User:Choess/Pretenders

Hey, Wikipedia is great, rah rah, whatever. Unfortunately, while some editors are zealots for esoterica and accuracy, some are interested in promoting their pet esoteric causes. There are periodic edit wars over pretenders.

Portugal
The controversy centers around Hilda Toledano, alias Maria Pia of Braganza, Maria Pia de Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Braganca, Maria Pia de Saxe Coburg Braganca, Maria Pia de Saxe Coburg Braganza, and her supposed successor Rosario Poidimani, alias Dom Rosario Saxe Coburg Gotha Bragança. The lady claimed to be the illegitimate daughter of the last King of Portugal, which is not entirely outside the realm of possibility, and to have been legitimated and made an Infante of Portugal, which is. Before her death, she adopted Poidimani as her successor. User:M.deSousa (also User:82.48.225.175 User:82.50.179.63 User:82.50.180.99 User:82.50.180.253 User:82.50.183.185 User:82.50.183.202 User:82.51.30.205 User:82.51.31.34 User:82.52.176.179 User:82.52.181.21 User:82.52.181.131 User:82.52.181.186 User:82.54.227.167 User:82.54.245.179 User:82.54.247.122 User:82.54.247.159 User:82.58.216.7 ...I got bored at this point, there are many more... and User:213.45.187.35) has been engaged in a long edit war to promote her claims. He can be seen in his usual form here, for instance. De Sousa is the "Grand Chancellor" to Poidimani, and will generally accuse opponents of being "Duarteists".

Interestingly, based on discussion in alt.talk.royalty, the "adoption" of Poidimani may not have gone uncontested by Maria Pia's natural children. As Poidimani and de Sousa appear to be the only active promoters of the claim at present, it's hard to say anything definitive about this.

Poidimani unsuccessfully sued Guy Stair Sainty for libel for publishing a refutation of these claims. He appears to be using his invented style for a variety of possibly dodgy investment projects.

Holstein
User:212.142.7.4 and User:62.166.121.172. Has a website here.

Michael Lafosse
Supposed Jacobite Duke of Albany with a faked pedigree. The initial article seems to have been propagandistic, but the nuttier claims were quickly debunked.

Count of Tyrone
I've created it to hold the history of this title, current claims to which conflict. Confusion starts at the death of the 8th Count ("after 1887"). Edits made to Earl of Tyrone (which I plan to remove eventually) claim that the 9th Count is James (Jacques?), b. 1937. Ó Neill Dynasty Today claims that the 9th Count is "Jean d'Tyrone" (but it said "Seamus" before editing by the same user who changed Earl of Tyrone). A message on alt.talk.royalty says that after the death of Owen O'Neill, the title "...was not assumed, so far as is known, by any of the O'Neill family until the 19th century, when a family of O'Neill [in] France and Martinique adopted the style of Comte de Tyrone. In 1901, on the death of the las[t] heir male of this family, Jorge O'Neill, of Lisbon, a Peer of the Kingdom of Portugal, styled himself Comte de Tyrone..." (Jorge's son Hugo is now styled the Count of Tyrone and Clanaboy.) If the 1901 death referred to was, in fact, the 8th Count, it throws the legitimacy and 1622 date of the title into question. This webpage suggests that the title was transferred from the French-Martinican branch therein outlined by a pacte de famille to Hugo in 1901 &mdash; but also that they did not assume the title until after 1689, again calling into question the supposed Spanish Netherlands patent.
 * I can't help thinking this is - in part - yet another of those pretender entries where wiki endulges some nonsensical claims to various titles.Alci12 11:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well the problem, as much as anything, is that so much of the article seems contradictory, inconsistent or written by someone who doesn't understand the terms they are using. For instance "The Counts of Tyrone started as a Spanish Netherlands creation in 1621 when Patrick O'Neill, the second son of Sean O'Neill (eldest son of Earl Hugh O'Neill) was granted this courtesy title by Infanta Isabella of the Spanish Netherlands...The title was accepted by the King and the family moved to Martinique until 1888."


 * There is no such thing or person as Earl Hugh. What is this courtesy title? Courtesy titles usually mean one of two things the junior title to a higher title - in this case clearly not so - or recognition in a state of a foreign title. (The UK has/had warrants for the same thing) However recognition would not be the creation of a new title. If a title was created it is very unusual for foreign monarch to grant titles to lands they don't hold - for fear other monarchs would return the compliment. If the title were granted - under what terms of decent. The recognition, if it were so, by the KofFrance is irrelevant as he has no power to determine the titles status. These aren't my only quibbles but you'll gather I have issues with these entries!Alci12 15:49, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


 * There is some dispute as to the enumeration of the "Earls of Tyrone", but I think that the 2nd Earl of Tyrone was generally held to be Hugh the Great although others do not consider his son, Henry. He had several sons, one of which (John or Seán) became the 4rd Earl (or the 3rd?), see here:

* Conn O'Neill, 1st Earl of Tyrone (c. 1484-1559) * Hugh O'Neill, 2nd Earl of Tyrone (1550-1616) (forfeit under English law in 1607) * Henry O'Neill, 3rd Earl of Tyrone (d. 1610) Correction: Henry O'Neill was not 3rd Earl of Tyrone, because he predeceased his father. The holder of the titular position of Third Earl of Tyrone was his brother John/Sean, whose name follows. * Sean O'Neill, 4rd Earl of Tyrone, d. 1641 * Hugh Eugene O'Neill, 5th Earl of Tyrone, 1633-1650 (Hugo Eugenio or Hugh Eoghan, son of John) Correction: Hugo Eugenio O'Neill was titular 4th earl, not 5th earl of Tyrone. He was born illegitimately, but legitimized by the King of Spain. Correction: Insert:  Owen Roe O'Neill (died 6 November 1649) is sometimes assigned the positition of titular 5th earl of Tyrone. * Hugh Dubh O'Neill, 6th Earl of Tyrone, 1610-1660 (son of Art Óg son of Art Mac a' Bharúin) * Hugo O'Neill, 7th Earl of Tyrone, d. 1667 (Son of Henry Ruaidh and grandson of General Owen Roe O'Neill) * Brian Roe (Bernardo), 8th Earl of Tyrone, 1616-1685 (son of Conor Ruaidh, son of Art mac a' Bharúin   * Eugenio (Eoghan / Owen), 9th Conde de Tyrone, d. 1689 (Son of Bernando)
 * The John O'Neill highlighted above had a younger son (brother of Don Hugo Eugenio, Patrick O'Neill was also made Comte de Tyrone (of the Spanish Netherlands) by the Infanta Isabella of the Spanish Netherlands.

Correction: at the death of John/Sean O'Neill, it was clearly stated in contemporary records that he left only one son, Hugo Eugenio, at that time nine years old. "Conde de Tirone" is not a title given by the Spanish Netherlands, but just a Spanish translation of "Earl of Tyrone." There is no contemporary 17th century evidence in regard to the supposed Patrick O'Neill mentioned below.

According to Wiki:
 * A more fullsome account of the family is given here, under Count of Tyrone:
 * But then:
 * But then:
 * But then:


 * Counts of Tyrone (1623)

* Patrick O'Neill, 1st Count of Tyrone b. 1623. Insert: Not that Patrick O'Neill was older, not younger, than Hugo Eugenio O'Neill. * James O'Neill, 2nd Count of Tyrone (b. 1660), lived in Ireland then moved to Martinique * Henry O'Neill, 3rd Comte de Tyrone * Jacques Henri, 4th Comte de Tyrone, brother was Jean Laurent, 1st Viscount Tyrone, Dillon Regt * Paul Francois Henri, 5th Comte de Tyrone (b. 1749) * Jacques, 6th Comte de Tyrone (1783–1839), brother was Francois Henri, 2nd Viscount Tyrone * Louis Jacques Tiburce, 7th Comte de Tyrone (d. 1859) * Francois Henri, 8th Comte de Tyrone (brother of Louis Jacques) (d. aft. 1887) * title dormant 1887-1937 * Jaques, 9th Comte de Tyrone, claimed in 1937 and restored in 2006 by Vatican


 * I found this whilst looking for corroboration of Freiherr Von Bodman's existence :


 * Johann Hermann and Valentine O'Neill, however this would put their deaths in 1922 and 1913, respectively. Hardly living well into the Weimer republic.


 * Also, Augusta Eugenie Valentine O'Neill de Tyrone is mentioned in The Nobilities of Europe (Paperback) by Melville Henry Massue; marquis de Ruvigny (Author). 2000. $29.99 from Amazon and he has several books on the same theme.


 * Also, a Mary-Auguste-Eugenia-Valen tine, mar. to Hermann Baron de Bodinan is mentioned in Irish Pedigrees, by John Hart (1999) (Genealogical Publishing Company). It must be noted that the first edition was published in 1878.


 * Again, from the Genealogical Publishing company
 * County Tyrone Ireland, Genealogy and Family :::History Notes: Genealogy & Family History : :::Special Extracts from the Irish Archives
 * By Irish Genealogical Foundation (U.S.), Irish Genealogical Foundation, Michael C. O'Laughlin :::Published by Irish Roots Cafe, 2002
 * ISBN 0940134799, 9780940134799
 * 56 pages


 * Mary-Auguste-Eugenia-Valentine, mar. to Herman Baron de Bodman ("Grand Duché de Baden"). She supposedly had another two sisters; Mary-Anne Margaret and Mary-Anne-Thérese d. um. 1877. Daughters of Francis-Henry and Hermine de la Ponce and niece of Julien. Also mentioned is a certain Charles Count O'Neill de Tyrone (a cousin of Francis-Henry or Francois-Henri).

King Fernidad
The semi-coherent "King Fernidad Frederick" of Prussia, claims to be the son of a morganatic son of Prince August Wilhelm of Prussia and King of Prussia. The tenor of his internet postings suggest mental illness. Edited as User:68.111.191.29 and User:70.181.220.235.