User:Deepak D'Souza/MaharashtraExpress Debate

The following is a copy of the user talk page between me and User:Maharashtraexpress which he has deleted from his talk page --Deepak D&#39;Souza 05:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Konkani Language Article
The entire article is not about the Konkani v/s Marathi debate. the 13 section is. Please search for the line "Konkani has had to painfully negotiate a controversy about the nature of its relationship with Marathi "

I agree that the article itself does not mention the SMM. I had written the article in my own words. But perhaps, you are aware the Goa was one of the areas covered by the Samyukta Maharashtra movement. In case you doubt it please check the map in http://www.samyuktamaharashtra.org/samyuktamaharashtra.html

Agreed that the SMM itself did not state that Konkani was a dialect of Marathi. However, the status of Konkani as an independent language or as a dialect of Marathi became central to the issue of whether Goa should be included in Maharashtra or not. Let me cite the select lines that cite the point, all from the same section:

"....

Had the dispute between Konkani and Marathi been merely grammatical it should have been settled in the court of linguistics, the science of language. ... But the language vs. dialect controversy was far more political an issue than linguistic or grammatical ..... If Konkani was seen as a dialect of Marathi it would imply that the Konkani speaking Goans ideally belonged to the Marathi speaking Maharashtrians. ...If on the other hand, Konkani was perceived as an independent language, Goa had a chance to forge its own independent Konkani identity within the Indian Union. ..."

I hope that satisfies you, that the point is valid. I know that as a Maharashtrian and a Marathi, you may not like the point. But it is a fact.

Last of all I find your point "inclusion of Konkani in schedule is determined by politicians rather than historians.. " rather amusing. What you wish to say that the desire for Konkanis to seek official recognition for their language was politically motivated(Never mind that Konkanis have very little numbers or political power). But that the constant banter by some Marathis that Konkani is a dialect of Marathi is not motivated by any political considerations !!! Its like saying "my POV is better than yours"!

Dont you realise that your own statement can be reversed to say the same thing about Marathis. --Deepak D&#39;Souza 06:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

First stop calling me Sir. No titles, we are all equal.


 * According to the 1991 Census, of the 17,60,607 Konkani speakers in India 6,02,626 are in Goa, 7,06,397 in Karnataka, 3,12,618 in Maharashtra and 64,008 in Kerala. .Sizeable they may be, but not compared to Konkanis in Goa and Karnataka. Thes numbers do not include those emigrated outside India (roughly equal to the resident polpulation)

But it belies a hidden fact. A majority of the 3 lakh Konkanis in Maharashtra are migrants from Goa and Karnataka( i happen to be from the latter). And can you say for sure that the rest (who include Malwanis and Konkani muslims)do really consider themselves to be Marathis? Can you give me the basis for this or have you decided to become a self-appointed spokesman for Maharashtra's Konkanis? Also let me remind you that the Census Board of India counts Malwani as a dialect of Konkani.

I never said that the SMM made a direct attack on Konkani. Please re-read the line I had put(which has now been removed)as well as MAdhavi Sardesais article. SMM wasn't an organisation,with different people, but a movement, and it still exists, if not active. However the article clearly states that the Konkani Marathi dispute had a direct bearing on the decision of Goa's merger(which was one of SMMs demands). Had Konkanis not insisted on the difference, there probably would have been no plebicite in Goa, just a direct merger.

The following is an aside from the discussion. I know Acharya Atre was known for his acid tongue, but this should let you know his opposition to a plebicite sugested by another SMM leader. I doubt the SMM was really happy about holding a plebicite.

Sa. Kaa. Patil used to be called the uncrowned king of Mumbai in his heyday. (Believe he has been the mayor for most number of years.) The Samyukta Maharashtra movement wanted Goa too as part of the state. Patil demanded a "plebiscite" in Goa on this issue. And thus thundered Atre then:

Sadobaa Kanhobaa Patil haa kanhobaachaach aahe ka, yaavar matadaan ghyaa. ek veL sadobaa kaanhobaachaa nasel, paN Goa mahaaraaShtraachach aahe! (Let there be a poll on whether S. K. Patil is his father's son. He may not be- but Goa absolutely belongs to Maharashtra.)

With regard to your last line I am not sure if Dyaneshwari was written in Konkani or not, and will suspend my opinion on it until i see the original manuscript. Anyway it has little bearing on the debate. But again you have drawn an amazingly amusing conclusion. Just because you do not agree with one point with one Konkani historian, you reject Konkani history alotgether!!!!! If I use your logic, just because I disagree with Marathis that Konkani is a dialect of Marathi I will be forced to believe that Marathi has no history!!! Ha Ha HA. Just think about it!

Let me ask you one thing. You reverted my edit on the Marathi Page that remove the reference to 1911 Brittanica Encyclopedia. I wont bother to do it again but I feel compelled to point the silliness of that reference. A 1911(almost 100 year old) well renowned encyclopedia that it is, do you think the Brits would really care about a miniscule linguistic community? The Sahitya Akademi has recognized Konkani as an independent language in 1975(a decioion made by a neutral commitee). In 1992 it was added to the 8th schedule as a National Language. Your refernece to 1911Enc Brit is more valuable than the decision of a democratically elected government of 100 cr people!!!! Amazing weithtage!

Anyway. I do not wish to continue this debate. I know I will not be able to convince you or any other Marathi. And it will be a tiresome task, given that there are roughly 10 crore Marathis as against 50 lakh Konkanis!

And to think you accused the Govt of accused the govt of being biased in favour of Konkanis when they made a decision on adding Konkani to the 8th Schedule!!Wow! 1 Konkani is politicaly more important than 20 Marathis!!!! Amazing, just amazing!

Last of all, Konkanis never had any doubts about where they belong. A few may have doubts, but the majority does not. It doest matter to us what 10 crore Marathis think about us. We have always been an independent language and community. You may have numbers but you cannot control our minds.

Finally!!! MaharashtraExpress drops all pretenses of civility and discussion and reveals his true colours!

I am a zealot because I love my mothertongue!!!! but you are not, even though you insist on trampling on the pride of Konkanis??? Despite the fact that you may not even know Konkani?

"Konkanis inclusion in the 8th Schedule was politically motivated by ONE Congrssman"(one congressman is worth more than 10 crore Marathis?????), but Marathis insiting that Konkani is a dialect of Marathsi is not politically motivated???????

"Govt decisions cannot be compared with scholarly opinions." Sahitya Akademi is not scholarly??? I guess only those scholars who agree with you are scholarly, right??? The rest are idiots?? Your knowledge is greater than all scholars who disagree with you?

"Again stop assuming the patent rights of Konkani". I dont, i try to include the opinon of all Konkanis when I write any stuff. But then who gave YOU the patent rights over Konkani? Who gave you the right to trample over the self respect of all Konkanis? --Deepak D&#39;Souza 04:38, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Reg: Your point that "we lost the plebicite with marginal difference.". The margin is 34,021 votes. Not a marginal differnece in a small statelike Goa http://www.goanews.com/opinion.htm --Deepak D&#39;Souza 09:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Finally??
Hello MaharashtraExpress, It is not Wikipedias policy to revert discussion pages, but Ill let it be. I assume you want to make peace, and so do I.

However let me say something about what you called "mean comments about SMM" Anyway, i have ranted too much. Goodnight. Or rather as we Konkanis would say: देव बोरि रात दिउं! --Deepak D&#39;Souza 14:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Let me reiterate that I never said that "SMM had called Konkani a dialect of Marathi". I admit that the language I used was strong, but then you can't please everyone evertime! Anyway I have rewriten the entire article. Take a look if you wish.
 * The Konkani Marathi dispute was central to the status of Goa. The Konkani as a dialect theory itsef was not new. It must be nearly 200 years old. But it took a new vigour between 1961-1967. And it was a major point in the demand to merge Goa into Maharashtra.
 * Hero worship is a very common thing. Nobody likes to hear comments against his hero, leader, community etc . But one man's hero is another mans villain.
 * If you felt so hurt by by what you say "mean comments about SMM", look at thing from my side. Have you ever thought: how much do I get pissed off when some Marathi still insists that Konkani is a dialect of Marathi!
 * I still fear to think what would have happened if the Konkanis had lost the 1967 vote, or the Sahitya Akademi committee had not ruled in Konkanis favour.
 * You weren't the first, you won't be the last. Before you it was User:MahaWiki who came and went about changing the Konkani Language page. Well you were at least a lot more civil than him! I thank you for that. Tommorrow, some other Marathi Manus will come and decide that the Konkani Langage article doesn't meet his world-view? For me it will be a never ending story.
 * Anyway, the worst problem for Konkani is not that some Marathis deny its independence. Rather it is many of her own children who refuse to acknowledge her,who feel ashamed to speak in public in their own mothertongue for fear that it makes them look "ghati". You are the least of our problems my dear friend!

Konkani Language Revision as of 05:33, 7 March 2007
The line is misleading. The article clearly states that the resoution was made at Congress legistlature party, not in the Goa Assembly. The matter has yet to be placed in the state assembly, and it will have to go through a vote. It is not yet become law. The line implies that the decision has already been taken and is awaiting enactment.

I request you to revert it or rewrite in a more clearly. --Deepak D&#39;Souza 09:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Re: Your message
Hello Maharashtraexpress, Thanks for your message. I understand your sentiments, but you must understand that Wikipedia is concerned with verifiability, not truth (WP:A and WP:A/FAQ). Furthermore, it is not a battleground to decide who's superior and who's not. All editors must strive to stick to the sources and to convey the sources' essence in a neutral tone.

Coming to your second point, Marathi is not yet the official language of Goa. There's a difference between "official state language" and "used for official purposes". I hope you understand. Also, I would like you to see my reply to Deepak on the Konkani language talk page if you have more concerns.

Thanks, Max - You were saying? 17:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

PS: Please call me Max, no need for the "sir" stuff :-)

POV reg Konkani on Marathi Page
I have taken into account yours and MAximusDecimus opinions on the Konkani Language page. At the same time you have been putting POVs regarding Konkani on the Marathi Page.

You have reverted counterarguments placed by DrShenoy in the same section. Dont you think your action goes against the NPOV policy?

I have only removed one line. The rest of the content is unaffected and offers both opposing views.

I have already stated my counter-points of you "appeasement" and "politicaly motivated" POVS both in personal discussion and on the Marathi Language talk page. --Deepak D&#39;Souza 07:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you, Please place your arguments on the Marathi language page(i have added more points ther). I could have reverted your change again, but it may have ended up putting a lock on the article, which isnt what I want.


 * Wait for some other to place their points to. I suggest that the issue be placed for arbitration

--Deepak D&#39;Souza 07:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

the link to MGA site
I have read it and I am not surprised that you like it so much.

1) It suggests that the Portuguese went about creating an opinion among Goans that Goa is entirely different and its culture is different. Fact is the Portuguese would hardly be bothered about the culture of locals. Like any other colonialist they held all "Natives" in contempt.

2) it reffers to Goan Konkanis as पोर्तुगीजधार्जिणी. I find this absolutely insulting and offensive, not just to Goans but to all Konkanis.

3) The article suggests that the real motivation for the Goan Konkanis to not merge their state into Maharashtra was because they were so enamoured by the Portuguese. That the reason they insisted that Konkani was an independent language was because they wanted to keep their "Portuguese" idnetity alive and not their Konkani identity. Absurd!

4) The article suggests that it was merely because the Congress was in power that the Konkani Language was included in the eight schedule!(which is YOUR PROOF that it was a political conspiracy) . So my dear friend, what was the Congress in power in Maharashtra doing at the same time?

5) The article also suggests that the "True Goan" never doubted the status of Konkani as a dialect of Marathi. Meaning only Marathi Goans were "true Goans" and everyone else was not?? So what is the Marathi Gomantak Academy's job? to promote Marathi or to issue certificates to "true Goans"?

6) The article states that Marathi congressmen opposed the move to make Konkani the official language in 1981.And yet it accuses the Congress of being partial? Isn't the article contradicting itself? --Deepak D&#39;Souza 09:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

In reply
You are in no mood to quarrel with me ? Then why do you?

How did you assume that I don't know Marathi. I think I told you once that I have been born in Mumbai.I have studied Marathi in School and understand it quite well.In fact I used to score more than at least half the Marathis in my class. Now laugh!
 * Since marathi and konkani are not related how come u understood the marathi language? hahahaha!


 * Those who speak nonsense and want to create divide amongst Marathi people/language are deserved to known as that. Your point is that someone who does not agree with your world-view should be called offensive names?


 * U have many misconceptions. Who are you to certify my knowledge or misconceptions as you call it? Can I not similarly call your opinion as misconception,merely because you disagree with me?


 * True Goans are those who acknowledge the cultural and historical and linguistic facts. MGA knows its job very well. How, by insulting Konkanis? Is that your idea of a job done well?


 * Listen i am in no mood to quarrel with u. Good! Stop! Nobody forced you to.

And finally Goans arent the only speakers of Konkani(which is where your thinking ends) The Majority of Konkani speakers are from Canara. --Deepak D&#39;Souza 12:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
 * but dont think Konkani is wholly owned subsidery of Goa/Goans It is not . let me repeat what I have told you before: We don't own Konkani, We belong to it. A mother cannot belong to her children. Her children belong to her.

More commentis in reply
Marathi is mother of Konkani,so obviously all Maharashtrians respect and love Konkani Who decided that Marathi is the mother of Konkani? That is only what you Marathis say, that too not all only a few bigoted ones like you. Konkanis do not consider Marathi to be the "mother of Konkani". It never was, never is and never shall be.

All Maharashtrians love Konkani???? Going by your attitude it doesn't seem so.


 * Most Maharashtrians CANT UNDERSTAND Konkani. Forget that most Maharastrians havent even heard Konkani. How can you grandly claim such baseless point?


 * If Maharashtrians really love Konkani how come they stedfastly refuse to accept Konkani as an independent language.
 * If Maharashtrians really love Konkani, how come there isn't a single Konkani school in Maharashtra. Why doesnt the maharashtra government set up a Konkani Sahitya Academi. Goa has started a Marathi Academi but I doubt Maharashtra govt ever will start a Konkani Academy .Even Karnataka , where linguistic jingoism is at a peak, has started and supports a Konakni Academy.
 * Stop making such baseless statements.Everything you state is your own imaginative unsubtantiable words. None of it is a verifyable fact.
 * Konkani is yours??? Since when did you own it? You wont accept Konkani as an independent language and still say that you love it?You may not know a word of Konkani but grandly state that "Konkani is ours too".
 * I have quite a few Malwani friends, and no one among them has ever said anything that agrees with what you say.

''The so-called mother of urs gets her name from Maharashtrian region! '' Konkan is a much wider region that starts from the Gulf of Khambat and ends at Kerala. Just because Maharashtra has an administrative division named Konkan does not mean that the entire west coast belongs to Maharashtra. The Marathi peoples have been fortunate that they have not faced any major attrition due to wars and famines. Konkanis had to face major persecutions for the past 1000 years, at the hands of the Bahamani sultans, Portuguese and Tippu Sultan. He had killed nearly 60,000 Konkani Christians 200 years ago. that is why our numbers are less.
 * If you are aware of history the Marathas did not have control over Konkan until Shivaji.


 * The way you say so-called mother of yours reveals how much respect and love you have for Konkani. All that love and respect you have talked about has been nothing but nice talk.It didn't fool me a bit. As I said you have shown your true colours and are slowly even throwing away the mask of "love" and "respect" that you had put on. Stop trying to pretend. You arent doing a good job at it --Deepak D&#39;Souza 14:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

STOP bothering meWhy dont you practice what you preach? You have been sending me silly and unverifiable posts full of grandiose declarations. And I hope you realise, I am not interested in bothering someone who has no knowledge about Konkani. You have been asking for it. If you don't line someone replying to your posts, stop sending them. It's that simple. --Deepak D&#39;Souza 14:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)