User:Eagleswings/Archive1

Dhimmi
I think you are having trouble understanding what origin means. Ibn Kathir, a jurist that lived 6 centuries after the Dhimma status was established, cannot be the originator of the dhimma status. The origin of the Dhimma status is the pact of Umar as the word Dhimma itself was the name of the Pact of Umar. Please stop trying to insert original research into the article. Yuber(talk) 22:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You are misrepresenting what has been written. I did not state that Ibn Kathir originated the dhimma pact. This was about the Qur'an as origin of the pact.  It was in response to ongoing discussion requesting authorities for the view that Sura 9:29 was part of the basis for the dhimma.  What Ibn Kathir did in his commentary was to review the scholarly work on this issue, and report on it.  I cited Ibn Kathir as evidence of the established view that the pact is based on Sura 9:29.
 * You are also mistaken in stating that the concept was invented by Umar. The word 'dhimmi' is found in the hadiths.
 * I have inserted no original research. Indeed I was very careful to provide references to orignal sources.  Wikipedia policy does not regard the citation of original sources and the scholarly work of others as 'original research'.  However insisting on an unfounded viewpoint as you do - that the Pact of Umar and NOT the Qur'an or Sunna are the basis for the dhimma - is 'original research' indeed. Eagleswings 23:04, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I still don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. Dhimma was originated by the pact of Umar.  It doesn't mean there aren't justifications for it in the Qur'an or whatever else you claim.  The sentence you keep changing is "the origin of the Dhimma status is traced to the pact of Umar".  This sentence is totally factual and sourced.  The sentence isn't saying there is no basis for the Dhimma status in the Qur'an, but rather that seems to be what your bias has led you to read it as for some reason or another.  So please stop  adding long quotes to the background section of the article and stop claiming I have vandalized your edits.  I kept your edits about later Islamic jurists justifying it as based in the Qur'an, and I even kept the Kathir quote but moved it to the quotes section. Yuber(talk) 23:14, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
 * You removed my reference to Muhammad's pact with the Jews of Khaybar, which predates Umar's pact.
 * I did not say 'later' jurists. Just jurists - it is a consensus opinion.
 * You say your point of view is not disputed. I dispute it.  Can you cite a single Islamic authority who wrote before 1800 who did not regard the dhimma as based upon Sura 9:29?  My point is that for a thousand years of Islamic history the accepted view was that the dhimma had its origin in Muhammad's pacts with Jews and Christians in Arabia and Sura 9:29. Eagleswings


 * Please respond to me in only one place, either the article's talk page or here. I am only going to check here so if you could move your message from there to here that would be fine. Yuber(talk) 23:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I can't undertake to do this. Some of the discussion issues need to be noted in article's talk page, as others will be interested in them. Eagleswings 23:36, 9 November 2005 (UTC)