User:Freechild/Archive 7

ARCHIVE 7 June 4, 2008 to August 13, 2008  '''[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Freechild&action=edit&section=new You can click here to leave me a new message. I will reply on this page unless you request otherwise.]'''

Potential National Historic Landmark
You're away on vacation, but I've been looking again at that article on the National Park Service's Assessment Study of historic buildings in relation to scholarship. I think there may be possibilities for reevaluation of some buildings in Omaha related to African-American history for higher levels of recognition - specifically the Douglas Co Courthouse and the African American Museum -in part because of their relation to the themes of racial violence and intimidation, and migration and movement (which most of the African American migration to Omaha represented), also grassroots and vernacular history. I think Omaha makes for an interesting case, because it was relatively isolated from other areas. In a sense it was one of the furthest points of the Great Migration, but never had the kinds of opportunities CA offered, for instance. The Douglas Co Courthouse became the focal point of events related to racial violence, the Red Summer of 1919 and postwar social tensions. It is on the National Register for its architectural qualities, not for these historic themes. I'd be willing to work with you on it if you want to try it. It may be possible to make a case and get support from the local historical society as well. Dennison's relation to the riots may be an interesting point, too.--Parkwells (talk) 01:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Freechild objection to notability tag page removal - Canadian Children's Right Council
Freechild, you created this web page. Are you for or aganist the notability of this page?

Are you going to deal with the issue or just change other's work? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.204.11.58 (talk) 16:40, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Notabilty Tag - City of Rockford Pipe Band
Freechild, I thought the "notabilty" issue was resolved back in 2006-2007 due to be band's MWPBA Champion Supreme status. I'm too close to the article to make a legitimate "call." Regards, Srebob (talk) 11:06, 11 June 2008 (UTC)srebob


 * Thanks Freechild, Your help is appreciated. Added citations (correct?) as you suggested and linked the Midwest Pipe Band Association's Wikipedia article. Regards, Srebob (talk) 10:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)srebob


 * Freechild,
 * Again, thanks - for the citation tag removal and reformatting the references.
 * Srebob (talk) 12:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)srebob

Scouts
. I really thank you for helping with the new article on the Little Sioux camp. You're an Eagle Scout but Canadian? — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 09:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Rlevse, and thanks for writing. It was definitely my honor to be able to write the article, to say the least. I was born and spent in Canada and spent my teen years in Omaha, where I earned my Eagle Scout. I also attended Pahuk Pride, both as a camper and staff, and spent dozens of nights at Little Sioux. It was my honor to write the article. • Freechild   'sup?   14:29, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Wow, you actually camped there. Thanks again for all your help. See the chat on the talk page. Besides adding whatever comes up about the disaster, we need to flesh out the history of the camp. Anything you could do there would be great. For samples of other camp articles, see Treasure Island Scout Reservation and Gilwell Park (of course Gilwell is rather unique. I wrote most of the Gilwell one. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 10:40, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Template:WikiProjectBannerShell v. Template:WikiProjectBanners
Hello, I noticed your recent edit on Talk:Little Sioux Scout Ranch. Considering you are the original editor, please give your reason why you prefer WikiProjectBanners over WikiProjectBannerShell. I find the latter to be more informative to prospective editors, especially considering the article in question is now linked to Main Page. Besides, all of the WikiProject templates already support the  option, which was made specifically for WikiProjectBannerShell. Best regards, Tuxide (talk) 04:12, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


 * There have already been two deletion conversations for the Template:WikiProjectBanners, in which dozens of other editors state my concerns more in-depth than I will here. But for the sake of courtesy, here is my reply. I prefer Template:WikiProjectBanners for the following reasons:
 * It reduces wikiproject spam clutter, particularly on articles with 3 or more banners
 * It has better overall utility
 * It has less whitespace, giving the page a crisper, more approachable look for new WPedians
 * And as for Template:WikiProjectBannerShell, simply put, WP:IDONTLIKEIT.

I won't participate in a discussion over which banner shell to use; however, if someone added |nested=yes to this page I would not argue, and it would essentially serve the same function. • Freechild   'sup?   14:27, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism
Your user page appears to have been vandalised. I reported it to the administrators. SJB (talk) 14:36, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Category:Eugene C. Eppley
The consensus was to delete. For items named after someone a template may be a better navigation tool. Your arguments did not appear to affect consensus. Adding articles did not appear to matter since the size of the category was not the only issue. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:11, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

OPL South
I haven't been to the South Omaha Library yet. As far as notability, one of the branch managers gave me some contact information and a lead to look into. I might be able to look at some files with some notable information for all of the locations (establishing date, history of how the locations were named etc). Fingers crossed. Nice or in evil (talk) 19:56, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've got an electronic copy of the public annoucement for the opening of the South Omaha Library that includes a picture (though black and white). Is a city public annoucement count as material that can be uploaded? Under what lience? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nice or in evil (talk • contribs) 02:45, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I found a compromise ( External links) Nice or in evil (talk) 03:43, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The administrator i contacted actually forwarded my message to a specialist who works with Omaha history. Once I sort out some stuff I might be able to post the current library board (I received a spreadsheet of about 200 names of people who have served on it and for several what mayor appointed them). I also received on a of the past library directors. Nice or in evil (talk) 19:08, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Gateway to the West Nice or in evil (talk) 22:45, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been using the above website for some preliminary research and pulled "Old Main" into a new table. [Former Libraries and Locations]. Nice or in evil (talk) 22:45, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to be at W. Dale Clark (the W. stands for Wilber) later this week researching OPL and possibly getting the establishment dates for the Catholic Archdiocese (they may have a book in reference that could help). I'm not sure yet what I'll find as far as OPL, but I have permission to possibly scan some of the info too. The BJE branch is going to be a bit trickier because I need to contact someone else. Nice or in evil (talk) 18:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay I have some basic info on w. dale clark from an architectual magazine from the 1970s. I'm trying to organize the info right now.  I've also have some information on a censorship controversy the OPL was involved in with in the early 1990s (appently the national press picked up on it). Nice or in evil (talk) 19:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Response to personal attacks
You might want to move your response to the personal attacks on Articles for deletion/Libertarian Party of Nebraska to User talk:Aldrich Hanssen. Having it on the AfD might escalate the issue. -- Explodicle (T/C) 05:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, it looks like an argument has started, I've moved it to the talk page. -- Explodicle (T/C) 18:08, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Timeline of Children's Rights UK
Hi, thanks for your help. The article is beginning to look authoritative. Yes, the Timeline was what I had in mind originally, with the 30th anniversary of IYOTC as my point of departure. But I knew I had to Wikify the material hence the result, which, with the article on the UK Commissioner, has yeilded a nice piece of symmetry. I'm pretty useless at formatting, so any help would be gratefully received.SJB (talk) 08:59, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for setting up Timeline. Unfortunately, I haven't found anyone else to help me with the UK development yet, so it is probably original research and I may have to sit tight. The question of UK-centricity has already been raised. SJB (talk) 19:40, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The question of UK-centricity is misleading. Because the USA did not ratify the Convention, the historical development is very different, with UK history as the story of failure to comply with International Law. Is it possible for you to throw any light on the USA's omission in the US Timeline ? SJB (talk) 08:17, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your continued support. A problem is that I am garnering much information from existing wiki pages. Please oould you clarify re 'citation needed' if EXTERNAL links are required in support of factual statements eg, or cross references to wiki pages. (This is proving problematic in relation to early Scottish developments.) Re your message about Category: Children's Rights in the Uk, I don't intend to create any others, as the Timeline is so huge ! SJB (talk) 22:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The two articles make for fascinating comparison, not least because the themes of criminality and institutional abuse have emerged as central. You may be interested to read this article from CRIN [ http://www.crin.org/resources/infodetail.asp?id=17736] which is interesting because it mirrors the confusion, presently in the UK. AS far as I am aware Maria Montessori was the only exponent of a holistic approach, which centred on the child's rights. I would dearly like to represent this somewhere, but can't see how to do it - especially since her wiki page is hotly disputed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Veraguinne (talk • contribs) 11:54, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Whilst I agree with the ex post analysis of state as deus ex machinae, an ex ante approach from the perspective of slavery, serfdom and male domination yields a more contextual view. The wealth of the aristocracy in the form of land and serfs, was immensely expanded by the proceeds of slavery. Victorian philanthropy was enabled by the proceeds of slavery accruing to the non-aristocratic 'nouveau riche'. Servanthood was 'normal' for the women (and children) of the poor, unless in receipt of an act of God (Pip in Great Expectations),or if they married well - cf Fanny Price in Mansfield Park, Estelle in Great Expectations. The philanthropists could gladly fight the good-fight for Emancipation, whilst holding their women- folk and children in abject subjugation. Hence the institutions of power and state were developed by men for the benefit of men. Phew! The Rights approach developed by Montessori would have emancipated both women AND children, so it was left to rot. But it is no coincidence that much of the UK development re CR arose in the first parliament where women are represented in equal proportion to men. Nor is it coincidence that much of the infrastructure for institutionalised abuse have remained closely-guarded secrets since time immemorial. The prevailing economic model is a side issue, in my view - the sub-text to the story of human bondage.SJB (talk) 20:02, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Adam, I don't believe that one person's view is ever more right than another's. We all have different perspectives arising from our uniqueness; and differences, through dialogue, can always be resolved, by developing shared and common meanings.

I believe that Victorian noblesse oblige has religious / quasi religious roots which inhabits much of political thought about children to this day. (Indeed Jebb was enormously religious, so were Dickens, Montessori, Fry and the Earl of Shaftesbury.) I too, adopt the religious perspective, but from the Liberation Theology approach, which runs counter to top-down mainstream religion and is wholly empowering of the individual. (the Wikipedia article is dreadful!) I would be delighted to collaborate on further articles as best I can, since I am not an academic in this area, only an interested bystander.

An article on UK CRs, as you suggested is intriguing, but probably some way in the distance, since the implications of the Timeline are somewhat problematic in terms of drawing conclusions as to the way forward.SJB (talk) 22:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the way forward is to knock around some ideas off-wiki? (Sorry, I'm afraid I culled your email address) Are you familiar with Daniel Goleman's 'Emotional Intelligence'? In my view it provides a firm basis for reinstatement of Montessori's principles - most certainly in the juvenile justice setting.SJB (talk) 09:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Hello
Hi Freechild, I would just like to acknowledge (however belatedly) that you were, of course, correct about talk page comments not being needed when maintenance tags (e.g. for notability concerns) are placed on a page. Please forgive me for my inflammatory remarks in the AFD. I hope we can work together on something in the future, and that this will not tarnish/poison our relations. I see that you are interested in children's rights; so our paths may well cross again as I deal with the anarcho-capitalist perspective on that subject. Take care, Aldrich Hanssen (talk) 01:05, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Timeline
Hello. Thanks for the message. I was trying to fix a few errors in the timeline and you reverted me on one while I was working through. Just to clarify: Jersey is not part of the UK and legislation regarding children is the responsibility of the States of Jersey. Man vyi (talk) 07:58, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I think (hope!) I've resolved this guy's issues here. SJB (talk) 20:50, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I am wondering if this powerful illustration might be useful on the UK Timeline. The artist has granted me permission for use, with the appropriate credit. Although asylum seeking children's rights have not been addressed, the UK expressed reservations on compliance with UNCRC for both children in custody AND asylum seekers. If you think it might be appropriate please could you upload it, because I am unsure. SJB (talk) 13:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment - it is becoming a story, even without a narrative. I'm not sure if you're unsure about the content of the illustration (ie melodramatic) or about the process of uploading the image. If the latter, I am happy to take all the necessary steps to make it happen. Please clarify if you think the image is inappropriate. (For the record, I am really only seeking a second opinion.) SJB (talk) 15:07, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for tidying up my sloppy editing.SJB (talk) 22:01, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the article is plenty bold enough, as more and more information emerges.SJB (talk) 08:50, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

From my latest research on Mary Carpenter's work, I can't quite believe that provisons for incarceration of children were made BEFORE the school system was established. Maybe I'm just thick. Carpenter's notion of provision for the 'Dangerous Classes' appears to have underpinned and informed the subsequent development of the UK education system. Was it so for USA ???SJB (talk) 11:47, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear. I am too cowardly (and ignorant) to go down that road. But trust that the facts are speaking so loudly that the reader will understand.SJB (talk) 14:06, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Profesor Sir Leon Radzinowicz in 1986 apparently blew the whistle about covert preparations for the First World War.  If you google him, you can see how well his work was received (!). Dr Heather Shore wrote this exceptional article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Veraguinne (talk • contribs) 18:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey there!
Hi, I was thinking the same thing about you! I actually had a 10-day vacation in St. Louis with friends and then have been fooling around with a new computer. It was fun because I went with no expectations, and after life on the coasts, was intrigued by what was different - like the French chateau-style City Hall, the wine country (first built by German immigrants in the 19th c.), the Mississippi and Missouri rivers, Cahokia Indian Mounds in IL, and freeway signs for Tulsa and Memphis. You could help me by looking at a question I posted on WP:AFRO, about a category for Heritage Tourism Trails (maybe that's the right name for the category.) I'll look at your Alberta article. (Am also pursuing writing up NHL nominations for Douglas Co. Courthouse, Omaha Star and Western Electric/Great Plains Black History Museum, because of how they represent important themes in African American history - they have Historic Bldg status, but not National Historic Landmark status). The US National Park Svc is trying to get more properties identified and I think these fit the criteria - due to your work and discovery of sources.--Parkwells (talk) 14:14, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey on Omaha
Thanks for your note - I suspect that all three properties were well-documented architecturally, and there may be enough info online (with Google Book Search) to document the social/historical aspects. One of the key things is that Omaha represented the far reach of the Great Migration - its ethnic composition did not reflect the rest of the state. In a way then, the events there were more important than they may have been in a state where there were African American communities in several major cities - at least that's what i think and will try to show. I'm trying to get cc of the NRHP nominations to see what they consist of. Will let you know ---Parkwells (talk) 11:20, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Template:Family rights
Hi. Sorry if you feel I've been rude; please be assured that is not my intention. WP:BRD, that's all. Sardanaphalus (talk) 04:17, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Poles in Omaha
What? No Little Poland article yet? I know you've been working on other things. I want to get a cc of the National Register of Historic Places nomination for the Livestock Exchange Bldg; I suspect they did not go broadly enough in terms of social history. I think the bldg could be recognized as the remnant also of the labor and social issues around stockyards and meatpacking, including labor organizing - as a CIO branch, the union did admit blacks and was progressive in the 1960s; by extension, the bldg can also stand (maybe) related to immigration and migration, racial tensions and violence. The mob that lynched Brown came from South Omaha. That might get it to National Historic Landmark status. That's offline (or off wikipedia) work I'm going to do.--Parkwells (talk) 14:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

IYOC
I made the amendments to show that the IYOC is a point in the continuum from the Declaration in 1959. This is noted in the 'Ater 20 years ...' sentence. Without that context, the article is confused and confusing. Also the amended version leads clearly into the Millenium Developoment Declaration. SJB (talk) 18:38, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

As I research the wikilinks to IYOC and UK Timeline, I find that most are stubs eg ATD Fourth World,Lady Blomfield, which find context in the above. In the reference to the Child Friendly Cities initiative, you indicated there should be a separate wiki page to the Conference on Human Habitat, but it would simply become another stub. Is there any other wiki way of pulling it all together?

Apologies, I'm afraid I've messed up the IYOC page - having somehow 'lost' all the citations below the table, although they are still on the edit page. It may be an error in my changes to CFCI (re stubs above); I tried to undo some revisions but couldn't find the actual source of the problem. Can you help me please? SJB (talk) 11:54, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Problem now resolved. SJB (talk) 16:22, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, any ideas how to get the page named Defense of infancy changed [or linked to] 'Age of Criminal Responsibility' ? SJB (talk) 21:41, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Another thought. The various Timelines are showing that the process of Emancipation is more about campaigning individuals and intitiatives, than about those in need. Whilst the Declaration and progress of UNCRC are the single means of unifying an oft-repeated story. SJB (talk) 22:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Can you help me create a Omaha Healthcare article?
I noticed that it was one of the things on the To do list for the project so I would like your help in creating it because I dont exactly know where to start. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Inbierno (talk • contribs) 04:42, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Omaha Cable Tramway
The standard for railroad articles is to omit the "company"; see for instance Pennsylvania Railroad or BNSF Railway. --NE2 01:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Personal Attacks - please try to keep the discussions civil
Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on contributors. Personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks will lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. --221.143.25.19 (talk) 02:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Please stop the dishonest personal attacks
Your statements about me were entirely false. If you read my contributions, you'd see there's plenty of stuff about Calgary I've added, that's far from promotional. My criticisms of your contributions have been based on the actual contributions, not you as a person. Unfortunately, for me, when pointing out a blatant  mispresentation, I find it hard to be polite. Aside from being false, your comments were funny. If I was hiding racism in Calgary, I probably wouldn't of posted a picture of a neo-Nazi in Calgary (complete with Swastika tattoo on head) waving a white pride flag in an article about a racist group. If somebody created a Timeline of acts of friendliness and social progress in Calgary, Alberta I would work to delete it, equally forcefully, even though such an article could easily be sourced. I would insist that it was to advance a bias point-of-view, and any inclusion criteria was entirely arbitrary. --Rob (talk) 02:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Please see my reply at the AfD being referenced. • Freechild   'sup?   04:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

thanks
It's nice to see that you finally realized you made a misrepresentaion of a source, and fixed it. Somehow, I knew the NY Times would never make such a mistake. --Rob (talk) 07:20, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Webster Telephone Exchange Bldg
Hi Freechild -

I totally agree on the importance of this building!, both as a community center for years, with varied roles in the black community, and since 1975 as the museum. Today I'm devoting to writing all this up, having explored what was required. You did so much work on African American history that basically I'm borrowing from your material and sources on Wikipedia, and other information I have. So far I have about 10 pages, with background for overall place of Omaha in NE and national history (especially related to its unique character on the Great Plains of early 20th c. concentration of European immigrants and migrants from the South). I'm also proposing upgrade to NHL of the Douglas County Courthouse (because of the lynching and race riot, and how these tie into themes of racial intimidation, migrations, and labor history), the Omaha Star Bldg (women's roles in community building, communications and grassroots history), the Jewell Bldg (Dreamland Ballroom and the importance of such venues in financial support of musicians, plus cultural transmission before TV), and the Livestock Exchange Bldg (from the point of view of labor organizing and the Meatpacking Union, as it's the only surviving bldg from the stockyards and meatpacking plants). I havent' been able to get complete copies of their nominations yet, but can see the emphasis areas by what's on the Nebraska list. If you want to send me your email, I'll send you a cc. Have been working all week on aspects of this and it's been brewing in my head for a while.--Parkwells (talk) 18:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Great Plains Black History Museum
Reading a copy of "Burden of Dreams" (I think) on the Omaha Black Hall of Fame site, I think it may be difficult to establish the national importance of the museum because of problems with management and maintenance, both by Bertha Calloway and her son Jim Calloway. Will have to think about how to proceed.--Parkwells (talk) 21:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi again. I may still try it, but they prefer that buildings retain integrity if they are to be of NHL status.  The management problems could affect the designation.  On the other hand, maybe they would consider the NHL status as helping to attract funding and management support.  The problem, apparently, has been the Calloways' unwillingness to work with others.  Yes, the building status should exist separately, but I wanted to make a point of its having been a successful grassroots effort at heritage preservation and community building.  That would be stronger than the bldg itself given the themes which the NPS is looking at (with scholars' help.)--Parkwells (talk) 00:24, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi again. Needed a couple of days away from this. From research, it appears this is one of the earliest grassroots museums organized on the African American experience, a point I will stress (It's one of the themes the assessment study had identified needed to be better represented in NRHP/NHL designations. As we know, everyone likes firsts. It is striking how many of the grassroots museums have been organized by women, especially in the smaller towns - I came across several in Louisiana through work on the state's African American Heritage Trail, but they are newer, from the 1990s. So, still working on this offline.--Parkwells (talk) 19:55, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Calgary
Hi Freechild - Was working on the Omaha NHLs this weekend. I agree with some of the editors' comments on Calgary - it reads as if it's overdetermined. Just because some events happen during a long history doesn't mean they arise from the same cause (except that humans are violent beings, who can doubt that?) or are linked. I agree with other editors that it would be better to have this as a list. Timeline is better for related events within some time period. I'm concerned that to list those violent events outside the rest of the context doesn't help people understand them. By picking these, you don't show at all why Calgary was credited with managing events in a relatively civil manner, at least according to one source. You've made so many great contributions; just keep up the good work - if any of those buildings in Omaha get upgraded to a NHL, it will be because of your research and writing.--Parkwells (talk) 14:44, 14 July 2008 (UTC) --Parkwells (talk) 20:00, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Rowena Moore
Freechild, you know you have found so much great material in Omaha. Today I was reading more about women like Rowena Moore. The Detroit Housewives League was organized in 1930 by Fannie Peck, and by 1935 had 10,000 women signed up. They were active in getting 75,000 jobs for black women in union industries and were part of organizing in the late 1930s in the meatpacking union, which was interracial and supportive of civil rights. Amazing people.--Parkwells (talk) 23:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC) (Put this on my page rather than yours by mistake.)  I'm going to try to work more of her material in with the union. Did you see that the book of oral history in meatpacking was funded by the NEA? I thought that was a good project.--Parkwells (talk) 18:07, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Hidden history
This would be a great topic for a long conversation, as fundamentally I agree that such histories had been hidden, or overlooked, but I've also been following the work of historians who for more than 40 years have been bringing it to light, and much has also been explored in widely read novels of the past 30 years. There was work before that, too (see "History's Memory") so often generational dynamics cause each generation to say it discovers something that overturns the previous generation. There are people working at many levels to explore the experiences of African Americans and other ethnic groups, different classes, and a generation of museums and institutions of culture in small and large cities devoted to all this, too. Considering how vague many Americans are about geography and basic facts in history, I'm not sure how many people "in general" will ever learn or retain what you would like them to, but many young people know all about current and past sports and military figures, musicians and cartoons (as you can see on Wikipedia). I think we differ in how we see the dynamics of the process. The US is so mobile, with such a number of migrants and immigrants, that often people's time in a place is shallow. They want to make it theirs from the present on rather than learn about the past. Having found some painful family history in research (and lived through some and seen how it was not talked about in the next generation), I also see that sometimes we have to tell ourselves good things to move forward (optimism is considered a great adaptive trait). Sometimes we just don't know how to talk about the most painful things, whether in families or in history. Also, people make their own meaning from the past. They choose which events they want to concentrate on, just as they do in daily life. Wikipedia attracts editors intensely interested in trying to add to the histories, because of the promise of audience. Who knows what articles readers go to, and what they retain?--Parkwells (talk) 14:08, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Lists
People are troubled by lists that are not related to context or content; for many, it smacks too much of the McCarthy years in terms of this particular topic, and also of Hoover's fixation at the FBI. Many people in immigrant working class communities came from more socialist backgrounds and labor activism in Europe. In addition, in the early part of the century, socialists and communists seemed to be the only ones who cared about some of the injustices of working class and race. Many people from labor, arts, writers affiliated with them, but I think it would be a mistake now just to make lists. There has been a lot of labor history written over the past 40 years (was just reading some of it recently). The issues are interwoven and have to be explored in their complexity. The better article would be to look at organizing of the meatpacking industry in the 1930s.--Parkwells (talk) 11:08, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Racial tension in Omaha
It isn't that I think racial tension or ethnic tension is only black & white, but it is what you have devote)d most of your article to. In that respect, putting in one brief notice of the Jewish country club doesn't work. You did not earlier mention the rise of country clubs or that Jewish and other minorities were excluded.  Because of the big 20th c. immigration, you might also have to investigate if Catholics were excluded (and how long that lasted), and if Catholics built their own country clubs (maybe) in reaction when there were enough with the wealth and interest to do so. (There are some on the East Coast.) It's another kind of social association. The country club issue also serves to demonstrate how some discrimination originally racial or ethnic has been playing out more recently along class/wealth lines.  Creating an article on racial relations might be interesting, as it also gives a chance to look at changing relations, such as within the labor movement in meatpacking/stockyards, when the violent competition between ethnic groups in the early part of the century became transformed by the late 1930s into cooperative effort to achieve the interracial union.--Parkwells (talk) 19:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposal for standard infobox for History of [country] templates
Hi there! You're a member of WikiProject History, so I'm just informing you about a proposal I've made about standardizing History of [country] templates (like Template:History of France). The discussion is located at the talk page for WikiProject History—your comments and criticism are welcome. Thank you. Mr. Absurd (talk) 05:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Jewish Loan Societies
Hi Freechild - That's an interesting source and it shows how useful the loan societies were in Omaha. The book mentioned similar institutions among Japanese immigrants; more recently, I've read about something similar among Korean immigrants in NY. Very powerful when people band together for mutual purpose. Will make more comments on the education piece later.--Parkwells (talk) 12:29, 29 July 2008 (UTC)


 * You care deeply about what you're doing, but also seem to be able to work with others. Some of the editors are so taken with their own opinions, everyone else is wrong, no matter what.  That is a pain when it happens. And we're all doing it on a volunteer basis! People are funny, that's for sure.  All of us.--Parkwells (talk) 13:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Knowledge ownership
Yes, that's probably part of it - and trying to work on ideas without ever getting to meet or talk in person. Overall, it's been a great experience and I agree with you about that - sometimes when I happen to follow trails and links, it's amazing to see what people have collected out of all their interests, professions and passions.--Parkwells (talk) 14:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Omaha Landmarks
You're so speedy, Freechild! I didn't want to delete them before making comments. You've done so much great work; it just seemed too confusing to have structures that didn't fit your criteria.--Parkwells (talk) 16:44, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks
Hi Freechild - This week I have had what may be the worst experience so far on Wikipedia, dealing with an editor on Lumbee. You should look at the Talk page for amusement. The editor started editing aggressively without discussion after the article had been relatively stable for a while, arguing with Talk entries from 2006, adding stuff throughout the page, rather than at the bottom where you might keep track, pleading the overwhelming case of the Lumbee, and aggressively attacking disagreement. I've hung in there but today decided it was a waste of my time. Who am I kidding? I'm not getting paid for such aggravation and have other stuff to work on. Hated doing it but decided to use my time better.--Parkwells (talk) 21:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments
Hi Freechild - Thanks for your thoughts. I may get back into it on that article, but had only come into the contentious dialogue this year. What was going on before was one thing, and I appreciate the sensitivity of the topics. This last week, though, was something else. I decided it was taking too much time to try to deal with the other editor, despite my interest in having NPOV in the article and approach. Of course I could see the bulldozer strategy. People who had been quite involved before were not weighing in much. Maybe I'll go back to it - but definitely needed a break. This is my time, after all, and I would rather get something accomplished. --Parkwells (talk) 11:44, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks -
Hi Freechild - Today was better - I did a lot of work on Narragansett (tribe), adding new material for both 19th and 20th c. and almost all the substantive sources. Of course, as you know, learned much, too. Their Supreme Court case will be heard this fall on land issues; should be interesting.--Parkwells (talk) 17:00, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

American Indian identity
Since you're always interested in issues of identity and race, I wonder if you've been following some of the controversies over Indian identity? Specifically, in Mar 2007, the Cherokee Nation voted to exclude descendants of Cherokee Freedmen and Intermarried Whites unless they had one Indian ancestor on the Dawes Rolls (unlike earlier requirements). Since the Cherokee held enslaved Africans, the 1866 US Treaty with them after the Civil War (some fought on the Confederate side) required that they grant freedmen citizenship in the nation, just as freedmen were being granted citizenship in the US. Very complex issues, but it seems like an unfortunate trend.--Parkwells (talk) 19:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Foxs and Sacs
No, not at all! Sorry about that. Sometimes my mouse seems to make text jump around, and I have to go through a couple of steps to undo it - if other text is on the clipboard, it gets lost in the shuffle (my shuffle). I remember thinking something was missing, then got distracted by a phone call, and forgot to look for it again.--Parkwells (talk) 10:54, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Native American identity in the United States
Yes, this is quite a topic, just like the many other identity topics. Some people want something that can't be challenged, but others oppose that if it doesn't include them; others want to self-identify. It has all the factors of every other argument about identity. With so much questioning on top of (because of?) so much mobility, no wonder Americans feel rootless.--Parkwells (talk) 11:51, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Cherokee
Their article seems to be based very much on Cherokee Nation sources, which is probably why it does not get into the urban issues. In another source, I discovered there were 20,000 Cherokee in CA - which nation they are enrolled in, if any, I don't know, but added it to the box of regions with populations, as it is more than both smaller tribes/nations listed.--Parkwells (talk) 15:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Half-breed tract
Fascinating stories, indeed. The more you look at any of the identity issues and stories, the more confusing they become, especially when people who earlier said the problem was that others kept them out, now move to keep others out or purge their rolls. There is a constant push and pull, which is why attempts to arrive at "stable", continuous, traditional identities seem doomed to failure. Everything changes, even the most traditional societies - by internal competition, war with others, environmental changes, etc. Why else have so many civilizations come and gone? Every tribe and clan used to have its own rules about who belonged, each group "patrolled" its borders in one way or another. We have a longing for wholeness as "people" and equally a longing for separation into small enough groups to comprehend.--Parkwells (talk) 12:17, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Fort Lisa (North Dakota)
Hello Freechild. I just read your new article Fort Lisa (North Dakota). It's a fine article. Good job! Regards, Masterpiece2000   ( talk ) 02:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Fort Lisa articles and disamb
Excellent! Of course that's the solution; I hadn't gotten that far. While there is ambiguity about dates, I think it makes a kind of sense that the one near Omaha was later and became the main one - it reflected changing conditions. This is consistent with the article on the Ioway Nation site, too, which said he first had a fort 200 miles north of Omaha. It's always hard to know, but the version has some logic to it.--Parkwells (talk) 11:46, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Question throwing all the way back to LAC, Lester A. and the Omaha...HoF:
I noticed LA's site has pics but his wiki page not only has no pic, it's missing the whole "musical artist info box" that's usually on the top right hand side for artists. Any idea why or if no reason, how to add? -Huge Fan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.173.46.98 (talk) 07:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Lester
Hi stranger! I guess my interests have become insular. (Or would you prefer "continental"?) Has Lester died? If not, why did you put "Lester Abrams (?-?)"? (If so, why not "(1945-2008)"?) I would not have thought that anyone would object to: "Lester Abrams (b. 1945)"? What lead you to: "Lester Abrams (?-?)"? Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk)


 * Hey PDF, thanks for writing. I really only wrote (?-?) for you, because I knew you'd answer the question marks. Is that tricky? And you added info to the infobox! Hah! Bait works, bait works... hope you and your editing is going well! Hopefully we'll bump into one another again soon. • Freechild   'sup?   07:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh dear! "Sucked in"!! OK, so I'm here. Now what? (It seems a bit of an anti-climax for you to have gone to such devious planning with such success, only to have me disappear back to my island continent.) Trust all is well in your neck of the woods. Best wishes, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Second Annual WikiNYC Picnic
Greetings! You are invited to attend the second annual New York picnic on August 24! This year, it will be taking place in the Long Meadow of Prospect Park in Brooklyn. If you plan on coming, please sign up and be sure to bring something! Please be sure to come! You have received this automated delivery because your name was on the invite list. BrownBot (talk) 20:08, 13 August 2008 (UTC)