User:Brommabo/sandbox

"Ging Gang Gooli (-e)" or "Ging Gang Goo" (below “Ging Gang”) is a gibberish scouting song, widely spread around the world. It is popular among Boy Scouts and Girl Guides. The origin of the song is not clear. The song has inspired to several claims/hypotheses and myths and to several recordings. The tradition that Robert Baden-Powell wrote “Ging-Gang” is disproved.

== Origin ==

A Family of Gibberish Songs
“Ging Gang” belongs to a family of “musical cousins” (lyrics and melody in common) for example: “Kinkan”, ”Hi Politi Politaska”, ”Em Pom Pi”, “Oh Nicodemo” aka ”Qui Qua(-e)”, ”Killiwatch”. These songs are nowadays performed mainly around campfires and children´s playgrounds.

The Earliest Documented “Ging Gang” Occurrences

 * The earliest occurrence was a “Ging Gang” version performed in a new year´s show in Gothenburg, Sweden, 1905: “Niggers´Morning Song” (both lyrics – see below - and score).
 * The earliest “Ging Gang” version in the scouting world was an entry in a Danish scout song book (lyrics only) in 1919.
 * The earliest occurrence in UK was a “Killi Watch” version in 1926 (lyrics and score, “ump-pah”- sound included) . It made the World Jamboree song documentation 1929.
 * The earliest occurrence of the “Ging Gang” version in scout song books in the English language took place in 1952 (lyrics only - see below) and 1957 (both score and lyrics) with the title "Ging Gang Goo". The song was sung in UK at least in the late 1940-ies.

Claims/Hypotheses and Myths
The claims etc are presented below in the order of alleged time of origin of the song, the oldest origin first

Finnish-Sami Song Bear Hunters´ Song from 1500-1800

With Finnish-Sami spelling the lyrics of "Ging Gang" have a real meaning. The claim was documented in 1964 by a Swedish cultural authority. The origin of the song would then date back several hundreds of years. The claim is unproven and presumably a premeditated hoax.

German-Latin Song from before 1900

“Ging Gang” and its cousin, the Latin sounding “Qui Quae” aka “Oh Nicodemo”, share the same melody; further, much lyrics are in common.

Students especially in Northern Germany during the second half of the 19th century created (mock-) Latin rhymes and songs. The “Qui Quae“ lyrics may reflect Latin pronouns (qui, quae, quod); in other words, a mnemonic for students. The “Qui Quae” lyrics may also reflect parts of the Christian “Prayer of the Archangel”: Angelus insistat mihi qua umquam ego vado = The angel pursues me everywhere I go.

Swedish Student Song from Late 19th Century

The “Ging Gang” version "Umpa" was collected for a first edition 1918 of a Swedish student song book (lyrics only). The song book editor commented it was “roared” in the early 1890-ies.

Cabaret Song from before 1905

“Niggers´ Morning Song” was performed in a new year´s show in Gothenburg, Sweden, 1905. The show producer admitted he used an existing song. The actual performance on stage showed influences from late 1800 Afro-American show business. The lyrics (Scandinavian spelling, see below) and the score are the same as the much later “English” versions of 1952 and 1957.

Baden-Powell and “Ging Gang” and 1920

The hitherto predominating claim on the internet is the tradition that scout movement founder Robert Baden-Powell wrote the song, based on his African experiences, for the 1st World Scout Jamboree 1920 (>60.000 results on internet search April 2015).

The tradition propagated widely on internet in the 2000-s, based on a h2g2 web article 2006 and earlier versions of this Wikipedia article.

Baden-Powell´s connection with “Ging-Gang” is not supported by any kind of evidence; it is a myth.
 * 1) The song is not mentioned anywhere in archived documents and correspondence by Baden-Powell nor in the 1st World Scout Jamboree documentation.
 * 2) The complete song was published in Sweden in 1905 = 15 years before the Jamboree in question.
 * 3) In the earliest English scout song books with “Ging Gang” (in 1952 and 1957 ) the song is commented “Scout traditional” and “No-one really knows where it started”, respectively.

Other Claims/Hypotheses without Evidence


 * Guyanan native song/dance: in song books in the USA from around 1970 and onwards
 * Red indian tribe, Iroqouis: source internet
 * Mozart theme from the 1st symphony used for the score: source older versions of this article (N.B. other equally or more similar music from before 1900 exists).

Conclusions

 * None of the suggested origins is THE proven origin of “Ging Gang”.
 * The Sami-Finnish bear hunters’ song is a hoax.
 * The new year’s show version of 1905 is the oldest documented version.
 * The Baden-Powell connection is an unsupported myth
 * The Mozart connection is unproven

The global migration of “Ging Gang” was boosted when it eventually was adopted by the international scouts movement and it has reached all continents.

Recordings
“Ging Gang” in various forms (and its close cousins) has been recorded by a number of artists and become hits during nearly a century in various parts of the world, many in UK. Several of the versions are available on the internet. The very first recording was made in New York, USA: “Kinkan” (1926) with two Swedish-American men´s choirs, Lyran and Svenska Gleeklubben. Other examples are “Nick-O-Deemo” in USA (1948) with ex-City Slicker Red Ingle, “Kiliwatch” (1960) with The Cousins from Belgium, “Shin Gan Goo” (1961) with Karl Denver, The Scaffold (1969), a reggae (1969) with The Megatons aka The Rudies, The Tremeloes (1977) and "Dirk and Stig" (1978) (Eric Idle and Rikki Fataar, assuming their identities from The Rutles). Further, a reggae mix (1993) with German Inner Kneipe and “Ding Dong Golly” (around 2006?) with Philippine star actresses Kim Chiu and Sandara Park. The song has also been used in movies and TV shows; for example sung by Eric Rapton & B.O.D.G. in the animated TV series 'Victor & Hugo - Bunglers in Crime' episode 'Scout's Dishonour' (1991), included in the animated movie, 'Asterix Conquers America' (1994) and in the episode 'Ging Gang Goolie' of Boardwalk Empire (2012).

Lyrics
Many variant forms have sprung up over the years depending on local spelling of the gibberish sounds and of changes/additions due to natural evolution. Different arrangements (rounds, alternating song, etc.) and choreographies have evolved, e.g. the story "The Great Grey Ghost Elephant", which is a public domain dramatization of the song.

Brommabo (talk) 13:55, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Short version
An article in a respected Swedish ethno-musicological magazine was the basis for the recent revamp of the WP Article on the song “Ging Gang Goolie” (GGG). Now the lyrics of the WP Article have been deleted with reference to NPS and NOLYRICS. I do not agree with these deletions. A longer version of the comments below is found in the GGG Talk: “Ging Gang Goolie, NPS and NOLYRICS”. I suggest further discussion should take place there.

Before updating the WP Article I studied carefully three principles in particular: NPV, NPS and NOLYRICS.

NPV NPV lead me to present in short the different views of the ancestry of GGG.

NPS “If out of copyright, shorter texts – such as short speeches (the Gettysburg Address), short poems ("Ozymandias"), and short songs (most national anthems) – are usually included in their article. Longer texts are best summarised with the full text placed on Wikisource, or given as an external link.”

NPS lead me to let the lyrics stay included – they are short and not burdened with any copyright. Further they have been there for 9 years without adverse reactions.

NOLYRICS “Quotations from a song should be kept to a reasonable length relative to the rest of the article, and used to facilitate discussion, or to illustrate the style”

The reason for presenting the two lyrics variants of GGG was presented in the Talk prior to the inclusion: “the very earliest 1905 and the earliest English one 1957 (for comparison in a table)”.

The song is short. The comparison of the lyrics has two purposes:

a)	It shows that the two variants are very much the same, although they differ in time, geography and spelling. Thus it helps to disprove the now 9 years old WP propagated myth of Baden-Powell as author/composer of the song.

b)	It shows what is song gibberish

Thus I understand that the lyrics facilitate discussion and illustrate the style.

Ergo I feel these reasons are still valid, thus I would return the WP Article on “Ging Gang Goolie” to its former state including the two variants of the lyrics. I look forward to comments on the "Ging Gang Goolie" Talk page. Brommabo (talk) 14:16, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Long version
These comments will be posted in shortened form on the DissidentAggressor user Talk page.

Now the lyrics of the WP Article have been deleted with reference to NPS and NOLYRICS. I do not agree with these deletions.

We are a group of people who are interested in folk songs and similar. The song “Ging Gang Goolie” (GGG) and its variants has had our attention since several decades and we have involved so many other persons, folklorists, scouting organizations, libraries and other all around the globe in the studies. This all resulted in an article in a respected Swedish ethno-musicological magazine. That article was the basis for the recent revamp of the WP Article on the song “Ging Gang Goolie” (GGG).

When I started out to update the WP Article there were three principles in particular I studied carefully: NPV, NPS and NOLYRICS (some applicable excerpts below)

NPV

It was obvious that the WP Article early on had picked up some unfounded traditions and presented them as THE truth (Baden-Powell, Mozart, purpose with the song). These statements had since 2006 been mirrored into thousands of web sites and text and song books all over the world.

To allow for discussion on equal terms I continuously (during 2012 and now in 2015) presented in the Talk page information on hypotheses and findings about GGG and how these would affect the Article. The keyword here was “balance”. The Talk discussion 2012 - 2015 resulted in no contributions from other parties regarding the origin of the song.

NPV lead me to present in short the different views of the ancestry of GGG.

NPS

“If out of copyright, shorter texts – such as short speeches (the Gettysburg Address), short poems ("Ozymandias"), and short songs (most national anthems) – are usually included in their article. Longer texts are best summarised with the full text placed on Wikisource, or given as an external link.”

A long summary of a tale written in the late 19th century was used as “evidence” for the African origin of GGG. This summary was merely a concentrate of the original tale from the 1990-ies using its words and expressions and could possibly have meant an infringement of copyright.

So I arranged a statement by the copyright owner to declare the tale as a public resource and replaced the tale summary with a reference and link.

And let the lyrics stay included – it is short and has been there for 9 years without adverse reactions. The lyrics are not burdened with any copyright, still, if need be, I have secured a permission by the Scouts Association in UK to publish copies of the song book pages with “Ging Gang Goo” (from 1952 and 1957). In the European Union the copyright ends after 75 years. So the 1905 variant is in the public domain, its “documentor” died in 1922.

NOLYRICS

“2.Lyrics databases. An article about a song should provide information about authorship, date of publication, social impact, and so on. Quotations from a song should be kept to a reasonable length relative to the rest of the article, and used to facilitate discussion, or to illustrate the style; the full text can be put on Wikisource and linked to from the article. Most song lyrics published after 1922 are protected by copyright, and any quotation of them must be kept to a minimum, and used for the purpose of direct commentary or to illustrate some aspect of the style. Never link to the lyrics of copyrighted songs unless the site linked to clearly has the right to distribute the work. See Wikipedia:Do not include the full text of lengthy primary sources for full discussion.”

First, I found that most Articles in WP on older songs have lyrics included.

The strategy for updating the GGG Article and including the song was presented 2012 (Talk page: “Suggested questions for discussion”) and 2015 (Talk page: “Plan and Comments for Revamp”). No one commented on those. The reason for presenting the two lyrics variants was given in the latter one: “the very earliest 1905 and the earliest English one 1957 (for comparison in a table)”.

I also commented in the Talk the Wikipedia principle: no lyrics in full.

Now to NOLYRICS conditions. Copyright, see NPS above. Further, the song is short. The comparison of the lyrics has two purposes:
 * It shows that the two variants are very much the same, although they differ in time, geography and spelling. Thus it helps to disprove the now 9 years old WP propagated myth of Baden-Powell as author/composer of the song.
 * It shows what is song gibberish

Thus the lyrics facilitate discussion and illustrate the style. (Mind you the discussion about meaning and origin may well continue.)

Re Lyrics and comparison: The choice then stood between including images of the song (1905 and 1952) - which might have spiced up the Article somewhat - or give plain text variants. For readability and to speed up publication I choose plain text.

Ergo

Based on the above reasoning I intend to return the WP Article on “Ging Gang Goolie” to its former state including the lyrics. I look forward to comments.Brommabo (talk) 13:52, 18 June 2015 (UTC)