User:CJLippert/archive/2008

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‫·‏לערי ריינהארט‏·‏T‏·‏m‏:‏Th‏·‏T‏·‏email me‏·‏‬ 07:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Berry Creek Rancheria
Another editor has added the " " template to the article Berry Creek Rancheria, suggesting that it be deleted according to the proposed deletion process. All contributions are appreciated, but the editor doesn't believe it satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion, and has explained why in the article (see also What Wikipedia is not and Notability). Please either work to improve the article if the topic is worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia or discuss the relevant issues at its talk page. If you remove the  template, the article will not be deleted, but note that it may still be sent to Articles for deletion, where it may be deleted if consensus to delete is reached. BJBot (talk) 15:44, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Asubpeeschoseewagong First Nation‎
I have reverted your edit of Asubpeeschoseewagong First Nation‎. WP does not include contact info in articles. See What_Wikipedia_is_not for a guideline. -- Alan Liefting- talk - 02:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Anishinabek of the Gitchi Gami
Anishinabek of the Gitchi Gami was deleted because it was NPOV and written like an ad and went uncontested. (I didn't consider it notable enough to have an article so I did not defend it.) If I can obtain the original version I might be able to salvage that but that requires admin abilities. I'll try asking someone after I fix up FWFN. I don't have a camera but I know people who do, I may be able to get pictures of their business park or arena, etc., and maybe an image of the reserve from McKay. I'll ask around on Flickr.  vıd ıoman  18:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Kechewaishke
Since that good discussion that came out of User:Herbwag's comments, I've been expanding the Kechewaishke article, and I'm starting to see it as a potential future-GA or even FA. There is a lot of work still to be done (my semi-incoherent grammar for one), but I don't think it can be called a stub anymore. I realize you have a lot on your plate, but a reassessment with comments would be much-appreciated. Chi-miigwech. Leo1410 (talk) 20:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Did some clean-up, but there wasn't much to clean-up. Also, gave it "A" for IPNA/Nish but only "B" for WI... see comments on why.  But yes, once those points mentioned in the comments are added and last of issues Herbwag have expressed are addressed... and also have in-line citations to the references listed... then yes, I think at that point the article will be ready as a potential GA or FA. CJLippert (talk) 00:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Numbered Treaties
As you wish... I'm in no rush. In some ways, I felt kind of bad making that template when there were so few actual articles. Sometimes I feel like wikipedia editors (myself included) are more interested in organizing than adding content. From what I see, you are going to the effort of actually researching, creating and expanding articles, so I appreciate that. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 04:22, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Lumber baron
Thanks for following me around and adding this link. You might try Muskegon, Michigan (Hackley), Saginaw, Michigan, Grayling, Michigan, Killmaster, Michigan, Bay City, Michigan, Gaylord, Michigan, Alpena, Michigan and Black River, Michigan. You can follow Russell Alger everywhere, too. Some of those cities' articles may not mention the lumber barons explicitly, but we a little bit of mining (google) a lot of their history and landmarks are tied to lumber barons. Best regards. 7&amp;6=thirteen (talk) 20:29, 22 February 2008 (UTC)Stan
 * You're welcome... but me following you around is just a coincidence. My link journey started with Hanging Cloud then I began doing a Google search and came up with only 87 instances of "lumber baron" and so all I was doing was going through them one after another. CJLippert (talk)
 * I understand. I've encountered similar coincidences, or parallel gutters.  Anyway, you might look at the Lumberman's Monument, and Hartwick Pines (and "Hartwick" anywhere -- big lumber baron), plus the other virgin white pine forest that is listed at the Lumberman's Monument.  Can't remember the name, but its over in the nw corner of Michigan.  You'll find it.  If you're doing lumber barons, Michigan is a great place to start.  It was like the 'Silicon valley' of its time, and created vast numbers of millionaires.  2 billion board feet of lumber will do that.  Rasmus Hanson was one that I found particularly ironic: after detroying the habiitat in which the Grayling survived, he tried to revive them.  He deserves his own article.  Anyway, you're doing good work.  Best regards.  7&amp;6=thirteen (talk) 00:18, 23 February 2008 (UTC)Stan

Thank You
Dear CJLippert, thank you for adding the additional reading for the Genizaro page! Great contribution!

Bernardo —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bgalleg (talk • contribs) 07:02, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Wahnapitae

 * discussion moved to User_talk:Bearcat

Sagamore (title)
Thanks for your additions to Sagamore (title). I just want to check that you're sure the words you're adding are all cognates in the literal sense. A few of them look like they might not be. Thanks! - House of Scandal (talk) 16:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There are two types there, the ones derived from Proto-Eastern Algonquian sākimāw and the ones derived from the Proto-Central Algonquian hākimāw, but both types carry identical meaning of "chief." CJLippert (talk) 16:34, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
 * That's great! It sounds like you're working from a good source.  Can you please reference it?  Best wishes - House of Scandal (talk) 17:01, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:MountSenarioCollegeLogo.png
Hi CJLippert!

We thank you for uploading Image:MountSenarioCollegeLogo.png, but there is a problem. Your image is currently missing information on its copyright status. Wikipedia takes copyright very seriously. Unless you can help by adding a copyright tag, it may be deleted by an Administrator. If you know this information, then we urge you to add a copyright tag to the image description page. We apologize for this, but all images must confirm to policy on Wikipedia.

If you have any questions, please feel free to ask them at the media copyright questions page. Thanks so much for your cooperation. This message is from a robot. --John Bot III (talk) 02:06, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Good map
CJ, I just wanted to let you know that I stumbled across this map of yours (Image:MN-Terr-1849-1851.jpg), and thought that it is very good. Colors, historically, format... it's just a plain good map. Thank you for your contribution. &mdash;ScouterSig 18:19, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks, there is a similar map for St. Croix County, Wisconsin. CJLippert (talk) 21:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Peter Jones
Okay, thanks. The disambiguation of titles is not a particularly rigourous area - once it hits a GA nom, maybe someone will drag out an obscure section of the Manual o' Style, but until then I'll move it to the simpler Peter Jones (missionary) or (Missionary), depending on the usual convention. Cheers, Wily D 20:45, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
 * For clarity, and in case any third parties are ever involved in editing Peter Jones (missionary), I'll start putting messages on its talk page, instead of asking you directly? Should I drop you a line, or are you watching it?  Anyways, I got Jones' spelling for Golden Eagle's name, which I saw you put a note about. Cheers, Wily D  12:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do have Peter Jones (missionary) on my watchlist. I try to have all articles tagged with WP:IPNA/Nish template on my watchlist, though new articles generally just get the WP:IPNA template or in rare cases the article creator do actually use the WP:IPNA/Nish template, so every so many months, I just make a sweep of all the WP:IPNA and converting some to WP:IPNA/Nish, and then adding the new WP:IPNA/Nish articles to my watchlist.  CJLippert (talk) 14:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

John Jones
Hmm - this I'm not so sure. I'm planning to look more into John in the future, but he's listed here as John Jones / Thayendanegea / Tyantenagen - I'll look at Sacred Feathers when I'm at home, but I'm not sure what it says. Since he shares his name with Joseph Brant, it's quite hard to track. The Dictionary of Canadian Biography gives the same two spelings. DCB gives the meaning of Brant's name as "he sets or places together two bets" but is alternately given as "two sticks bound together", for instance. Wily D 18:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

John Cameron (chief)
This is an automated message from CorenSearchBot. I have performed a web search with the contents of John Cameron (chief), and it appears to include a substantial copy of http://www.biographi.ca/EN/ShowBio.asp?BioId=37175. For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions will be deleted. You may use external websites as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences.

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Speedy deletion of John Cameron (chief)
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Treaty Four
I'd be happy to make some edits, but I'm afraid I don't totally understand the politics of Treaty groups. In Treaty 4, you've included
 * Grand Rapids First Nation—council member, but not a Treaty 4 signatory

If they aren't a Treaty 4 signatory, how are they a Treaty 4 nation? Is there a distinction between their status and Standing Buffalo First Nation (not an original Treaty 4 signatory but is recognized)?

If these are non-treaty nations that just happen to be in the same area, or politically aligned with nations are are signatories, I'm not sure they should be included in the template, or even in the Treaty 4 article. If that's the case, it would make more sense to create new articles (and templates?) for these tribal councils, wouldn't it? - TheMightyQuill (talk) 00:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Treaty 4 do not have a Grand Council, just as Treaty 3 does. However, there are 2 (out of 3) non-Treaty signatory FN that are considered part of Treaty 4.  All the Regional Chiefs' Councils with members affiliated with Treaty 4 are listed, but not all members of the RCC are Treaty 4 signatories or affiliated with Treaty 4. CJLippert (talk) 00:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's kind of what I suspected. Why do you want to include the Regional Chief's Councils on the Treaty 4 page, when some are not explicitly Treaty 4 Tribal Councils? I would understand including them in First Nations in Manitoba/First Nations in Saskatchewan or Cree/Saulteaux pages, because they are regional/ethnic organizations not treaty-based. The fact that none the tribal councils even have articles doesn't help either. =) - TheMightyQuill (talk) 14:57, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Because the Regional Chiefs' Councils out there are also the Tribal Political Organizations, so either the individual First Nation might discuss with Canada regarding certain Treaty 4 clarification, but when it comes to the collective ("collective", in this case being that of the Regional Chiefs' Council), it is the RCC that brings these topics up. Now if they have a Grand Council like Treaty 3, then yes, everything is clearly defined, but that is not the case with Treaty 4. CJLippert (talk) 23:03, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sure that happens, but the Assembly of First Nations might argue on behalf of Treaty 4 nations too, without being a "treaty 4 organization." I hope I'm not sounding argumentative. I really do appreciate your knowledge and opinion here, I'm just not convinced these two things go together. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Pahkatequayang
Sago CJLippert, First of all thank you for your ongoing contributions to native North American history and cultural articles, it is appreciated. I am currently in the process of attempting to improve the "History" section of the London, Ontario article and I am experiencing some difficulty. As it now exists, the section attributes the name "Kotequogong" to an early community on the site of the present city, however thus far, I am only able to trace that name to a paper dealing with flood control issues from a few years back and it is not attributed in that context. I have been able to find another name applied to the area now in the centre of present day London, "Pahkatequayang", in a 19th century source found here and I wonder if it is possible if you could check with your own language sources for any information on what it, or a close variant, might actually mean? I am going to make this request of at least one other editor who might be able to help as well, but feel free to consult anyone who you think might be able to offer advice. Once again, thank you. regards Deconstructhis (talk) 21:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * When I get back in town in a few days, I will look into this a bit deeper, but for now, my initial guess is baagwaatigweyaaang "At the Shallow Stream", but the problem with this initial guess is that this would have most likely been romanized as "pahq u atequayang" and the my guess contains an extra -w- that should have either appeared or the -waa- would have been most likely romanized instead to either -o- or -oo-, but not -a-. CJLippert (talk) 00:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, another possibility: Baketigweyaang "At the River Fork" (lit: at where the by-stream is). CJLippert (talk) 00:14, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And another possibility: Bakwetigweyaang "At the stream that tears [away at the banks]". CJLippert (talk) 14:51, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Marburg72
I have just filed an RfC about user Marburg72, about whose edits you recently expressed concenrs on Fringe theories/Noticeboard. If you would like to add any comments, under the headings "Other users who endorse this summary", or "Outside view" or in the "Users who endorse this summary:" at the end of Marburg72's "Response" section, please do so. David Trochos (talk) 22:22, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Heads Up
(Just posted this to the talk pages of a few Iroquoian and related articles in the Toronto region)

"In my opinion those editors who are interested in contributing to articles regarding historical Iroquoian/Mississauga cultural matters in the Toronto region in general, may be interested in reading the following. A quick Internet search for Mr. "Redwolf" [Nexus news is best] and connected interests, indicates to me that many of the (in my opinion) "questionable" editing choices in Toronto regional historical native articles, over the past while, reflect a theoretical bias toward the ideas of a U.S. based group who call themselves the "Erie Moundbuilders Tribal Nation", with whom Mr. "Redwolf" apparently now publicly self identifies. Those of you who have edited articles in the recent past on these subjects will probably quickly recognize this group. (see news story link above and past versions and discussion pages of Neutral Nation and Erie nation articles.)" regards Deconstructhis (talk) 00:31, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. CJLippert (talk) 02:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Plea for help
Hi CJ: I'm coming to you because you've done quite a bit of work on the Anishinaabe language article. The following was recently added to the Red-winged Blackbird article, and we're not sure if it's true or some particularly creative vandalism. (It was added by an anonymous IP.) Any chance you can shed some light?
 * In one dialect of the Anishinaabe language, an Indigenous language spoken throughout much of the bird's Northeastern range, the name for the Red-winged Blackbird is Memiskoniinisi (containing the word 'red'), which does not refer to its blackness however. In another dialect it is referred to as Memiskonigwiigaans (containing the words 'red' and 'wing') Other dialects refer to its blackness, calling it Memiskondinimaanganeshiinh (which includes 'red' and 'bird').

Thanks for any help you can give us! MeegsC | Talk 08:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. CJLippert (talk) 14:23, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much! Interesting additions... MeegsC | Talk 14:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Name
Actually I was going for the idea of being a hybrid bear and cat... Bearcat (talk) 11:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, OK. Thanks. CJLippert (talk) 14:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Peter Jones (more)
I'm thinking I'm about ready to nominate him for Good Article status, but I'm bothered by the lack of information on his contributions to writing Ojibwe. I kind of gather his orthography is dead now, but any info you know where it might be found would help immense-like. Wily D 20:01, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Other than to the books that have links, I don't know of any other. I don't know if you can tell this, but if you look at the titles that are in Ojibwe (but not the Fiero ones I've provided), you will notice four different orthographies in play:
 * "O zhe pe e kun nun ..." is the first orthography we encounter. The opening hymn in that book is "Noo sa, ke zhe pe ne ka toon \ Che we too kah we yun;...."
 * in the case of the N U g U mouin U n gen U n U g U mouat igiu anishinabeg an U miajig, the editor seems to have made an orthographic error, as Anishinaabeg in that orthography ought to be " U nishin U bag", not "anishinabeg". The eighth hymn there is "No se ki zhi bi ni ke ton \ Ji ui do ka ui i U n;...." Notice that "u" is distinct from " U ".
 * "Manwahjemoowin kahezhebeegaid owh St. John" and this type of orthography seems to be the most common, and this is the orthography used by George Copway (with slight variation from time to time).
 * "Minuajimouin gaizhibiiget au St. John" seems to be a pure editorial redaction of "Manwahjemoowin kahezhebeegaid owh St. John"
 * Oh, that hymn is Noose, gi-zhiibiniketoon \ ji-wiidookaawiyaan;....: "Father, I stretch out my arms to you \ for you will help me;...." CJLippert (talk) 22:15, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I mean, I've seen some Canadian Government Press release suggesting that he's the first person to try and do any writing system for Ojibwe (presumably his 1828 spelling book?), but I haven't been able to get any more than that. I may be a little out of my depths on the subject though (or a press release could be wrong).  But this seems like a possible "missing piece" for an feature push. Wily D  03:56, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Jones was not the first to put Ojibwe in writing, let alone romanized writing. The oldest Ojibwe manuscripts were all pictographic. The Jesuits have recorded Ojibwe as early as the 1690's... but they were in either Latin or in French with notes regarding the Ojibwe or their culture and the recorded Ojibwe names of people, places, things and ideas were written with a French orthography. John Heckewelder was one of first to record Ojibwe in relation to English in the early 1800's, though it was not made readily available to the public until 1887. Thomas Lorraine Mckenney's "Sketches of a tour to the Lakes..." and Charles F. Morton's "Vocabulary of the Ojibwa..." published a sizable list of Ojibwe words in 1827. However, Jones may have been the first person to create a book entirely (or near entirely) in romanized Ojibwe in 1828. Considering that Ojibwe was a lingua franca of the Great Lakes region until about 1850, you'd think there would be more liturature out there, wouldn't you? CJLippert (talk) 04:34, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Specifically, see the end of the fourth paragraph: http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/newsroom/index_e.cfm?fuseaction=displayDocument&DocIDCd=7NR133
 * The reason provided are all good, except for this clause: "Mr. Jones was the first to make Ojibwa a written language." Now, if the idea was that the Jones was the first to advocate systematic writing of the Ojibwe language using European (i.e. Roman) script, then yes, I'm almost certain he was. However, since Ojibwe of old was a written language using pictographs, saying that Jones was first to make Ojibwe a written language is a bit misleading. CJLippert (talk) 04:46, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Looking at this, it appears the push for a systematic romanized writing of Ojibwe grew out of Jones' Methodist Day School that ran in the early 1820s. CJLippert (talk) 05:07, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'll read over the paper - it looks to be of interest anyhow. They may be playing up his importance, or playing down the value of pictographs (or just sloppy reporters) but if its not addressed, I think it'll be a butt-biter. Wily D  13:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * That's interesting reading; I think you've been holdin' out on me ;) Seriously, though, if the orthography he was laying down doesn't persist very long, it may not be that important.  But I think a little information on the early Methodist day schools will help highlight Peter's importance in the church derived from his being an Ojibwa, so this is pretty valuable.  Thanks again. Wily D  16:17, 31 July 2008 (UTC)