User:DieWeisseRose/scratchpad

Author 	Tanay, Emanuel. Title 	Holocaust history distortions : a survivor's perspective [videorecording] Publication info. Ann Arbor, MI : Ann Arbor District Library, 2003.

Author 	Tanay, Emanuel. Title 	Passport to life : autobiographical reflections on the Holocaust / Emanuel Tanay, M.D. Publication info. Ann Arobr, MI : Forensic Press, c2004.

New Section for Abramoff Article (work-in-progress)
Abramoff—who has been described by his spokesman Andrew Blum as, "an especially strong supporter of Israel" and by another associate as "a super-Zionist"—diverted "money meant for inner-city kids" to Jewish settlers illegally occupying the Palestinian West Bank in order to help them "fight the Palestinian intifada." Tribal donors were outraged by Abramoff's diversion of funds to Israeli settlers. " 'This is almost like outer-limits bizarre,' says Henry Buffalo, a lawyer for the Saginaw Chippewa Indians who contributed $25,000 to the Capital Athletic Foundation at Abramoff's urging. 'The tribe would never have given money for this.' "

Investigators believe that more than $140,000 of Capital Athletic Foundation funds were actually used for "purchases of camouflage suits, sniper scopes, night-vision binoculars, a thermal imager and other material described in foundation records as 'security' equipment." US Senate Indian Affairs Committee hearings revealed that the Capital Athletic Foundation "paid a monthly stipend and Jeep payments to a high-school friend of Abramoff" to conduct sniper workshops for Israeli Defense Force members in Israel's [sic] West Bank."

However, as Professor Juan Cole asserts, in critiquing The Hill report on this subject, "the Israeli army does not need shooting lessons from [Ben-Zvi]. The sniper lessons were for the colonists, practice for shooting Palestinians." The "high-school friend" is, apparently, "Abramoff's connection" to the Jewish West Bank settlement of Beitar Illit, "Schmuel Ben-Zvi, an American emigre who, the lobbyist told associates, was an old friend he knew from Los Angeles;" Ben-Zvi has denied knowing Abramoff.

Israel-Palestine
I don't think the section should be called "Israel-Palestine," just "Israel," as it has not called Palestine anymore, and has not been for years. This is a fact, regardless of your views on a Palestinian State...this state has not been formed, therefore, in this article, it should be referred to as Israel.--152.163.100.7 02:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The West Bank is not part of Israel, it has never been annexed and the general internationally accepted usage is "West Bank" and not "Judea and Samaria," which is definitely POV. "Palestine" is also the generally accepted term for, at least, those portions of mandatory Palestine not annexed by Israel. Also, while the illegality of Israel's military occupation of the West Bank may be disreputable, the illegality of the Jewish settlements there is not disputable. It is well-settled in international law that an occupying power cannot settle its nationals in occupied territory. Changes reverted.--64.18.236.129 00:26, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Kwh, it is not POV to state that Abramoff diverted funds to "Jewish settlers illegally occupying the Palestinian West Bank." Only the Israeli government and its apologists dispute the legality of these settlements; the international consensus is that they are illegal. It is informative that Abramoff diverted the money--probably, illegally-- for another illegal purpose supporting illegal settlements. Furthermore, it is not POV to point out, as Juan Cole does, that The Hill misreported the purpose of the sniper workshops. The IDF does not need private funding for sniper workshops. Finally, the quoted source, Newsweek, uses the spelling "Schmuel Ben-Zivi" not "Scuahmua Benwvi"--64.18.236.217 03:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Whoever you are - you falsified your edit summary by calling it "Revert vandalism", you linked Belligerent military occupation, and you are only at this point identified as several random IP addresses with edits only on this article. You added the POV information initially, and several other people have edited out your POV at various times, which you consistently consider 'vandalism' and 'POV'. This article is not your personal soapbox on the meaning of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I'll let someone else remove your latest reversion, and I won't say another word to you because I have no regard for editors who feel the need to do nothing but pick fights on every damnable Wikipedia article that mentions Israel or Palestine. It's not that I have a certain opinion about the conflict, I just don't like you. -Kwh 04:57, 9 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Kwh, whoever you are, I didn't falsify my edit summary. I consider the extent and manner of the edit in question to be vandalism of a sort although I'll admit that was probably not the best choice of words. I only used it once, though, and I regret it--your point is taken.


 * Just what is wrong with linking Belligerent military occupation? The Israeli occupation of the West Bank is exactly that and I think that the fact Abramoff is helping equip Jewish paramilitaries in that occupied area is informative. Maybe that info can and should come out but let's hear a cogent argument to that effect, first. Also, so what if my identity is unknown? What difference does that make?


 * FYI - According to the Israeli Government, because of its population size, Betar Illit has the status of a city. Though I'm not sure what that is as of now, they do have 35,000 children of elementary school age. It is Ultra orthodox, of the Lakewood, flatbush style. Half of its boundries are in the pre six day war Israel and the other half is beyond what is known as the "green" line. Two small arab villages neighbor Betar Illit. With a population of around a hundred familes each and make their living by working in Betar and for the cities municipality. On a visit last year, I spoke with the Arab residents of these two villiges and everyone I spoke with told me that they were glad that they were isolated from the Palestinian authority who they veiwed as cruel and were happy with their orthodox Jewish neighbors,who they viewed as "kind", got along well with them and were happy to have employment in the city of Betar. I spoke with many residents of Betar who voiced the same sentiments. - Rosco &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.0.170.46 (talk &bull; contribs).


 * In any event, I appreciate your willingness to engage in dialogue and your forbearance on revertings my reverts. You're right, this article is not my personal soapbox on the meaning of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and I don't think I've used it that way. I'm actually open to further edits to the section in question but I resent people just coming in and imposing their POV with nary a comment.--64.18.236.189 06:39, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Some editors obviously don't like Juan Cole's remarks since they've deleted them several times. However, I think it is an important and accurate corrective to the information from The Hill. It's also been properly included in the article: "When a fact is not common knowledge, or when the information being related is a subjective assessment, like the result of a particular poll, the information should be attributed and cited." --64.18.236.189 06:55, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

I will keep reverting unjustified edits to this section. If you have a problem with the language in the section then let's hash it out here but please stop the mindless, unexplained reverts. Also, can someone please explain to me why the spelling of Schmuel Ben-Zvi's name keeps getting changed even though it comes froma direct quote from Newsweek?--64.18.236.109 01:54, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Surprise, surprise, another unexplained, unjustified revert by. How do you know that Schmuel Ben-Zvi is an "IDF officer" and why do you keep changing the spelling of his name? A complaint about your behavior and numerous reverts/edits to this article has been submitted to the Mediation Cabal. We'll see how that works out.--DieWeibeRose 23:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

wrote "Connection to Israel-Palestine - replaced with just Middle East, so called 'Palestine' irrelevant." The use of "Israel-Palestine" is NPOV and relevant. It refers, in this context, to territory occupied by Palestinians and Israelis--most of which has never been annexed by Israel. "Palestine" is also the term used by the UN in reference to this territory.--DieWeibeRose 09:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Would it be possible to interview Abramoff? - RaisenBran

Revert war about a Juan Cole link
This link: http://www.juancole.com/2006/01/abramoff-and-al-arian-lobbyists.html has been added and reverted numerous times. I wonder what's the consensus about this? On the one hand, the charges are inflammatory. On the other, I was under the impression that Juan Cole was a recognized expert on the Middle East. Should the link stay or go?--RattBoy 00:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Leave it, Cole is a recognized expert. Even if "inflammatory," the "charges" are true and informative.--64.18.237.141 00:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Juan Cole is an opinion blogger and Professor of History. As the by-line on his site notes, these are "Thoughts on the Middle East, History, and Religion". He is most definitely expert, but in this case, Professor Cole is rebutting the speculation from The Hill that the sniper classes are for the IDF. He is also commenting on the ME situation by posing the hypothetical that if a Muslim had sent sniper equipment to a Palestinian, they would be arrested, thrown in Gitmo, etc.
 * It needs to be given the weight of an opinion, not fact. (IIRC the text was "as Professor Cole points out," a phrasing which gives the opinion the weight of professorial research and fact; one does not 'point out' an opinion) I would argue that it would be better yet to cite and state the facts (Baytal Ilis is an Israeli settlement in the contested West Bank, Schmuel's "Kollel" was there, that's where JA sent the money.) Let the reader form the opinion. Beyond that we get into the arena of Middle East politics which is best left in articles about the Middle East. -Kwh 03:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Juan is a Jew basher, his entire article is conjecture. Why do you assume that he is an "expert" He has no way to verify the facts so he continues to make them up as he goes along. Abramoffs friend happens to be an IDF Sniper trainer and officer in the IDF Sniper training course.


 * Please substantiate your assertion that Juan Cole is a "Jew basher." How do you know Abramoff's friend is "an IDF Sniper trainer and officer in the IDF Sniper training course"? Source, please.--DieWeibeRose 06:46, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute re: "Connection to Israel-Palestine"
Under the guise of NPOV, Leifern has removed references to the illegality of Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian West Bank. It is, in fact, POV to omit these references as Abramoff's, apparently, criminal diversion of funds is aggravated by sending them to illegal settlements in occupied territory. Who would dispute the relevance and significance of this aggravating circumstance if the funds had been instead diverted to Islamic Jihad?

The illegality of the settlements and the fact of occupation is recognized by both the UN and International Court of Justice. Even the US gov't. does not claim the settlements are legal or that there is no occupation. Only Israel and its supporters--globally, a distinct and tiny minority--"dispute" the illegality of the settlements and the fact of its military occupation of the West Bank. Privileging this minority viewpoint is definitely POV.--DieWeibeRose 09:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Folks have covered some of this ground before but the pro-Israel POV keeps getting reinstated (see Talk:Jack_Abramoff).--DieWeibeRose 09:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Abramoff sent money to an individual, Schmuel (per his emails). If you read the primary source (his emails) it's not clear that he was not even clear on what they were being used for, only that he was helping out an old friend by paying for his Jeep, and he wasn't even clear on what 'kollel' was. I think this section is slowly getting to an actual NPOV. I can't understand why you think that the text (as of my writing this comment) is pro-Israel as it makes no mention of the disputed settlement/colony/whatever. -Kwh 17:08, 21 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Kwh, will you please provide a URL for the e-mails you cite?--DieWeibeRose 04:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * They are the documents at indian.senate.gov described as "Exhibits released to the public as part of the Oversight Hearing on Lobbying Practices". Abramoff's communications with and about Schmuel are mixed in amongst numerous other emails. I did a little more reading and found that it appears that Abramoff was funding Schmuel out of some pity (Schmuel's parents died young, Schmuel was raised by his aunt and uncle and decided to go to Israel, was barely getting by in poverty and told story about how his community was afraid of 'terrorists' in Israel, he was trying to help by holding these security/'sniper' courses). Schmuel uses a lot of mixed Hebrew/English and it's not clear how much of this Abramoff actually understood.


 * Kwh, thanks for the link but there are six large PDF files there and I don't have a fast Internet connection. Would you please narrow it down to the particular file(s)?--DieWeibeRose 07:39, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * To be precise, the jeep payment is talked about in part at pages 84-89 of this. KWH 04:50, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks.--DieWeibeRose 11:47, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * At any rate, I noticed that there is already a Wikipedia article on Betar Illit. If anyone wants to battle it out as to the legality/illegality of this settlement, maybe it should go there. -Kwh 05:46, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


 * FYI - According to the Israeli Government, because of its population size, Betar Illit has the status of a city. Though I'm not sure what that is as of now, they do have 35,000 children of elementary school age. It is Ultra orthodox, of the Lakewood, flatbush style. Half of its boundries are in the pre six day war Israel and the other half is beyond what is known as the "green" line. Two small arab villages neighbor Betar Illit. With a population of around a hundred familes each and make their living by working in Betar and for the cities municipality. On a visit last year, I spoke with the Arab residents of these two villiges and everyone I spoke with told me that they were glad that they were isolated from the Palestinian authority who they veiwed as cruel and were happy with their orthodox Jewish neighbors,who they viewed as "kind",  got along well with them and were happy to have employment in the city of Betar. I spoke with many residents of Betar who voiced the same sentiments. - Rosco


 * Rosco, The town on the Israeli side of the Green Line you mention is probably Mevo Betar; Betar Illit is entirely within the Occupied Palestinian Territories and is not described as straddling the Green Line. Your anecdote about the "happy" Arabs living near the Jews-only city of Betar Illit reminded of white Southern apologetics for Jim Crow laws--"happy darkies" and all that. True or not your anecdote doesn't make the settlements like Betar Illit any less illegal.--DieWeibeRose 09:27, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Most arabs in Israel are afraid of the Palestinian Authority, Fatach and the Hamas. They live in fear of them for the most part and fear SEVERE PUNISHMENT for falling out of line with what these various groups demand of them in the respective villages which they control. Being gun down in the street is common Hamas and Fatach policy. If you would travel to Israel and interview some of arabs then you would know that Rosco is not lying. The further the village is from intense PA, HAMAS or FATACH control the happier the arab citizens are. It's just a plain fact. * Its amazing to me just how much conjecture goes on here. It makes one wonder if anything written in the papers has any truth to it. - Brad
 * Mevo Betar is a collective farm two kilometers north west of Betar Illit and totally within the green line. Betar Illit has indeed one foot in and one foot out, which is of no consiquence. Your derogatory analogy using the African Americans is totally off.

ILLEGAL SETTLEMENT. We have proof that the Israelis lived in Israel for thousands of years before the arabs so why aren't the arab villages ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS? -Brad
 * Speaking of illegal settlements, according to Native Americans EVERY city in the USA is an

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 * REGARDING JUANS STATEMENTS - Most of these statements are conjecture. Juans assumptions cannot be proved so I have removed them. PLEASE stick with the FACTS. Unless you can prove the statement PLEASE refrain from putting it into this article. This is an ENCYCLOPEDIA not a newspaper.


 * vast improvment over the previous efforts. We'll save the accolades until the finished product. But for now your on the right track.


 * I read through the letters on his friend. It's not Encyclopedia material.Who knows how many friends or family members he gave hand-outs to. It really bares no relevance to the political crimes. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.0.181.94 (talk &bull; contribs).