User:Bookku/WP:Rationalist logical opinion

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 * For example in Tourism in Pakistan article sentence ".. The country is geographically and ethnically diverse, and has a number of historical and cultural heritage sites ..."  would have been good enough as opening sentence but practically article begins with promotional bragging and boasting statements in lead ".. Tourism in Pakistan is a growing industry  .." IMHO which is more suitable  for travel guides like Wiki voyage project. Reviewing the article Tourism in Pakistan brought me attention to the leads of other tourism in x country articles too and decided to make a brief list of opening statement in some articles and put forward for discussion.

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 * What question came to your mind after reading title of this project?
 * Is this name okay for this project or do you suggest any changes?
 * Whether any such project already exists on Wikipedia?
 * What is importance of logic and rationality in building an encyclopedia?
 * How this project can contribute in improving logic and rationality in Wikipedia building?
 * Which articles, essays and bibliography shall be useful?
 * Which logical fallacies are frequently found in WP discussion pages?
 * What other questions can be formulated for this project?
 * What difference and contribution this project can and should do?

Case of opeds

 * Analyzed at Talk:Imran Khan

Though many Wikipedians are found to be apprehensive of opinion pieces as WP:GREL indicates far from expressly banned as per WP:SECONDARY policy


 * WP:NPOV:




 * Also ought to be read with WP:VOICE., WP:ABOUTSELF
 * WP:NEWSORG


 * WP:REPUTABLE : Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.

Structured solutions
For ARE discussion

IMHO,

Mistakes happened, F&F accepted and gave sufficient positive promise, this discussion is kind of over and it is for some uninvolved admin to take closing call. Continuation of good faith compassionate statements supporting experienced users by other experienced users is understandable, same time parts of those statements - every concerned one here is not a sock here, some statement relying on Tu quoque (you/ they also) fallacy would not necessarily stand- rather inadvertently may raise various concerns in minds of other users and may lead to further avoidable back and forth.

Anyways some topics have come up, just for record purposes I shall note down opinions on some of them. First of all I would support CMD's above proposition of improvements in discussion processes itself. May be something like experienced content developers to have some additional formal weightage in content discussions - or may be some other mechanism - that would be far better than depending on compassion of other experienced users. Said that, keeping content and behavioral issues separate is best and least complicated standard to address issues. I doubt bringing up and judging users on their content priorities at ARE may amount just to digression of the discussion in hand not of much help to resolve behavioral issues.

1947 Sengol

 * Journal of the Bihar and Orissa Research Society. India, n.p, 1932.
 * Burgess, James. Report on the Antiquities of Kâṭhiâwâḍ and Kachh, Being the Result of the Second Season's Operations of the Archaeological Survey of Western India, 1874-75. India, India Museum, 1876.
 * Lists of the Antiquarian Remains in the Presidency of Madras. India, E. Keys, at the Government Press, 1882.
 * https://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/1950-12-04/debates/9cfed01b-34a7-4fb9-a731-0026b4aa2547/NewHouseOfCommons(Gifts)?highlight=india%20mace#contribution-00c627d3-bd45-4058-9e1f-7450e4744baa

Some contested aspects and misunderstandings
I am working on a draft article Indian sceptre in my personal user space that shall take time to be ready. That has helped me, to some extent, to understand various contested aspects and misunderstandings surrounding the Sengol scepters.

Brief advice:


 * 1) Preferably use Sangam literature times and later clear historical mentions rather than harping on word 'Chola'.    a)Chola times =/= Chola dynasty. Avoid to conflate term 'Chola times' with 'Chola dynasty'. b) Chola times is a very long duration c)  Clear mentions of  lot many Chola times inscription and orthography  still may be under-reported / under studied, for needs of specific Indian sceptre related studies so avoid sitting on final judgement either.


 * 2) I suppose insistence on mentions of 'Mount Batten' and 'Transfer of power' in this WP article is rightly waning since not supported by WP:RS.
 * Two likely hoods; First, sceptres incl Sengol are used frequently as metaphor for transfer of power in litrature and some one took it literally. Second possibility common wealth nations lead by UK used to have tradition of gifting ceremonial mace. So some discussion took place in back doors but did not appear in main stream

in my under construction draft Indian sceptre one can notice  enough number of (English) (art and literature) academic sources referring to previous Sengols.
 * Actually Tamil sceptre செங்கோல் has multiple transliterations in English. S is substituted with C or Ch and K is substituted with G. So Sengol is also spelt  as Senkol, Cenkol, Cengol also check for Ch. ;  Talaikkol is (Chola time word).
 * Unfortunately most people do not take transliteration into account -also good number of books are behind paywall - and misunderstand that Sengol in English is mainly for the sceptre installed in Indian Parliament.


 * The Tamil word kōl also means a king's sceptre.


 * As said earlier too, Sengol crafted by Vummidi Bangaru Chetty in 1947 and currently installed in India's New Parliament House is not the only Sengol ever existed on earth- clearly understand there have been many more Sengols - and continuation of using generic title for the specific one is likely to keep piling up confusions and misunderstandings.
 * Tamil sceptre செங்கோல் to English Sengol has multiple transliterations, hence is also spelt as Senkol, Cenkol, Cengol (also check for Ch. in place of S or C) ; though multiple academic reliable sources are available specially from - Art and Literary history -  on the topic of Sengol, still returns limited number of searches on Google Books for spelling Sengol hence some think academic sources are too limited but that is not the case.
 * Sengol's earliest mentions are from some Sangam literature and saying so would be more apt.Chola period =/= Chola Dyansty. Some of Chola period may have coincided with some Sangam literature period but that may not be exact equivalent. Referring to Chola period  instead of specific Sangam literature period seem to create avoidable confusion. Since  Chola period does not necessarily equal to  Chola Dynasty. One reference from Chola period comes is about talaikkol stake - broken from royal umbrella of a loosing king-  which a Chola king subsequently presents to dancing girls who enact the event.
 * What TB says has point "..
 * Balasubrahmanyam (p. 261) notes that an inscription on the south wall of the mandapa in front of the central shrine of the Kailasanathar temple complex has Rajendra Chola I mentioned as the "Sengol-valavan" (lit. just king) among other epithets. Now, however gratuitiously I might read the source, it is impossible to determine the existence of any transfer-of-sengol tradition from the epithet.
 * - Part of it contemporary to Sangam period  so some people not fully aware of limitations of historical documentation and  may have alternatively used    is not necessarily equal to Chola Dynasty
 * When ruler ship changes are noted, even some historians are seen using word 'Sceptre' to mean ruler-ship as metaphor or euphemism  even when there is no physical 'sceptre' stake involved. Mistakenly some people can always end up taking those metaphor or euphemism as literal. That may be one of possible reason name of Lord Mountbatten and transfer of power getting referred to without adequate substantiation.
 * Same time British common wealth nations, including UK House of commons seems to have had traditions to gift ceremonial mace and other paraphernalia to each other and had gifted ceremonial mace to Shri Lankan parliament in 1949 as good will gesture but we do not find any direct mention connecting that gift as 'symbol of transfer of power'.
 * While we find mention of gift to Shri Lankan Parliament on UK parliament archival website but did not find any such mention for India or Pakistan. If any personal level discussion took place about gifting mace to India /Pakistan is less likely  in midst of then non-peaceful partition times; but looking at such gifting traditions, not entirely impossible and matter for hard detailed investigative academic research.
 * Same time British common wealth nations, including UK House of commons seems to have had traditions to gift ceremonial mace and other paraphernalia to each other and had gifted ceremonial mace to Shri Lankan parliament in 1949 as good will gesture but we do not find any direct mention connecting that gift as 'symbol of transfer of power'.
 * While we find mention of gift to Shri Lankan Parliament on UK parliament archival website but did not find any such mention for India or Pakistan. If any personal level discussion took place about gifting mace to India /Pakistan is less likely  in midst of then non-peaceful partition times; but looking at such gifting traditions, not entirely impossible and matter for hard detailed investigative academic research.


 * Mentions of Golden stick and walking stick debate also may be a be case of misunderstanding. Golden stick word was mentioned in register and the walking stick label was in the show case? Some museum curators not being aware of nature of artifact.

Locations
Thiruvaduthurai - Thanjavur - Chennai - Delhi - Allahabad Museum - New Parliament House Delhi

Institutions

 * Thiruvaduthurai Adheenam

Time line

 * Dates of first discussions not known
 * Date of order and completion of the artifact. Date of Delivery.
 * August 10, 1947 Delegation traveled to Delhi as per The Hindu and New Indian Express news archives.
 * August 11, 1947, - picture carried in The Hindu showed the delegation at the Central Railway Station, Chennai, .., before leaving for Delhi.
 * August 14, 1947 -
 * 1978 - Sri Chandrasekarendra Saraswathi, the 68th head of Sri Kanchi Kamakoti Pitam has own version of the event.

Personalities

 * Talked of but contested: Lord Mountbatten, C. Rajagopalachari
 * P. Subbarayan
 * T.N. Rajaratnam Pillai, Adheenam’s Oduvar (special singer) Sri Manickam
 * Sri Ambalavana Pandarasannadhi Swamigal, Sri La Sri Kumaraswamy Thambiran of, the deputy high priest of the Thiruvaduthurai Adheenam, R. Ramlingam Pillai, Jawaharlal Nehru
 * two emissaries of Sri Amblavana Desigar, India's most famous player of the nagasaram, Another escort bore a large silver platter, fanned by two boys with special fans of deer hair.

Books to be searched

 * Thambiran, K. R.. Thandialangaram. India, Saiva Siddanta Works, 1978. (Tamil)

Sources on early news reports

 * https://www.newindianexpress.com/states/tamil-nadu/2022/aug/15/mutts-tryst-with-destiny-15-minutes-before-freedom-2487673.html