a "cosmic life force" not as a text. Paul B 13:55, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Sethie, please see the first sentence of Vedas section, which I added after reading the cited article and IMO presents the 5th veda concept in context (although even this may be giving the idea endue weight). Abecedare 09:41, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Help me understand how one sentence is undue weight? Sethie 17:01, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Given that I added that "compromise" sentence, I can certainly live with it; but to answer your particular question: the reason that even one sentence can be undue weight is because scholarly review articles and books written on the Vedas (such as the ones by Michael Witzel and Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan mentioned in the references) do not find this trivia important enough to mention in works which exceed the length of the wikipedia article by a factor of around a 100. Also see the discussion in this above section. Regards. Abecedare 17:20, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah, cool, I like it. I say we add in one more of balanced restores refference to that section and be done with this. Having sat with it, I concur though that it doesn't need it's own section for sake of WP:UNDUE. Sethie 18:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Sethie, please review the "BR references" at the top of this section, or in earlier sections (such as ) and see if there is a single source you consider to be a reliable secondary and authoritative on this subject on which 100s of academic books and 1000s of scholarly articles have been written. The Sullivan thesis (published in various versions) is the only credible source among these, although I have already explained my view of using even that source in greater detail several times above. Abecedare 18:26, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * How can 5 be 4?? and why you removed the citation about Arthasastra? On what context is the reference from Arthasastra removed?


 * BR you are again edit-waaring on the Vedas page and have already violated the condition under which your indef. block was revoked. Also see WP:PSTS. Abecedare 09:46, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Look you can take that unreferenced not topic about my ban at my talk page. It is not answering to my question. I am not edit warring, I questioned you the reason for removing the reference from Arthasastra is this text wrong? You have not bothered to answer the same. It is not me but you who is edit warring BalanceRestored 09:51, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Would a reference to Fringe theories be helpful here? -- Zamkudi Dhokla queen! 10:18, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean to say Arthasastra is a Fringe? BalanceRestored 10:28, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Saying that there were five Vedas that existed sounds like a very minority view, much more like a fringe theory not worthy of inclusion on any encyclopedia. -- Zamkudi Dhokla queen! 11:00, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * I provided with many references not one. There are many many more. Try reading Mahabharata Shanti Parva. I've also mentioned the topic number, that varies from books to books. Things are crystal clear.BalanceRestored 11:05, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Only Vishnu Puran says that there are 4 vedas I suppose, we have 18-20 important Puranas also. Skanda Purana too says there are 5 vedas, Mahabharata says it, so what is fringe? 5 Vedas or 4 Vedas?BalanceRestored 11:25, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
 * But can we be sure that the 5th veda referred to is the book in question? The Sullivan book included in the references says that Mahabharata and Natyasastra both described themselves as the "5th veda". That makes at least 7 vedas, counting the Pranava Veda. Also, until and unless we actually have documented evidence for the factual existence of the Pranava Veda, we can't refer to it specifically, as we can't refer to something we can't verify. The article Vishwakarmas indicates that the Pranava Veda is "not a text but the notion that 'Aum is the Veda". On that basis, maybe change the first sentence to "several other texts including the Mahabharata and Natyasastra refer to themselves as the "fifth Veda", and the Vishwakarmas hold that the Aum itself is a '5th veda'"? John Carter 18:07, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * John, I think your idea of expanding that sentence to briefly mention that some (not only Vishwakarmas) consider Aum to be the fifth (or even the primal) Veda is a good one. Does anyone have a specific reliable source to attest this fact ? Abecedare 18:58, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Note that the claim that the Epics are "the fifth Veda" is an honorific statement. I am not aware of any WP:RS that would agree that there are more than four Vedas if by that term we are referring to the canon of Hindu scripture that is generally recognized as authoritative across multiple schools. In line with sourcing for WP:FRINGE theories of this type, extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources. Buddhipriya 22:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree that the claim that the Epics (or Aum) are "the fifth Veda" is an honorific statement, and that is exactly what the article would say, once we have a solid reliable source attesting to that. To be clear, I am thinking of changing the first sentence in the Vedas to something along the lines of: Four texts are traditionally accorded the designation of Veda, though several other texts including the Mahabharata and Natyasastra refer to themselves as the "fifth Veda". and the syllable Aum is in some contexts referred to as the primal or the Pranava Veda. Of course the exact wording will have to be adjusted depending on what the cited source says exactly. Does that make sense? By the way it would also be preferable if the second sentence of the section used a secondary source as a citation, in addition to/in pace of direct reference to a primary source (Vishnu Purana) Abecedare 22:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I feel that putting that material into the lead would give WP:UNDUE weight to these fringe statements, particularly to the statement that om is the Fifth Veda. If it goes in anywhere, it should not be in the lead.  I am sure that I can find a source for the honorific references to the Epics, but it may take a few days to find it.  I am aware of a religious view in which all shruti are considered to be "emanations" or "vibrations" which have propagated from om, but finding a citation for that may also take a bit of work.  It is a religious notion which needs to be clearly kept separate from any type of systematic ordering or canonical enumeration of the various categories of Hindu scripture.


 * Regarding the use of scripture as a citation, while any particular scripture may be a WP:RS primary source for what that scripture itself says, what that scriptural statement means in most cases will require citation of a reliable secondary source. If, for example, I am writing an article about the resurrection of Jesus, I can cite the Gospel accounts of that event as primary sources related to that belief, but I cannot use those sources to establish the historicity of the event. Buddhipriya 23:19, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is a citation for the use of the term "fifth Veda" as an honorific for the Mahabharata, and as a bonus we have a "Tamil Veda" as well. This occurs as a comment in a section discussing tensions between orthodox Brahmanism and popular religion.  It says that: "The one solid good that was achieved, however, was that popular methods of religious instruction were evolved, the contents of the learned books brought to the knowledge of the masses at large, and certain high ideals of virtue which constitute the priceless heritage of India, like the dutifulness of, the chastity of  and , the brotherly love of the , and the  heroes, the religious devotion of Dhruva and , the truthfulness of , the charity of , , and , and the achievement of  in re-establishing the principle of social eminence according to personal qualification, were held up before the public for admiration and emulation.  No wonder that the  should come to be regarded as the fifth Veda, open to all alike, the  to be religiously recited, and in the South the popular devotional literature should come to be known as the Tamil Veda." (Quotation from Bhārataratna Bhagavan Das, "Introduction", in: CHI, volume 4, p. 11.)


 * The reason why I quoted this passage at some length is because in context it clearly shows that the use of the term "Fifth Veda" to describe the Mahabharata is intended as an honorific, not a literal classification of the epic work within the formal system for Hindu scripture. Further, it establishes that the time period for this view was post-Vedic.  It also brings out the tension between orthodoxy, which limited access to formal scriptural study in ways that gave rise to alternative popular religious models, including popular epic and puranic materials. Buddhipriya 05:59, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is a second citation for the term "Fifth Veda" as an honorific for the Mahabharata, plus a bonus regardng the fact that four Vedas are recognized by the Mahabharata itself. This is from one of the standard early Western authorities on the Mahabharata, E. Washburn Hopkins. In the section on "Divisions of Vedas" he says of the word "veda" that "The word is used also of the epic, 's, the fifth Veda." (Quotation from Hopkins, E. Washburn. The Great Epic of India. 1901, page 7.  Reprint edition: Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, 1993, ISBN 81-208-0995-5.


 * On pages 2-4 Hopkins discusses the standard four Vedas, which are mentioned in the Mahabharata. He refers to them as the vedic ", or fourfold Veda..." (p. 2).  He notes that "The epic even has caturveda as an epithet of a man, - 'one who knows the four Vedas'" (= cāturvaidya, p. 3). He also mentions the threefold Veda is a distinct grouping and refers to "The tradition of 'lost' Vedas" (p. 3) but the note given for that comment does not seem relevant to the present discussion, and I have been unable to find further discussion of that idea in that book. Buddhipriya 06:56, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yet another spin on the "Fifth Veda" is given by Maurice Winternitz, who gives a different approach. This citation documents the generalized use of the term "veda" to cover non-Vedic materials.  This discussion comes in the beginning of his section on the popular epics and the puranas.  In this quote he makes reference to the  and the  (used here either as a synonym for the  or to refer to another class of narrative literature, see footnote 1, p. 311.)  Winernitz says: In the later Vedic texts ' and ' are very frequently enumerated beside the Vedas and other branches of learning; the study of them counts as a work pleasing to the gods: in fact the  is actually called 'the fifth Veda.' Winternitz has a footnote on this "fifth Veda" comment saying (note 4) "The theory that there was a book called 'Ithihāsaveda' or  is advanced by (various scholars). But the very passage... which is quoted by these scholars, proves that 'Itihāsa' should be interpreted, not as a single work, but as a class of literary productions: for 'Veda' only means a certain kind of learning, not a book:  is 'medical science,' Gandharvaveda is 'music,', , etc., are classes of texts, and not single books. Thus  is not any particular book, but that branch of learning which consists of legends, stories, etc."


 * Winternitz' discussion of the use of the word veda in its general sense of learning is useful, and ties back to the vague definitional problems we have had with the upavedas. And lest there be any doubt, Winternitz lists the standard four Vedas on pp. 53-54 of volume 1. He notes that this group of four that have come down to us may not reflect the entire corpus which may existed in some distant past: "There must once have existed a fairly large number of, which originated in different schools of priests and singers, and which continued to be handed down. However, many of these 'collections' were nothing but slightly diverging recensions - , 'branches,' as the Indians say - of one and the same .  Four , however, are in existence, which differ clearly from each other, and which have been preserved in one or more recensions.  These are: ..." (etc. with list of the standard four). Buddhipriya 07:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The practice of referring to the Puranic corpus as the "fifth Veda" is specifically refuted in this passage from a standard textbook on Puranic literature: "In spite of their early title of 'fifth Veda', the do not in fact carry the authority of scripture."

Reverts
Please avoid revert wars. Take a step back, be cool and talk out the issue. Cheers! Vassyana 15:19, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That's easy to say, but frankly unhelpful. Read the discussions. Paul B 15:43, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have read the discussions. Revert wars and edit warring are not acceptable. They will not solve the disagreement. Please seek assistance if you cannot come to an agreement. Vassyana 16:36, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but empty moralising adds nothing helpful. If logic, evidence and consensus is persistently rejected by an editor their edits must be reverted. Your links are to WP policy that differs from what you claim. Asking someone to read the discussions has nothing to do wiyh assuming "bad faith". 3RR has not been broken and none of the reverters of Balance Restored have been guilty of "tendentious editing" since there is no attempt to supress anything. The relevant facts about the notion of a fifth veda were already there.Paul B 18:21, 28 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that Vassyana's position in this matter is not helpful, and at this point amounts to encouraging soapboxing by BalanceRestored. For those who may not have the background on this situation, BalanceRestored was put on indefinite block for previous disruptive behavior, but that block was unilaterally lifted by Vassyana, supposedly on a zero-tolerance basis.  Since then the pattern of soapboxing and failure to comply with WP:RS by BalanceRestored has not been perceived by Vassyana as violations of the zero-tolerance arrangement.  Regarding the facts of the matter, no WP:RS that I know of supports the idea that there is a "fifth Veda".  It falls under WP:FRINGE.  Buddhipriya 03:58, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I have expressed my views on the issue at User_talk:Vassyana. Abecedare 04:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * An ANI is in progress about this that is similar to this previous one along the same lines.  I hope that editors who are not familiar with the block history on BalanceRestored will read the conditions under which the block was lifted: .  BalanceRestored violated one of the terms of being unblocked by reverting the article twice in a period of less than 24 hours  and, which should earn an automatic block under the so called "zero-tolerance" policy. Buddhipriya 05:40, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

(Outdent) I will again repeat regardless of behaviour edit warring and revert warring is not acceptable. It is not empty moralizing since 3RR makes clear any revert warring is unacceptable and subject to blocking. One does not have to make more than 3 reverts. That is simply an upper limit. If I block BR, I will block several other editors involved in related conflicts as well. This is not a matter of one user being in the wrong. I am being lenient because I feel mass blocking will do little to resolve the problems. I encourage everyone to take their content disputes to dispute resolution. I will also be very blunt and say that in at least some cases there seems to be a bit of baiting going on to try to force other editors to violate the rules (general or specific restrictions). Vassyana 11:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * In order to help me understand the allegations that you are making against the editors who are trying to manage the WP:OR and WP:FRINGE material that BP is adding, can you please provide specific diffs of edits that you consider inappropriate? Without seeing specific diffs I am unable to understand what you think is out of line. Regarding your suggestion about mediation procedures, I am beginning to feel that it may be helpful to ask a mediator to assist you and I to reach better agreement on this matter, which involves possibly over-broad use of administrative rights by you.  Do you feel that mediation would be helpful to discuss that, or would you prefer to continue to engage in dialog informally? Buddhipriya 22:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't feel I'm being overbroad in exercising my discretion, but it's certainly possible I'm wrong. Please feel free to engage me on my talk page or drop me an email. I am also sometime available on IRC as Vassyana, if you would prefer. If that dialog is unsatisfactory and my behaviour honestly concerns you, I would strongly recommend asking another admin to review things in relation to my judgment on WP:ANI or ask for community feedback regarding my actions on WP:RFC/U. If I cannot allay your concerns, it is important that you seek those additional routes to have my actions reviewed to ensure that I retain the community's trust and receive critical feedback if necessary. Cheers! Vassyana 22:36, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

guys, what is this even about? The notable thing is the extension from three to four Vedas in the post-Vedic (Mauryan) period, viz., the recognition of the AV as a Veda. Still later (early Middle Ages), it became fashionable to call things "fifth Veda". We can mention this and be done, but it's not relevant to the topic. Pranava Vedam is the title of a book by S. P. Sabharathnam. If BalanceRestored wants to write an article about that, let him, but not here. However, it does not appear obvious that he even has access to this book, since all he keeps quoting is the "fascinating treatise on the creation of the universe" blurb from from aumoneworld.com; no further information on this book seems to be available online. These appear to be publications by Ganapati Sthapati's "College of Architecture & Sculpture" but that's just a guess. Either way, this stuff has no place here. I second the assertion that Vassyana's "intervention" has been unhelpful. It is BR who keeps inserting blatant nonsense. Reverting this stuff is straightforward protection of WP content, and if BP persists in his present behaviour, he is headed towards a block for disruption and revert-warring. WP can indeed be "edited by anyone", but this doesn't mean that we are expected to prance around ad infinitum with people who cannot or will not accept the rules. dab (𒁳) 18:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Fifth Veda
The idea of a "fifth Veda" is hardly novel or unusual and has been extensively discussed since at least the mid 19th century in English language literature. Whether this "fifth veda" is one or both of the epics, the Puranas, the epics and Puranas, the Pranava Veda, or the Natya Veda is certainly debatable (though the Mahabharata is the thing most commonly called the "fifth Veda"). Regardless, it is not at all disputable that the Panchama Veda exists in theological and pragmatic practice at least as far as English reliable sources spanning over the past century and a half are concerned. I don't think BR's presentation of this issue is fully balanced or correct. However, neither is the avoidance of actual discussion by claiming it to be FRINGE, which for the concept of a fifth Veda is patently false. Vassyana 19:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you!!!!! It was clear to me that BR pushing nor the removals were balanced. Well said! Sethie 19:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * wait a minute. BR was going on about this "Pranama Veda" of his. The "fifth Veda" thing can be mentioned in passing, and it is still mentioned in the current revision. Nothing wrong with that at all. We can even create a disambiguation page at Panchama Veda, linking to (a) Natyashastra, (b) Itihasa, (c) Puranas. That's really all there is to say about it. dab (𒁳) 20:16, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
 * in fact, I have just created a "Fifth Veda" stub, which people should have done long ago instead of wasting time bickering. --dab (𒁳) 20:34, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Brilliant Dab. Sethie 17:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

realizing that even the Chandogya Upanishad has itihāsapurāṇaṃ pañcamaṃ vedānāṃ, I have to admit that the concept is older than I thought. It is still clearly a topic of Vedanta, and should not be discussed here. But I apologize for dismissing it out of hand. It does seem to have roots in the first texts of Vedanta, and thus does reach into the Vedic period itself. Far from being canonical, of course. The term should be mentioned here, but discussion belongs in a separate article. dab (𒁳) 20:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with Dab's analysis that the rhetorical concept of "Fifth Veda" is best handled in a separate article for what it is, a sort of promotional slogan for works that aspire to some level of prominence, but which are extra-canonical from the point of view of the actual Vedic scriptures. What BR has been discussing is not that, but a different WP:FRINGE religious assertion that a specific text (apparently of recent composition) is actually part of the Vedic canon, which is completely without foundation.  To put this in Christian terms, the term "Bible" is often applied to works to express the idea that they are a standard of information on some topic.  We have for example "The Diet Bible" (ISBN=0913087033), "The Freelance Writer's Bible" (ISBN=1879505851), etc.  If I were to try to get one of these books listed on Wikipedia in the article for the Bible by claiming that the book should be listed as a work of canonical scripture I might encounter resistance from other editors there.  That is essentially what BR has been trying to do here, despite many strong academic proofs that the notion is incorrect.  Buddhipriya 04:09, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I think your examples are a bit flippant and dismissive of the topic. Depending on the "version" of the Panchama Veda, it would most be like mentioning the Deuterocanon or some of the wider apocryphal works, following the analogy. It would hardly be inappropriate to have a section discussing the concept, provided NPOV is followed. (A good example of such NPOV would be having the main focus of the section be primarily on Mahabharata as "fifth Veda" and secondarily on Pranava Veda and Natya Veda as each being commonly discussed as the Panchama Veda, since those are most commonly discussed as such.) Just some thoughts. Whether or not it is literal or metaphorical, it is widely discussed and, as close above (and in other places in the talk page and archives), mention of a fifth Veda itself dates to Vedic times. Vassyana 23:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry you do not agree with the point I was trying to make. Let me try to make it a different way.  Asserting that a specific work is part of a canon (that is, a defined group of texts which are accepted as part of a formal grouping) is a different matter from asserting that a text is of the same type as texts which are canonical.  BR has been persistently arguing the first case, which is not supported by any WP:RS.  Dab has correctly addressed the issue of the second case by creating a separate article for that category of extracanonical works which at some time, by someone, have been asserted as having "Vedic" status.  The problem behaviors shown by BR in this debate are not related to this content issue.  They are related to persistent inability to provide WP:RS for the specific claims being made.  If you review the list of references which I added to this page with various examples of "fifth Veda" claims, I hope you will reconsider your charge that I have been "flippant and dismissive" of this subject.  In fact it took quite a bit of work to dig out the references to WP:RS which I supplied.  Buddhipriya 23:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry for the lack of clarity. Not all of your actions and statements have been flippant. However, comparing the concept of Panchama Veda to trying to include "The Diet Bible" (ISBN=0913087033) in canon is most certainly flippant and dismissive. While Dab's action of creating a separate article to discuss this widely addressed issue is most certainly appropriate, excluding it from any discussion in this article is certainly not and contrary to NPOV. (Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you are saying a summary section of the topic does not belong in this article.) Vassyana 00:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I do not agree with your characterization of my remarks, which were trying to give an informal view of the use of language in this case, as either dismissive or flippant. You may not find the analogy personally useful, but please do not question my motivations in making it, as I think the analogy is an apt one.  Your accusation suggests that I have not acted in good faith with regard to this matter, which is not true.  You also have made an incorrect conclusion regarding what my position might be regarding a summary section on the topic of the generic concept of Fifth Veda to refer to many non-canonical works to which that term has been applied.  The term "vedic" is so overused that it is almost meaningless.  I would not object to inclusion of a single summary sentence along the lines of "Various works that are not part of the Vedic canon have been called the 'Fifth Veda' in an honorific sense." If I recall correctly, a previous version of the article had language similar to that but it may have gone missing in recent edit rounds. Buddhipriya 00:35, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

(Outdent) One can be flippant and dismissive, while still acting in good faith. You obviously feel the comparison is apt. However, many Christians would be similarly inclined to accept such an analogy in regards to the Deuterocanon or Gospel of Thomas. In fact, some are inclined to much more severe language than that. ;o) However, an article about the Bible would be terribly incomplete and non-NPOV without a mention of those widely discussed subjects. Similarly, the Panchama Veda is widely discussed throughout a vast number of reliable sources, such mentions date to the Vedic age and English references are available in large number dating back through the mid-18th century. At least a brief discussion, not a single sentence mention that says nothing of the topic, is warranted to provide appropriate coverage. Your dismissal is no more apt than others' attempts to give a single view. Vassyana 01:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You keep referring to the general issues of the term "Fifth Veda" as a generic concept, which I agree has been around for a long time, and which I provided various citations for. That is not the issue that BR has been arguing for.  The generic idea is a more general concept that other editors have brought forward in response to the specific WP:FRINGE assertion which BR has been making, which is that there is a specific text that actually is the Fifth Veda, which is known to members of a specific Indian caste, and that that work is a secret text that is not available to the general public.  See this edit summary for a concise statement of that view: .  If you check the edit histories and talk pages for the various articles where this WP:FRINGE idea has been inserted you will see that BR is not making the same case that you are making.  In this edit, the text is referred to as a "fascinating treatise", indicating that a specific text is being cited: .  Assertions about the author of the text are made here, with objections to the interpreation and sourcing included in this diff: .  This content dispute has been about those claims, not about the generic issue of use of the term "Fifth Veda" in other contexts.  Buddhipriya 02:33, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * You're quite right that the specific answers provided by other editors to "What is the fifth Veda?" were incorrect solutions. Similarly, I believe that excluding the discussion about the Panchama Veda is similarly flawed. I hardly think it is a "generic concept". It means very particular things to individual people and groups. For example, the Mahabharata is very commonly called the "fifth Veda" (or "Panchama Veda"), most often in an honorary sense, but also (for some) a very literal sense. In both instances, sometimes both epics are taken together with the Puranas to form the fifth Veda. That's all without discussing Pranava Veda or Natya Veda. Certainly at the least, a modest paragraph or small section are warranted for a widely discussed topic. Just some thoughts. *hands out grains of salt* :o) Vassyana 20:37, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


 * 'You're quite right that the specific answers provided by other editors to "What is the fifth Veda?" were incorrect solutions'. No-one said and such thing, and no-one provided "incorrect solutions" (to what? A crossword puzzle?). They provided examples of the use of the term. Your comment about the Mahabarata suggets that you haven't followed what other editors have written and, indeed, what is already in the article. Paul B 00:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please read over the discussion again. Providing a single answer to "What is the Panchama Veda?" is certainly incorrect and an edit you opposed. Your response to my comments involving the Mahabharata indicate that you have a gross misunderstanding of what I was saying. I am asking for the topic to be actually addressed instead of the article having a couple interesting, but throwaway, facts. Vassyana 20:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The "Fifth Veda" and other notions like "Dravida Veda" seem to be perfectly valid topics in the medieval Tamil Bhakti movement. Now why could BalanceRestored not just go to the Bhakti, Alvar, or Divya Prabandha articles and constructively contribute to these instead of racking people's nerves with his obscurantist non-sequiturs at this, perfectly unrelated, talkpage? This article doesn't have to include each and every unrelated notion just because it has been dubbed "Vedic". We don't treat Vedic metal, and we don't treat Maharishi Vedic Medicine, this is stuff to be linked from a disambiguation page. dab (𒁳) 10:55, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Separate out the religious and other views
When some one looks up Vedas, he may be looking at it from a religious perspective as much as a linguistic perspective. I find this article written from a linguistic perspective. Both views can be represented, if required. But, for a linguistive view to take such a complete control of a wikipedia page on religious texts is completely unjustifiable. This article needs to be updated completely and/or a separate page created to give information about the vast religious scripture that this is. I find this problem in most Hindu scriptures I have looked up. I do not know if this is a problem only with Hindu books or a general one concerning all religious scriptures


 * (The above unsigned comment was made by User:70.190.229.114 in this edit: . Buddhipriya 04:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC))
 * the historical religious perspective is at historical Vedic religion. The later mysticist perspective is at Vedanta. The recent revivalist literature, which may be the "viewpoint" you are looking for, is treated at Hindu reform movements, and sub-articles like Arya Samaj, Swami Dayananda Saraswati, Swami Vivekananda, Sri Aurobindo. The problem is that every century employed these texts for its own puropses. But we could well introduce a short section giving an overview of that. dab (𒁳) 10:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

When a person is talking about "Vedas", what is the chance that he/she is looking for a linguistic perspective? Neither Vedanta nor the recent revivalist literature about vedas is "Vedas". When you talk about Vedas, you should provide the religous information about the vedas, what they contain and how they are used as per Hindu tradition(s). A linguistic perspective of Vedas could be an addendum to the page. It should not be the page itself.
 * the post-Vedic Hindu traditions are at Vedanta, Astika and Hinduism. Are you suggesting we just redirect this article to one of those? You can find all the material you are looking for at these articles, but this is the article on the Vedas, not the post-Vedic traditions that grew out of them. dab (𒁳) 08:43, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * A page should be written to encompass all the perspectives of a topic rather than be dominated by one. What do you think a person wants to know when he is looking for info on Vedas? He is looking for info on what they are, a brief intro to them, how they are used and so on. He is not looking for a linguistic interpretation of vedas alone. This should obviously be part of the page. But, it should be a part and not "THE" part of the page. Look at the Vedas article. When I was searching for information on Vedas, this page provides very little. The information about the religious purpose, significance and use of Vedas is present in very little amount. Instead a linguistic perspective that treats them as interesting books to interpret and date seem to dominate. That is a serious problem. --Sriksk21

Vedas Divisions
Is there any rule in Hinduism that Vedas be only divided in 4,5,6,7 etc? Vyasa divided it into 4 for everyones benefit. But is that a hard and fast fact that there be only 4 divisions. What if others have only recited the 1st one itself and like it that way. It was also quoted at places that Vyasa tried other permutations and combinations. So, why only mention 4 predominantly?BalanceRestored 08:10, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Veda Classification
Changed the heading of the topic from 4 Vedas to Veda Classification to understand that the actual Veda is being simplified and not four different vedas where written/created. The mentioning of 4 vedas passes the message that 4 vedas where created. The fact is that 4 Vedas where classified from a main Veda.BalanceRestored 10:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What do reliable sources generally say about the Vedas and their numbering? That is what we should report in this article, regardless of how "true" that is, or not. Vassyana 15:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * the topic of this article are the four canonical Vedas, in Vedic Sanskrit, dating to the Vedic period. There are other things called "Veda", which is why we have Veda (disambiguation), but they do not fall within the scope of this article. dab (𒁳) 20:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well I will need to check for sources about the Main Veda being divided, to check the same about various permutations and combinations made by vyasa, one can visit Vyasa, it is written that "Twenty-eight times have the Vedas been arranged by the great Rishis in the Vaivasvata Manvantara... and consequently eight and twenty Vyasas have passed away; by whom, in the respective periods, the Veda has been divided into four. The first... distribution was made by Svayambhu (Brahma) himself; in the second, the arranger of the Veda (Vyasa) was Prajapati... (and so on up to twenty-eight)." so, writing 4 Vedas at the Vedas passes the messages that there where 4 different Vedas written.BalanceRestored 06:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Got the source,
 * Vyasa compiles the four Vedas (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.4.15–25)
 * Vyasa foresaw the degradation of Kali-yuga
 * He divides the Vedas into four parts
 * The 108 Upanisads: philosophical discourses are part of the Vedas
 * Then the fiftth Veda: the 17 Puranas (except Srimad-Bhagavatam) and Mahabharata (includes Bhagavad-gita) (Again the fifth Veda, the further comments after ":" seems to be interpretation, need to check)
 * Vedanta-Sutra, the essence of the philosophy (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5.4)
 * Srimad-Bhagavatam, the ripened fruit, the natural commentary of Vedanta Sutra (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.5)


 * First he [Krishna-dvaipayana Vyasa] divided the Vedas into four, then he explained them in the Puranas, and for less capable people he wrote the Mahabharata. In the Mahabharata there is given the Bhagavad-gita. Then all Vedic literature is summarized in the Vedanta-sutra, and for future guidance he gave a natural commentation on the Vedanta-sutra, called Srimad-Bhagavatam” (Bhagavad-gita Intro)


 * The Lord [Caitanya] continued: "Srila Vyasadeva has summarised the direct meanings of the mantras in the Upanisads in the Vedanta-sutra.”


 * Source: http://www.iskcon.com/education/culture/2.htm BalanceRestored 06:25, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Now if "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone" is for simplification divided in to "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - Vol 1", "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - Vol 2", "Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone - Vol 3", should the book name be changed to "Vol 1", "Vol 2", "Vol 3". Now what if during the 28 classifications done by Vyasa some have accepted to recite the Vedas Vols as 5, and some have accepted to recite the Vedas Vols as 4????BalanceRestored 06:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So the inference I can draw from my logic is there is only "1 Veda" others Rig, Sam, Yaj, Art, Iti, etc etc are simplifications of the main Veda. Infact should not be called Veda also, they are volumes/classification of Veda, writing 4 Vedas and being hard and fast at it is not correct. Physics, Chemistry, Biology etc, etc are different divisions of science. Now, Natyasastra is a division of veda that talks about dance. The Sthapatya veda teaches all things related to Architecture. There can be 1000's of difference simplification derived from the main Veda. So, Vyasa divided 4 he could. Now what if others wanted to divide that in to many other volumes???BalanceRestored 06:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Unlike the word science, Veda in simple words mean "Knowledge", I can use my mind and create any knowledge. Why only 4 knowledge, is that good enough to cover everything in the world.??BalanceRestored 07:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Upa Veda means, something that is derived from? Natyashastra cannot be derived from any of the 4 Vedas. So, it is the main one. Similarly there can be other Main knowledges that cannot be derived from the only 4 knowledges. So, just staying hard and fast on the 4 main divisions for knowledges it self is incorrect. Kindly everyone behave a bit logically instead of making the knowledge a rule. This is why there are so many problems on earth. Being hard and fast at 4 divisions and telling that this is Hindusim, is teaching wrong. This is a big loop hole then. Again for all the critics this is not what's actually taught. People are interpreting things wrong.BalanceRestored 07:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This could be the truth, The first veda is pranava (AUM) veda, that is the whole knowledge of the world. The Rig, Sam, Yaj, Arth are only the 1st level 4 divisions of the main knowledge. But, it is quite apparent that there could easily more first level divisions to the main knowledge. BalanceRestored 07:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Vishwakarmas have always protested the only 4 divisions of the Vedas you can check things. So, please include what we have done all these years also. So, just telling that Hinduism is with loop holes just because some interpret it foolishly and teach wrong is wrong. Please comment.BalanceRestored 07:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So, the Vishwakarmas obey the 4 divisions of Vedas and also the 1st one AUM and so, to avoid any loop holes. Now what exactly the main saints at my community do obey, I do not really know. I need to find out. This is only my personal interpretation. BalanceRestored 07:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The society is not just made of the teachers, they are made of everyone. So, is Hinduism, just because 1 section is interpreting things wrong. Does not mean everyone is and the entire Hinduism is. So, critics kindly consider us too before you draw conclusions. BalanceRestored 08:14, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, if some scholar can explain how the 1st 4 divisions are 100% complete. I will change my personal views too.BalanceRestored 08:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

The 4 divisions are not "100% complete", they are simply what is conventionally understood by the term "Veda". Wikipedia is about verifiability, not "Truth". If you are looking for "Truth", don't read an encyclopedia, ask a guru. Other meanings go to Veda (disambiguation). The article on Aum is at Aum: If you can document how Aum came to be considered the "first Veda", you are free to do that, at Aum. dab (𒁳) 08:27, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Hey Bhagwan" (OH GOD) "Eka eva pura vedah pranavah sarva-vangmayah", Srimad-Bhagavata., Exact translation is Eka=One Pura=Complete Vedah=Veda Pranavah="Pranava Veda" sarva-vangmayah=all-vangmayah. is this not there in Srimad-Bhagavata?BalanceRestored 08:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Isn't this already documented?BalanceRestored 08:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Now what I was pointing out isn't it logical?BalanceRestored 08:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am just trying to write for such a long time, is first understand things and then quote them properly. They are just documented perfectly. Just we need to learn to read that properly.BalanceRestored 08:34, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

sigh, that's why we have the policy of WP:RS. You are supposed to study reliable sources first, and then report on them. You still seem to fail to understand what Wikipedia is about, we are not looking for "truth". What you want to discuss is a valid topic, but it belongs on Vedanta, since it is unrelated to the Vedas themselves. That said, we could add a "Brahmanas" section here, and I am sure you can find enough mysticism in the Brahmanas already. But I am afraid the Puranas are really offtopic. dab (𒁳) 08:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean to say I will need to find another WP:RS book that has already interpreted "Eka eva pura vedah pranavah sarva-vangmayah", Srimad-Bhagavata., Exact translation is Eka=One Pura=Complete Vedah=Veda Pranavah="Pranava Veda" sarva-vangmayah=all-vangmayah. as the source of Pranava, being the complete Veda to add a section at wikipedia, if a entire community in India follow the same, to make hinduism 100%.? Even if the Srimad-Bhagavata is clearly talking things, and is blunt clear. Well now what do I say. I really don't know any, I have already pointed out that if the main veda is included as well as the 4 divisions only then that makes sense. Now you all mention it or not, it is up to you all :)I will surely write that at my blog, Atleast I am free to do that. BalanceRestored 09:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * you misunderstand. This isn't the Hinduism article, where discussion of Puranas would be perfectly alright. You are suppposed to find an academic source that pushes back the concept of "Pranava Veda" to the Vedic period. That is, to the Shrauta Sutras at the very latest. The Srimad-Bhagavata isn't Vedic, and is hence irrelevant here, ok? dab (𒁳) 09:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, Don't write it then. I fully agree with you. Let this loophole in about the theory of "Knowledge" Vedas be as it is. Well again there are things to ask, why western authors who researched Veda prominently wrote about the 1st four divisions, and often told that they are the Vedas, ignored what we (Vishwakarmas) had said? and did not highlight things much? They have used the Puranas to interpret the age of Vedas as they were written later. So why such big sentences where missed out?BalanceRestored 09:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you sure the Western Authors who come to India did not research the age of Vedas using the puranas, you are a very old researcher dab (𒁳) . I have seen you writing things from 2006. You could easily tell things?BalanceRestored 09:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

BalanceRestored, I've had this conversation about 50 times. No, the age of the Vedas is not estimated based on the Puranas, which are medieval texts unaware of the Vedic period. It doesn't matter of what I am sure: If you can present an academic source, you're fine. dab (𒁳) 10:13, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

ok, I found a source discussing the cultural impact of the Vedas. Why is it always me that has to go and find sources for points other people want to make? It is your job, BR, to present sources of this kind.
 * Smith, Brian K., Canonical Authority and Social Classification: Veda and "Varṇa" in Ancient Indian Texts-,  History of Religions, The University of Chicago Press  (1992), 103-125.

this appears to be a good summary of the position of the Vedas in post-Vedic Indian culture. See if you can use it to support what you want to say. dab (𒁳) 10:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think even this is a good one which mentions the Sanskrit sources well.
 * Original Sanskrit Texts on the Origin and Progress of the Religion and Institutions of India
 * By John Muir
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=_VCXTBk-PtoC&pg=RA1-PA22&dq=vyasa+divided+Veda#PRA1-PA20,M1 ::*books.google.com (readable)

excellent. feel free to use that. Now, I've introduced a "Vedanta" section, where we can briefly discuss the Vedantic take on the Vedas. But a detailed treatment of this really belongs in the Vedanta article. dab (𒁳) 10:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean to say we cannot use this source to describe that the main veda was divided into 4?BalanceRestored 10:58, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * what do you mean? It is completely undisputed that the Vedas was divided in four (at least by the Gupta period; The Brahmanas know three Vedas). Muir's book dates to 1861, and may thus not be completely up-to-date, but it's a start. It can be used as a source for History of Hinduism. On this article, we can use parts that focus on the concept of "Veda". dab (𒁳) 11:00, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "Vedas" you wrote, it is Veda (Pranava Veda, I know you will not agree with the same. Still), We will need to remove the 4 vedas because up to the 28th life of Vyasa, he has tried many permutations and combinations. Again, the 4 vedas mentioned is also not complete Veda, you will agree me with the same.BalanceRestored 11:06, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * We will need to mention that Vyasa made 4 different classification. Four is predominantly accepted but it is also written that he did the classification many times so just mentioning 4 will not justify everything b'se we will need to mention all his classification in the same subtopic.
 * SO, if you all are ok we can change the topic from Four Vedas to "Veda Divisions" or Veda Classifications, We will also need to clearly mention that there was 1 veda at the start. Sorry I mean there is only 1 veda and all the Rig, Sama, Yajur, Art are its 4 classification. BalanceRestored 11:17, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

BalanceRestored, did you at all listen to anything I said? The "one Veda" concept is Vedantic, and has nothing to do with the canonical division of the actual texts. The Vedantins don't care about the texts, they care about Brahman/Atman. This article is about the texts. Please try to keep the separate epochs and schools separate. We are not discussing "truth". Vedanta says there is "one Veda". Fine, so cite it in the Vedanta section, or in the Vedanta article, but don't mess up the part discussing the actual Vedic texts. What is difficult to understand here? Are you playing stupid maybe? Or are you really unable to grasp that an encyclopedia should discuss separate issues under separate headings? dab (𒁳) 11:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Dab I know you are a expert, kindly be polite, and avoid using terms like stupid etc, I have respect for you. I ask you clearly since you have researched a lot, is there 1 veda or 4?BalanceRestored 11:35, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You just wrote "what do you mean? It is completely undisputed that the Vedas was divided in four (at least by the Gupta period; The Brahmanas know three Vedas)." and now you are telling that the one veda concept is about Vedanta??. I am certainly not playing stupid, I am only going by what you are writing. BalanceRestored 11:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * alright, BalanceRestored, I do suggest that you read the whole article as it stands, carefully, so you will get an understanding of the claims made (and the claims not made). Once you have done that, we can discuss remaining problems with references or due weight that the article might have. dab (𒁳) 20:32, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The topic is headed "Vedas" and not "Veda", can this be explained? Was 1 veda not divided into 4 different divisions? so, how Vedas, it should be Veda.BalanceRestored 05:22, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You write the following... "BalanceRestored, did you at all listen to anything I said? The "one Veda" concept is Vedantic, and has nothing to do with the canonical division of the actual texts." can you explain me what does "canonical division" mean?BalanceRestored 10:26, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

OED: feel free to look up such things on your own, too. dab (𒁳) 10:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * canonical: "Of the nature of a canon or rule; of admitted authority, excellence, or supremacy; authoritative; orthodox, accepted; standard."
 * division: "The action of dividing or state of being divided into parts or branches; partition, severance."
 * So you do agree that the Veda OR Vedas were divided!!!! So, initially how many Veda or Vedas where there?BalanceRestored 12:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

this is getting silly. Why don't you read the article? In Vedic times, there were three Vedas, one for each type of priest involved in the sacrifice. Later (Maurya period), it became common to call the Atharvaveda the "fourth Veda". Thus: the "original" (Vedic period) division is threefold, the "classical" (Maurya/Gupta period) division is fourfold. End of story. "Fifth Veda" is a concept like "Fifth Element", it is a symbol of transcendence, not an actual text. Calling things the "Fifth Veda" is like calling things "quintessence". Now please stop asking this, as it's been explained to you several times over. dab (𒁳) 13:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Please avoid words like "silly", "stupid". I've seen those been used often when a person does not know what to answer or caught in trouble. BalanceRestored 08:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "End of story." who decides this? In science, the facts are updated every second. Is that not a fact about religion. Is religion a FIX? Who decides that one should stop at 4 veda? when we know that 4 vedas clearly do not comply the term Complete "knowledge"? Again, forcing the entire world to accept the 4 division is an injustice. Isn't it? :)BalanceRestored 08:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * On what basis is the division of the Vedas stopped at the 4th? there is natyaveda, "Sthapatya Veda" kindly cite the Antient book that says to stop at the 4th division it self. BalanceRestored 08:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it written anywhere in the Vedas that there are 4 divisions only? kindly cite if it is? You do not believe in the Puranas, in Puranas it is written about Pranava Veda being a complete collection of all the text. So how and why stop at 4 vedas? BalanceRestored 08:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Definitions of Veda
The book has a distilled and succinct discussion about the definitions of Veda and how they have expanded. See page 7 (rough transcription): The term is used in the brahmanical tradition to designate a corpus of texts or teachings in at least four different senses. (1) The term Veda is used in its narrow sense to designate the four Samhitas, Rg-Veda, Yajur-Veda, Sama-Veda and Atharva-Veda, and Atharva-Veda, which constitute collections of verses (rcs), sacrificial formulae (yajuses), chants (samans), and incantations and imprecations (atharvangirases or atharvan) respectively. The versified portions of the Samhitas are termed mantras. (2)The term is subsequently extended to include not only the four Samhitas, but also the Brahmanas, sacrificial manuals attached to the Samhitas; the Aranyakas, "forest books" that reflect on the inner meaning of the sacrificial rituals; and the Upanisads, the latest speculative portions of the Vedas; (3) In post-Vedic speculation the term is extended even further to include the Itihasas epics (the Mahabharata and Ramayana of Valmiki), and Puranas, which are respectively designated as the “fifth Veda.” (4) Finally, Veda becomes an encompassing symbol within which can be subsumed potentially all brahmanical texts, teachings and practices The subsequent pages of the book review how the process of expansion and assimilation occurred in post-Vedic times. This definitional issue of Veda is already dealt with in the Veda (disambiguation) page, and partly in the sections on the Brahmanas, Vedanta, Vedanga, Other Vedas etc that have been recently expanded. Do we need to discuss it to any greater depth ? Abecedare 16:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * What a fascinating book you have uncovered. The quotation is spot on, and is consistent with the standard academic views.  I do not see any need to discuss this basic issue further. Buddhipriya 18:40, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * very good. we seem to be arguing about (3) and (4) at present, which are suitably discussed in the article now -- Vedantic "fifth Veda" is (3) and "Pranava Veda" and "Dravida Veda" are (4). What is missing is perhaps that (0) veda is the generic word for "knowledge" (as in Ayurveda, Dhanurveda etc.) -- that is, in a Sanskrit text, it is always ambiguous whether we are talking about veda "knowledge", or Veda "Veda". This being en-wiki, we don't have this problem, but the existence of the ambiguity in Sanskrit may be noted. dab (𒁳) 20:30, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Veda means nothing else but Knowledge. So, right now what is apparent from the text veda, which you all are presenting is that knowledge can be only 4 fold. BalanceRestored 10:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, but that's not true. Abecedare just cited a perfectly good source to the contrary. You might as well say that "Bible means nothing else but Book", because of the word's etymology. Veda is used as a proper noun from earliest times, and in English, it is nothing but a proper noun. dab (𒁳) 10:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * My friend Oxford says in Sanskrit Veda means "Sacred Knowledge" BalanceRestored 10:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So, do we go by Oxford??BalanceRestored 10:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * what are you talking about? Nobody disputes veda means knowledge. That's quote different from your claim that it "means nothing else but 'knowledge'": in Sanskrit, "Knowledge" came to be used as a proper noun, just as the Greek ta biblia "the books" came to be a proper noun. Please, I think anyone reading the article as it stands should be clear about these things. dab (𒁳) 11:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Then can you tell me what does it mean by strictly staying by only the 4 divisions of vedas?BalanceRestored 11:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Look DAB, what you are telling me is an assumption. You do not yourself know what it means. It does 100% mean knowledge. There are number of citations elsewhere in Hinduism where people are told, one who has read the 4 Vedas and the 18 puranas are 100% knowledgeable. Have you too read the same or you need me to cite this :)BalanceRestored 05:32, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Simple Meanings

 * Rig-Veda Knowledge of the Creator and Creation
 * Yajur-Veda Knowledge of Sacrifice
 * Sama-Veda Knowledge of Music
 * Atharva-Veda Knowledge of Science

I'm thinking of adding these simpler meanings of the Four Vedas. Kindly let me know if some of knows definite sources for the same. BalanceRestored 12:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * you made these up, didn't you? The literal translations are, "verse knowledge", "sacrifice knowledge", "hymn knowledge", "firepriests' knowledge". Anything else will need attribution. There is no way you can translate rik as "Creator" or atharvan as "Science". dab (𒁳) 10:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I took them from Śruti, so I think we should remove the invalid definitions from Śruti too, but obviously I did not write those. BalanceRestored 10:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * oh dear ... never use Wikipedia as a "reliable source", I guess. It's very simple. Vedic religion had three collections of verse for three classes of priests. That was a technical division of liturgy and sacrifice. Three priests -- three specialist manuals. It was only much later that this was wound up in transcendental mysticism, that's Vedanta, which has its own article at Vedanta. Of course Vedanta should be mentioned here, but it is not the focus of this article. dab (𒁳) 10:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * to be fair on Wikipedia, Śruti is tagged with unreferenced. These tags are there for a reason... dab (𒁳) 11:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

In fact, should we merge the Śruti article into this one? After all, it merely explains a technical term describing the position of the Vedic literature, and it might be better to give that a short section here. dab (𒁳) 11:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am very optimistic about the discussions on Śruti being very large than you think. There may be many rules and regulations (guidelines in simpler terms). If we merge that into Veda which is already very large, it might become a huge amount of text and later a problem loading the same into a browser. Again, I am a learner of these, and not at all in a position any better than yours to decide the same.BalanceRestored 12:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * you see, if at some point we should indeed have a lot of technical material regarding shruti, we can still branch the article out again, at that time. --dab (𒁳) 13:22, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You are right that currently Śruti has nothing to say that is not already said in this article. But can we hold-off a potential merge/redirect for a few days ? I want to see if there is anything interesting to add to that article, but may be able to give it a try by only the end of the week. Since shruti, is linked to from numerous Hinduism articles, it may be useful to have a short, accurate and sourced discussion of the concept. Abecedare 14:11, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
 * sure -- I'm a mergist, but obviously there is nothing wrong with a short and to the point article on the concept. dab (𒁳) 14:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Personally I would not merge the articles. The concept is distinct from the application, the article about the Vedic canon is really a different issue because it needs to catalog texts.  The concept of shruti itself is interesting and can be elaborated on.  The fact that the present article is poor does not justify merging it.  I have been discovering many articles of that type, which I would classify as technical terms in Hinduism, that have extremely poor articles but which if gone into can make quite complex pieces.  The work on Svadhyaya, for example, is expanding that considerably, and while in present shape it has some poor sourcing, the ideas are all distinct. I just looked at the technical term Nirvikalpa and found it to be almost complete nonsense. Buddhipriya 09:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll try my best to get necessary citations about Śruti, there are lots about it. Yes, there are many more Sanskrit terms such as Śruti that needs to be elaborated. BalanceRestored 09:12, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

In Vedic times, there were three Vedas
This is a new discussion start by dab (𒁳), In Vedic times, there were three Vedas and 4 divisions where made out of 3. According to my knowledge what we are said is there was one big veda and as it was very huge, vyasa divided the same into 4. BalanceRestored 08:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"what you are said" is a question of what sources you use. Is your source a Brahmana? Cite it under "Brahmana". Is it an Upanishad or an Aranyaka? Cite it under "Vedanta". Your source is Itihasa? Cite it at Itihasa, or consider introducing a new "later traditions" section. Simply cite your source, alright? There is no point at all in posting this on talk every day if you cannot pinpoint your text, with book, chapter and verse. dab (𒁳) 09:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * yes that is what I too say. Pin point this very narration about the 3 vedas being divided into 4.BalanceRestored 09:30, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You wrote the following
 * this is getting silly. Why don't you read the article? In Vedic times, there were three Vedas, one for each type of priest involved in the sacrifice. Later (Maurya period), it became common to call the Atharvaveda the "fourth Veda". Thus: the "original" (Vedic period) division is threefold, the "classical" (Maurya/Gupta period) division is fourfold. End of story.BalanceRestored 09:33, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Currently the article veda quotes the follow "Of these, the first three are the principal division, also called trayī, "the triple Vidyā", that is, "the triple sacred science" of reciting hymns (RV), performing sacrifices (YV), and chanting (SV).", that again quotes the 3 initial divisions. So, where did these 3 divisions come from?BalanceRestored 09:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

stop it. The article cites lots of Vedic reference to a threefold Veda. It isn't my fault if you refuse to read. The three division "come from" the fact that there were three types of Vedic priests, ok? And this maybe came from Proto-Indo-Iranian religion, which is both pre-Vedic and prehistorical. I ask you to cite your source for this Vyasa-divided-single-great-Veda thing. I don't doubt there is a source for this, but we need to know what it is. dab (𒁳) 09:38, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * My friend, I am sorry if it has troubled you. You seem to take this personally, take it lightly. You again write "The three division", I hope it is understood that there has to be something that has to be divided from.BalanceRestored 09:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I am sure you or any researcher do not know it perfectly. Again, do any of you researchers have the original 1st print of the Veda? No, so how do you know ever this book was written?BalanceRestored 09:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Isn't it from word of mouth?BalanceRestored 09:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

not at all -- I do not take the question personally at all. At best, I take it personally that I should be expected to waste time on this pointless exchange. BR, you have clearly not understood WP:ENC. You are welcome to cite your sources, but if you do not choose to do that, pray spare us from your own musings. dab (𒁳) 10:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The vishnu puran states
"Original Sanskrit Texts on the Origin and Progress of the Religion and Institutions of India" Page 20 quotes, "The vishnu puran gives the following account of the division of the Veda, described as having been original but one, into 4 parts, iii,2,18 (Wilson's Trans page 270)"
 * By John Muir
 * Published 1861
 * Williams and Norgate

Now can we quote the same?

Read the open book at http://books.google.com/books?id=_VCXTBk-PtoC&pg=RA1-PA22&dq=vyasa+divided+Veda#PRA1-PA20,M1BalanceRestored 10:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

great. Vishnu Purana would fall under a "later traditions" or "Puranic Hinduism" section. It would be great if you could a coherent paragraph on the Puranic views, and how they tie in with the Vedantic ones. dab (𒁳) 10:48, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Currently there is a huge amount of text at Veda, where are these citations about 3 vedas and all recorded from?BalanceRestored 10:50, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
 * you are doing it again: We do not proceed by the Socratic method. You cite Vishnu Purana 3.2.18, and I agree the citation is relevant. If you have more sources to cite, feel free to do it. dab (𒁳) 10:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Veda citations
I think it is important for editors to kindly quote the complete narrations the current Western, Indian authors have drawn inference from as new and inexperienced editors like me these do not make any sense. Many of us do not have access to the books. Veda is again, the root of Hinduism and it is understood that we may take certain things personally.

When quoting about veda I think the following 2 things are important.


 * 1) The brief as-it-is wordings from the current authors.
 * 2) This should accompany details about how the authors arrived to the conclusions. This is mainly by referring the Orignal Sanskrit/Brahmi/Tamil/Or Any other IMP indian language texts.

Currently the citations are such that they cannot be understood. These are already explained at WP:V and WP:OR "there should be clear citation of the foreign-language original, so that readers can check what the original source said and the accuracy of the translation." BalanceRestored 07:50, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * we present mainstream scholarly opinion. It is always possible that there are mistakes in an article. In this case, you'll need to point this out and cite your sources that contain statements conflicting with what is in the article. If you haven't read any literature in order to be aware of communis opinio, feel free to ask questions at WP:RD/H. Our discussion is based on scholarly secondary sources, if possible in English. We will not base our discussion on our own idiosyncratic interpretations of the primary texts, per WP:SYN. dab (𒁳) 11:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

They are the oldest scriptural texts of Hinduism.
The following is written, "They are the oldest scriptural texts of Hinduism." what's exactly quoted and how people arrived at this inference?, for the citation only the following is given.

"Radhakrishnan, Sarvepalli & Charles A. Moore, eds. (1957), A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy (12th Princeton Paperback ed.), Princeton University Press, ISBN 0-691-01958-4."
 * p. 311:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)dab (𒁳)

There's nothing more written about the same. What's written at Page 3 and, how has the authors of the book arrived at the details. BalanceRestored 08:55, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * this is undisputed. Although "scriptural" isn't such a good term for oral tradition. dab (𒁳) 11:25, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I can agree with you about it being undisputed, but What's written at Page 3 and, how has the authors of the book arrived at the details.? It is great if anyone quotes the authors exact citations and a brief about the findings. Some people like me do not access many of the books.BalanceRestored 11:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * BR, you are trolling at this point. Read any introduction to Hinduism or Indian literature. Come back once you find any such introduction that does not state that the Vedas are the oldest Indian texts. Asking for sources is fine, but you should at least have an inkling of what is controversial, and what is undisputed common knowledge. dab (𒁳) 11:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you in a position to give the exact citation? "Read any introduction to Hinduism or Indian literature." or any Indian literature you are talking about?BalanceRestored 12:02, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You said "you are trolling at this point", stop worrying about my behavior, I am only trying to make sure the entire article is 100% cited and nothing is just flimsy about the same. Providing the exact narrations will not arise into further disputes. I am just trying to make sure that things are being provided as it is and has not been altered. They form the oldest layer of Sanskrit literature and the oldest sacred texts of Hinduism --

What's the exact narration at "Radhakrishnan, Sarvepalli & Charles A. Moore, eds. (1957), A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy (12th Princeton Paperback ed.), Princeton University Press, ISBN 0-691-01958-4."
 * p. 3?BalanceRestored 12:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

In this case, it would be well if you could get access to an Indological library. But in this particular case, why don't you use amazon's "search inside" feature? Show some initative, man, or at least offer payment if you expect people to work for you at your whim. If you are really too lazy to even use google, use WP:RD, where people may be willing to do your work for you. dab (𒁳) 16:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Was Ramayana written 1st or the Vedas? As per what's told, Valimiki wrote Ramayan in the Treta Yuga. That's further older than the age of the Vedas??BalanceRestored 10:51, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know -- why don't you read the Puranas and tell us. Needless to say, the Puranas are a primary source for medieval Hinduism, not a scholarly source for philological questions of textual history. The Puranas as far as I know aren't even aware of the actual text of the Vedas, they just like to throw about the term "Veda" as a shorthand for "transcendental complete knowledge" or similar. Nothing to do with the Vedas themselves. Can we discuss the Vedas here, please, and the Puranas at Puranas? dab (𒁳) 11:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Vedas are written in the Dvapara Yuga that comes after the Treta Yuga. So, what you wrote yesterday is wrong.BalanceRestored 11:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This following is claimed at the article "The Vedas (Sanskrit véda वेद "knowledge") are a large corpus of texts originating in Ancient India. They form the oldest layer of Sanskrit literature[1] and the oldest sacred texts of Hinduism.[2]" which contradicts BalanceRestored 11:14, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Your Puranic "date of the Vedas" would translate to 2 million years or so. Which, if you take these to be actual years as opposed to metaphorical "Puranic years", would mean the three Vedas were heard by Homo habilis in the African Savanna in the later Pliocene. BalanceRestored, it is clear at this point that you want to edit Yuga or Purana, not Veda. dab (𒁳) 11:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * So, it is clear that the claim of Vedas being the oldest is disputed. As per Hindu mythology Ramayana was written first. And that's what's been passed on for generations to generations. So, it is better you remove that claim.BalanceRestored 11:18, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Again do you researchers had TIME MACHINES, that you went to the past and claim 100% that what you tell is correct? what if things are lost with time? You can claim things which are 100% certain and acceptable. Again did you go to BC 1500 or BC 4000 or BC 10000 all by your self??? There are human limits to very experiments. BalanceRestored 11:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Or at least write "As per findings" and don't start claiming superficially.BalanceRestored 11:25, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Along with time there are changes.
 * There is chemical reactions, Things written on Rocks are not 100% verifiable. We have Rains, Sunlight and many other climatic changes you are just ignoring them. Carbon dating can be done with things those are available, what about things those are not?. Simply claiming these details just ignoring all the climatic and natural changes is incorrect!!!!!. BalanceRestored 11:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Again have you seen if "the three Vedas were heard by Homo habilis in the African Savanna in the later Pliocene." or not, do you know for sure that there where only "Homo habilis in the African Savanna" and there was nothing else on the earth? Again do you have a time machine?BalanceRestored 11:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * sorry, unlike scholarly sources, time travel is not an accepted source of information on Wikipedia. I would ask you to publish your excellent line of argument in an Indological journal first, and we will then cite it here. dab (𒁳) 11:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't you think you are telling all the Hindu mythology is false? with the experiments which are done only with available things. Rivers disappeared.. these are just texts!!!!BalanceRestored 11:56, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Hindu mythology is true and genuine mythology, and as such the object of study in the field of mythography. If you want to discuss Hindu mythology, please cite scholarly mythographic publications at Talk:Hindu mythology. dab (𒁳) 12:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Again are changes to the actual text, alterations to the language, meanings (even meaning of the words change with time), wars and deliberate injections of texts and removals of text by future inhabitants considered??? when you are following the mythology as a 100%BalanceRestored 12:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Again do you know if Max Müller was biased or not?BalanceRestored 12:24, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

BR, have you found a library near where you live? Does it have an "Indology" section? Have you found a book on Indian literature? Have you opened it? If you haven't, please consider postponing this discussion until you have. Then begin citing published views supporting whatever it is you want to say. Max Müller lived 100 years ago. If you don't like him, you have a huge number of other authors you can cite. dab (𒁳) 12:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Max Muller writes such letters


 * Muller wrote a letter to his wife, dated 1886, in which he said “The translation of the


 * Veda will hereafter tell to a great extent on the fate of India and on the growth of


 * millions of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to show them what


 * the root is, I feel sure, is the only way of uprooting all that has sprung from it during the


 * last 3,000 years.” These are hardly the words of an unbiased scientist. No matter how


 * great Muller’s scholarly reputation, we have to examine his reasons for setting the dates


 * around 1000 to 12000 BC.


 * And you want us to take this persons words?BalanceRestored 12:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)


 * See:Origins of Vedic Civilization
 * Kenneth Chandler, Ph.D. http://sanskrit.safire.com/pdf/ORIGINS.PDF

sigh, it isn't just Müller who fixes the Vedic period around 1000 BC, it is a near universal academic consensus. Dissenting views such as Chandler's almost invariably are from autodidacts outside academia. Chandler is a "scholar" of Maharishi International University, home of Maharishi Vedic Science. Will you please stop serving us crackpots and turn to actual peer-reviewed literature? dab (𒁳) 12:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * How does the "universal academic consensus." arrive at the dating? TIME MACHINE?BalanceRestored 12:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I presume they do not. They are all assumptions. SO, how come people use words 100% firm words and not use words like "based on the available findings with all the human errors"? You too are very positive when writing aren't you?BalanceRestored 12:53, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Look buddy I am a Masters degree student of physics. I can clearly understand to what precision and accuracy the "universal academic consensus" has arrived at these assumptions. I am pretty sure you are having 100% of blocks about Hinduism and do not belong to India. So, you do not know that Ramayan is older to the Vedas divisions. I hope you understand that the claim I am talking about is wrong. So now stop creeping like a spoilt kid and kindly help me removing the claim if your Brain still tells it is incorrect.BalanceRestored 13:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Very unfortunately Google is not opening at my end and am not able to reach a book otherwise it is just matter of 10 more minutes. If you do that simple research for me it will be great.BalanceRestored 13:03, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok here is the book.
 * "Hindu Fasts and Feasts"
 * by Abhay Charan Mukerji
 * Page 186
 * "The Treta is best known as the age of Rama" Ramayana is written by Valmiki, and in Ramayana it is written that Sita stayed with Valmiki at his ashram.
 * "Dawrpa is is the age of Krishna" During the Krishna's time Sage Vyasa wrote the Mahabharata, and during this same birth of Vyasa he divided the Vedas.

BalanceRestored 13:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Once again source of Vedas is Infinite. There's no start and no end, but we are talking about divisions here I suppose.BalanceRestored 13:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Again this is all disputed. As per our undocumented version, "The Single Veda is the first document that was given by Lord brahma in the form of Vishwakarma"BalanceRestored 13:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

yes? your contributions are welcome at Yuga? How about you stay on the topic of "Vedas" on this page? Or maybe you would feel more at home contributing to articles in Category:Physics? Have you seen WP:UNDUE? Wikipedia will report on scholarly minority views relative to their notability. What is the minority view you would like to see addressed, and who is proposing it? All your material seems to relate to Puranic Hinduism, i.e. 1,500 years after the end of the Vedic period. It isn't "false", it's offtopic, and belongs on Puranas or Hindu mythology. dab (𒁳) 13:27, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * On what basis are you claiming that things are offtopic? Can't you have 3 aspects when writing here.


 * 1) Facts (Inscriptions found and dates claimed true with carbon datings)
 * 2) Findings (Remembers most of the findings you are talking about are theories, I need not tell that to a person with 40000 edits.)
 * 3) Pauranic Hinduism - Veda as presented by other relative text of Hinduism?BalanceRestored 13:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, I did study History too in my preliminaries. So, I have some understanding towards this subject. Also a science student to the level to understand if what's written here can be taken for granted. And as a science student I can surely tell that you cannot write statements for granted with theories. BalanceRestored 13:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Writing "the oldest sacred texts of Hinduism." is a confirmationBalanceRestored 13:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Which is incorrectBalanceRestored 13:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

sure, we have a section on the Puranic view on the "Vedas" now. Feel free to improve that. Cite credible sources sharing your radical scepticism, and we can mention them too. dab (𒁳) 06:56, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Removal of the wordings "As per current findings"
AB, kindly explain, I did not get you.BalanceRestored 08:14, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * you apparently want us to slap a disclaimer "NOTE: Wikipedia is not divinely revealed truth" on every page. You are free to make the suggestion at WP:VP/P. BR, get a mentor to explain Wikipedia to you, but stop wasting our time here. dab (𒁳) 08:16, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * That single sentence that you have tried deleting/modifying has 4 references, including works of eminent scholars Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, Michael E. J. Witzel, and Arthur Anthony Macdonell; and a respectable reference work, Philip's Encyclopaedia. Did you read any of these works, before twice attempting to replace it by your own original research/interpretation of Puranic sources that are ~1000 years removed from the Vedic texts that are the subject this article ? Abecedare 08:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've already requested you all to cite the exact wordings. You have failed to do the same. I've already told I do not access these books you are mentioning. I think this is something that's already discussed in the policies. BalanceRestored 09:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * This book "A History Of Sanskrit Literature, Arthur Anthony MacDonell" claims that the Vedas are the by far the most important and oldest Sanskrit Literature, but has no citations on How they are the oldest. Again did you read the word "By far the most"???? at page 29. This is the very reason I am asking you to cite. BalanceRestored 09:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * DO you know the difference between "By far the most oldest" and "The oldest"????BalanceRestored 09:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * MacDonell is a perfectly respectable expert source. The statement is perfeclty uncontrovesial. I'll ask you again to present a similarly respectable source that says anything else. Have you ever read a Rigvedic hymn, BR? If you haven't, why do you want to argue with scholars who have edited entire samhitas? That's like arguing general relativity with someone who has never even been taught basic linear algebra.
 * do you also have problems understanding the English expression "by far"? Please inquire at WP:RD/L if that is the case. dab (𒁳) 09:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * BR, not having access to the books is no reason to delete sourced text; in fact it is a very good reason not to edit the related passages especially when multiple reliable sources have been provided. Also you can check wikipedia's policies on verifiability or confirm with your mentor that editors are under no obligation to quote and explain cited sources, so that is no "failure" on our part not to do so at your whim. But disregarding that in this instance and as a courtesy to you, here are short quotes from two of the cited references:
 * From MacDonell 2004, page 29: "In the Vedic period three well-defined literary strata are to be distinguished. The first is that of the four Vedas, the outcome of a creative and poetic age, ..."
 * and
 * from Witzel's article in Flood, 2003, page 68: "The Four Vedas are the oldest extant texts of India and contain religious and ritual poetry, ritual formulas and the explanatory prose that interprets these very texts, and additionally, in the late Vedic Upanisads, some early philosophy"
 * Of course these are just short extracts from the lengthy cited volumes, which you will need to lay your hands on to learn more. Abecedare 09:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes I do, I too did try to cite to "As per the current findings", "By far", "So far" so that I leave a space for other developments too. I always see the following "What if some time in the future" something else comes out to be older? Since we live in 2007, we really do not know what the facts are 100%. BalanceRestored 09:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Currently on the main article it cites "oldest layer of Sanskrit literature" and you cited the following text "The Four Vedas are the oldest extant texts of India and contain religious and ritual poetry, ritual formulas and the explanatory prose that interprets these very texts, and additionally, in the late Vedic Upanisads, some early philosophy" and I do not see anything from what you just cited confirms the same.BalanceRestored 09:44, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * the point isn't even disputed by anyone. See WP:CRYSTAL: you can come back once it is disputed. It is pointless to state that "we do not know 100% sure that this will never be disputed by anyone at any point in the future". dab (𒁳) 10:15, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "From the Publisher, The Ramayana (the Journey of Rama) is perhaps the world's oldest literature." Check BalanceRestored 10:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I know that's not a very verifiable source. Wait.. I am finding it out.BalanceRestored 10:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, that looks fine to me, I'll move on to the next line now.. "According to orthodox Hindu interpretation the Vedas are apauruṣeya" :)BalanceRestored 11:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * have you considered reading the article without letting us know about each sentence you have successfully parsed? dab (𒁳) 11:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * You mean you don't want me to ask if I find things really debatable. As per my knowledge even now Ramayana is the oldest. Again the things here are based on findings, which as per my knowledge are only on things those are available. But, since there's really anything to prove your writings wrong. I consider moving to the next sentence. I will surely update the citation with the exact wordings. So, the next editor on my place will not have problems understanding.BalanceRestored 11:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

All vedas where written in Brahmi script
Vedas where initially written in Brahmi script http://www.bnaiyer.com/hinduism/text-51.html, and not Sanskrit.BalanceRestored 05:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In Ancient times in Brahmi was used to write Sanskrit, as Sanskrit did not have it's own text (Written Script). BalanceRestored 05:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * according to some random website, yes. It is amazing how you are prepared to naively believe any hack's homepage, and at the same time exhibit extreme scepticism towards anything written by actual experts. dab (𒁳) 06:44, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

What are the current divisions based on?
Four Vedas is predominantly seen at the article. Where are these from? Does the Veda cite anywhere about it's 4 divisions? I think you are probably citing it from Vishnu Purana, the one among the 20 Puranas, or where else is it cited from? When there are various other Vedas that can be confirmed from any findings you want, why you are talking about 4 vedas? So you tell me that the assumptions of the 4 divisions are not from the Puranas, then the 4 vedas are based on what? and where are they from?BalanceRestored 08:01, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Do the researchers have any other findings of their own from where they claim the status of Veda to a text?BalanceRestored 08:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

According to orthodox Hindu interpretation
Where is this written? Is this sentence not differentiating the orthodox Hindu from a normal Hindu?BalanceRestored 11:55, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * "For apauruṣeya (अपौरुषेय) meaning "not of the authorship of man, of divine origin" see: Apte, pp. 109-110." is the exact citation. Where is it written about "orthodox Hindu"?BalanceRestored 11:57, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * One can have a look at this google snippet, there's no citation about Orthodox and Vice-Verse. I think unnecessary wordings should be removed. BalanceRestored 12:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

No Shankaracharyas?
What's this? This section is covering the study done by Westerners and only their views are being primarily presented?. I think Indians too knew Veda? If I am not wrong Veda is all about Hinduism and India???


 * Apte, Vaman Shivram (1965), The Practical Sanskrit Dictionary (4th revised & enlarged ed.), Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass, ISBN 81-208-0567-4. (Only dictionary?)'''
 * Avari, Burjor (2007), India: The Ancient Past, London: Routledge, ISBN 978-0-415-35616-9
 * Flood, Gavin (1996), An Introduction to Hinduism, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 0-521-43878-0
 * Flood, Gavin, ed. (2003), The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism, Malden, MA: Blackwell, ISBN 1-4051-3251-5
 * Holdrege, Barbara A. (1995), Veda and Torah, SUNY Press, ISBN 0791416399
 * MacDonell, Arthur Anthony (2004), A History Of Sanskrit Literature, Kessinger Publishing, ISBN 1417906197
 * Michaels, Axel (2004), Hinduism: Past and Present, Princeton University Press, ISBN 0-691-08953-1
 * Monier-Williams, Monier, ed. (2006), Monier-Williams Sanskrit Dictionary, Nataraj Books, ISBN 18-81338-58-4.
 * Muir, John (1861), Original Sanskrit Texts on the Origin and Progress of the Religion and Institutions of India, Williams and Norgate, 
 * Muller, Max (1891), Chips from a German Workshop, New York: C. Scribner's sons, .
 * Radhakrishnan, Sarvepalli & Charles A. Moore, eds. (1957), A Sourcebook in Indian Philosophy (12th Princeton Paperback ed.), Princeton University Press, ISBN 0-691-01958-4.
 * Smith, Brian K., Canonical Authority and Social Classification: Veda and "Varṇa" in Ancient Indian Texts-, History of Religions, The University of Chicago Press (1992), 103-125.
 * Sullivan, B. M. (Summer 1994). "The Religious Authority of the Mahabharata: Vyasa and Brahma in the Hindu Scriptural Tradition". Journal of the American Academy of Religion 62 (1): 377-401.
 * Witzel, Michael (ed.) (1997), Inside the Texts, Beyond the Texts. New Approaches to the Study of the Vedas, Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora vol. 2, Cambridge: Harvard University Press
 * Zaehner, R. C. (1966), Hindu Scriptures, London: Everyman's Library

What is this all about???? It's 100% Non-Indian? I am seeing from a very long time all views from Indian authors, Important Seers are immeadiately disregarded? Is wiki all about not including INDIANS Views?  BalanceΩrestored Talk 06:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Tirupati, not to quote,
 * Views of Shankaracharya not to qote.