User:Geogre/Talk archive 6

December 2004 - April 5, 2005

Schools in state X tables
I figured there was probably PD-USGov stuff on schools, like the rambot data, and found it here. I created a 'proof of concept' table for Rhode Island. It obviously needs help desparately from someone who knows tables better than I, and to do the whole country would probably need someone to write a regular expression or script (it took me a couple hours search/replacing it column-by-column in a text editor, and ideally all the redundant 'rhode island's would be hidden) to get the data from a sorted, column-rearranged form of the csv file (takes just a few minutes in a spreadsheet app), to table markup (and in hindsight either I just don't know Wiki table markup well enuf, or I think I should have stuck with HTML markup), but is this kinda like what you were thinking when you made related comments on VfD? Niteowlneils 23:57, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * PS FWIW, the data I started with is here. I did Washington first, but over 2300 rows seemed a bit overwhelming. Niteowlneils 00:01, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Wow. That's a lot of work on your part.  It is what I was thinking.  If some of the data columns weren't copied over (lat & long, e.g.) and there were a "notes," then it should please all.  What do the feebs esteemed editors who create these things want to do?  They want to get in there that the mascot is the Falcons and that it's a cool-neat place.  Well, a table that just ran with name, place, grades, and notes would allow them to type to their heart's content and yet not trip up the articles with 500 Lincoln High School and Maysville Elementary and Springfield College articles.  The people who write the articles don't think about proper placement, I'm convinced, or whether what they're writing has worth: they have the itch to write up their school, and they do, and then everyone who has ever been VfD'd before goes onto VfD to provide a swarm of "keep!" votes without addressing any of the big issues.  Geogre 00:05, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I guess I was thinking that lat/long seemed more encyclopedic than the other 'location' info in the table, the address. It would be easy to leave blanks for mascots, notes, "notable programs", "notable alumni", etc., that were commented out until there was data to put in them. It did take a couple hours, but a lot of that was learning, so others would go faster. I've used Awk, Perl, and Regular Expressions a bit for other things, so I might see if I can figure out how to use one of them to make it even faster. I've got too many other things to do now, so I won't get to it tonight, but hopefully I can get a cleaned up version up in the article space tomorrow, and see what, if any, reaction it gets. Niteowlneils 03:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Well, for whatever it's worth, I've taken Rhode Island schools as far as I intended (including examples of how to add private schools and use the "Notes" section), although I think I'll wait til Monday to put it in the article space, as I believe more people will notice and comment. Most of the time was spent figuring out the presentation--once a standard format is agreed upon, dumping the data for the other states into tables will go pretty quickly. I decided noting grade level ranges for all but 'other schools' probably can't be automated, and isn't important enuf to do manually, so I dropped it on the second table. 'By state' would be too big, and 'by county' would often be too small, so I adopted a hybrid approach. The main reason it took me all week was that I was unexpectedly called back to work Tuesday--extra employment is great for my bank account, but otherwise sucks. Niteowlneils 22:30, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Finally got them posted (with a few changes like limiting the first column width so there's more room in the 'notes' section)--Rhode Island schools. I'll probably post something on the pump soliciting input (name, formatting, etc.) tomorrow, and add more links to them, tomorrow--I'm about done for the night. Niteowlneils 05:39, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What's going to be interesting to me is how the "every school is as notable as the Mona Lisa" folks react to it. I think this is what's needed. It's encyclopedic. It satisfies the basic informational need on schools and prompts people to break out schools only when what you can say about them won't fit there (i.e. when there is something notable about them). Once a table like that existed, the VfD votes would be "redirect to" rather than delete. I have a sinking feeling that the "every school must have its own article, poorly named" people won't accept this solution. That's going to be too bad, if true. The next logical step would be a Rambot-like critter to create the material. There ought to be a way of programming something like that, but I can only just program a TiVo. Geogre 13:38, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * And it would be Rambot like--the largest qty of data for each school is the racial breakdown, just like the oft villified Demographics sections of the Rambot articles. Spotswood is particularly annoying--some random school that's only been around 25 years. Sigh. Actually, it did have it's 15 minutes of fame a few years ago, but are all these information preservationists adding that to the article, no, we get school colors and principals' names. Heck, they don't even bother to tell us their nickname is the Trailblazers. Anyway, it took barely an hour this morning to knock out Washington, DC schools, and I'm still spending a fair about of time figuring out what and how to present stuff--like in this case, city, county, and district columns would be ridiculously redundant, so I opted to keep hi/lo grade level columns. Still need to add 'notes' and 'private school' examples. Niteowlneils 02:29, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * The latest is Rockingham County Public Schools. Virginia posed new problems, as only a couple of counties had more than 20-30 schools, and the districts largely mirror the counties, so I decided I'd mostly have to go with district articles, with just some leftovers in the main article. Niteowlneils 05:49, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Preps are a different story, really. Inasmuch as they're commercial ventures, I think I, at least, would not feel bad at all in deleting any that aren't notable. At the same time, because they are private, they have a huge leg up on notability. One of the reasons I believe schools are not inherently notable is that they're mass produced. Each is like the other. A person who went to Gainesville High isn't shaped in a peculiar and particular way by the Gainesville High experience. He or she is simply shaped by the high school experience. On the other hand, preps have a habit of differentiating themselves and attempting to have unique characters. A boy who goes to Saint David's School in NYC is going to be molded differently from one who goes to St. Bernard's School in NYC, because one school emphasizes an art curriculum and an ultra-radical Catholicism, and the other is a Vatican II type of Catholic school with a literature bias. In the case of public schools, the emphasis is on absolute uniformity, and any character is largely accidental and transitory. That's why the "It affects lives" argument carries no weight with me and why I keep comparing them to donut shops: they affect lives in an interchangeable manner. Geogre 04:28, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Keeping garbage on Wikipedia
Now I'm the one fed up with people auto-voting "keep" on garbage (User:Niteowlneils). Apparently they didn't research beyond reading the WP article--I don't want to waste my time checking, but I assume at least some are among those who whine about Rickk, et al, 'not doing enuf research' before nominating. Sometimes I think it would be easier to start a fork site that had a less broken deletion process and let this one collapse under its own weight. Niteowlneils 03:03, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Tell me about it. I know the first version of Wikipedia was a peer review/scholarly thing, and it ended up having no articles.  The people running it gave up and made Wikipedia.  Well and good.  However, Wikipedia's first impulse was "please write articles."  When I got here, it was still crying out for content.  Now, it's the playground of 12 year olds, and the democratic nature means that it only takes a constellation of those 12 year olds (and it's just surprising that it didn't happen sooner) to have enough in common to disregard the stated policies of the site, the guidelines, etc. and be persuaded that "Why not? What harm does it do? Can you prove that it's not famous?" to replace the demands of an encyclopedia.  Self-confessed prank articles, snake oil, and self-confessed vanity pages are all getting "autokeep" votes.  This, to me, is why sane folks need to be working on VfD Old.  I don't do it -- can't undertand how -- but I'd be damned tempted to ignore auto-keep and auto-delete votes, to disregard any votes that didn't have a rationale.  Geogre 03:19, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ArbCom candidate statements
(here) When I got to CunningLinguist's 'I want WP to be more inclusionist' I was like {sigh}, but then, what does ArbCom have to do with that issue? However, when I got to Lir, I was shocked--if half of what he says about his 'private sockpuppet army' is true, it's pretty scary. And, IMHO, Angela is an ideal Wikipedian--the epitome of conscientiousness and helpfulness.
 * I believe Lir's claims. More to the point, I believe that a lot of people are going to vote with brand new or seldom-used accounts.  This is beyond monkey wrenching deletion, now, and is, in fact, an organized attack.  Geogre 03:20, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * They can't. You must have three months' seniority to get a vote. Lir is doubtless just winding you up.Dr Zen 03:27, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * You probably don't know Lir. He really could have an "army" of sockpuppets of more than 3 months' age.  I've never been part of the Lir fight -- don't like fights -- but he's kind of sophisticated about messing things up.  Geogre 03:54, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Kneazle
I've reworded the "ultimately by JK Rowling bit and the part about poorest children of the world to include more specific information. [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 22:18, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

 Did you know has been updated and a fact from the article The Book of Sports, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you have another interesting fact to submit, then please suggest it at the section's talk page. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 09:07, Dec 8, 2004 (UTC)

A parade of Urkel impersonators?
Hehe, thanks, that made me chuckle...unfortunate that it was a duplicate vote and not too many people will see it. The real meaning of the name is much more mundane, however (Ferkel is Geman for piglet). Oh, and thanks for your support on the vote :) -- Ferkelparade &pi; 18:45, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Aw, shoot. Now the mystery is gone!  I was looking over the RfA and wanted to find someone to vote for.  Most of the nominees were people I had no direct knowledge of, or whom I was tepid about, and I simply missed seeing my own name on your vote.  "Well, I can't believe I didn't vote for him," I thought.  Perhaps I can amend my first vote with the joke. :-)  Good luck with the rest of the voting. Geogre 04:53, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Foghat
You do realize there is no wikipedia article on Foghat, don't you? This is quite an oversight. Unfortunately I know nothing about the band, though I do have this image of long hair and beards and big hats, and even if I was sure its right, that's not much of an encyclopedia article. Are you prepared to remedy this situation? Oh, and don't forget to include at least 32KB on each of their songs, and articles describing each of their album's artwork in great detail. -R. fiend 22:35, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * LOL. Absolutely!  We must have an article on Foghat.  I had no idea that our encyclopedia was so utterly bereft of worth as to have such a gap!  What kind of a pop culture fanpage encyclopedia is it with no Foghat article?  Hopefully, BTO, Grand Funk Railroad, and Blackfoot are well represented.  I think it should have a good five to six separate pages for each hit song, plus an article on the album design, which I will nominate for the Featured Article on the front page.  One thing that is of interest in the band (and they were...well...a rock band, and not bad) is that they themselves are convinced that the plot of This Is Spinal Tap was stolen from their actual career.  "Slow Ride," their inescapable hit of 1979 or so, did have this neat backward recorded cymbal crash that was neat.  They also had a song ...  no, it was Head East ... that sang "Sweet lovin' woman much better than a white line."  I joyfully sang that in my teens, at the roller rink, without realizing that it was a cocaine reference.  Ahh, 1978 -- as Victoria Williams called it -- "The Summer of Drugs."  Geogre 22:42, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Ok, I have fixed the horrible lack of an article on Foghat, but there's still no article on Head East, and I'm not about to write one. Oh, I don't think I'll be adding Foghat to my brag file.  Geogre 23:04, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Looks good. I won't complain about the lack of a Head East article. While I at least recognized Foghat as a band I had never heard of Head East (perhaps I haven't been rummaging through the dollar bins at the used vinyl stores enough of late). I guess, being only 3, I missed the summer of drugs. Too bad, I guess there's time to make up for it now. Oh, the Foghat article could use a picture, if only just to see if I was right about the hair and beards and hats image I had. -R. fiend 05:21, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Adminship
Salve, Geogre! Back in September I was a candidate for adminship, but I withdrew and since then, I've been working away and have now decided to try again, nominating myself. Though you voted to oppose at that time, you seemed receptive to a future candidacy and, therefore, I'd appreciate your vote on the new candidacy at Requests for adminship/PedanticallySpeaking2. Ave atque vale! PedanticallySpeaking 19:15, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)
 * You bet. Consider that at least one pro vote.  Pro sit.  Geogre 19:51, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Article Licensing
Hi, I've started a drive to get users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to either (1) all U.S. state, county, and city articles or (2) all articles, using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) v1.0 and v2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to Wikipedia's license, the GFDL, but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles. Since you are among the top 1000 Wikipedians by edits, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles. Over 90% of people asked have agreed. For More Information:
 * Multi-Licensing FAQ - Lots of questions answered
 * Multi-Licensing Guide
 * Free the Rambot Articles Project

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the " " template into their user page, but there are other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:


 * Option 1
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:

OR
 * Option 2
 * I agree to multi-license all my contributions to any U.S. state, county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace " " with "  ". If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know what you think at my talk page. It's important to know either way so no one keeps asking. -- Ram-Man (comment| talk)

RFC pages on VfD
Should RFC pages be placed on VfD to be deleted? I'm considering removing Requests for comment/Slrubenstein, Requests for comment/Jwrosenzweig and Requests for comment/John Kenney from WP:VFD. Each of them was listed by CheeseDreams. Your comments on whether I should do this would be appreciated. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:42, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Poetic diction
Here's a stub you might like to help expand: Poetic diction. Filiocht 14:13, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

Unbelievable work on Poetic diction, guys. Little did I think so much would happen so quickly. As of the next month or so, I'll be working on The Cantos, reading canto-by-canto, checking the refs, making notes and filling in the article, but I will try to add to PD too. You and Geogre are the kind of people who keep me working here, no matter how much I get pissed off with a lot of what goes on. Filiocht 08:34, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)

Hey, I want to talk to you. I heard that you banned my school from this website, is that true?

I don't know. I don't know who you are, but your user page doesn't inspire confidence. I have banned vandals, so, if you use a computer that a vandal is also using and therefore the same IP, it's possible that the terminal will be banned for 24 hours. We ban by IP, not by user name, and certainly not by "school." Geogre 00:58, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Classroom blog
Great. I think I actually speedied or reverted something by User:Maggie102, before there was so much chatter between her and her buddies. Hopefully she will get bored with WP and if she goes I bet the guys that seem to have followed her here will drop off, too. It's interesting that their IP buddy starts with 66., while the vandal you reverted starts 24. Anyway, FWIW, you might want to look at Votes for deletion/List of music videos by year 1997 (it didn't get much attention because it was added to the main VfD page shortly before all the noise of the re-nominations of the 'US Presidential elections controversy' article) and the bottom two sections of Talk:List of music videos by year, and see if you want to add your two cents. Niteowlneils 03:22, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Speaking of bannable IP editors, that one is almost surely not a real IP editor. I suspect that's one of the regular users who logs out to say nasty things and do controversial things or one of the regular users who has been in trouble already.  I don't think there ought to be a List of music videos at all, but the break-outs need to stay that way.  Seems that one of the kids in the WikiHomeroom, above, has hit a 48 hr ban already, so this may be a "collate list of offenses and then RfC the lot" situation. Geogre 15:10, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

 Did you know has been updated and a fact from the article Foghat, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you have another interesting fact to submit, then please suggest it at the section's talk page. - [[User:MacGyverMagic|Mgm|(talk)]] 19:26, Dec 11, 2004 (UTC)

VFD comments
I enjoy reading your comments on some of the more delete-worthy articles at WP:VFD. You've mastered a fine art: being clever without being uncivil. Joyous 00:18, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)

HYP
May I ask you to please read the evidence that I have posted on Votes for deletion/HYP, follow and read some of the links that Google brings up, and consider whether afterwords you still want to delete the article? Thank you. &mdash;Lowellian (talk)  08:59, Dec 12, 2004 (UTC)
 * I have looked, and I'm really on the fence. It seems to me that the resulting article could be extremely short -- a sentence or so with a triple link to the three universities -- but the question that keeps coming up, to me, is who is going to need an article on the subject and, if it isn't here because people who hear only the term need it explained, what kind of discussion can we do of it?  There is some in there now, but the demands of NPOV mean that the result is pretty full of weasel words.  Again, I'm staying on the fence, but I am considering it (and have been since the first unearthing of common use).  Geogre 17:42, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Fancruft
Would you mind joining the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Fancruft? You seem to be a person with strong opinions on this subject. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk, automation script)]] 01:28, Dec 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * For whatever it was worth, I gave my summary of the subject. I'm concerned that the page so far has only the voices of those against fancruft, but it's possible that fancruft is like "political correctness":  everyone hates it because no one thinks that he's guilty of it.  Perhaps someone like Meelar might have something contrary to say, but perhaps things would only get rancorous.  I don't know. Geogre 04:57, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I am impressed by the insightfulness of your thoughts at User:Geogre. That's by far the most sensible stuff I have come across in this context, and would make an excellent policy draft. What do you think about putting it onto Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy or a subpage thereof and agressively ask people to discuss it? 62.214.28.180 17:50, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC) <- User:Kosebamse, apparently not logged in at time of writing

Uhm, I gave you your own page, more or less, at Wikipedia talk:Fancruft/Geogre's thoughts. Then I made it worse by turning it into a debate slash soapbox forum. Sorry. :-) JRM 00:59, 2004 Dec 14 (UTC)

Rat Park
Hi Geogre, I'm finding your input re: Rat Park very interesting, but I was wondering whether it was getting a bit long for that page (I don't know what the usual thing is), so just in case it is, I've copied it to Talk:Rat Park. Of course, you should feel free to continue it there, elsewhere, or not at all, as you see fit. Best, Slim 03:34, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
 * No problem. There is a real Object there, though, and it can be scaled down to "POV," with a sub-objection of "clarification."  The aims of the experiment and the conclusions need to be clarified.  If the experiment attempted the conclusion of "no physical basis of addiction," then I can see why the scientific journals were against it.  If the conclusions were "addictive behavior is the result of stress," then I think the journals probably rejected it for significance.  (Worked with a journal editor for a while.)  Geogre 04:46, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Geogre, the experiment's conclusion was: "Theories of physical and psychological addiction have no empirical basis, but have not been disproven." I will work to clarify, and hopefully in the course of that some of the POV will melt away, then I can get rid of what's left. I'm truly not POV about this at all, except that I have the philosophical objection (which I don't see as POV) that scientists are too quick to draw certain conclusions from their research and often make epistemological errors as a result, which is what I feel the drugs-are-addictive scientists have done. But I have a particular writing style, which I'm trying to curb without losing entirely, that can make my material look POV, when I simply want it to be a compelling read. Anyway, there is more argument for you on Talk:Rat Park, but as I said, don't feel compelled to debate it. In the meantime, I will work to improve the article. Thanks for your input so far, which is much appreciated. Best, Slim 05:00, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)
 * Well, just as an aside, years ago, I was put on morphine as a daily pain killer. This is something that I take every day, with no euphoria at all.  There is no psychological boost to it at all.  However, if I miss a dose by forgetting, my body will definitely tell me.  Withdrawal is very real.  I agree, of course, that the "War on drugs" is moronic.  I also agree that causality with psychological matters is a chimera.  (I have a big gripe with anti-depressants.  If I kill your dog and then draw blood, your seratonin levels may be all messed up, and yet the seratonin levels did not cause your depression.  Furthermore, we're not sure that depression doesn't have a function in health.  The same may well be true of the "addictive personality," for all I know.)  My concern is only that the two meanings of "addiction" -- physical dependence vs. psychological compulsion -- not be tangled. Geogre 05:15, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hey, George, just to let you know, i am not the leader of the group mentioned in Homeroom Wikipedia OMG: Chatting With Kids. It's Cows, but he's moved away. -Wd-40

Annoying thinks-they're-better-than-everyone-elses-on-geeky-websites? Like, OMG!
Hey, misspelled George! I read what you said about my friends and I on your talk page. What do you mean "100% meaningless talk page editing" or whatever? I happen to write articles outside of talk pages! (See my contribution list!) And, what on EARTH does OMG stand for? If it stands for Old, menacing Geezer-whose-head-I-would-like-to-smash-into-the-head-of-postdlf-(who is the minion of said old menacing geezer)-and-then-laugh-at, then I suppose OMG really fits you. And that's what I think. Thank for your time, and don't expect me back at Wikipedia for a long time.

phone?
Hiya, misspelled George, could you get off line, please?--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 23:11, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

about article 'unders', speedy delete?
In the discussion page for the article 'unders' you said you'd be seeing if it could be given speedy deletion. Any success? Thanks. RJFJR 07:18, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Spire
Do you agree with the edit at Spire "this article needs a lot of work in the minor-change, formalization department?" -  Can't say that I do, but I have reverted his edits which delinked the centuries. Its always been one of my favourite efforts; interesting to see what Centrix makes of it. Giano 10:44, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

RFA thanks
Salve, Geogre! I wanted to drop you a line to thank you for your support in my successful RFA candidacy. It was very gratifying to see the kind remarks posted by yourself and others. Ave! PedanticallySpeaking 17:22, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)

Come on, man, didn't you write the article on A Tale of a Tub? We both work on notable cultural subjects, and I don't malign your work, but you say mine isn't even encyclopedic? You always vote like this, and I'd like to understand your reasoning, I'd like for you to explain it to me. Everyking 03:28, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I wasn't maligning your work. I was saying that an article that tracks album sales is not encyclopedic.  The reasoning is this:  a set of facts, a raw record of events, is not encyclopedic.  Encyclopedic information contextualizes and discusses information.  It provides both a narrative of explanation and a placement of a thing in a wider context.  Gazettes and almanacks do the other sort of work better.  A charting of sales position within the article on the album is fine:  that is the context of the information.  That's where the information makes sense, where it expands and explains, but a separate article on just that is, I think, incapable of being encyclopedic.  If the article on the album is too long (and I don't know what "too long" is, except "so long as to be unnavigable"), then the master article needs shortening, or the information on sales needs to be jettisoned.  For example, the Tale of a Tub article is pretty long (longer than the 32Kb).  I could have written on the Digressions and written a lot about them.  There are 7 of them, and they're each worth a research paper or two.  However, I thought that was excessively fine detail.  I do think that we can all let our interests blind us to the needs of readers.  That's what I try to focus on:  the needs of a general reader for information that will adequately explain a topic.  The site isn't for us to express ourselves upon, but rather for readers who wish to consult a reliable encyclopedia.  That's why I consistently vote against minor breakouts, whether they're of sales data on an album or a character from a cartoon.  The point isn't that I have anything against, or for, the information, but rather whether I think the information does any good for readers.  To do some good, it must be needed, must be accessible (and thus Recurring characters in Gundarm season two is useless because it can only be found via a link in another article), must make sense on its own (and thus things like the sales information don't work), and must be encyclopedic by being discursive and adequate.  Again, it's certainly nothing against a particular recording artist, but I think we need to ask when we're expressing our own interests more than we are answering the needs of readers.  Geogre 04:07, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I can't imagine that there will be readers out there who will be grateful that we deleted a bunch of sales and chart info. If you're looking for info on Autobiography, there's a reasonable chance you'd be interested in the sales and chart data too. The odds of that are far higher than satisfying readers with a 5 minute attention span who have contempt for detailed information. For readers like that, to the extent that they even deserve to have their needs met, we have summary style. Everyking 14:10, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Speedy Deletion
Heya, could you undelete Saro? Not being expandable isn't a Criterio for Speedy Deletion. Thanks. --fvw *  05:32, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)
 * It was speedy deleted under criterion #4: extremely short articles without information, e.g. "He is a very funny man who owns a factory." Geogre 15:08, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Strange people
Hi Geogre - Thanks for your comments regarding the Little Englander, regretfully I have to agree with you, the temptation to retort further is enormous, but probably futile. He would probably completely loose it and murder his dog. I am well used to having my grammar and English, and sometimes even views, challenged - but this attack was something new. What is most irksome is he actually appealed for help - perhaps I should have changed my user name to "Fred" to edit so English an article, the other editor was American. However, I don't think that was the problem, he seems to be rude and aggressive to most correspondents on his page. He made the comment he could have written that page aged 14 - I suspect he may have been looking to the future. Thanks for the advice I will heed it. Giano 07:45, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Hi Geogre, what do I do now? he is now blaming me for his mistakes on his talk page, and deleting polite if terse responses from me. Giano 16:13, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Oh don't worry about it, it's New Year's Eve, and there are better things to be doing tonight, so I'm off to do them. Have a great New Year Giano 18:49, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Kolli Keyber
Hi, Geogre, I've revamped Kolli quite a bit, please take a look. The e-text of Cibber's Apology is a fine careful 19th-c edition, with a useful editorial learned-sounding account of various matters in an extra "chapter" at the end of Vol 2 (sic! very odd place for it), so a person doesn't have to read the whole Apology (can't bear the thought of doing that) to figure out stuff. I have concluded that Pope was a good deal more the aggressor than your account suggests, that's why I've changed some details. Just to complicate matters, also, Kolli wrote some things in a 1742 pamphlet instead of keeping them neatly in the 1740 Apology. Not that that makes a difference, it was still published between the Dunciad B and the 4-book Dunciad, it's just something that makes the narrative less neat, unfortunately, as the article was already boring enough. A lot of people are jumping in and doing little edits in my Anne Bracegirdle, on account of it's on DYK on the Main Page. It's a nothing piece, I only made it to get rid of the annoying redlinks, but apparently people do read the Main Page, can't think why (I never do), and even click on what they see there. Hope all is well.--Bishonen | Talk 16:25, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear: are we sure that CC's letter was prior to the publication of Bk IV as a stand-alone poem? I don't want to say it wasn't if it was, and I don't mind having that changed, but Pope says that it was written privately to complain of his treatment in Bk IV, when it was published in 1742.  If it was written in response to Arbuthnot, or if it predates the solo Bk IV, then Cibber is more innocent than we think.  However, Pope really does generally attack him as a disease rather than a man most of the time, so I'm not sure that CC's is either innocent or guilty -- he merely was.  That said, Pope very often was the first to hurl a turd.  Dennis had done nothing to Pope except praise someone that Pope didn't like and fail to mention Pope's own pastorals, and for that he became the epitome of bad critics in the Essay on Criticism.  It wouldn't surprise me to see Pope being petty and personal at all.  I just thought the letter was a counter-attack to the already-determined Dunciad B.  I may well be wrong, because Pope does lie sometimes. Geogre 17:03, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Don't know. I forgot all about the stand-alone Bk 4. Howe quotes a longer version of the brothel anecdote--it's most tasteful--in the "extra chapter" I mention above, and calls Cibber's reference to Arbuthnot an "excuse". Lemme see, Howe's bibliography... right. The letter's dated 1742, that's all. Then there's another "occasional letter" (anonymous, but Howe is sure it's by Cibber), dated 1743, which is all about rebutting Ciber's elevation in the Dunciad. Please check it out yourself if you've got time--the bibliography comes at the end of the "extra chapter". I suppose the existence of the 1743 letter argues somewhat against Colley having been stung into the 1742 letter by the Dunciad thing. I dunno. I hope we'll be able to keep it somewhat simple and not go into the pamphlet wars any too deeply. Maybe we can elide the whole chronology problem and put something simpler? (I've already done that kind of thing in many places.) Geogre? Could you check the spelling, please? I want it to be consistently as American as possible, to leave no loophole for the Little Englanders to roll in and change it. It's not natural to me to write theater--my fingers automatically do something else--and I've never bothered to learn what exactly the differences are supposed to be, either, so it would be good if you'd look.--Bishonen | Talk 17:40, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Ok. How about how I've left it now?  I just put in "Pope's version of the story is..." and not attempted to give a definite answer.  I did put it after Cibber's version of the story, but it's not meant to be an answer.  At any rate, I'll look for Anglicisms.  I did read the letter.  It was either prefixed or appended to an edition of the Apology we had in the departmental library at UNC.  That's why I knew the story.  Cibber's telling of the brothel anecdote is charming, so it's easy to miss how awful it was.  You'd have to think about how intensely, really intensely, private Pope was about sex and indulge in a little speculation on how much of a gaping wound women had to be in his ego.  Being a misshapen dwarf in that era couldn't have been good for his chances with the ladies.  While Pope will talk about lots of things, he is really quite squeamish about bodies.  (People always talk about Swift's body revulsion, but that's because he talks about stinking bodies.  Pope, I think, had a more serious case, because he never speaks of them.)  Anyway, what's really most interesting to me is that Bk IV really doesn't attack Cibber.  The new attacks on Cibber the man are in Bk I, and they're few (the reference to Colley's "brainless brothers" at Bedlam, e.g.).  I'll scan the article for continental graphology.  Geogre 04:13, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Yes, fine. I have now turned the article from shortish and incoherent into long and boring, please tighten if possible. I have a general problem with it: the important things, that are, theoretically, too short (Kålli as manager) are so dull that I can't face reading up on them, while the to me attractively absurd stuff (Kålli the actor, the Steinkirk scene) is only tenuously relevant and ought to be slashed. You do the slashing, please. Be ruthless. Happy new year (in 40 minutes here!)!--Bishonen | Talk 22:21, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yopu and the journal...
While an article in an online-only journal wouldn't be worth all that much, the absence of that article highly significant to me! If Tteexx had bothered to construct a hoax website wouldn't he have bothered to put information supporting his hoax on the website? The website/journal is also associated with a Yahoo group. The group has seventeen members, which would require energetic sockpuppetry. (My membership in the group, and my query re the Yopu article, are both pending, awaiting moderator's approval).

Searches in the message archive, which contains 115 messages, for "Yopu" and "Yopumundi" and "Lewinski" and "Manes" yield no hits.

I think the journal and the group are real, though not very impressive. The absence of any reference to the alleged legend or to the authors of the alleged paper speak volumes. Dpbsmith (talk) 00:36, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * I absolutely agree. I didn't really want to suggest that the journal had to be a fake, but only that it could be.  More to the point, an online journal with a subscriber (and, probably, contributor) base of 17 is simply not credible.  It sounds almost as if this were a vanity journal based on a forum that Tteexx got kicked out of!  When you can't make it in a forum like that, something is really up.  I own a domain.  Perhaps I'll set up Proceedings of the International Society for the Abolition of Hemingway.  After all, my buddies formed the ISAH back in grad school, and other people have mistaken it as serious, so why not have a Proceedings journal?  It's more credible than some of the titles I've seen proferred as "verification" on VfD.  Geogre 14:35, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Request for comment
Hi, Wet, Geogre, and Giano, please excuse a three-person multi-user message or microspam. In case you made a New Year's resolution to help the harrassed, I just thought you might want to redeem it by taking a look at Requests for comment/Chan Han Xiang and, less importantly, Chan Han Xiang's retaliatory RfC Requests for comment/Gtabary. I don't know the principals, never had speech with or saw them around (maybe Geogre did on VfD) but it's not getting a lot of attention--a little more after I asked dab to take a look this morning (European morning)--and I can't help but feel sorry for the guy who tried to help a countryman and fell through into the fourth dimension. We all know what even much milder cases of that feel like, and this user doesn't seem to have much of a wiki support network. Well, that's how it looks to me, but you'll form your own opinion, if you should feel like making this your good deed of the day. Best wishes,--Bishonen | Talk 15:27, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Geogre, Help!
George-

You were of help to me before with a wiki-issue, and I need your help again. can we private email about something? I have a wiki stalker and I need some help.

Stude62

Geogre, Help!
George-

You were of help to me before with a wiki-issue, and I need your help again. can we private email about something? I have a wiki stalker and I need some help.

Stude62

Uncle Remus
Geogre, While I realize that you have a firm touch with these things, and you sanctioned this, I question the POV. Please take a look at my notes on the talk page. Many thanks. newbie allie 02:08, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I did? Are you referring to the article on Uncle Remus?  I certainly don't recall having any interaction with the article before.  Please give me an idea of what the issue is so that I can investigate and, if I have been in error, moderate my position.  (I'm not a huge Joel Chandler Harris fan, but he was regarded in his own day as the superior to even Twain, with whom he was friends.)  Geogre 02:52, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Talk:Aphra Behn
I know it has been some time since you made the comment on this article, but I have only just come across it. Your comment is, to the best of my knowledge, perfectly accurate, and I have added what I know about the creation of these myths surrounding Behn's life to it. Behn's article definitely needs editing to reflect the highly dubious nature of her life story; unfortunately I am not sure how to best do this. I was wondering if you have any suggestions. Rje 00:48, Jan 21, 2005 (UTC)


 * The best way forward, that I can think of, is to strip away all questionable stuff. It would be better to have too little to say than a lie.  That, though, is purely a bandage.  The real progress will be made by someone reading one of the out of date but non-controversial biographies.  I think Maureen Duffy's The Passionate Shepherdess is the closest there is to an old cornerstone of Behn scholarship.  Yes, there are things being questioned about its account, but it was the first scholarly renewed biography.  (As I recall, the scholar you noted in your talk page comment, didn't really offer up a true life, but merely point out the weak biographies that have been the basis of current accounts.  I.e. he showed the weaknesses, but he didn't provide any cement to fix them.)  I'm now living in the middle of Nowhere.  There is a public library, and I will get them to get the Duffy book.  I'll be happy to read it and work over the article, but it's going to be difficult to keep folks from getting trigger happy with theory.  I suppose they haven't yet, so perhaps that's not a real danger in the future. Geogre 13:35, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Colley Cibber
Geogre, in case you have any plans for editing Colley Cibber, PRiis was kind enough to give it a read and a comment, at my request. You can see what he wrote here, and a further exchange here. (Scroll up just a little there to see my original request.) He makes very good points, I thought--being a fresh reader, he probably has a better perspective on the whole than you and me--I guess the article does fall into two pretty disparate parts. You want to work on unifying it? Later, maybe? Or do you think I should? Bishonen | Talk 15:16, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * I saw. The problem, I think, is that there is no solution to the problem.  It's hard for anyone outside of the field to know to what degree this guy just plain doesn't exist without Pope.  I agree that the level of detail increases greatly, that it is almost like the biography is an excuse to get to the Popery.  The disjunction is quite clear, and I agree that it's jarring.  I'm not sure, though, that it can ever be much different.  I don't mind working on it.  I'll grab the article into a text editor and see if I can do any blending tomorrow.  ("Why are you spending so much time all alone?  Why don't you come sit in front of the TV?")  Geogre 03:29, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hey, Geogre. It's Wolfj. I have finally seen the err in my ways. I have joined Simple English Wikipedia and am a good member there. I have been vandalized, and I'm as angry as you were at me, maybe more! I'm done with this Wikipedia. Tell postdlf that I'm gone, but he can still see me at Simple English.

Jamie Wingo
Hi geogre. I noticed the anon editor who created Jamie Wingo improved the article somewhat since I listed it on VfD. I was in the process of removing the VfD (the only vote was keep) when you voted delete. I have since restored the VfD notices and listing since there is now disagreement over whether the page should be kept. - Mark 13:59, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that. My problem has been with the idea of all pornographic actors, and not this particular one or any given genre.  It seems to me that we chase the horizon if we begin this and that we need, instead, to subject such performers to the same standards as any other.  Is the actor notable within the field?  In the past, I have been a delete-voter on new and popular (but not significant in the field) actresses of all stripes.  I appreciate your restoration of the notices.  I may well be out-voted, but my standards are consistent. Geogre 14:04, 30 Jan 2005 (UTC)

VfD
Hello Geogre. I cannot help but notice that your ubiquitous presence on the VfD page has become something quite shy of ubiquitous. Your presence is missed. Diligent participants and intelligent discourse are wanting, and I am baffled by the voting of many ("KEEP!...even listed at Filmbug", what kind of vote is that?). Duty calls. -R. fiend 22:58, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Jonathan Wild
I thought I detected your hand. Now with a host of collaborators. Excellent tale. Too good for a Featured Article. --Wetman 08:05, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Nice to see JW where he belongs. Filiocht 09:06, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)


 * Thanks, y'all. Yep.  If it's 18th c. and related to satire, I'm usually not far away from it.  Big help came from Bishonen, too, who sent me the hard-to-find Howson biography.  I've written (in other lifetimes) on Fielding's novel Jonathan Wild before, so I've always been interested in the guy.  The collaborators....  Well, most are unobjectionable.  Some are helpful.  A few are reverted by other collaborators.  There's nothing like getting on the main page to suddenly attract a lot of editing.  Geogre 16:10, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ouch!
Ouch! Got prematurely FAC'd again, this time while still in userspace! Geogre, neither Giano nor I really have any chance to be at our computers today, which is a bit of a shame. Go vote for the art objects for featured article before Raul shifts them!--Bishonen | Talk 14:16, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

None too soon
..that you turned up, Geogre! Did you see my talk-page request for some Icelandic tph input from you? (Look at the TOC). Bishonen | Talk 13:33, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Thanks
A quick thanks for voting me to adminship. utcursch 08:28, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC)

The Cantos
Thank you for your vote on WP:FAC, praise is always welcome. Good luck with the Dunciad. Filiocht 08:56, Mar 1, 2005 (UTC)

Help
Hi Geogre, urgent help required please see email. We will be indebted to you for ever Giano 21:59, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hope it helps. Basically, free markets and Keynesianism at battle. Do you start federal projects to employ the unemployed, or do you try to make the markets nice for corporations to grow so that they'll hire people? That was the question before the people. Hoover wanted to encourage private sector growth and hope, and Roosevelt wanted to hire the people straight out and tell corporations that they had to start playing fair. Geogre 02:02, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC) Thanks emailed you a few minutes ago. Problem is when I was at school, that was not considered history, which is very worrying indeed. Giano 09:40, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * That was really great, now transformed into a "Campaign speech for Roosevelt" Bambino delle mafie is happy! and selling email for £1 a copy to classmates! Giano 21:11, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The Royal Slave
Stumbled on a mention of a university play from 1636 called The Royal Slave here. Hmmm. I suppose it wouldn't by any chance be a source? Does Todd mention it? But it's most likely just some the-princess-in-the-harem story adapted from a Greek romance of the 5th century, or whatever. Lit hist is the cruftiest subject in the world.Bishonen | Talk 09:07, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * She doesn't. I can't tell from the article, but he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to have provided an antecedent, since that looks like a seriously coterie play.
 * BTW, the tree you're looking for is Quercus virginiana. Height is 12-15 m, diameter is .6-1.2 m.  "Popular shade tree in the southeast, where it attains very large size."  The height and diameters given by the book I'm using seem ridiculously small, but I'm in the southeast, where they attain very large sizes.  Geogre 01:12, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * This is only a fair picture of one. It's in Florida, where they don't get the real thing, but it's in Tallahassee, which is close to Georgia. Geogre 01:18, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

When thou hast Donne
Cool! It looks really good. I've taken a quick look, will read properly at the weekend. (Classes tomorrow, early morning train.) What do you think of this one, that I uploaded a while back? It's supposed to be a sketch by the NPG curator after a lost original. I have no faith in that--it looks totally different from all extant bona fide portraits of her--I think the curator might have been in second childhood or something--but still, it looks good, doesn't it! Sorry I hadn't noticed your tree info above, btw, I wasn't watching your page for messages to me (thought you didn't want us to use it for non-wiki communication.) Have you seen my Harcourt=Kynaston, at the Country Wife page? And have you ever gotten a weird feeling, looking for something via Google, getting a nice promising hit list, and then gradually realizing that you wrote most of it yourself? ;-) A natural consequence of all the mirror sites, of course. Bishonen | Talk 23:27, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * WOW! That's a TREE! Bishonen | Talk 23:51, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Big tree, alright, but the ones near here are sometimes bigger. I saw the Aphra Behn you uploaded, and it looks quite like the same person as in the portrait I found, only turned more to face the viewer. It's good, because it's definitely from her time as the toast of the theater, too. I've looked at your Country Wife indeed. I liked it a lot. (I've definitely seen myself in Google when I was looking for more facts on one of my articles. I have a feeling that you will dominate "Vanbrugh" searches by now.)  I was quite freaked out by some of the near misses of my language in some articles, too. Apparently, there are mirrors, and then there are copies with user input -- other Wikis or something -- because it was essentially me, but chopped down and with irrelevancies added. Odd, that. Geogre 02:00, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Dogs goopy eyes
My mostly-brown dog has started having goopy eyes since just before he turned 13. There's an ointment from the vet that seems to make it go away, but I let it slide and now even he has dark streaks on his dark face. It's always something. Elf | Talk 04:58, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Don't wonder
Don't wonder, come to IRC. Bishonen | Talk 23:06, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank You! from Carbonite
Thank you for supporting my RfA. I very much appreciate your confidence in me. Please let me know if you see something I should (or shouldn't) be doing as an admin. Regards, Patrick. Carbonite | Talk 13:52, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oops.
Hi Georgre... Thanks for your comment on my page. I only read it just now, when Bishonen pointed out that I had deleted a post from you and a post from her without comment. I don't remember doing that! And I only saw yours just now when I went back and looked at History. I'm sure the deletion seemed rude to you if you noticed it; it was unintentional. Regards, BradGad (Talk) 13:50, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you
Hey Geogre, thanks for voting for me in my adminship nomination. I very much appreciate your support. Best, SlimVirgin 03:35, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC) P.S. I love the look of your dog.
 * No problem. I don't check RfA enough, but your edits and demeanor have been reasonable and entirely sane.  That's too rare anywhere, and perhaps especially on Wikipedia.  (Doggy going to the vet tomorrow, so maybe the vet will get out the anti-eye-goop and I'll take a better photo of the dear.)  Thanks again for the attentive and careful read-through of Oroonoko.  Getting anyone at all to read a "high culture" article is rare.  Getting someone to read it carefully is priceless. Geogre 04:38, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Oroonoko
Congratulations on the FA status. Filiocht 08:34, Mar 24, 2005 (UTC)
 * Ah. It made it, then.  Thanks, Filiocht.  My next huge FA project will probably be Aphra Behn, but that's got to wait.  I won't even think of trying to beef up Dunciad.  I haven't finished it yet, for one thing, and there's no way the voters would go for it.  Geogre 13:59, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

KevinBot speedy deletes
Please stop deleting these. There's a problem. -- Derek Ross | Talk 03:57, Mar 25, 2005 (UTC)

MLA
Thanks for the further explanation of MLA referencing. It is always warming to have a stalker. I was not surprised to see your allegiance to Chapel Hill on your user page (a truly impressive creation, incidentally), given the snipe at Duke. I spent a while in Cary NC in the mid-nineties; The big event was the change of Bulls ballpark. --Theo (Talk) 11:38, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Beat on the Brat (with a baseball bat)
Glad to help. I actually read all the way thru it, but I must admit that, other than the sentence I tweaked, I think all other massaging came from throwing the text into a word-processor, and letting its spellcheck function find possible problems-once you're talking that much text, I can't imagine trying to do it entirely manually. I would appreciate it if you could take a gander at Apollo 8, and weigh in at Featured article candidates/Apollo 8. I am not asking for a blind support vote--if you see anything lacking, please mention it. It's just that Raul has promoted the much more recently nominated Kibbutz, despite outstanding objections (to its size), but left the voting open on Apollo 8, so I have to assume it's for lack of votes. User:Evil Monkey has continued to address my comments, even after I changed my vote from 'comment' to 'support', which to me indicates a motivation to make the article the best it can be, rather than simply to get an FA under his belt. Niteowlneils 14:12, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

DYK
 Did you know has been updated and a fact from the article Rupert of Salzburg, which you recently created, has been featured in that section on the Main Page. If you have another interesting fact to submit, then please suggest it at the section's talk page.

ETPH
Hey, Geogre, don't strain those eye muscles... and please breathe deeply to settle your nausea. It is just ones and zeroes. A sad combination of them, but ones and zeroes, nevertheless. --Theo (Talk) 20:52, 31 Mar 2005 (UTC)

From Georgia, eh?
I grew up in Baxley, so I feel your pain about living in South Georgia. You did say you live in Vidalia now, right?--Txredcoat 12:01, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * Yep, I'm in Vidalia now. It's ... interesting.  The culture shock from New York City has been kind of toxic, but it's not the worst town around here to be in.  It's a pleasant place, but, well, I kind of miss libraries, stores, and Democrats. Geogre 13:51, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Big fat cock
It was kind of funny, and I'm glad my talk page didn't actually go away. (It needs but a bull to be complete.) Geogre 19:29, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)