User:Coppertwig/Sandbox2

Draft Table of Essential Nutrients
US RDI and Upper Limit tables can be found linked from for example, vitamin chart pdf at.

Daily adult human intake. Minimum: estimate of minimum required for most people to have normal health. Typical: estimate of average consumption. Optimum: estimate of amount required for best possible health. Therapeutic: amount that has sometimes been used to treat illness. Toxic: amount that has caused (serious) adverse reactions.

AIDS article: alternative therapies paragraph
(version of Dec. 6 2006)

Various forms of alternative medicine have been used to treat symptoms or alter the course of the disease. High doses of vitamin C have been used, for example, to treat AIDS, with good preliminary clinical results. In the first decade of the epidemic when no useful conventional treatment was available, a large number of people with AIDS experimented with alternative therapies. The definition of "alternative therapies" in AIDS has changed since that time. Then, the phrase often referred to community-driven treatments, untested by government or pharmaceutical company research, that some hoped would directly suppress the virus or stimulate immunity against it. These kinds of approaches have become less common over time as the benefits of AIDS drugs have become more apparent. Examples of alternative medicine that people hoped would improve their symptoms or their quality of life include massage, herbal and flower remedies and acupuncture; when used with conventional treatment, many now refer to these as "complementary" approaches. None of these treatments has been proven in controlled trials to be effective in treating HIV or AIDS.

Other references re vitamin C and AIDS:

"The highest levels of total intake (from food and supplements) of vitamins C and B, and niacin were associated with a significantly decreased progression rate to AIDS: " 1993, American Journal of Epidemiology, Vol. 138, No. 11: 937-951 Dietary Micronutrient Intake and Risk of Progression to Acquired Immunodeficiency Syndrome (AIDS) in Human Immunodeficiency Virus Type 1 (HlV-1)-infected Homosexual Men Alice M. Tang1, Neil M. H. Graham1,2, Alison J. Kirby1, L. Diane McCall1, Walter C. Willett3 and Alfred J. Saah1,2

Lower plasma ascorbate in HIV-positive: Vitamins C and E in adolescents and young adults with HIV infection 1,2,3 Charles B Stephensen, Grace S Marquis, Robert A Jacob, Laurie A Kruzich, Steven D Douglas and Craig M Wilson. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition Vol. 83, No. 4, 870-879, April 2006

in vitro results re high vitamin C reduces HIV virus: Increased Uptake and Accumulation of Vitamin C in Human Immunodeficiency Virus 1-infected Hematopoietic Cell Lines

(Received for publication, April 12, 1996, and in revised form, December 2, 1996) Coralia I. Rivas Dagger, Juan Carlos Vera Dagger, Victor H. Guaiquil Dagger, Fernando V. Velásquez Dagger, Oriana A. Bórquez-Ojeda Dagger, Juan G. Cárcamo ¶, Ilona I. Concha ¶ and David W. Golde Dagger

Vitamin C and AIDS
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 54, 1231S-1235S, Copyright © 1991 by The American Society for Clinical Nutrition, Inc

ORIGINAL RESEARCH COMMUNICATIONS Comparative study of the anti-HIV activities of ascorbate and thiol- containing reducing agents in chronically HIV-infected cells

S Harakeh and RJ Jariwalla

vitamin A, B12 and zinc status associated with disease progression

AIDS. 1995 Sep;9(9):1051-6. Links Micronutrients and HIV-1 disease progression.

* Baum MK, * Shor-Posner G,       * Lu Y,        * Rosner B,        * Sauberlich HE, * Fletcher MA, * Szapocznik J,       * Eisdorfer C,        * Buring JE, * Hennekens CH.

Vitamins C and E reduce viral load and oxidative stress same article same article, abstract

Effects of vitamin E and C supplementation on oxidative stress and viral load in HIV-infected subjects.

ARTICLES AIDS. 12(13):1653-1659, September 10, 1998. Allard, Johane P. 1,2; Aghdassi, Elaheh 1; Chau, Jenny 1; Tam, Carolyn 1; Kovacs, Colin M. 1; Salit, Irving E. 1; Walmsley, Sharon L. 1

successful treatment of 6 patients with lactic acidosis using B vitamin s and carnitine

AIDS: Volume 14(17) 1 December 2000 pp 2801–2802 Treatment of nucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitor-induced lactic acidosis [Correspondence]

Brinkman, Keesa; Vrouenraets, Saskiaa; Kauffmann, Robertb; Weigel, Hugoa; Frissen, Josa

A randomized trial of the impact of multiple micronutrient supplementation on mortality among HIV-infected individuals living in Bangkok.

CLINICAL SCIENCE AIDS. 17(17):2461-2469, November 21, 2003. Jiamton, Sukhum a,b; Pepin, Jacques c; Suttent, Reungpung d; Filteau, Suzanne e; Mahakkanukrauh, Bussakorn b; Hanshaoworakul, Wanna f; Chaisilwattana, Pongsakdi g; Suthipinittharm, Puan b; Shetty, Prakash h; Jaffar, Shabbar a

Micronutrient supplementation was found to reduce the death rate, especially among those with low CD4 cell counts.

Vitamins B,C and E reduce infant mortality to immunologically and nutritionally compromised women; vitamin A increases transmission.

Randomized trial of vitamin supplements in relation to transmission of HIV-1 through breastfeeding and early child mortality.

EPIDEMIOLOGY & SOCIAL AIDS. 16(14):1935-1944, September 27, 2002. Fawzi, Wafaie W a,b; Msamanga, Gernard I f; Hunter, David a,b; Renjifo, Boris c; Antelman, Gretchen a; Bang, Heejung b; Manji, Karim g; Kapiga, Saidi d; Mwakagile, Davis h; Essex, Max c; Spiegelman, Donna b,e

High-dose vitamin C and various illnesses: Annals Internal Medicine, April 6, 140: 533-37, 2004

Cathcart, Lancet letter Dr. Robert F. Cathcart III, MD. Letter to the Editor. The Lancet, Jan 27, 1990; 335:p235. http://www.mall-net.com/cathcart/lanaids.html

Medical Hypotheses, 14(4):423-433, Aug 1984. Cathcart

Brief though interesting paragraph re HIV, much info re herpes: Review: antiviral agents from plants and herbs, a systematic review. Karen W. Martin and Edzard Ernst Antiviral therapy 8:77-90 2003 International Medical Press (available online, but very long URL)

vitamin C against AIDS in vitro Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Vol 87, 7245-7249, Copyright © 1990 by National Academy of Sciences

ARTICLE Suppression of Human Immunodeficiency Virus Replication by Ascorbate in Chronically and Acutely Infected Cells

S Harakeh, RJ Jariwalla and L Pauling

Draft AIDS comment
Here is a suggested edit which I hope may solve both the dispute about the deletion of the vitamin C sentence and the dispute about the proposed deletion/modification of the sentence currently attached to the Mills footnote.

The suggestion:

Begin a new paragraph just before "Daily multivitamin supplements...", i.e. split the last two sentences off the second-last paragraph of the Treatment section. Combine these with the following paragraph and rewrite that paragraph so that the last paragraph of the Treatment section will read as follows:

Draft alternative treatment paragraph
Daily multivitamin supplements have been found to reduce HIV disease progression among men and women. This could become an important low-cost intervention provided during early HIV disease to prolong the time before antiretroviral therapy is required. Various forms of alternative medicine have also been used to treat symptoms or alter the course of the disease. Examples of alternative medicine that people have used in an effort to improve their symptoms, disease progression or quality of life include massage, stress management, acupuncture;, boxwood, and bowel-tolerance-dose vitamin C . When used with conventional treatment, many now refer to these as "complementary" approaches. There is a concerning shortage of studies to establish the effectiveness of complementary and alternative treatments for HIV/AIDS.

Reasons in support of this suggestion: If anyone objects to anything about this proposed edit, please discuss it here, and please propose alternative edits which address the above concerns, which satisfy the list of criteria (which I proposed earlier and which no one has objected to), and which you believe are likely to be accepted by all involved.
 * This suggestion addresses two ongoing disputes and hopefully may be a compromise solution to both of them.
 * This paragraph is factual and supported by citations.
 * It provides links and footnotes allowing the reader interested in alternative therapies to easily find more reading material on the subject.
 * It is shorter than the original. Some editors had expressed the opinion that the alternative therapy section was "too long".
 * It increases the prominence of the result about vitamin supplementation by moving this information to the beginning of a paragraph. At least one editor seems to have missed seeing this interesting information on earlier reading of the article.
 * It removes vague, misleading and uncited (as far as I see) material about the changing definition of alternative therapy. The current paragraph give the misleading impression that alternative therapies are no longer used much.  The phrase "community-based" doesn't seem to mean much:  surely every AIDS patient is in some sort of community?
 * The proposed paragraph mentions four or five alternative therapies for which there is some evidence of effectiveness. The Mills paper lists studies showing statistically significant support for stress management, massage and boxwood, while the Cathcart and Hickey references provide evidence in favour of bowel-tolerance-dose vitamin C.  (Does the Saltmarsh reference provide evidence in support of acupuncture for AIDS?)  The current version of the article mentions "flower remedies" for which I haven't seen evidence of effectiveness.
 * The current paragraph has no mention of vitamin C nor any link to further information on it. Mentioning vitamin C is important for the following reasons:
 * People with AIDS are typically able to consume 40 to 100 grams of vitamin C, according to Cathcart (1984), without the diarrhoea-like symptoms that a normal healthy person experiences on ingesting about 2 to 6 grams of the vitamin. This suggests that the body of a person with AIDS is able to consume and utilise these amounts of vitamin C.
 * For a number of other illnesses during which people are able to ingest larger than normal amounts of vitamin C without the usual side effects, there is some evidence that ingesting these amounts leads to reduction of symptoms of the sickness and improvement in health.
 * There is evidence from anecdotal reports from two different authors that large doses of vitamin C lead to clinical improvement in AIDS patients.
 * Vitamin C is known to be used in a number of ways by the immune system -- for example, chemotaxis, production of interferon and production of hydrogen peroxide for killing pathogens.
 * When animals who produce their own vitamin C (most mammals, for example) get sick, they produce increased amounts of vitamin C comparable to the bowel-tolerance-dose in humans.
 * Vitamin C is of low cost and low toxicity, therefore a simple cost-benefit analysis suggests that if there is a reasonable likelihood that it may be beneficial, it is worth using.
 * The last sentence of the Treatment section is currently in dispute. The last sentence of this proposed edit is a version of that sentence which more closely reflects the actual citation:  for example, the quote given above from the citation in support of the current sentence does not use the word "proven" but does use the words "concerning" and "established".  The vocabulary and overall message of this new proposed sentence are closer to the original meaning of the citation.

Hydraulic jump
may be useful. Has a cubic equation but with squared terms too?

Is nutrition included?
Is "alternative medicine" usually considered to include some nutritional approaches, e.g. "megavitamins"? Or not? --Coppertwig 11:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Good point. A number of approaches could be listed under that heading. Go ahead and add it, then look through the whole page and copy those you find to that heading. (Don't delete them from their original locations.) --  Fyslee  ( First law ) 11:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Content of page "Udo's Choice Food Pyramids"
Udo's Choice Food Pyramids are three nutritional advice pyramids developed by Udo Erasmus: one each for "healthy" people, "sick" people and "active" people. Pointing to growing levels of obesity and degenerative illnesses as evidence that conventional nutritional advice is not working, he developed these food pyramids which place more emphasis on green vegetables and good-quality plant oils such as in nuts and seeds, and less emphasis on carbohydrates and processed foods.

Migraine refs
Shows that red wine causes migraine: 1: Lancet. 1988 Mar 12;1(8585):558-9. Links Red wine as a cause of migraine.

* Littlewood JT, * Gibb C,       * Glover V,        * Sandler M,        * Davies PT, * Rose FC.

Bernhard Baron Memorial Research Laboratories, Queen Charlotte's Hospital, London.

Some support re foods based on questionnaire: Headache: The Journal of Head and Face Pain

Volume 15 Issue 3 Page 188 - October 1975

To cite this article: Katharina Dalton M.R.C.G.P (1975) FOOD INTAKE PRIOR TO A MIGRAINE ATTACK -STUDY OF 2,313 SPONTANEOUS ATTACKS Headache: The Journal of Head and Face Pain 15 (3), 188–193. doi:10.1111/j.1526-4610.1975.hed1503188.x

chocolate causing migraine Cephalalgia

Volume 11 Issue 2 Page 93 - May 1991

To cite this article: CM Gibb, PTG Davies, V Glover, TJ Steiner, F Clifford Rose, M Sandler (1991) Chocolate is a migraine-provoking agent Cephalalgia 11 (2), 93–95. doi:10.1046/j.1468-2982.1991.1102093.x

review rejects studies Ann Allergy Asthma Immunol. 2003 Sep;91(3):233-40; quiz 241-2, 296. Links Intolerance to dietary biogenic amines: a review.

* Jansen SC, * van Dusseldorp M,       * Bottema KC, * Dubois A

discussion Clin Rev Allergy. 1994 Summer;12(2):167-80. Links The role of food in the pathogenesis of migraine headache.

* Vaughan TR. --- review of food and headache Cephalalgia. 1982 Jun;2(2):111-24.Click here to read Links Foods, and food and drug combinations, responsible for head and neck pain.

* Seltzer S.

Kohlenberg reviews Hanington's studies and finds some support
 * Headache. 1982 Jan;22(1):30-4. Links

Tyramine sensitivity in dietary migraine: a critical review.

* Kohlenberg RJ.

--- can't see abstract, don't know result:
 * J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry. 1974 Apr;37(4):445-8. Links

Effect of chocolate in migraine: a double-blind study.

* Moffett AM, * Swash M,       * Scott DF.

claims, but no proof, that foods cause migraine
 * Rev Neurol. 1996 May;24(129):534-8. Links

[Diet and migraine] [Article in Spanish]

* Leira R,       * Rodriguez R.

How food can cause migraines (summarizes a few results)
 * http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1019&context=uclabiolchem/nutritionbytes

--- clinical summary (medlink) Headache associated with acute substance use or exposure

By

Peter J Goadsby

Uncommon Dissent book reviews
favourable

Wikipedia:Attribution arguments
This is not about whether attibution should be a requirement of inclusion. This is about whether this policy can be used to allow or insist on the inclusion, as statements being made by Wikipedia, of statements which are known to be false but which are attributable to publications that meet the Wikipedian criterion for "reliable sources". This is about whether the whole purpose of Wikipedia is to try to present reliable information.


 * Re the covered bridge example: If the editor who saw the bridge first-hand convinces the other editors that the bridge is not covered, then they should delete from the article the statement about the bridge being covered.  If there is disagreement, then there is a content dispute, and they need to discuss and resolve it;  one possible result would be to replace "The bridge is covered." with "Source X states that the bridge is covered."  There is nothing wrong with an editor expressing on a talk page opinions, personal knowledge or original research in an effort to convince other editors;  they could email photos of the bridge to other editors, for example, to support their argument about deleting the statement, even if the photos would not be acceptable on a Wikipedia article page for one reason or another.  In any case, no one should knowingly advocate leaving a false statement in Wikipedia.  "Source X states that the bridge is covered" is generally not false even if "The bridge is covered" is false.

Temporary stuff
Change in preparation for installing new infobox without immediate change in display; see Talk:Birth control/Archive2


 * rate_type           = Failure

Truth timeline
Feb. 16
 * SlimVirgin posts, with edit summary "editors please note", "...editors have agreed on a means of merging...There are no policy innovations suggested..."

The next few edits left it like this: Feb 18
 * 

Merzul, if we start making changes to policy and changes to key terms, this proposal will fail. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:24, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

2-5 Feb. In straw poll at Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Archive 9, two users support putting a tag on the new policy.

I would change the wording slightly from "attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true" to "attributable to a reliable published source, not solely whether it is true." The current construction implies that we don't have any problem with including actually false information, which is of course silly. DCB4W 01:26, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you really suggesting that an editor who knowingly includes cited, but false, information, is helping write the encyclopedia? ... DCB4W 16:20, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it might be best to just keep the name it "Verifiability". —Centrx→talk • 19:33, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe it was ever the intent of WP:NOR to permit false statements to be included on Wikipedia as "statements of fact", and I am concerned that the proposed policy change would lead to this very outcome. Comments welcome. CJCurrie 01:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

"Strong objection"  A435(m) 22:29, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

23 Feb. CJcurrie said:   "It seems to me that an overly strict reading "The threshold for inclusion [is] not whether it is true" will open the door for unscrupulous editors to convey attributable information that they know to be factually inaccurate as simple statements of fact. I cannot help but think that this would compromise the reputation of our project. CJCurrie 03:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)"

On my talk page: "There is no dispute. Several experienced editors have told you there isn't, and if you continue, you may face administrative action, so I urge caution. Please consider taking my advice and gaining more editing experience before you jump into protracted policy discussion. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:04, 11 March 2007 (UTC)"

... Either we ignore source A, or we are forced to include a statement like "source A says the railroad opened in 1860, but other sources say 1861" despite our knowledge of which is correct. --NE2 05:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

"... We weighed the evidence, and simply excluded the ones we believed were false...." --AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

"Incidentally, I don't believe that saying that published sources are wrong is OR. We are allowed to do things to decide what goes in articles, that we couldn't actually *put* in the articles. The canonical example is that we're allowed to search Google to see if something is notable, but we can't put the results of a Google search in the article. Ken Arromdee 21:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)"

"...So you can do OR on the reliability of sources, and you can talk about it on the talk page, but you can't say a source is unreliable in an article based on your research.... Dhaluza 01:40, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Having "attributablity-not-truth" embedded into policy gives the upper hand to pushers of fringe theories. Wouldn't it be better to water down the opposition between attributability and truth here with a "not merely" or "not necessarily"? that is, to identify "truth" as a necessary but not sufficient condition? semper fictilis 15:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. ... It's not always possible to know for sure what's true -- but that doesn't mean truth has nothing to do with the purpose of, and method of writing, the encyclopedia. --Coppertwig 01:34, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

ATT has been tagged as policy for 8 days, and as far as I can tell there are no outstanding objections. Perhaps it is time to implement the redirects? It is somewhat pointless that wording changes continue to be made to the old policies, but these changes will be lost when the old policies become redirects. CMummert · talk 17:45, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

User Jossi arguing with Majorly over whether to have a dispute tag:
 * 

A comment from me to SlimVirgin