User:Basemetal/sandbox/Discussion2

Some data regarding Kentaro Sato from a quick search on the web:
Since I'm the nominator of this article for deletion I thought I'd try to make sure this article is not deleted without good reason so I'm dumping here in no particular order what I've gathered:


 * 1) comments to this YouTube video (whose uploader seems to be unconnected with Kentaro Sato) state (all the statements made should be checked nonetheless if possible)
 * 2) composition ("Kyrie") was "the winning composition of the 2005 Raymond W. Brock Memorial Composition Contest hosted by American Choral Directors Association"
 * 3) piece "is and will be published by Gentrry Publications and distributed by Hal Leonerd" [sic; it's Hal Leonard of course] (this checks out: see below the sheetmusicplus site)
 * 4) "Kyrie was premiered at the 2005 ACDA National Convention, Los Angeles by Northridge Singers lead by Paul Smith the and composer."
 * 5) the comments to this YouTube video uploaded by the same person state (again statements should be checked for accuracy if possible)
 * 6) DSA CONCERT CHOIR at state choral festival sing Kyrie by Kentaro Sato Cheryl Valentine, Director [What's DSA?]
 * 7) another YouTube video (uploader again unconnected) "World Premiere performance in Asian Pacific Choir Games 2013. Nascatur Pax (Let Peace be Born) Music and Text by Kentaro Sato latin translation by Dr. Robert Zaslavsky conduct by. Mario J. Carundeng" says the caption
 * 8) a Vimeo video with another piece by Sato called "Mae-e" ("This piece was composed in memory of the victims of the March 2011 Earthquake and Tsunami in Japan" says the caption), written and performed by the choral group "Milwaukee Choral Artists"; I guess it could be seen as an indication of notability that this work was performed by an independent choir
 * 9) a bunch of YouTube videos uploaded by Kentaro Sato himself; his YouTube channels are wisemanproject and Academia Project; their videos can be used on a case by case basis to see if there are indications of notability
 * 10) this YouTube video (uploaded by a probably unconnected person) purports to show a performance of the "Kyrie" in Luanco in Spain; the comments state:
 * 11) "El León de Oro Kyrie (Missa pro Pace), Kentaro Sato (SSAATTBB) Concierto en Luanco (Asturias), diciembre de 2010." [What's El the Léon de Oro?]
 * 12) the sheetmusicplus site does sell a score by Kentaro Sato published by Gentry Publications which is distributed by Hal Leonard; this is most certainly an element of notability
 * 13) Sato's website states that he has held the following positions and/or awarded the following distinctions (again data would have to be checked):
 * 14) "In 2005, he was appointed as a resident composer and assistant conductor of the Torrance Symphony" [that's Torrance, California; this seems easy to check]
 * 15) "winner of the prestigious ACDA Raymond W. Brock Memorial Composition Contest for “Kyrie” from Missa pro Pace (Mass for Peace), which was premiered at the 2005 ACDA National Convention in Los Angeles."
 * 16) "licensed expert of MIDI from Association of Music Electronics Industry (AMEI), and has been involving in developments of many commercial and private orchestral sample libraries and music hardware/software."
 * 17) "specialist in intellectual property management (administration) certified by the Japanese Government." [Is this a degree? A certification? A position? A title? What?]
 * 18) "serves as a lecturer at Shobi University and Shobi College of Music, teaching music composition, arrangement, recording and music technology and production." [Shobi University is in Japan and does exist and even has a WP article Shobi University; I don't know about the Shobi College of Music; however checking the statements may be difficult unless you know Japanese.
 * 19) his article states that Sato produced "arrangement", "orchestration", "lyrics" or "additional music composition" for these computer games; that should not be hard to check if orchestrators are credited, but are they?
 * 20) Medal of Honor: European Assault (Orchestration) (Electronic Arts)
 * 21) Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter (Orchestration) (Ubisoft)
 * 22) Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter 2 (Orchestration) (Ubisoft)
 * 23) Avalon Code Title Song "Deep Forest" (Arrangement) (Matrix Software); does Sato affirm he wrote the title song "Deep Forest" and its arrangement or only the arrangement?
 * 24) Dissidia 012 Final Fantasy (Orchestration and Lyrics) (Square Enix); according the the WP article of the game main composer is Takeharu Ishimoto
 * 25) Final Fantasy Type-0 (Additional Music Composition, Orchestration and Lyrics) (Square Enix); again main composer Takeharu Ishimoto according to game WP article
 * 26) finally the article states that he has produced the orchestration of a CD album; that again should be easy to check
 * 27) Wonderful World by Israel Kamakawiwoʻole (Orchestration); unfortunately the credits section of the Allmusic page for this album does not mention Kentaro Sato at all; nor is the name Kentaro Sato apparently known to the Allmusic database

I hope this is a start so we can trully evaluate notability and not delete a valuable WP article for no good reasons.

However if it is left as it is the article would still suffer from serious problems because even if the above gives indications of notability, that notability has to be documented in the article.

One final note. We at WP are not investigators or journalists. If I suggested above to check some facts it is simply to allow people to gain a quick impression whether there is enough indications of notability that might justify that we just let this article be for the moment hoping that someone would in time bring some reliable published sources to bear. If there are no published reliable sources that have carried this research and this investigation we at WP cannot replace them. That's not our job. And BTW that would most certainly be OR.

Contact Basemetal here 04:38, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Some serious effort here in trying to find out whether there are sources to support notability, from the editor who cast doubt in he first place. One thing that jumps out at me is that there are a great many YouTube hits in this survey, and YouTube is generally regarded as unreliable. If these are disregarded, what does that leave?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 07:18, 11 February 2014 (UTC)


 * That leaves number 7. The sheetmusicplus catalogue. Contact Basemetal here 17:35, 11 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Certainly a composer with one published score is more notable than one without any, but that seems a bit weak. What would be most helpful would be reviews or interviews in major newspapers or journals. These may not show up in a Google search, so let me try some off-web resources.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 17:56, 11 February 2014 (UTC)


 * You note several claims are made by un reliable sources above:
 * His Kyrie was "the winning composition of the 2005 Raymond W. Brock Memorial Composition Contest hosted by American Choral Directors Association"
 * "In 2005, he was appointed as a resident composer and assistant conductor of the Torrance Symphony" (That's Torrance, California)
 * He "serves as a lecturer at Shobi University and Shobi College of Music, teaching music composition, arrangement, recording and music technology and production."'
 * Could reliable sources be found to validate these claims? Contact Basemetal here 18:04, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * A search of the JSTOR database turns up only two authors with the same name, one a mathematician, the other an historian. Newspaper databases are a little more encouraging but, considering that his composer only graduated from Cal State University Northridge in 2005, it may be a little early to expect very much. I can however confirm two of these claims, by using NewsBankAccessWorldNews and LexisNexis Academic.
 * The first is announced in a concert preview in the Thousand Oaks Acorn, Thursday, February 3, 2005, titled "Cal State University Northridge Singers to Perform Tomorrow". It reads, in part: "Kentaro Sato, a Cal State University Northridge senior, has won the American Choral Directors Association's (ACDA) Raymond Brock Choral Competition Award-in recognition of his 'Kyrie,' a composition of sacred music for a cappella voices."
 * The second is partially confirmed by a concert review (or sorts) in the Daily Breeze (a Torrance, CA, local paper) for Monday, September 3, 2007. The headline, "Rain or Sun, Concert Shined", gives a fairly good idea of the quality of the prose in this article by one Robert L. Andrew, but this does not prevent us from learning that "the orchestra's assistant conductor [is] Kentaro Sato". There is no mention in this article of him being resident composer, but the reviewer did find the premiere of Sato's Freedom Overture to be "One of the greatest highlights of the concert", a "marvelous" work that "could justly earn Sato a place in a composers' hall of fame - perhaps on the same wall with John Philip Sousa and Francis Scott Key, both of whom had compositions in the program Sunday". (Presumably these were two of the other great highlights of the concert.)
 * I don't find any confirmation of the third claim, but surely that could be established by the institution's website. I got a few more hits, but they were mostly just announcements of concerts that included pieces by Sato, and all were in local newspapers like the Acorn and the Breeze (Redlands Daily Facts, St. Paul Pioneer Press, the Rochester, MN Post-Bulletin, the Syracuse, NY Post-Standard, Harrisburg, PA Patriot-News).
 * Saving the best for last, the Daily News of Los Angeles was the highest-profile paper I found. It had a Community News item on Sunday, December 18, 2005, headed "CSUN Music Student Wins for Composition". The headline referred to Sato winning the 26th annual Choral Composition Contest held at Ithaca College in New York in November 2005, with a composition titled "How Do I Love You". However, the article goes on to detail a number of Sato's other accomplishments, including the American Choral Directors Association's Raymond Brock Choral Competition Award for his "Kyrie", but also the California State University Outstanding Award in Music. A snippet of biography is also found there: "Originally from Hamamatsu, Japan, Sato comes from a family of musicians and began playing the organ at age 5. The Moravian Philharmonic in the Czech Republic and the Philharmonic Orchestra of London have also performed Sato's pieces". The UK press seem not to have covered his London performance, nor do I get any hits for his name in Czech newspapers.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 18:52, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * To sum up what's in the data Jerome Kohl uncovered, we've got
 * the Sheet Music Plus catalogue mentioning a published work
 * a review in the Thousand Oaks Acorn, Thousand Oaks, CA, Thursday, February 3, 2005
 * a review in the Daily Breeze, Torrance, CA, Monday, September 3, 2007
 * a review in the Daily News of Los Angeles, Los Angeles, CA, December 18, 2005
 * (Do the concert announcements count?) Contact Basemetal here 19:20, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This is the Shobi University website and this is the faculty page; unfortunately the website is all in Japanese so I can't go beyond that.
 * This is the Torrance Symphony website; no mention of Sato there. Contact Basemetal here 19:34, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * One small correction: the Acorn item is not a review, but rather a concert announcement. I cited it because it confirmed the prize for the "Kyrie". Concert announcements may be significant in large numbers, or when they involve major professional performers, but just about any composer can muster a few of these for amateur or school choirs. This is where the Daily News item trumps the others. The Moravian Philharmonic may not be on the same level as the Boston Symphony, but they are not chopped liver, either, and if that other orchestra really is the LPO, then this could be a significant, maybe even notable event. Some further investigations have proved largely negative. A search of the archive on the London Philharmonic Orchestra's website (which currently goes back only to 2000, but should cover this case) turned up blank, but this doesn't necessarily mean that the claim in the Daily News of Los Angeles is false. For one thing, the LPO archive lists only their main subscription series, and there are many other situations in which they may have played a piece by Sato, from school concerts or pops matinees all the way down to sight-reading sessions, meant to encourage young talent, but not open to the public. It is also possible that the Daily News was scrupulously accurate in reporting the orchestra's name as "Philharmonic Orchestra of London", and this is a different orchestra from the LPO. As for the Shobi University website, I have gone through the faculty list there and Sato is not on it. I don't read Japanese, either, but for lists like this Google Translate is perfectly satisfactory. (Apparently linking a web address through Google Translate is forbidden, since this produced a "blocked link" message when I tried it, but the process is easy enough: just paste the Shobi University page's url into the "translate from" window on Google Translate, and then click on the "translated" link in the second window, set to the language of your choice.)—Jerome Kohl (talk) 22:03, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * According to this page from the site of the Manchester Symphony Orchestra they performed Sato's Symphonic Tale of Peter Pan on Sunday, October 27th, 2013 and had performed Sato's Wings of Dreams "a few years ago" At what level is the Manchester Symphony Orchestra? (Gotta love the titles of his works:) He also favors Latin titles. I wonder if Latin titles attract the attention of choirs.) Contact <font style="color:blue;font-family:Courier-New;">Basemetal <font style="color:red;font-family:Courier-New;">here 23:24, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This "Manchester Symphony Orchestra" is not an orchestra in Manchester, England but the orchestra of the Manchester University (Indiana) located in North Manchester, Indiana. <font style="color:#C0C0C0;font-family:Courier New;">Contact <font style="color:blue;font-family:Courier-New;">Basemetal <font style="color:red;font-family:Courier-New;">here 23:36, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, dear! With a total student population of 1,478 and academic staff of 100, I suppose it's a small miracle they can manage an orchestra at all—a bit like the dog walking on its hind legs. This is of course just the sort of thing I meant when I said that any composer can produce announcements of performances by amateur or school choirs. The same goes for school orchestras, who are much more likely than a major symphony orchestra give a struggling young composer the chance to hear what his score actually sounds like, and to learn where his orchestrational strengths and weaknesses are. This is not a bad thing, of course, but it doesn't really confer notability.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:04, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * To answer your question, "What's El the Léon de Oro?" (I assume you typoed that, and meant to say "What the El is the Léon de Oro?", I expect you know it means "The Golden Lion" and, though this sounds like it might be a medal or the name of a Chinese restaurant, it is actually the name of a choir from Asturias—the one singing in the YouTube video.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:13, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed your Google Translate trick works: Shobi University Faculty Listing translated through Google Translated. But what do you mean by "Linking a web address through Google Translate"? <font style="color:#C0C0C0;font-family:Courier New;">Contact <font style="color:blue;font-family:Courier-New;">Basemetal <font style="color:red;font-family:Courier-New;">here 00:48, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess I don't know what I mean, since you have linked it here without any trouble. When I tried this, I got a message from the wiki editor that there was a "blacklisted" address in the chain. It identified it as something called "translate.google.com", so I deleted the link in order to save my reply. It is true that I had compacted the address by using tinyurl, so maybe that was the problem.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:32, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Discography: of the items mentioned in the discography section of his article I could only check the following:
 * "Maria Mater" performed by Vocalia Taldea (NB Musica): 2010 This is the record of the record
 * "Kantika Sakra" performed by Kantika Korala (NB Musica): 2010 This is the record of the record
 * "Film Design Box 4, Symphonic Tale of Peter Pan" performed by FILMharmonic Orchestra (produced by Fontana Music Library): 2008 album detail
 * "Then Christmas Comes" performed by Brethren (produced by Brethren Group): 2007 This is the record of the record
 * Don't know how significant or notable these are. The labels are not very well known in any case. <font style="color:#C0C0C0;font-family:Courier New;">Contact <font style="color:blue;font-family:Courier-New;">Basemetal <font style="color:red;font-family:Courier-New;">here 18:15, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Awards: of the awards section of his page only one item seemed to be significant and that one seemed to have checked out, that's him having been the winner of the 2005 Raymond W. Brock Memorial Composition Contest hosted by the ACDA). The other alleged awards seem to be insignificant. In any case I could not even find out what they were let alone if Sato had indeed been awarded them (25th Anniversary Composition Contest hosted by the Choral Arts Ensemble of Rochester, MN; Singing City Choral Composition Contest; David Rose Award from the 2006 ASCAP Film Scoring Workshop; Annual Choral Composition Contest presented by Ithaca College and Theodore Presser Company). <font style="color:#C0C0C0;font-family:Courier New;">Contact <font style="color:blue;font-family:Courier-New;">Basemetal <font style="color:red;font-family:Courier-New;">here 18:35, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * So there you have it. That's about it. Where are we at? <font style="color:#C0C0C0;font-family:Courier New;">Contact <font style="color:blue;font-family:Courier-New;">Basemetal <font style="color:red;font-family:Courier-New;">here 18:36, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I thought it might be useful to compare a few articles, more or less randomly selected from the List of 21st-century classical composers, for composers born (like Sato) in 1981 or later. My "snap judgments" on the articles (not necessarily a reflection on the composers' actual notability, but just the current state of their articles) is this: Sato's article, even with everything we have found, does not compare favorably with those on Peng-Peng Gong, Jay Greenberg, Helen Grime, and Vahram Sargsyan; it is about on the same level as that on Emily Bear; but there are plenty that may be regarded as worse, such as those on Brice Catherin, Anne Cawrse, Alma Deutscher, Javier Pérez Garrido, Idin Samimi Mofakham, Ken Namba Jaime Reis, Gwilym Simcock, and Michael Waller. Perhaps Sato is not notable enough to keep but, if that is true, then at least these nine other articles ought to be subjected to the same scrutiny.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:49, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
 * (I wrote this paragraph and then just as I "Saved" my connection crashed and when it came back up it turned out that WP had not saved anything of what I'd written so please bear with me if there are hints of incoherence and irriatation in the following which usually happens with me when I try to rewrite a paragraph that I hae just written and then lost because my connection crashed). What can I say? I don't feel like going through the same kind of investigation for nine other articles. I would tend to just say let this article be. WP will not be made perfect in one day. To some extent "fairness" to composers has to be balanced with "fairness" to readers. This article should have been caught by patrollers back in 2006 in the first place. Since it wasn't then let it stay here, since as you say there's as bad and even worse on WP. Others may argue that if you're caught speeding arguing to the cop that there's "people going as fast or even faster right now! on this very road! as we speak!" will rarely get you out of a ticket. Having said that how do you reverse a nomination for deletion? I can hardly argue that we haven't found much to fix the article (and we haven't) but "there's as bad and even worse in WP".
 * Now leaving aside this article, if we turn to borad overview articles where Sato has inserted his name I think that has to be reversed. And I have good reason to believe he's the one who inserted his name in article Choir. Just see the toher contributions of the anonympous editor who inserted his name in that article. Now how do you like the following paragraph in this section of article Choir: "Some composers began to earn their reputation based foremost on their choral output, including the highly popular John Rutter and Eric Whitacre. The large scale dramatic works of Karl Jenkins seem to hearken back to the theatricality of Orff, and the music of James MacMillan continues the tradition of boundary-pushing choral works from the United Kingdom begun by Britten, Walton, and Leighton. Meanwhile, primarily media music composers such as John Williams and Kentaro Sato, and prominent concert orchestral composers such as Augusta Read Thomas, Sofia Gubaidulina, Aaron Jay Kernis, and Thomas Ades also contribute vital additions to the choral repertoire. Apparently Sato believes hes contributed "vital additions to the choral repertoire". That I think goes two far and should be reversed.
 * <font style="color:#C0C0C0;font-family:Courier New;">Contact <font style="color:blue;font-family:Courier-New;">Basemetal <font style="color:red;font-family:Courier-New;">here 00:35, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It must be possible to simply withdraw a nomination to delete but, given the resounding lack of interest expressed so far by other editors, perhaps it can just be left to quietly expire. That insertion of Sato's name in amongst all those others is hysterical! (The "Choir" article is not on my watchlist, so I haven't been aware of this up to now.) Yes, of course it should be deleted, with a note like "not on the same level of notability". I see this all the time, whether done by self-promoters or by their "followers". Either way, it is blatant advertising of an inferior or at least untried product, and should be removed forthwith. Either that, or about seven thousand other names of equivalent notability should be added, though I think that sort of editing is frowned upon, even if meant humorously.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:31, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd like to thank your for all your help. It went above and beyond the call of duty. <font style="color:#C0C0C0;font-family:Courier New;">Contact <font style="color:blue;font-family:Courier-New;">Basemetal <font style="color:red;font-family:Courier-New;">here 04:17, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no question of "duty" on Wikipedia, I think. We may spend our time on the projects that interest us. Sometimes this must be a matter of something like random choice. As you yourself said, we cannot afford the time to go through "the same kind of investigation for nine other articles"—and indeed there is a much larger number than nine that require this kind of attention.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 05:07, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course there's never any duty or obligation. I meant it in a tongue in cheek way. What I meant is that even though I had taken completely by myself the initiative to take a look at this article which concerns a composer that you probably had and have no interest in whatsoever, you nevertheless took the time to help me assess his notability in a fairly thorough manner. In my opinion that deserves thanks. <font style="color:#C0C0C0;font-family:Courier New;">Contact <font style="color:blue;font-family:Courier-New;">Basemetal <font style="color:red;font-family:Courier-New;">here 05:17, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understandm and you are very welcome. If as you say I have chosen to look into the case of a composer in whom I have no interest, then so have you, and I hope other editors may follow both our examples in some other future case.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:01, 13 February 2014 (UTC)