User:Dave3457/sandbox

Disagreement regarding the claim of pseudoskepticism being in the lead.
Regarding the idea of taking this dispute to arbitration, it is too early for that. But in case it comes to that, here is a recap… IP 109.65.13.19 added the below to the lead with the comment.. “added summery of the controversial section in the article's intro as per WP:LEAD “ CSI has been accused of pseudoskepticism and an overly dogmatic and arrogant approach based on a priori convictions. It has been suggested that their aggressive style of skepticism could discourage scientific research into the paranormal. The reference was from the American Society for Psychical Research,(ASPR) a society that became “formally active in 1885 … with astronomer Simon Newcomb as first President.” It publishes the quarterly Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research. thus meeting the definition of a WP:RELIABLE source. IP 109.65.13.19’s claim of justification comes from this quote in WP:LEAD “(The lead) should define the topic, establish context, … and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies.” Below I argue that the lead addition meets the definition of a “prominent controversy” Not only is it the view amongst many psychical research organizations that CSI behaves in a pseudoskeptic manner, that this view has also come from two co-founders of the organization. The below is a quote from this CSI wiki article’s Controversy and criticism section. "Some criticism has also come from within the scientific community and at times from within CSI itself. Marcello Truzzi, one of CSICOP's co-founders, left the organization after only a short time, arguing that many of those involved “tend to block honest inquiry, in my opinion. Most of them are not agnostic toward claims of the paranormal; they are out to knock them. [...] When an experiment of the paranormal meets their requirements, then they move the goal posts.” Truzzi coined the term pseudoskeptic to describe critics in whom he detected such an attitude." Truzzi also wrote in “Reflections on the Reception of Unconventional Claims in Science” the following… “Originally I was invited to be a co-chairman of CSICOP by Paul Kurtz. I helped to write the bylaws and edited their journal. I found myself attacked by the Committee members and board, who considered me to be too soft on the paranormalists. My position was not to treat protoscientists as adversaries, but to look to the best of them and ask them for their best scientific evidence. I found that the Committee was much more interested in attacking the most publicly visible claimants. . . . The major interest of the Committee was not inquiry but to serve as an advocacy body, a public relations group for scientific orthodoxy. The Committee has made many mistakes. My main objection to the Committee, and the reason I chose to leave it, was that it was taking the public position that it represented the scientific community, serving as gatekeepers on maverick claims, whereas I felt they were simply unqualified to act as judge and jury when they were simply lawyers. . . . “
 * A Collection of Weblinks

Another case of internal decent is that of Dennis Rawlins who.. …is a cofounder of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (now CSI) and served on CSICOP's Executive Council from 1976 to 1979. Until 1980 he was an Associate Editor of Skeptical Inquirer. He holds degrees in physics from Harvard University (B.A.) and Boston University (M.A.). His researches have been published in Nature, Astronomical Journal, American Journal of Physics, U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings and other leading publications in the fields of astronomy, geophysics, geography and history of science.
 * sTARBABY

He wrote an article in the pro-paranormal magazine Fate called sTARBABY From this wiki article’s Controversy and criticism section a quote reads..  Rawlins, … resigned in early 1980 claiming that other CSICOP researchers had used incorrect statistics, faulty science, and outright falsification in an attempt to debunk Gauquelin’s claims. In an article for the pro-paranormal magazine Fate, he wrote: "I am still skeptical of the occult beliefs CSICOP was created to debunk. But I have changed my mind about the integrity of some of those who make a career of opposing occultism." From the original source, that quote goes directly on to read… I now believe that if a flying saucer landed in the backyard of a leading anti-UFO spokesman, he might hide the incident from the public (for the public's own good, of course). He might swiftly convince himself that the landing was a hoax, a delusion or an "unfortunate" interpretation of mundane phenomena that could be explained away with "further research."

In the sTARBABY article he goes into great detail about the experience he had when working on the Mars Effect investigation.

The Editors of Fate introduced the sTARBABY article with this… The story that follows, written by a man who is himself skeptical of the paranormal, confirms what critics of CSICOP have long suspected: that the organization is committed to perpetuating a position, not to determining the truth”

Some of Dennis Rawlins’s Quotes are below… ..it was at this point that the handling of the Gauquelin problem was transformed from mere bungling to deliberate cover-up. …. The Smoking Letter to Kurtz reveals that KZA knew they were in trouble. But as Abell learned pronto, Kurtz wasn't about to publish any letter that admitted Gauquelin had won the Control Test. … On January 17, 1979, I wrote a memorandum on the dirty dealing I'd witnessed. … The writer understood that the experimental results supported Gauquelin, that Kurtz, Abell and Zelen had screwed up the test and that CSICOP's leaders, primarily Kurtz, had tried to cover up the mess, thereby creating a "Buffalogate." This writer said he had long harbored doubts about the way CSICOP was being run. … My upcoming Skeptical Inquirer article ( 1979 winter) on the Gauquelin matter has been neatly censored here and there… … …at which private event it was unanimously decided that I should be "not renominated" (in absentia) and that (after a cosmetic interval) George Abell was to be elevated to Councilor. What this sleight of ballot switch portends for the future scientific level and integrity of the ruling body of CSICOP can be most quickly understood … … I am resigning from the Skeptical Inquirer Editorial Board ... in reaction to the Board's handling of empirical testing (when the results do not come out as expected)

In case one feels the above quotes might have been taken out of context and given that sTarbaby is a lengthy 16000 word document, some extended versions of the quotes as well as more quotes are in the collapsed section below.

The below quotes are of Dennis Rawlins’s and are from an article called sTARBABY published in Fate magazine. They support the claims of Pseudoskepticism against CSI (CSICOP) members.

The italics is Rawlins’s the Bold is mine.

'''The Editors of Fate introduced the article with this… ''' Critics such as Fate, professional parapsychologists and moderate skeptics like former CSICOP cochairman Prof. Marcello Truzzi, sociologist at Eastern Michigan University, have questioned the Committee's commitment to objective, scientific investigation of paranormal claims and have accused some CSICOP spokesmen of misrepresenting issues and evidence. But such dissenting views were little noticed by media writers eager to headline sensational -- although frequently unsupported -- debunking claims. The story that follows, written by a man who is himself skeptical of the paranormal, confirms what critics of CSICOP have long suspected: that the organization is committed to perpetuating a position, not to determining the truth

Dennis Rawlins’s Quotes are below… I USED to believe it was simply a figment of the National Enquirer's weekly imagination that the Science Establishment would cover up evidence for the occult. But that was in the era B.C. -- Before the Committee. I refer to the "Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal" (CSICOP), of which I am a cofounder and on whose ruling Executive Council (generally called the Council) I served for some years. … … '''it was at this point that the handling of the Gauquelin problem was transformed from mere bungling to deliberate cover-up. '''

Rawlins said the following regarding James Randi, who according to his wiki article “ was a founding fellow and prominent member of CSICOP. and who was active in CSI at the time… I mention this quote now because Randi is mentioned in subsequent quotes. Randi… assured me how cautious he was in the testing for his well-publicized $ 10,000 prize for proof of psychic abilities (for which he acts as policeman, judge and jury -- and thus never has supported my idea of neutral judgment of CSICOP tests. “I always have an out,” he said. To continue with Rawlins’s quotes regarding CSI’s behaviour…

The Smoking Letter answers the same key question that hung over the Watergate conspirators: When did they know? The answer is astonishing: over half a year before the cover-up Control Test report was published. … '''The Smoking Letter to Kurtz reveals that KZA knew they were in trouble. But as Abell learned pronto, Kurtz wasn't about to publish any letter that admitted Gauquelin had won the Control Test.''' … …'''I innocently thought that Kurtz could hardly refuse again to publish my dissent. '''In a covering note I made it clear that this time I would insist. The moment Kurtz read this, I was a dead CSICOP in his royal eyes. …. During the afternoon meeting, when we established a rule for expelling Councilors, Randi bellowed that it is called the "Rawlins rule." Randi meant, of course, that expulsion could come for public dissent. No other Councilor present (Gardner was not) said a word to suggest any other inference. I might add that two months later Randi foolishly boasted about how he "had to work to keep Dennis in line" in Washington, having convinced himself, apparently, that his threats had kept me quiet. …. '''On January 17, 1979, I wrote a memorandum on the dirty dealing I'd witnessed. '''I sent it and another memo ("On Fighting Pseudoscience with Pseudoscience") to most of CSICOP's Fellows. ….. The first Fellow to phone Randi about the memoranda asked him about various charges they contained, Randi admitted uncomfortably that they were true as far as he knew -- but then he quickly changed the subject. … Many of CSICOP's Fellows fell for the unity pitch or copped a none-of-my-business plea. A letter from one Fellow amused me in light of Council pretenses that it didn't understand the charges. .. '''The writer understood that the experimental results supported Gauquelin, that Kurtz, Abell and Zelen had screwed up the test and that CSICOP's leaders, primarily Kurtz, had tried to cover up the mess, thereby creating a "Buffalogate." This writer said he had long harbored doubts about the way CSICOP was being run.''' A later letter written by the same Fellow contains a prescient sentence: "I regard your charges as very serious. ... Something must be done before we read about all of this in FATE " … (Randi).. stated without qualification that Gardner Hyman and he all supported my scientific position on the sTARBABY mess. … On November 6, two days after a last request to Frazier to reconsider, I circulated a memo to all my fellow associate editors: …My upcoming Skeptical Inquirer article ( 1979 winter) on the Gauquelin matter has been neatly censored here and there, so I have asked to add a statement saying so and suggesting that readers who wish to consult the original version may do so by contacting me… … '''By another of our paranormal coincidences, only one person was "not renominated" and I was replaced by Abell. ''' ... I took Frazier up on his offer and prepared this statement for the news column.
 * '''…at which private event it was unanimously decided that I should be "not renominated" (in absentia) and that (after a cosmetic interval) George Abell was to be elevated to Councilor. What this sleight of ballot switch portends for the future scientific level and integrity of the ruling body of CSICOP can be most quickly understood …

... Obviously it was a hoked-up scenario. When I asked, a Councilor admitted that kicking me off the Council had not even been discussed until just a week before the December 1978 press conference, where Council feared I would expose sTARBABY. Indeed, only 10 minutes previously Council had attempted again to suppress my public dissent at the press conference we had just left. … [8] That Councilors Kurtz, Randi, Philip Klass, and Lee Nisbet conspired to keep dissent (read "schism") from sullying the press conference was eventually admitted from the inside in a July 6, 1979, conversation. (See also June 26 document prepared by Randi and marked "Confidential," discussed below.) ... Every one of the Councilors who say they know something about the sTARBABY knows that it was a disaster. Yet Skeptical Inquirer readers are given to believe nothing went wrong.

I will finish with Rawlins’s views regarding the scientific capabilities of CSI, concerning one of his contributions to the Mars Effect study…

It's revealing that a lone "amateur" could perform at one sitting a project that the combined CSICOP forces of UCLA, Harvard and SUNYAB didn't get anywhere with for years, despite their access to a highly accurate U.S. Naval Observatory planetary-position program.

Bottom of Dave3457’s initial contribution
In conclusion.. I have altered and put back the pseudoskepticism claim into the lead. From it I removed the word arrogant and added the opinions of two co-founders. A copy of it is below. CSI has been accused of pseudoskepticism and an overly dogmatic approach based on a priori convictions. It has been suggested that their aggressive style of skepticism could discourage scientific research into the paranormal. One co-founder has stated that they “block honest inquiry” and a second has said that they have engaged in a “deliberate cover-up”

Below are the arguments of those who objected to the inclusion of the Pseudoskepticism comment. At this point their position is only known by way of their comments when reverting the edit. Below were their comments in the back and forth edit war.

WP:UNDUE to put that in the intro. Undue weight, questionable fringe source. Both WP:UNDUE and not a WP:RELIABLE source. seems you need to establish the WP:RS status of that ref first. (TW) Unreliable self-serving source. No. It's not reliable. If you disagree, take it to WP:RSN.

At this point in the history I put forth my lead addition with the comment… …Please refer to my lengthy defense of this Edit on the talk page called...”Disagreement regarding the claim of pseudoskepticism being in the lead”

Regarding the view that the sources are not WP:RELIABLE SOURCES .. According to WP:RELIABLE SOURCES, the below is the definition of a reliable source. Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. These qualifications should be demonstrable to other people. The first source is The American Society for Psychical Research which maintains offices and a library and publishes the quarterly Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, and therefore has a “reliable publication process”. The sources of Marcello Truzzi and Dennis Rawlins are “authoritative in relation to the subject” since they were co-founders of the organization.

Regarding the view that it is not suitable for the lead. The relevant quote from MOS:LEAD is… The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies. I have proven beyond doubt that the accusations of pseudoskepticism among CSI members meets the definition of a “prominent controversy” CSI’s behavior during the Mars Effect study not only resulted in a co-founder resigning but also in him writing a scathing report in a prominent pro-paranormal magazine accusing them of a “cover-up”.

Regarding the WP:UNDUE claim, below is the relevant quote from the MOS page. Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints…in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views. The section WP:UNDUE does not mention the lead. That being said it can not be argued that the lead addition does not “represent a significant viewpoint” It is a viewpoint that is held by many if not most pro-paranormal organizations. On top of that, it is a viewpoint that is held by at least two co-founders of the organization. Secondly, CSI’s stated purpose, as described in the lead, is to "encourage the critical investigation of paranormal and fringe-science claims from a responsible, scientific point of view and disseminate factual information about the results of such inquiries to the scientific community and the public." If that stated purpose is contradicted by two former co-founders, then again, theirs is a “significant viewpoint”, and clearly deservers mention in the lead.

If anyone chooses to revert my edit please explain your grounds in detail and where you think my views above are flawed or incomplete. Dave3457 (talk) 03:53, 15 November 2012 (UTC)