User:Bigger digger/Sandbox

Discussion
Whether James George Janos aka Jesse Ventura should be included in the SEAL list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Navy_SEALs

My background: I have worked with Governor Jesse Ventura and I am colleagues from US Navy SEAL's from the 70's up until today. I have attended BUD/S graduations (family who are SEALs) and spent a fare amount of time at NavSpecWar in Coronado as a guest. I do not claim to be a SEAL. I have nothing but admiration for these fine men and nothing for disdain that pretend to be part of their community.

Reason that people remove Ventura: Personal, they dislike him and his showboating, ego, grandstanding, politics, theories on 9/11, conspiracy theories AND accomplishments above most others. One thing is for certain, people either love Governor Ventura or they hate him, much like another SEAL, Richard Marcinko (who no one disputes is a SEAL), neither seem to have people on the fence.

Mutually Agreed Points: Ventura graduated with BUD/S class 58 and from there he was assigned to a UDT Team.

The selection and training program for both SEAL and UDT was the same, Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL training.

It is also agreed that UDTs both were a precursor program and concurrent program to the SEALs.

At that time, sailors would go from SEAL to UDT Teams and vice versa as well as command officers going from one unit to the other.

Ventura was in UDT during the Vietnam era, though he did not go to Vietnam and his assignments were elsewhere.

Ventura does not claim to be a 1970’s / Vietnam era SEAL, but a UDT.

Point in Question: Whether James George Janos aka Jesse Ventura should be included in the SEAL list and the answer lies in that the US Department of the Navy has long since merged both programs and as such stated that those serving as naval commandos/Frogmen, UDTs prior to the SEALs creation, and UDTs concurrent and after creation of the SEALs are ALL entitled to be designated to wear the trident insignia and use the term SEAL in connection with themselves.

Moreover, Ventura (BUD/S 58) was a distinguished guest at the BUD/S Class 258 graduation (his bicentennial class as it was referred to) at NavSpecWar in Coronado, California. As a Head of State guest of honor (being a Governor, Ventura is a Head of State and therefore must be saluted by the military, including Admirals, the same as US Presidents and Medal of Honor recipients) and was addressed as and considered by those in attendance including flag officers, team-mates and other UDTs and SEALs as a “SEAL.”

While at the SEAL base and the BUD/S graduation, if Ventura claimed to be something other than what he was (what is now collectively referred to as “SEAL”), wouldn’t have the Department of the Navy, Naval Special Warfare (who’s historical library is housed there at its entrance, routinely referred to for outing false SEALs), Navy SEAL BUD/S instructors and command or Naval Flag officers and Admirals questioned his assertion?

There were no accusations because his detractors’ claims are baseless and unfounded and I would argue are not in the abovementioned position that would actually be in such a position to make such claims or challenges.

They are, most likely, people who like to argue on Wikipedia about technical facts that they nothing about, are not members of the SEAL community at all or SEALS that would arguably be defined as “jealous” of his success and iconoclastic persona. Ventura does not claim to be a 1970’s/ Vietnam era SEAL, but a UDT. It is the Department of the Navy that has melded those two into one, and thus he is now collectively entitled to wear the Trident and be referred to as a “SEAL” or Frogman.” --76.173.247.200 (talk) 03:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC)--76.173.247.200 (talk) 03:57, 23 October 2010 (UTC) --76.173.247.200 (talk) 03:54, 23 October 2010 (UTC)


 * He was not in the SEALs and his office has specifically denied that he was in the SEALs. "Governor Ventura's office confirmed that Ventura was never a member of the elite Navy SEALs..." There it is, verified. Jesse Ventura was in UDT 12 and served as a frogman in the Philippines. You can either produce some information that he was on a SEAL team or accept his own word that he was in UDT 12. This all came out when he was governor of Minnesota and he had to admit that he was never on a SEAL team and never in combat (after stating that he was and had been affected by agent orange in Vietnam...)
 * If you want to add him to a list create a list of notable UDT frogmen, but he has admitted that he was not a SEAL. V7-sport (talk) 04:19, 23 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

Response: You are both correct and incorrect. It is similar to statehood and years of acceptance to the union. He was not called or claimed (beyond the collective merger) that he was a "SEAL" during Vietnam or in the 1970's. Those have been since merged for the purposes of title.

It is similar to saying someone from Alaska or Hawaii in 1925 was or is an American. While they were not then, they are now called "Americans." Or Jim Bowie, he was technically not born in an American state and was yet a resident or birth of 5 or more states and territories through merger, annexation and lack of state delineations.

By your facetious note, Cahill, considered on of the great SEALs, was NOT a SEAL either. You cannot have it both ways, when Cahill did it, there were no SEALs and being a Frog or a precursor is not a SEAL by your standard.

We would then have to suggest to Wikipedia, by your own "rules of inclusion" that Cahill be removed at your instigation (explain that on your next trip to BUD/S).

No, Ventura was not a SEAL during the 1970’s, nor was he called one then, but he belonged to a unit that is now considered to be “SEALs”, similar to the Alaska Hawaii annexation analogy.

I suggest that you call Coronado Monday and get their official opinion of what he is able to be called and you will find yourself erroneous in your assertions. --76.173.247.200 (talk) 04:29, 23 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Look, the SEALs existed for 7 and a half years before he was in the UDT and the UDT existed for 8 years after he was out of the USN, to declare that he was a seal because the UDT was the "precursors" of the SEALs is ludicrous because had he wanted to be a genuine SEAL he could have filed the paperwork and been brought in with either the additional training or on a waiver. And the UDT were dissolved into the SDVTs not the just the SEALs, some frogs became NDU and ND but regardless; the SEALs were around for 8 years before he went into the Navy. You just admitted that "No, Ventura was not a SEAL during the 1970’s, nor was he called one then"... You want to call him something he wasn't on the flimsy pretext that some UDT became SEALs 8 years after he was out of the service.
 * I don't need to call "Coronado". I am a former Officer in the USN and am familiar with the honor code. More to the point here, I am familiar with Verifiability and have provided a link from a reliable source where it is acknowledged that he was not a SEAL but a frogman in UDT 12, something you don't even dispute. Venturas name should be removed from the list as he was a UDT Frogman, not a SEAL. V7-sport (talk) 06:22, 23 October 2010 (UTC)V7-sport

I did not state that he was a SEAL because UDT being a precursor, I simply stated that by your criteria, others should also be removed such as Cahill who no one disputes. In fact, let me ask you this before I go on, should Cahill thus be removed? If not, why does Cahill or anyone get the nod when Ventura does not? I appreciate your Naval service, but the Department of the Navy is the one who states they have the right to be collectively referred to as “SEALs” and thus your complaint should be with the Navy, not Ventura. Or, you should put an asterisk next to his entry and state that some people do not believe he should be included here for X, Y and Z reasons rather than to pretend he does not exist. Wikipedia is a historical reference and you want to revise history and remove him and pretend there was no Ventura. It’s akin to griping about the Alaskans and Hawaiians now being called Americans or women and blacks now having the vote, they didn’t, but now they do and you have to accept it. You are arguing a technicality (not called that then) when a technicality (all called that inclusively now per USN) is what includes him. Incidentally, I appreciate your formal debate and handling it in this manner and this forum, for that, you should be commended. --76.173.247.200 (talk) 16:52, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If you wish to remove Cahill have at it. (Although he actually WAS a precursor to the SEALs in that the SEALs didn't exist when he was a Frog.) Yes, Wikipedia is a historical reference which operates on a set of rules and parameters foremost is Verifiability. Not only can you not verify that Ventura served on a SEAL team or as a SEAL, it is verifiable that he did not because he has confirmed that he didn't. Please, let me repeat that: Not only can you not verify that Ventura served on a SEAL team or as a SEAL but it is verifiable that he did not because -he has confirmed that he didn't-. Just because (as you assert and I dispute) one thing was eventually replaced with another (IE your Alaskans and Hawaiians analogy) doesn't mean that that original thing didn't exist. Besides which; Our personal opinions are irrelevant. If I were to state that I firmly believe that it is dishonorable to claim to be something that you weren't and use that to give yourself some kind of unearned legitimacy based on the sacrifices of others that wouldn't be reason to exclude him. The fact that it has been proven, admitted and documented that he was not a SEAL is what is  relevant to Wikipedia.  V7-sport (talk) 17:59, 23 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport
 * Suggest that you sort this out on the article talk page, raise an RfC if necessary. There is absolutely no point in continuing here as we don't make judgements, just point people towards achieving consensus. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:07, 23 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm waiting for the time to elapse so I am not reverting 3 in 24 hours. Since I have sources to back what I have written and he doesn't I don't think it is a matter of consensus as the facts aren't really in dispute. Thanks though. V7-sport (talk) 20:04, 23 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

from Wikipedia Underwater Demolition Team The SEALs expanded their numbers and roles through the 1960s and 1970s. By 1983, the chief function of the remaining UDTs was insertion and extraction of SEAL teams, and the UDTs were redesignated as part of the SEALs

in the spirit of cooperation, I am adding this caveat "It is important to note that Ventura was not a SEAL at the time of his service, but an adjunct program called UDT Underwater Demolition Team which was redesignated as part of the SEALs in 1983 and whose members are now collectively referred to as “SEALs” and the Frog, UDT, and SEAL community." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.247.200 (talk) 02:13, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Even according to your source the UDT and the SEALs were different entities when Ventura was in the UDT. Again, 1983 was 8 years after he was out of the USN. Please, either find something verifiable from a reliable source that states that he was on a SEAL team or remove him from the list as he was not a SEAL. V7-sport (talk) 03:26, 24 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport

His unit now called SEAL and thus deserves inclusion. I added caveat addressing your points —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.247.200 (talk) 05:42, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Once again, he was in the UDT, not the SEALs and once again it was called the UDT when he was in it and once again, he has acknowledged that he was never in the SEALs and once again that is verifiable through reliable sources. Please discontinue this unless you can demonstrate that he was on a SEAL team, something you have ACKNOWLEDGED that he wasn't. V7-sport (talk) 06:12, 24 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport


 * This Seal site claims Ventura as one of their own. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 05:50, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The "SEAL Site" fails WP:RS and carries the following disclaimer: "NavySEALs.com is a private web community of SEA Air Land athletes and Navy SEAL supporters. It is not affiliated with the US Navy. The views expressed here are solely those of the owners, and members, of NavySEALs.com" It is not a reliable source. V7-sport (talk) 06:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport.

We clearly need editorial assistance as V7sport has a problem with Ventura and changes the posts, historically accurate and explained for conflicts, every few hours. The Navy clearly states that his unit was merged into the SEALs and is now called "SEAL" and has the RIGHT to be called SEAL, the SEAL verification sites point that he was a SEAL and he is clearly a historical figure from that UDT/SEAL program, perhaps better known that everyone on than anyone on the list. I clearly made concessions to V70 and added notes and caveats to the nomenclature explaining the posts and revisions but v7sport is acting like a petulant child and starting an edit war. I am an adult with better things to do than squabble with some acting like a child after I clearly made concessions and clarifications on the post to acquiesce to a middle ground.--76.173.247.200 (talk) 08:13, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Read this! "Governor Ventura's office confirmed that Ventura was never a member of the elite Navy SEALs...Ventura's spokesman, John Wodele, confirms Ventura was in the UDT's, and he says the Governor has never tried to convince people otherwise." That is Verifiable from a reliable source. Regardless, you have been reported for multiple groundless reversions. I have tried my best to explain to you that the standard inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability but for whatever reason, you are determined to claim he was something he wasn't and that he has denied being. Whether you are being deliberately obtuse or are just incapable of getting it your continued insistence on placing him on this list is vandalism. Read your talk page sometime, you have multiple warnings from different users.  V7-sport (talk) 09:29, 24 October 2010 (UTC)V7-Sport