User:DonaldRichardSands/Ariel A. Roth

Copyvio
The article takes entire text from what appears to be jacket cover blurbs from http://www.grisda.org/resources/bk_roth.htm and rearranges the text, but is still word for word copies in a different order. I've removed the offending sections along with a minor amount of extra text that would not make sense with the removal of the main text leaving an article stub. -- Whpq 19:42, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Hi Whpq, I think we have resolved the "entire text" issue. Thanks for your help. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Suggested Outline

 * I. Introduction
 * II. Early career (1948-1966)
 * III. Geoscience Research Institute - associate (1967-1980)
 * III.1 Origins journal editor
 * IV. Geoscience Research Institute - (director 1980-1994)
 * V. Retirement years (1994-present)
 * VI. The Creation-Evolution Debate

Expanded Outline, Suggested paragraphs

 * I. Introduction
 * I.1 Birth and teen years
 * I.2 University years
 * II. Early career (1948-1966)
 * II.1 Pacific Union College
 * III. Geoscience Research Institute - associate (1967-1980)
 * III.1 Origins journal editor
 * IV. Geoscience Research Institute - (director 1980-1994)
 * V. Retirement years (1994-present)
 * VI. The Creation-Evolution Debate
 * VI.1 Ariel Roth's contribution
 * VI.2 General Evolutionists' counter agrument

Chronology for Ariel A. Roth
Most of the uncited material is from http://origins.swau.edu/who/roth/croth98.html

1948 B.A. Pacific Union College

1949 M.S. University of Michigan

1949-1950 Teaching Assistant, University of Michigan

1955 Ph.D. University of Michigan

1950-1957 Instructor to Associate Professor of Biology, Pacific Union College

1956-1957 Additional training in radiation biology, University of California at Berkeley

1957-1958 Research Associate, Loma Linda University

1958-1963 Professor of Biology and Chairman of Biology Department, Andrews University

1958 The following teachers joined the staff of Emmanuel Missionary College at the opening of the present school year. Dr. Ariel A. Roth from Loma Linda, California, is chairman of the department of biology. He succeeds Dr. Frank L. Marsh, who is engaged in research and writing in the field of geology for the General Conference.

1962

Dr. Ariel Roth, chairman of the biology department at Emmanuel Missionary College, reports that a butter- fly and moth collection valued at more than a thousand dollars has been donated to the department. It repre- sents an exotic arraj of Lepidoptera from all over the world. The collection was brought together by George B. Mohlmann.

1963-1969 Additional training in geology and mathematics, University of California at Riverside

1963-1971 Professor of Biology and Chairman of Biology Department, Loma Linda University

1971-1973 Professor of Biology, Loma Linda University and Acting Director, Geoscience Research Institute

1973 ─  Professor of Biology and member of Geoscience Research Institute, Loma Linda University

1974 A three-man team of LLU scientists spent a week living 50 feet below the ocean surface off the Bahama Islands in May. Led by biologist Ariel A. Roth, the team studied coral formations one and a half miles off Freeport, Grand Bahama Island. They lived in an anchored 18-foot metal hydro-lab when not conducting their experiments. The underwater laboratory and sleeping quarters is operated by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration of the Department of Commerce and is used by various research groups.

Has given hundreds of lectures over the World, and conducted dozens of geology field trips in Europe, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States

1979 Wrote the Geoscience Research Institute's CORAL REEF GROWTH, Origins 6(2):88-95 (1979). http://www.grisda.org/origins/06088.htm

1980 ─ 1994 Director, Geoscience Research Institute

1981

1993

1994 – 1996 Senior Research Scientist, Geoscience Research Institute

Numbers info about Roth

 * Roth was born in 1927
 * He was a former student of Clark
 * Ritland hired Roth
 * He earned a doctorate in parasitology at the university of Michigan
 * He became a geologist educated at the University of California at Riverside.
 * He along with Coffin maintained their Young earth creationist stance.
 * In 1969, Roth, along with others, helped publish the comprehensive work entitled Creation - Accident or Design?
 * Roth edited GRI's journal Origins, founded by Brown. He helped set a new standard for critical creationist scholarship. From Berney Neufeld's early expose of the Paluxy River tracks to Arthur V. Chadwick's debunking of Burdick's Precambrian pollen and Brown's own assault on Gentry's radioactive halos, it carried some of the most trenchant analyses of creationist claims to appear in print. Under Roth's editorship, by the 1980s it had become a publication of choice even for non-Adventist creationists.
 * Roth advocates flood geology.

"Ritland gave a part-time appointment to Ariel A. Roth (b. 1927), a former student of Clark's who had earned a doctorate in parasitology at the University of Michigan and who used his time with GRI to retool as a geologist at the University of California at Riverside. Unfortunately for Ritland, he proved to be only an average judge of character. Although James and Lugenbeal lined up solidly behind his revisionist program, Coffin and Roth ultimately found it psychologically and theologically impossible to break substantively with the flood-geology model. When Roth "backed off from the brink" and retreated to the shelter of White's cosmogony, the badly disappointed Ritland knew the tide had turned. 27

"The nearly simultaneous publications of two GRI books at the end of the decade - one by Coffin, the other by Ritland - publicly exposed the widening fissure between the two institute factions. In 1969 Coffin, assisted by Roth, Clark, and a few other traditionalists, brought out a comprehensive work entitled Creation - Accident or Design? As Clark had been urging for decades, Coffin modified Price's scheme by accepting post-flood glaciation and an orderly geological column; and, following Ritland, he allowed for substantial pre- and post-flood fossilization. But he refused to deviate one jot from a strict reading of the Bible and the writings of White. Only the imprecision of White's statements on the age of the earth gave him the latitude to add a few years to the six thousand she frequently mentioned. 28

...

"He and his colleagues at the GRI especially liked to contrast their careful studies with the sometimes slipshod presentations of Morris and his staff at the ICR. Indeed, the GRI's journal Origins, founded by Brown and edited by Roth, set a new standard for critical creationist scholarship. From Berney Neufeld's early expose of the Paluxy River tracks to Arthur V. Chadwick's debunking of Burdick's Precambrian pollen and Brown's own assault on Gentry's radioactive halos, it carried some of the most trenchant analyses of creationist claims to appear in print. By the 1980s it had become a publication of choice even for non-Adventist creationists. 32

"Under Brown and his successor, Roth, who moved the institute's main offices to Loma Linda, California, the GRI devoted itself to salvaging what it could of flood geology."

CV
Southwestern Adventist University. Qualifications and Experience of Ariel A. Roth, Ph.D. http://origins.swau.edu/who/roth/croth98.html

NCSE
Creation Evolution Journal. Issue 7 (Winter 1982) Victory in Arkansas: The Trial, Decision, and Aftermath Creation Evolution Journal Title: Victory in Arkansas: The Trial, Decision, and Aftermath Author(s): Frederick Edwords Volume: 3 Number: 1 Year: 1982 Quarter: Winter Page(s): 33–45 This version might differ slightly from the print publication. http://ncse.com/cej/3/1/victory-arkansas

Why Creationism Should Not Be Taught As Science Creation Evolution Journal Title: Why Creationism Should Not Be Taught As Science Author(s): Frederick Edwords Volume: 2 Number: 1 Year: 1981 Quarter: Winter Page(s): 6–36 This version might differ slightly from the print publication. Part 2. The Educational Issues http://ncse.com/cej/2/1/why-creationism-should-not-be-taught-as-science

Fatal Flaws: What Evolutionists Don't Want You to Know by Hank Hanegraaff Reviewed by Michael Buratovich Review: Fatal Flaws Reports of the National Center for Science Education Volume: 26 Year: 2006 Issue: 3 Date: May–June Page(s): 46–47 Reviewer: Michael Buratovich, Spring Arbor University This version might differ slightly from the print publication. Work under Review Title: Fatal Flaws: What Evolutionists Don't Want You to Know Author(s): Hank Hanegraaff Nashville: W Publishing Group, 2003. 112 pages http://ncse.com/book/export/html/1855 Hanegraaff's book contains a great dependence on secondary sources, which leads to a perpetuation of common errors found in the works of many recent creationists. For a better book from a recent creationist perspective, see Ariel A Roth's Origins (Hagerstown [MD]: Review and Herald, 1998). http://ncse.com/book/export/html/1855

Creation.com
‘Millions of years’ are missing. Jonathan Sarfati interviews biologist and geologist Ariel Roth. http://creation.com/ariel-roth-interview-flat-gaps

Roth info from this site:


 * Dr Ariel A. Roth was born in Geneva, Switzerland.
 * He grew up in Europe, the Caribbean and North America.
 * He holds a B.A. degree in Biology from Pacific Union College,
 * a Master’s degree in biology and a Ph.D. in zoology from the University of Michigan.
 * He has taken additional training in geology, mathematics and radiation biology at various campuses of the University of California.
 * Dr Roth is a former director of the Geoscience Research Institute in Loma Linda, California.
 * During his career he held numerous university positions, including professor of biology and chairman, Loma Linda University, *where he directed a university team for underwater research on coral,
 * which was sponsored by the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.


 * He has authored over 150 articles on origins issues and for 23 years
 * edited the journal Origins (GRI) for 23 years.

Answers in Genesis
Ariel A. Roth, Biology article at Answers in Genesis http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/isd/ariel-roth by Ariel A. Roth on January 1, 2001

Introduction:

Record of Speaking Appointments

 * 1968, Riverside, California, La Sierra campus, Extension School lor ministers of Southeastern and Southern California Conferences, June 9-July 11
 * 1970, July 20 - August 21. Andrews University extension school in Collonges, France. Southern European Division
 * 1977, http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/CUV/CUV19771006-V82-19__C.pdf


 * 1978, Mayer and Roth debate in Liberty magazine re: Creationism in schools
 * 1990, Devotional message presented Sunday morning at the General Conference session. We shall behold him: In the wonders of creation. July 8, 1990.
 * 1991, Ariel Roth, Director, and Ben Clausen, nuclear physicist, from the General Conference Geoscience Research Institute located on the Loma Linda University campus, conducted a special seminar for eminent scientists of the Union of Sovereign States. Roth told Wilson that he had never met a group of scientists so open-minded in the field of science and religion.GCC1991-09, p. 23

Presentation to the CSF:
 * March 3, 2007, "Charles Darwin and the Eye."
 * October 15, 2005, "Was There A Global Flood?"
 * January 17, 2009, An overview of his book, Science Discovers God
 * May 2, 2009, "Was There A Global Flood?"
 * October 17, 2009, "Natural Selection Interferes with Evolution."

More to be added...

Information about Roth from the 1981 Deposition


The Deposition of Ariel Roth by Wolff provides a reliable source for much information about Roth. This section is for the listing of facts mentioned in the Deposition.


 * The DEPOSITION OF DR. ARIEL ROTH took place on Monday, November 16, 1981. (p. 1)
 * The information included is sworn testimony. (p. 3)
 * Stephen G. Wolfe, attorney at law for SKADDEN, ARPS, SLATE, MEAGHER & FLOM, 919 Third Avenue, New York, New York 10022, represented by STEPHEN G. WOLFE, Attorney at Law, appeared as counsel on behalf of the plaintiffs. He asked Roth the deposition questions.
 * David Williams, Deputy Attorney General, on behalf of STEVE CLARK, Attorney General, State of Arkansas, Justice Building, Little Rock, Arkansas 72201, appeared as counsel on behalf of the defendants. (p. 5)
 * Ariel Roth's curriculum vitae was identified as Exhibit 1. (p. 5)
 * In his vita, Roth listed a number of publications. He brought an almost complete set of those publications. (p. 12)
 * Roth's major area of study at PUC was Biology. (p. 13)
 * For his University of Michigan Master's degree his major was biology or zoology. (p. 14)
 * For his University of Michigan Ph.D. it was zoology. (p. 14)

Reliable Sources
Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselvesSelf-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves, without the requirement that they be published experts in the field, so long as:

1.the material is not unduly self-serving; 2.it does not involve claims about third parties (such as people, organizations, or other entities); 3.it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; 4.there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; 5.the article is not based primarily on such sources. This also applies to pages on social networking sites such as Twitter and Facebook.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-published_sources_(online_and_paper)#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29

Reliable sources/Noticeboard

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_7#Use_of_court_documents_as_reliable_sources

Education
B.A. Pacific Union College 1948

M.S. University of Michigan 1949

Ph.D. University of Michigan 1955

Additional training in radiation biology, University of California at Berkeley 1956-1957

Additional training in geology and mathematics, University of California at Riverside 1963. . . 1969

Work Experience
Senior Research Scientist, Geoscience Research Institute 1994 – 1996

Director, Geoscience Research Institute 1980 ─ 1994

Professor of Biology and member of Geoscience Research Institute, Loma Linda University 1973 ─

Professor of Biology, Loma Linda University and Acting Director, Geoscience Research Institute 1971-1973Teaching Assistant, University of Michigan 1949-1950

Professor of Biology and Chairman of Biology Department, Loma Linda University 1963-1971

Professor of Biology and Chairman of Biology Department, Andrews University 1958-1963

Research Associate, Loma Linda University 1957-1958

Instructor to Associate Professor of Biology, Pacific Union College 1950-1957

The Institute for Creation Research



 * Thomas, Brian. Continents Should Have Eroded Long Ago. Institute for Creation Research

Mr. Thomas, M.S. is Science Writer at the Institute for Creation Research.

Answers in Genesis
The Answers in Genesis news searcher returned 58 mention of Ariel Roth in their articles http://www.answersingenesis.org/search/?q=ariel+roth&site=news-articles

In Six Days, the Scientists

 * Jeremy L. Walter, Mechanical Engineering
 * Jerry R. Bergman, Biology
 * John K.G. Kramer, Biochemistry
 * Paul Giem, Medical Research
 * Henry Zuill, Biology
 * Jonathan D. Sarfati, Physical Chemistry
 * Ariel A. Roth, Biology
 * Keith H. Wanser, Physics
 * Timothy G. Standish, Biology
 * John R. Rankin, Mathematical Physics
 * Bob Hosken, Biochemistry
 * James S. Allan, Genetics
 * George T. Javor, Biochemistry
 * Dwain L. Ford, Organic Chemistry
 * Angela Meyer, Horticulture Science
 * Stephen Grocott, Inorganic Chemistry
 * Andrew McIntosh, Mathematics
 * John P. Marcus, Biochemistry
 * Nancy M. Darrall, Botany
 * John M. Cimbala, Mechanical Engineering
 * Edward A. Boudreaux, Theoretical Chemistry
 * E. Theo Agard, Medical Physics
 * Ker C. Thomson, Geophysics
 * John R. Baumgardner, Geophysics
 * Arthur Jones, Biology

Religion and Origins


 * George F. Howe, Botany
 * A. J. Monty White, Physical Chemistry
 * D.B. Gower, Biochemistry
 * Walter J. Veith, Zoology
 * Danny R. Faulkner, Astronomy
 * Edmond W. Holroyd, Meteorology
 * Robert H. Eckel, Medical Research
 * Jack Cuozzo, Orthodontics
 * Andrew Snelling, Geology
 * Stephen Taylor, Electrical Engineering
 * John Morris, Geological Engineering
 * Elaine Kennedy, Geology
 * Colin W. Mitchell, Geography
 * Stanley A. Mumma, Architectural Engineering
 * Evan Jamieson, Hydrometallurgy
 * Larry Vardiman, Meteorology
 * Geoff Downes, Forestry Research
 * Wayne Frair, Biology
 * Sid Cole, Physical Chemistry
 * Don B. DeYoung, Physics
 * George S. Hawke, Meteorology
 * Kurt P. Wise, Geology
 * J. H. John Peet, Chemistry
 * Werner Gitt, Information Science
 * Don Batten, Agricultural Science

Some YEC Biologists

 * Earl M.J. Aagaard Ph.D. Biology
 * Mark Armitage M.S. Biology
 * Chris Ashcraft M.S. Biology, M.Ed
 * Jerry Bergman Ph.D Biology
 * Kimberly Berrine Ph.D Microbiology
 * Raymond Bohlin Ph.D Biology
 * Patrick Briney Ph.D Biology (former atheist, now a Young Earth Creationist)
 * Art Chadwick Ph.D Biology
 * Robert Carter Ph.D Marine Biology
 * Ken Cumming Ph.D Biology
 * Daniel Criswell Ph.D Molecular Biology
 * Richard Deem Ph.D M.S Biology
 * David Menton Ph.D Cell Biology
 * Gary Parker M.S Biology
 * Ariel Roth Ph.D Biology

Coral Reef studies
Roth's reef studies are described in some detail.

Essays by Roth
TrueOrigin linked articles


 * “The long search for an evolutionary mechanism”
 * “Genesis and the Geologic Column”
 * “Incomplete Ecosystems”
 * “Life in the Deep Rocks and the Deep Fossil Record”
 * “Those Gaps in the Sedimentary Layers”
 * “Flood Stories - Can They Be Ignored?”
 * “Clastic Pipes and Dikes in Kodachrome Basin”
 * “Coral Reef Growth”
 * “False Fossils”
 * “Fossil Reefs and Time”
 * “Turbidites”
 * “'Flat gaps' in rock layers challenge long geologic ages” [PDF ]
 * “Some Questions About Geochronology”
 * “Are Millions of Years Required to Produce Biogenic Sediments in the Deep Ocean?”

Origins Journal and the Geoscience Research Institute
1980 Report at GC Session ... The most widespread and permanent influence of the insti tute will probably be made by the semiannual journal Origins. In its six years of publication under the editorship of Ariel Roth, Origins has become identified among both creationists and noncreationists as an example of careful scholarship and sound scientific approach. Origins is supplied complementarily to Seventh-day Adventist secondary schools, colleges, and universities, and to both science and religion teachers in these institutions. It has a growing list of subscribers from other individuals within the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and also among institutions and individuals not affiliated with the Seventh-day Adventist Church. R. H. Brown, http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/GCB/GCB1980-07/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=23

1985 Biblical Research Institute Report presented at the General Conference session. By GEORGE W. REID, Director ...Oversight and general supportive counsel to the operation of the institute is in the hands of a resident committee known as the Biblical Research Institute Administrative Committee (BRIAD). This advisory council includes members from the presidential, secretariat, treasury, and ministerial areas, and from the White Estate... The Biblical Research Institute Science Council (BRISCO) functions under the direction of BRIAD and deals with issues related to science and the Scriptures. Ariel Roth, chairman of the Geoscience Institute and a member of BRICOM, gives direction as chairman of this council of scientists and Bible scholars. A staff member of the Biblical Research Institute serves as secretary. In this manner BRISCO forms a link between the two institutes and provides an opportunity for scientists and Bible scholars to study together. BRISCO meets annually, often in a field location, to examine problems and to seek solutions in harmony with the Biblical view of Creation and the Flood. http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/GCB/GCB1985-09/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=11

1995 Gibson is director of GRI. He reported to the 1995 General Conference session: ...The institute employs five scientists and two support personnel. biblical Flood. Ariel Roth (Ph.D., University of Michigan) studies both living and fossil coral reefs. These reefs are believed to grow very slowly, which challenges our chronology of biblical events. http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/GCB/GCB1995-09/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=21

Roth and Mayer debate Creationism in public schools in Liberty magazine
Washington, D.C. Two eminent biologists - one a creationist, the other an evolutionist - debate the merits of teaching creationism in public schools in the September issue of "Liberty", a magazine dealing with church-state issues. The magazine is published by the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Dr. William V. Mayer argues the affirmative of the proposal, "Creation concepts should not be taught in public schools".

He is director of the Biological Sciences Curriculum Study and professor of biology at the at the University of Colorado.

A specialist in zoology, Dr. Mayer has published more than 300 books, articles and reviews and has contributed extensively to classroom material designed for secondary schools.

On the other side of the argument is Dr. Ariel A. Roth, director of the Geoscience Research Institute and professor of biology at the Seventh-day Adventist Loma Linda University in San Bernandino, Calif.

An avowed creationist, Dr. Roth is editor of "Origins", a scientific magazine devoted to the creationist viewpoint.

Dr. Mayer claims that (1) creationism as a science is unscientific, (2) it demands a denial of the senses, (3) it is advocated by a minority group,   (4) it is deceptive,  (5) it places an undue burden on teachers, and   (6) U.S. Courts would challenge the constitutionality of teaching creationism in public schools.

Dr. Roth counters with these main points: (1) the general theory of evolution fails to qualify as good science (2) scientists should be open to competing ideas about origins,  (3) teaching creation in public schools can be done constitutionally, and   (4) fairness and commitment to academic freedom demand that alternative ideas of origins be taught.

1982, Victory in Arkansas: The trial, decision, and aftermath
Harold Coffin and Ariel Roth, from the Seventh-day Adventist Geoscience Research Institute, the most well-known creationists to testify, presented arguments against evolution. They refered to such things as the apparent rapid fossilization of extinct forms (which they felt would imply a sudden catastrophy, such as a worldwide flood, rather than slow evolution), the great depth of coal beds, the possibility that coral reefs could have grown faster than what evolutionists say, and the fact that the oldest known bat fossil looks very much like a modern bat. But in spite of this seemingly science-based testimony, which the state had hoped would show that creationism was not a religion, Coffin declared under cross-examination that, if it weren't for the Bible, he would believe that the earth was millions of years old. Catastrophic events outlined in the Bible, and nowhere else, coinciding with his scientific studies, convinced him that a world-wide flood had occurred about seven thousand years ago.

Early Life
In the year 1905, W. J. Tanner was sent as our first missionary to Haiti. Four years later, at the General Con- ference session held in Washington, D.C., he was able to report 109 bap- tized members. When Brother Tan- ner's health failed in 1918, Brother Andre Roth, a young Swiss, was sent to replace him. By 1925, there were 20 churches, with 700 members.

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19590305-V136-10__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=21

1920, Mother, Hazel Roth
Sister Hazel Roth, wife of Elder Andre Roth, of. Haiti, who is visiting her parents, gave a splendid talk, sketching briefly the work in that field. She said the minister there does not bring -the people into the truth. fThe church members do that part. The minister then examines them and baptizes them.

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/ALUG/ALUG19200609-V19-23__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=4

Andre Roth, Ariel Roth's father
1962, ANDRE ROTH— GITWE TRAINING SCHOOL:

VOTED, To pass on to the Southern European Division the call from the Southern African Division for Andre Roth, administrator of the Lake Geneva Sanitarium in Switzerland, to serve as director of the Gitwe Training School, in the Ruanda-Urundi Union, for a period of two to three years; with the understanding that his retirement will be postponed for the duration of this period of service,

http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/GCC/GCC1962-05/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=23

Deaths: ROTH, Andre G.—b. Aug. 17, 1891, Tramelan, Switzerland; d. Jan. 30,1986, Chicago, ILL. He served as president of the Haitian Mission and Saleve Advent- ist Seminary (Collonges, France), as director of Franco-Haitian Adventist Seminary (Haiti), and as professor of French languages at the Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary (then located in Washington, D.C.). Following retirement he served as business man- ager of the Lake Geneva Sanitarium (Switzerland), and principal of Gitwe College (Rwanda). Survivors include one daughter, Elvire; one son, Ariel; two sisters, Ruth and Herminie; four grand- children; and five great-grandchildren.
 * http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19860410-V163-15__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=20

1929, Collonges
On the following Sabbath we met with the students and teachers in our training school at Collonges in France. This institution is the reg- ular training headquarters for the Southern European Division. Last year there were nearly 150 students, representing more than twenty differ- ent nationalities. Fortunately, most of the teachers are familiar with several languages. In the history class the teacher asks the questions in French, but the answers come in different languages. One student an- swers in French, one in Spanish, an- other in English, another in Italian, perhaps one in German. One might think that a school with so many na- tionalities might be lacking somewhat in unity of spirit, but the very op- posite is the case. The students and teachers seem like members of one big family, and they thoroughly enjoy their associations together.

Impressed With Simplicity One thing especially impressed me; namely, the simplicity of the prepa-

rations for the occasional outings. School is conducted here six days a week, Sabbath being the only free day. This gives the teachers an op- portunity to meet the requirements for the year, and yet set apart about one day in a month for an outing, which usually takes the form of a picnic on the top of the mountain just back of the school.

The faculty usually decide on the outing the night before, but no prep- arations are made till the following morning, when they can be fairly sure of the weather. Then the an- iioi mcement is given, and the students

quickly make the necessary prepara- tions for the outdoor meals, and are soon treading the path that leads to the top of the mountain. Once on top, they play all kinds of interesting games, and between games botanize and enjoy the views, being in the center of some of the finest mountain scenery in Europe.

When the time comes for dinner, each student receives a big portion of bread, a liberal slice of mild Swiss cheese, a piece of protose, perhaps some fresh fruit, and a bowl of delicious hot chocolate made with milk. The afternoon is spent in play and social intercourse and then the girls and boys each form a company and start single file down the steep mountain side.

This school in Collongnes is preparing workers for France, Italy, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, and various mission fields. In fact this one institution is training workers to occupy a field that includes about one ninth the population of the world. The Sourthern European Division, with its large Roman Catholic population and likewise a very considerable number of Mohammedans, presents perhaps one the largest problems that contront our denomination, but the Spirit of God has gone out before our workers, and there are many encouraging features, not the least of which is the goodly number of fine young men and women preparing themselves in this school in Collonges.

The institution is uner the carge of Prof. Andre Roth, who is assisted by a faculty of efficient and consecrated teachers. Besides separtate dormitories for the girls and boys, there is a commodious administration building, containing the chapel and recitation rooms, which command fine views of the surrounding country. There there is a school farm with cows and horses, and an excellent garden where many of the boys earn a part of their expenses growing the vegetables and fruits that appear on the well-supplied tables three times a day.
 * http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19291114-V106-46__B.pdf#view=fit
 * http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19291114-V106-46__B/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=26

Comments
HrafnTalkStalk(P) 08:58, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) This article currently gives excessive emphasis to obscure Adventist WP:PRIMARY sources. Please read WP:NEWSORG for what are appropriate news sources for basing an article on.
 * 2) In particular the fact that his department once received a small grant is completely trivial -- most major university departments would receive hundreds such grants each year, and they would amount for only a tiny proportion of the departmental budget.
 * Actually, trivial is in the eyes of the editor. For Roth, the leader of a biology department of a university that advocates a FRINGE view, this three year grant is interesting (a criteria for a wikipedia article). The study of this serious and widespread disease is relevant to Roth's story. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 12:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Here we go again. Actually, "trivial" is a matter of WP:CONSENSUS, and I've never found an editor other than yourself who does not find such minutiae trivial. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 14:53, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi Hrafn, welcome back. You have much to add to this endeavor. Aren't even self-published sources okay for information about the person. Haven't church published sources been considered reliable for example, EWTN on Roman Catholic issues. Certainly the material presented is not self-published and the facts are reliable, there is much to do. If Roth, in his CV, says he was born in Switzerland, wouldn't that be an acceptable source? Self-published about himself. If Roth declares something under oath, that seems quite a reliable source, kind of self-published, yet if he lies he is in contempt of court. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 12:33, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * No. Light use of church sources for uncontroversial facts is considered acceptable. Preponderant use of them violates both WP:WEIGHT & WP:PSTS. This has been explained to you before . To the best of my knowledge none of the material cited to date was published by Roth himself, so that whole issue would appear to be a complete non sequitor. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 15:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Within the Young Earth creationist community and among the science journals who have published Roth's studies there is a respect for the science reports he has generated. This article is about the person Roth, in the overall community of scientists, he has contributed, as most scientists do, a small amount of information; mostly about invertebrates. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 12:22, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Please cease and desist making unsubstantiated assertions of doubtful relevance. Please instead cite WP:Verifiable facts and actual policy. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 15:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Roth born in Switzerland, Reliable Sources
What sources say that Roth was born in Switzerland?

Two sources have been added since the tag was put on the article. Neither of them are self-published. Though, I suspect that Roth's assertion that he was born in Switzerland was the original source. Afterall, who will try to ascertain this by check birth records in Geneva?


 * And here we go yet again. Neither Sarfati nor CMI are reliable sources, so per WP:ABOUTSELF (&WP:QS) cannot be used about third parties . That you harp solely about "neither of them are self-published" means that you did not read the policy that you just quoted. This in turn makes me wonder why the hell I bother trying to educate you about policy over and over and over again. The WP:IDIDNOTHEARTHAT is getting very very aggravating! HrafnTalkStalk(P) 15:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you bother to tell me stuff that is incorrect. I have read the policy. We will not see eye to eye on this. We need an unbiased third party editor to help us think this out. Adventist sources are not unacceptable about the basic facts re: an Adventist. If it were a controversial matter, then perhaps. But a fact about a person's birthplace is not unreliable. There seems to be no possibility of consensus between you and I. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:32, 3 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I would further suggest that an Adventist-published creationist work is likewise a WP:QS. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 15:06, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hrafn, you are incorrect about this. Even if Roth published the information of his birth himself, it is allowed precisely because it is information about himself. And Adventist source is not a questionable source in any mention of another Adventist. Recall discussions about EWTN and is it reliable about Roman Catholic news info. You have consistently held that Adventist sources are unreliable about Adventists and this has never been stated as a WP decision. Nor has anyone demonstrated that basic facts about a person are unreliable. Dr. Baldwin is careful in his scholarship. He statement is reliasble. You have cast doubt on the truthfulness of what he has written. I suggest that your unwillingness to admit that Adventist sources can be reliable is a bias against Adventists. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:25, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

A tag challenging the relevance of Roths study of schistosomiasis
Roth studies of Schistosomiasis has been challenged for relevance. This article is about Roth the person. Are his studies of Schistosomiasis relevant to his biography. Schistosomiasis is a miserable, chronic problem and certainly those who study it are doing relevant work in the science community. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 13:35, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

This quote is from the wikipedia article on Schistosomiasis.

This abstract from the journal Transactions of the American Microscopical Society demonstrates the importance, thus relevance, of Roth's work along with others seeking to understand the natural history of Schistosoma. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 14:09, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Bearing false witness
The claims that: ...is blatantly false.
 * 1) " A tag [was] challenging the relevance of Roths study of schistosomiasis" and
 * 2) "Roth studies of Schistosomiasis has been challenged for relevance."


 * Hrafn, you are quick to tear down and do very little to help build a better article. The accusation of Bearing False Witness is unsubstantiated.

The challenged material stated merely that:

No mention was made in the material that Roth himself performed the commissioned work. But regardless of whether it was Roth himself, or simply his department, the amount involved is trivially small and probably represents no more than a few weeks of his own time, or a few months of the time of a research assistant. Any science academic of any standing or seniority would in all likelihood have generated numerous grants of orders of magnitude greater size than this one. It is thus irrelevant. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 15:40, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Roth is the head of the department. The depardment is awarded the money. Anyone who knows how a department functions, understands that the department head sees these things through. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:43, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

DonaldRichardSands: if you are going to claim that the quoted material is 'relevant', then please prove that it is relevant by demonstrating that $17k is a significant proportion of a university biology department budget (either EMC's or an average one). HrafnTalkStalk(P) 17:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Hrafn, the grant is relevant to Roth's department. The granting institution would not make the grant if they didn't consider it important. $17000 is small but it was big enough to warrant a news item and if he had pocketed the money, it would have caused quite a furor. The grant is relevant on the face of it. Why are you so against such an assertion? Just because bigger universities would consider this small change doesn't mean that Roth's department viewed it similarly. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:38, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Comment on sections Suggested Outline through Early Life
Please read WP:V, WP:RS, WP:PSTS and WP:WEIGHT again. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 16:47, 3 December 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) WP:TLDNR, so just skimmed.
 * 2) Regurgitating 50k of material onto a talkpage on-the-trot is completely excessive.
 * 3) Please sign talkpage posts.
 * 4) Excessive usage of adventist primary sources.
 * 5) Inappropriate use of unreliable third-party sources.

Welcome back, Hrafn. I have been supplying quoted information in the talk page section. There was very little activity at the time. The information can be collected otherwise. I wonder why you just attack and not try to build an article. Some have warned me about your dislike of people with faith. Certainly this is not true. Yet, in all of our activities shared you not only try to tear down what I write but I have never seen you try to improve an article on which I am working, as well. What gives? DonaldRichardSands (talk) 17:47, 3 December 2011 (UTC)