User:Daycd/school play area

Discussion on schools
From wiki schools

Problems with large lists on

 * Well, for better or worse, someone made a "missing encyclopedia articles" list of schools from a high school website. While I think this is a use of WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/High schools, that list could be adapted, and would be a good idea in any case, even if no compromise can be found. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 17:33, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Given that's a red-link, I'm not quite sure what you're refering to (I think I'm misreading what you said, sorry, can you reword). --rob 18:13, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I fixed the link. I'm suggesting that that could be turned into a list of unquestionably notable schools, so that they can have (uncontroversial) articles (rather than the indiscriminate list of schools it is now). - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 21:20, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * There is a problem witht that list of 22,000 schools. It is not comprehensive, what is the source? (edit: I originally thought is was not comprehensive since Memorial high was not grouped with the other madison schools)  For example, i looked at the list of schools in Madison (my area). Listed on the sub page WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/High schools/US/Wisconsin are the following five high schools:
 * East High School &mdash; Madison, Wisconsin
 * Edgewood High School &mdash; Madison, Wisconsin
 * Lafollette High School &mdash; Madison, Wisconsin
 * West High School &mdash; Madison, Wisconsin
 * Madison Memorial &mdash; Madison, Wisconsin
 * It's a start but after looking through this list i realise that the red/blue links can cause confusion with regard to disambiguation. The east and west high schools are pointing to the the wrong school. Memorial is a red link but, in fact, that is the one school for which wikipedia does have a page (James Madison Memorial High School). David D. (Talk) 21:56, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I created this list of schools a while ago as an attempt to catalog all the school in Hampshire, England. I have only worked on area1' to date. I organised the schools into a hierarchy from high schools down for each town. On each of the town pages I wrote a little blurb on education that refers to this list. The idea is that those who want to write school articles will probably go to the town page first.  This will lead them to the list and they can find the red link they are interested in creating. Every red link is associated with a link to the school details as presented by the Hampshire county council.  In this instance the list provides several roles.
 * It identifies which school articles are required,
 * It identifies a www source for basic school info as well as proving verifiability for that particular red link,
 * Even without the school article it allows users to get some basic information about the school,
 * Using a basic info box the basic information can be included in such lists (see also, Elgin Area School District U46 although this page has problems with breaks between infoboxes, anyone know how to create breaks between the infoboxes?) prior to expansion by "organic growth".
 * Such a format might be a compromise for deletionists who are arguing to merge schools,
 * Such a format is a good place for inclusionists to find schools they wish to expand into full articles from the basic list template. David D. (Talk) 19:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Still uncomfortable calling anyone who doesn't want an individual article for every school a deletionist. You're still going to run into problems when people are arguing about whether a school should or shouldn't be broken out of that sort of list, but it's a start for a proposal. Yikes. I...don't think that Elgin Area School District U46 is a good format for school district lists, in any case. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 21:20, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with the 'deletionist' term but that is the terminology that is being thrown around whether we like it or not. Don't let the Elgin area format stop you thinking about the proposal. that page was an experiment, at this stage it is the concept that is important NOT the format. David D. (Talk) 21:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Let's avoid unnecessarily polarizing terms whever possible, in any case. I think you'll find both self-described "inclusionists" and "deletionists" who feel merging school stubs is a good idea. What kind of thing would go in those lists, and at what point would you break schools out? What would you do when someone makes a microstub that isn't already covered by a list? - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 21:49, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * A man in Black wrote "[people from both spectrums of the debate] feel merging school stubs is a good idea" and I agree which is why i think it might be a good starting point. With regard to when do we break them out i would assume when someone feels interested in expanding the page. One possible solution is to have every school page already identified as a redirect ready for the break out. An advantage of doing this is that the name and disambiguation issues can be sorted out sooner than later, see my comments above with regard to Madison Wisconsin schools. David D. (Talk) 22:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

When and what to merge

 * I think there is a good solution, at least regarding American public school stubs. Those that, at present, do not present enough substantial information that is specific to the school should be merged and redirected into an article on that school's parent district.  This should be an editorial decision made like those for any other subject matter on Wikipedia.
 * If there is enough independent information about a school to merit an independent article, then it should have one and be linked to from the school district article. Many individual schools have documented independent histories and characters that can be detailed in a manner that doesn't simply state what is true of the district as a whole (Torrance High School is an excellent example). Perhaps this is even arguably true of all individual schools. Accordingly, there should be no per se bias against individual schools having their own articles.
 * But what still remains is the necessity to make an independent editorial judgment on each particular school article (not a judgment as to the notability of the school) as to whether that article has enough independent content at present to justify separate existence. For example, Sheridan High School does not, because nothing is said of it that isn't true of its parent district; the high school obviously doesn't serve any towns that the district does not. If there is not such information available at the present time, then merging insubstantial articles about individual schools into articles about their districts is the best solution, because it preserves the content in a form and structure that is undeniably useful (see Newark City School District, Licking County, Ohio for an example).  And when anyone finally does the research necessary so that the school profile can stand on its own, then the school topic can always be merged back out.
 * No one on either side of the deletion debate is going to deny that school districts are notable. Anyone who is a tax payer, property owner, or parent of a school-age child is highly interested in school districts, or should be at least, because which district you reside in will dictate which schools your child attends, how much you pay in property taxes, and how much your house is worth. School districts not only administer the schools within them, by allocating budgets at each school, hiring and firing personnel, and locally enacting the curriculum directives of the state, but they also frequently have the power to raise taxes and use eminent domain. They are governmental bodies, and information about how they operate is central to local democracy.
 * Because public schools are the functioning units of the school district, district articles are the appropriate place to satisfy the goal of documenting each individual school until such time as there is sufficient independent and encyclopedic information about a particular school to merit a separate article. Postdlf 06:24, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree with this idea, whenever practical.
 * I have to wonder, though; what do you do with private school or non-American stubs? - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 06:29, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Private schools could go into town articles. If nothing else the bot town articles can be used as holders for such stubs until they get going. Other countries don't have school districts or equivalent? David D. (Talk) 06:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That would be one possiblity, though it might be better to merge them to a List of private schools in X, whether we want to do that at the city, county, country, canton, or commune level. I wonder if there are superstructures for certain private schools that may also provide suitable merge targets.  But even if not, we still have a solution to the American public school stubs and should implement it without waiting to also come up with a solution for American private school stubs (or non-American schools).  Postdlf 06:38, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
 * The list sounds good. i did something similar to for the Hampsire schools at List_of_schools_in_the_United_Kingdom.  In that case i just listed independent schools seperately. David D. (Talk) 06:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Perspective of David D.
I was interested to read the recent comments by Hypocrite at Afd for Grove School


 * I would be happy to help. I assume the intention is to take a bunch of stubs from a geographic district, create an article "High Schools in x,x,x" and then replace the individual school articles with redirects - for example, where I live now: "High Schools in Brooklyn, New York, USA?" Can I suggest that notable schools with longer articles be shortened and included in stub-format in the list, with a link from their name to their main article? Suggest a starting location! Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

A while ago I started an experiment with essentially the redirect approach, as Hypocrite describes above. The first page I tried was based on a, then, recent Vfd for Charlotte HS. You can see my effort at Charlotte Public Schools. I was trying to create a template approach that could be used to see the hierarchy of the schools as well hold all the information about the school.

While the school district templates, such as the template:infobox high school seen above, do not reveal all the possible information it is relatively easy for editors to transfer the information from the school district to a new article, when someone is interested in expanding the schools page from a redirect. With exactly the same information a different template, such as the 'infobox school' template (template:infobox school) seen to the right, can display more of the school information. The example shown is for Bartlett High School. The only difference for these two templates is removing the word high from the school district style template.

Early in this debate I was labeled as a deletionist by Nicodemus75 but I do not count myself as one. I have always tried to be a constructive voice in this debate. I know the solution I propose above is not perfect but I saw them as an experimental compromise. The most important thing for these school articles is that they are not hanging in cyber space with no context. I think this was summed up well by Aaron Brenneman in the recent Afd for Grove School:
 * "That's my point, Kappa. Why spend so much time and energy defending these little bits of low-utility information instead of gathering them together into some coherent form?"

I think if Nicodemus75 took a good look at this proposal it would be apparent that zero schools would be deleted. However, the low quality school articles would be more organised and consequently more useful. Also it would be more apparent which schools are missing from the project. With the redirect approach every school name and page is defined early in the project, however, the pages are only expanded when there is enough information. I'd be interested to hear comments. David D. (Talk) 18:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Cookie cutter response to vandalism
From village pump

I have seen quite a few editors leave wikipedia because of the soft approach to vandalism. Why do serial and blatant vandals get such soft warnings such as the one below:

Thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.

The above template is currently the standard warning for examples of vandalism such as Amy is extremely ugly !!!!! and worse. This is obviously not a test, or a user experimenting with wikipedia. These are examples of malicious editing and I think it is silly to suggest such a user experiment in the sandbox. One strike and you're out should be standard policy for this type of vandalism not the five or so warning that seem to be the current norm. David D. (Talk) 16:50, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * You have to balance that with not wanting to bite newcomers. I would say we need a few welcome/stop-your-vandalism templates with several degrees of nastiness based on the severity of the vandalism. there would be "thanks for your test" and "you should lay off the stuped edits." and "warning stop it immediately you will be blocked." MPS 17:20, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * There's the concern that using an overly-nasty first warning message will convert someone who would have been a one-off vandal to a repeat offender. There are a lot of people out there who just can't believe that we will let anyone edit Wikipedia, and they can leave incredibly stupid and childish first messages just because they don't believe that it will work.  We actually have quite a few editors who started off with test edits that were rather nasty, but have since reformed to become productive contributors.
 * Oftentimes the vandalism stops as soon as a message–any message–is left on User Talk. It conveys the idea that yes, someone is watching the store.  The polite first warning also embarrasses some new editors into behaving themselves.
 * When I warn an editor, I usually keep their contributions log open in a browser tab and refresh it periodically for a while to check that they have straightened up. If not, I will escalate to the test2/test2a, test3, and/or final warning test4 templates.  (I don't tend to give four warnings, but I will pick and choose which templates are appropriate.  Except in the most egregious cases I will give a test4 warning before I block.)TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:17, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * When vandalism is also an attack there is attack. But perhaps we should ahve a warning sereis parallel to test through test3 wherne is is obviously i8ntentional, but not yet serious enough to threaten an instant block? DES (talk) 22:49, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * This sounds like a reasonable suggestion. I think  TenOfAllTrades also makes a lot of good points, especially the one about embarrassing the vandal, I had not thought of it that way. Given these points I think a different 'polite' set of test series for malicious edits would be more sensible since the ones that are currently used do not seem to address the vandalism.  In fact the current test templates may even give the impression that it is an automated response rather than being a response from a specific admin since they do not really address the maliciousness of the vandalism involved. Possibly a first response to a malicious edit could be along the lines of:

Please do not add gossip to wikipedia. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia. Thanks.


 * For me at least, this type of message recognises that the editor is being destructive. It is still friendly but slightly more blunt. David D. (Talk) 23:08, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

To be honest test mostly says that we saw that. Most vandels stop as soon as they relise they have been spoted.Geni 23:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I have just created vw and vw-n with slightly firmer wording than test and test-n, but not quite as strong as test2. It would be considered a first-level warning, but for stuff that looks more like intentional vandalism than "tests". The higher-level warnings already refer to vandalism and I didn't think more strongly worded versions were needed. See what you think of these. DES (talk) 21:32, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Those look better. I agree the higher tests are fine. I'll try out the new ones next time I revert intentional vandalism.  Thanks David D. (Talk) 18:03, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I too once found the 'test' template odd for vandals. Then, I realized the beauty.  Any vandal will either be expecting no message, or a stern rebuke.  'Test' sends the the signal that we can't even imagine your intentions weren't noble.  People tend to live up to the expectations you set. If they don't, then a sterner message wasn't going to help anyways ... I don't the threat of a 24 hour block sounds like much of a threat to a vandal. Derex @ 06:24, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Original merging and context from Aaron_Brenneman's |talk page
I was interested to the recent comments by Hypocrite at Afd for Grove School


 * I would be happy to help. I assume the intention is to take a bunch of stubs from a geographic district, create an article "High Schools in x,x,x" and then replace the individual school articles with redirects - for example, where I live now: "High Schools in Brooklyn, New York, USA?" Can I suggest that notable schools with longer articles be shortened and included in stub-format in the list, with a link from their name to their main article? Suggest a starting location! Hipocrite - «Talk» 13:10, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

My first experience with the school debate was with the Afd for Benjamin Cory Elementary School. You may remember that this discussion actually extended into the talk page. At about that time I started to experiment with essentially the redirect approach, as Hypocrite describes above. The first page I tried was based on a, then, recent Vfd for Charlotte HS. You can see my effort at Charlotte Public Schools. I was trying to create a template approach that could be used to see the hierarchy of the schools as well as make it relatively easy for people transfer the information to a new and better article if someone saw fit to expand one of the schools.

After the Afd for Bartlett High School I again tried this approach at the Elgin Area School District U46.

After the Afd for Chester_County_High_School I created the following Chester County School District article to allow the school article to have some real context.

And finally I experimented with a very long list of schools in hampshire after the Afd Court Moor School although I did not really complete the school district list to my satisfaction in that case.

Early on I was labeled as a deletionist by Silensor and Nicodemus75 but I do not count myself as one. I have always tried to be a constructive voice in this debate. I know these pages are not perfect but i saw them as an experimental compromise. The most important thing for these school articles is that they are not hanging in cyber space with no context. I think this was summed up well by yourself at the recent Afd for Grove School:
 * "That's my point, Kappa. Why spend so much time and energy defending these little bits of low-utility information instead of gathering them together into some coherent form?"

I'd be interested to hear comments. David D. (Talk) 07:40, 3 November 2005 (UTC)