User:Catalpa/Sandbox

=U2 Joujouka/Jajouka and Ireland= There is a very major piece of publicity for the new U2 Cd that cites the "Joujouka drummers" as an influence Sean O'Hagan Obverver Music Monthly 15 Feb 2009 " "What's happening down here is beyond reason," Bono had enthused, when the idea of me shadowing them had first been broached. "Spirits are hovering. We're chasing the Joujouka drummers and different structures for pop."

The legendary Joujouka drummers drew both Brian Jones and William Burroughs to Fez in the late 60s, but this time around, other guiding spirits were also at work. Every night, as darkness fell, the haunting voices of devotional Sufi singers would rise up and drift across the rooftops, their song-prayers lasting for hours at a time. "There was definitely something in the air down there," Bono will tell me later. "And we picked up on it."

"

that is an interesting recent reference to Joujouka from one of the most famous people in the world. It is also something that must reflect on the jajouka/joujouka issues related to the village name. the article was picked up by many different papers and I has been translated and reprinted in several different languages over the past few weeks.

Catapla (talk) 09:23, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Re BKL edit above stating "Another point, Joujoukan quality is not the same as Jajouka or even Joujouka. This is hardly an endorsement of opiumjones' "Joujouka" band by the group U2" This is a misquote by BKLIsenbee (not for the first time)and makes no sense as U2 have a historical connection with MMOJoujouka going back to 1992.

It must be remembered that the Master Musicians of Joujouka played in U2s bar in Dublin at the Clarence Hotel in 1992 at the invitation of one of the hotel's owner. The opening of their bar was planned to coincide with the opening of the Here To Go Show which took place in the Project Arts Centre right across the street. I will dig out the refs. BKL might try google maps and see Essex St, Dublin 2. I am sure there is a photo in print from that somewhere I must track it down.U2 are also close to the people who run the official Brion Gysin site so I think that they are aware of what is what. The Masters also recorded a session for Ireland's most influential radio DJ Dave Fanning whose role in helping make  U2's career is well documented. The 1992 session was produced by Jim Lockhart from Horslips. It was Barry Devlin from Horslips who produced the first U2 demo tapes. So those connections are old and very solid!!!!! Last summer Dave Fanning's show also featured an extensive half hour interview with Joujouka producer Frank Rynne Dave Fanning Show 7/7/2008 this interview on [RTE] is a primary source also as was the BBC The Beat World Service piece on the Brian Jones 40th Anniversary Festival in joujouka. Should the Festival have its own Wiki page? Someone should start one. It must be borne in mind that the Masters first played in Ireland in 1980 and featured in the ground breaking documentary Atlantean_(documentary_series) by Bob Quinn. This was where many Irish people first discovered the Master Musicians. . Master Musicians in Ireland I believe there is a paper on line that was published first by Coventry University which refers to this quoting Master Musician Mujehid Mujdoubie (died 1998 at 84 years) recalling his visit to Ireland. This was part of an academic conference called Living in a Material World which was convened by Dr. Andrew Beck. Therefore I hope that the negative spin about Irish people and Joujouka that appears on the web written by BKL and his friends might be viewed through this prism and seen for the propaganda and disinformation in the cause of Bachir Attar's false claims that it is.Catapla (talk) 20:56, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * audio Dave Fanning show 30 min interview

Another issue that Svest has said he will not support I think needs some extra input.

the fact is there as sattated that the master Musicians of joujouka have also been known as the Master musicians of Jajouka in print and on records. As this is a verifiable fact and I have added the refs it is encyclopaedia level  info. Why are you against it? It is a fact. I explained how the current MMOJopujouka leader tour managed and played on the 1980 tour billed as MMOjajouka and released the 1974 LP which Joel Rubiner was forced to call MMOjajouka because he was violating the contracts he had signed by releasing the record withjout the approval of the musicians association?

A recent exhibition in London featureed photos taken during the mis down of that LP at Tridnet studiio which was donbe by Hamri Brion Gysin and Barry Miles. Miles took the photos in question.

Bachir attar
" Bachir Attar carries on his father's Attar family traditions with a new generation of "master musicians" descended from members of his father's group. They include his brother Abdellah Attar and the son of the famous drum master, Mohamed "Berdous" Attar. Other members include Mokhtar Jagdal, and Mohamed Attar, moqadeem of the shrine of Sidi Ahmed Sheikh. Hamri had sold the copyright for the music to Brian Jones, and Bachir Attar had to negotiate with The Estate of Brian Jones and The Rolling Stones for the loan of their ancient music for the issue."Hamri had sold the copyright for the music to Brian Jones, and Bachir Attar had to negotiate with The Estate of Brian Jones and The Rolling Stones for the loan of their ancient music for the issue."

1/ This section contains no references at all. Re "Bachir Attar carries on his father's Attar family traditions with a new generation of "master musicians" descended from members of his father's group." firstly it has been established that claims his father led the group are not established by references prior to his fathers death. Indeed I cant find any before Bachir claimed to be a leader by some kind of primogeniture. In the case of primogeniture succession passes to eldest heir. In this case it is the opportunistic heir. no basis for either claim and no ref so ???

2/ Can anyone prove or show an independent ref that show Berdouz's son plays with Bachir Attar? For all anyone knows the Mohamed Attar who plays with MMOJoujouka is Berdouz's son. No refs to it in independent sources. I personally know the man in question and he does not play with MMOJoujouka in general though he is on a friendly basis with the Master in the village. He lives in Ksar El Kebir and he has recently got out of the Moroccan army plus he is a very nice man but this needs a ref for here and I can't [prove he is in that group.

"Other members include Mokhtar Jagdal, and Mohamed Attar, moqadeem of the shrine of Sidi Ahmed Sheikh." Is the Mohamed Attar here the same Mohamed Attar referred to in the sentence above as the son of Berdouz? sorry I see its Mohamed Attar, moqadeem of the shrine of Sidi Ahmed Sheikh. Unfortunately that ref is definitely incorrect as that Mohamed Attar can not play anymore due to health problems and was not on either the recent Bachir live album nor the recent tour. Any ref for his position as moquadam?

Mocktar Jagdall has played on Joujouka Black Eyes (1995) ans Sufi (1996)by MMOJOujouka, and 10%:file Under Burroughs by Various Artists. He no longer lives in the village but he does play with Bachir on and off he also played on Steel Wheels by Rolling Stones.

"Hamri had sold the copyright for the music to Brian Jones, and Bachir Attar had to negotiate with The Estate of Brian Jones and The Rolling Stones for the loan of their ancient music for the issue." This needs nore than a third party ref of which there is none. It is a suggestion and a spin which is incorrect, can anyone show me these contacts? If not I think the Hamri family would have an actionable issue there as his heirs they would in theory own these rights? Any proof or references? This is ververy dangerous ground to be making such definite statements without references. The rules dictate what to do it must be removed.

Brian Jones owned the masters tapes but was under contract to Allen Klein's Musidor, therefore Musidor owned the master tapes. This was the case when Brian Jones was still alive as refereed to in Stone Alone by Bill Wyman. The songs were registered with the PRS/MCPS on behalf of the musicians as is normal and the imputation of some dodgy dealing is slanderous, is POV and is unreferenced. please redact.

If someone can find an alleged reference then I will outline the contra evidence ie I will have to email Svest confirmation of those  registration details (again). The songs were registered on behalf of the musicians association. This is what led to the violent attack on Hamri in his home in 1995 (have I sent you the Moroccan criminal court documents? they are not public domain either so maybe they are not relevant) I suggest complete removal until there  there is an alleged reference. Complete POV unverified serious allegation removal  is the only option ie immediate removal. Catapla (talk) 01:30, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Attar did negotiate with Musidor but I doubt if they would be as accomadting should he attempt that again!!!! In 1995 they were under the impresion that he had some hereditory rights, that myth has been well and truly busted in the Rolling Stones circlesa as evidenced by attendee at last years festival.

I will do more tomorrow Catapla (talk) 01:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)