User:Giano/Something I may need

Has David Gerard finally flipped?
Jimbo, you seem to know the person well so perhaps you might like to comment on DG's block of Giano. Is there a belief among certain long established account holders that writing quality articles is the basis of bad hand accounts, or is it simply that holding views contrary to some long established accounts sufficient? Oh, and DG stepping up as the enacting blocker might appear to some as inappropriate - given a past ArbCom where said admin was a party bitterly complained of and against Giano. All this right at the start of the ArbCom elections, too - is there not enough potential drama among the list of candidates and their reasons for standing? LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I think it best that I not publicly comment at this time on the underlying issue. Perhaps I will in a few days, if it becomes necessary for some reason, but at the present time this all looks pretty routine to me.  However, I will say that I doubt very much that you will find anyone who will argue or even suggest that Giano's quality contributions are the problem, and so the form of your question doesn't lend itself very well to a helpful answer.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 12:56, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * "confirmed and reviewed by multiple checkusers" I want the name of every single one of these people and I want everyone of them fired. Giano (talk) 00:13, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, right, I want to be Judy Garland, but it ain't gonna happen. -- Rodhull andemu  00:15, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Why would ya wanna be Judy Garland? She hasn't been too healthy since 1969. GoodDay (talk) 22:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Neither have I. -- Rodhull andemu  22:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You want to be a starlet who was depressed, addicted to prescription drugs, divorced four times, attempted suicide on numerous occasions before finally dying at 47 of a drug overdose? Erik the Red  2    02:47, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop going on about her good points, already! -- Rodhull andemu  22:37, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, knowing this Arbcom's snse of justice you are probably right, but let's just see how many of the are brave enough to admit it first. Giano (talk) 00:17, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The reasom given for checkusering me was that they there was similarities between Lady C's edits and those of a terrible banned editor. I have now checked those edits to claim any similarity is a blatent lie. There are no similarities what-so-ever. If it were not such an abuse of power, the encyclopedia would die laughing, if they knew which banned editor it was. Gerard should be fired instantly. Giano (talk) 18:18, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Giano, to forestall future drama and turmoil, would you commit to using only one account in the future? ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 18:34, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I want to know what similarities there were between Lady C's edits and that of "???? ?????" When I am shown themm then we will look to the future, as long as Gerard is allowed to perform checkusers, and involve the gullible, to satisfy his own curiousity then none of are secure here, He has abused his powers and must go. He has been 100% dishonest. Giano (talk) 18:36, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Has Gerard been fired yet? or we taking this to another level? Giano (talk) 22:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Giano, why did you create that account in the first place? Did you really think that it was legitimate to run a sock account for ArbCom? It seems to me that David did the community a service by revealing a hoax. It would have been better if "Lady C" had never been created. Whose responsibility was that?   ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 01:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, come on! David did not reveal a hoax, he reconfirmed a hoax! It was clear, even to those who did not know it was Giano, that it was a sock account having a dig at the process. There was no need to do anything apart from have a quiet word via email, or even via the talk page. Use of checkuser and blocking tools was excessive. GTD 01:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Please read WP:POINT. It's explicitly against the rules to disrupt Wikipedia in order to illustrate a point. If Giano wanted to make a point he should have written an essay. The blame for all of this is squarely on his shoulders. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 01:51, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * On the contrary, David Gerard's block of Giano was clearly more pointy as the alternate account was an open secret. There was no way, under any circumstances, that the alternate account would have been considered to be a serious ArbCom candidate. David Gerard's direct actions went against the spirit of Wikipedia GTD 01:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * An "open secret" is still a secret. "Lady C" was asked directly if she was a sock and denied it. Why run a sock of ArbCom, especially if there's no chance of winning? Why waste the time of folks who weren't in on the secret, leaving them wondering what the heck is going on? Things like that bring disrepute to the project, just like the last ArbCom member who pretended to be something he wasn't. Let's just write an encyclopedia and leave the made-up characters with funny voices to other websites. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 02:03, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with your last sentence entirely. Let's leave that all to have their own fun elsewhere. Let's have legally-accountable, qualifications-verifiable, named users to create the best encyclopedia on the planet. That's what I want. But, until that happens, who's to say what jokes can and can't go on? GTD 02:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This isn't a social networking site, it isn't intended to be fun, though a little fun isn't a problem. But Giano stepped over the line in running an undisclosed sock for ArbCom. Posting an Aprils Fools hoax on April 1 is one thing. Posting a similar hoax on other occasions is another matter. And getting upset when that hoax is deleted just shows no sense of humor at all. Giano had his laugh now let's move on with the purpose of this project. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 02:14, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So you'll join me in banning all minors and demanding all remaining editors use their own names, post their addresses and credentials? Great! Deal! GTD 02:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The obvious reply: Will Beback is a real name . Is George the Dragon a real name?  Durova Charge! 02:28, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * no biggie, but isn't Will Beback a pun / pseudonym? - If not then the Beback parents were kinda cruel, to be honest! Privatemusings (talk) 02:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Joke or not, I haven't seen Will demand other editors relinquish their privacy. The gracious thing is to show as much or more respect for the privacy of other people than one attempts to requisition for oneself.  With a name like Privatemusings, that sort of explanation shouldn't be necessary.  Durova Charge! 02:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

[Outdent] George, there's a big difference between requiring proven identities and allowing disruptive socks. If you think that socks should be allowed to run for ArbCom or admin or should be allowed for banned users, then I encourage you to answer the questions about those matter on your ArbCom candidacy page. Some of us spend a lot of time trying to get rid of disruptive socks. I don't think it's very funny when a supposedly good editor uses one to mess with the system and then throws a hissy fit when it's blocked. If it's a joke account then there's no need to mourn its loss, and there's certainly no reason to form a mob to attack the responsible person who brought the hoax to a close. David Gerard did the right thing (albeit in a clumsy way) and harmed no one's privacy in the process. Now let's get back to writing the encyclopedia. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 03:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No, we won't untill gerard is prevented from doing this again - it goes on. He has no right too invade privacy, none at all. What next excuse? He had to be fired. Oh yeah, and let's have a diff for: " "Lady C" was asked directly if she was a sock and denied it." Giano (talk) 07:22, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll give you two:
 * Major Bonkers: "Aren't you a sockpuppet?"
 * Catherine de Burgh: "No, no, barking up the wrong tree there."


 * Major Bonkers: "Aren't you still a sockpuppet?"
 * Catherine de Burgh: "I'm certainly not a Sockpocket."
 * But then again, we already know that you are not adverse to peddling the odd mistruth two when it suits you, isn't that right Giano? Rockpock  e  t  18:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * and here is one for you Rockpocket. You see Jimbo and the Arbcom have been terrified I had an admin account and had breached IRC Security, that is what I expect half of this is all about, any excuse to find out, and why gerard has not been punished, he was trying to do them a favour. I don't have a sock Admin account, I never have and I never will, for the reasons given in that diff. Giano (talk) 18:41, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Giano, you asked for diffs about when you denied running a sock account. Rockpocket provided two and here's a third. I've asked you repeatedly to either disclose your other sock accounts or to stop using them. Nothing good comes from this deception.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 19:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * There are no others. That is a sterile line of inquiry. Thatcher 20:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Beback, you are a very very sad man, I pity you, truly I do. Without humour one may as well be dead, and we are an awfully long time dead, I know one should never laugh at one's own jokes, so I won't, but was there a deal of harm? For some leather bound tool of the arbcom to come in hot and viscious pursuit - No, I think not - and so do most of the "normal" editors' - it's a hoot, get real, get over it. Giano (talk) 20:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Please don't make personal attacks on your colleagues. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 20:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Beback, are you seriously suugesting you and Gerard are colleagues? You're not, no one would regard you as such - what an amazing notion, where can you posibly have obtained it? Giano (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * For what its worth, I would think it would be patently obvious that you would never try something like that, since it would only be a matter of time before that was revealed. The point is though Giano, and I appreciate it may not feel like it sometimes, but 99% of those people who edit Wikipedia do not read your talk page and do not follow your wiki-career. That includes a good number of admins and CUs. I do, and I still missed that edit. Therefore its unreasonable to expect that everyone is familiar with all the twists and turns of Giano's wiki-activities. Whether your accusations are true or not, I don't know. But by using CdB in the manner you did, it was only a matter of time before you were CU'd by someone not in on the elaborate joke. You have a right to be upset about being blocked, but your outrage over being checkusered is misplaced. Even if it was done with ulterior motives, you set yourself up by using CdB without being completely open about who she is. I, too, operate an undisclosed sockpuppet account (albeit one that is scrupulously clean and policy compliant), but if someone has any suspicion over it, I would expect to be CU'd. Big deal. If you don't want to risk that, then don't use multiple accounts. Rockpock  e  t  19:31, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

This problem with Gerard should have been handled long ago. In fact, I was going to use him as an example in a question to all candidates (but that page seems to be protected now). So, in the light of the current arbcom elections, let me ask it here;

Imagine a powerful administrator who wants to silence some political opposition. He enters into an edit war on a Wikipedia project page and censors all criticism of his pet cause. He then protects the page on his version and even threatens to move it to Meta where he can more effectively control the content. The criticism he removed was civil and came from administrators and long time contributors.

It goes to the arbcom and parties present their cases in the usual way, except this admin who presents his case behind closed doors, in complete secrecy. None of the other parties can see or respond to what he says. Furthermore, he's on the arbcom mailing list by virtue of his previous arbitratorship, and is therefore 'in the room' as the arbitrators discuss and decide the case.

He walks away with no consequences for his behavior.

What do you all think about this? Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/IRC ?

--Duk 17:35, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You can still ask questions individually of any or all potential arbitrators. Wily D 17:49, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * In hind sight I think It's more effective to ask in places where it will actually be read by more than just the candidate. --Duk 17:59, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Hell ya! secrecy and censorship, that's the way to run a project like this. --Duk 18:07, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, otherwise people miss things like J Forrester refusing to answer if he will accept an appointment from Jimbo against the will of the people! Good job no constitutional monarch would ever offer such a position. Tough luck James. Giano (talk) 18:23, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Monarchs have absolute power until they actually try to use it.  Pissing off the nobles or the peasants will eventually be any monarch's downfall. Thatcher 20:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * All this Giano VS ArbCom stuff is entertaining; distracting, but entertaining. Thank goodness the Lady C account is deleted. GoodDay (talk) 22:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Oops, it's not deleted. I spoke too soon. GoodDay (talk) 23:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)


 * So, David Gerard has not finally flipped? Which, given that he knew that Giano and CdB were the same editor some 2 years (should I say here that I didn't know? but then I didn't care who CdB was as long as I didn't have to deal with "her") means that the purpose of the CU was to see if Giano - "exposed" through the CdB connection - was operating a vandal account. No wonder DG blocked both with exceedingly poor rationales; the disappointment must have been excruciating... I truly believe, Jimbo, that some of those entrusted with responsibilities from the earlier days of this project do need reviewing to see if their use of those abilities are in tune with the standards expected in the situations we now find ourselves in. Some people are adaptable and realise that status necessarily changes as situations change, and some are not and are less capable of serving the purpose in the manner in which they were originally entrusted. There is no mechanism to remove these people from the offices bestowed upon them - except by appeal to those who presented them with such powers and still have the ability to remove them. Perhaps it is time, as sometimes can happen to admins and is happening to some members of ArbCom, that CU's are required after some period of service to demonstrate that their use of the tools has the confidence of the community and their colleagues? The trust required of sysops, bureaucrat, and ArbCom members from the community is understood, because of the potential damage those positions may cause; perhaps it is more so for CU's - as events may have demonstrated here. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:02, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * All those words about the importance of trust in the ArbCom, etc., would make more sense if this weren't a case in which a sockpuppet had been nominated for ArbCom. How would having a lying sock on the ArbCom help build the community's trust? ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 23:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Lying? You mean she wasn't married four times, proposed to by Mussolini, and the daughter of Phimosis Bonkbuster? 86.44.30.104 (talk) 03:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I mean that the editor, speaking through the sock account, repeatedly denied that the account was a sock. Again, how did running this account for ArbCom serve to help build trust for the ArbCom and other community institutions?  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 05:52, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nope not at all, not only had I announced here she was running but also the Arbs with Arbs - so you and Gerard donot have a leg to stand on. He needs to be fired, and I wil not be deflected in this. he cannot treat people like this, and he willnot Giano (talk) 07:23, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * [e/c] Giano, I don't know why you chose to lie about being a sock, but you did. I don't know why you chose to run that sock for ArbCom, but you did. The sock was not disclosed to the community, and you used it disruptively. You used it to add derogatory material to a BLP among other things. You were caught and the sock was blocked. You were the one at fault. You have no cause for being mad at those who ended the charade. Get over it. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 07:35, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I admit to being bewildered by this. It was obvious that Lady Catherine was an ironic sockpuppet. It was obvious to anyone who looked at the contribs for more than a few seconds that it was Giano. (Who else can write like that? And indeed, who else would lavish such praise on him?) In any event, David G knew that it was Giano. So why was there a need to checkuser and block? Why not just get someone neutral to drop him an e-mail saying the joke has gone far enough, if someone thought it had, though for my own part, it was the only thing on Wikipedia or anywhere else at the moment that was able to make me laugh out loud. I'm going to miss her. SlimVirgin  talk| edits 07:29, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * SV, Giano could easily have acknowledged the sock without ruining the joke. He didn't need to run it for ArbCom, or use it to make inappropriate edits in order to be funny. Jokes are one thing, but this went too far. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 07:37, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You are still not getting it are you, or don't you want to get it. It was not a secret, and Gerard knew it was not a secret. He must not be allowed to abuse his wrongly given powers in this way, on any one else in futire. Giano (talk) 08:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Giano, that "disclosure" didn't include the name of the sock, and it wasn't posted on the sock's user page, Only someone who already knew the sock was yours would have been able to find that posting and have known to whom it referred. And it was archived about 10 days later, so even someone with that information couldn't have found it by mid-October. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 08:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm with Will on this one. What is this adding to the encyclopedia, one has to ask. --John (talk) 07:43, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Will and John, putting aside whether the joke had gone too far, or whether the contribs were helpful, the person who blocked already knew that Lady C was Giano. So the question is: why the checkuser? SlimVirgin  talk| edits 08:32, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Obviously, any admin who thinks they can simply block Giano, even for obvious policy or probation violations, isn't aware of history. But that doesn't excuse Giano's behavior, or permit him to go on a vengeance trip, or grant him leave to violate his civilty probation (which he's now doing). As for what David Gerard knew and when, we haven't heard it from him. I know that I deal with so many socks and problem editors that I sometimes have trouble remembering them six months later. Even if DG identified the sock, it doesn't follow that he necessarily remembered it two years later. Can you remember the identity of every sock you investigated two years ago? Giano seems to be of the opinion that all Wikipedia editors and admins have his talk page watchlisted and follow his every move and utterance. I had no awareness of "Lady C" until it was placed into the running for ArbCom. At that point, there was no way, short of spending an hour sleuthing, that I would have found it was a sock of Giano. I understand you're sensitive about checkusers, but I still say that people who use undisclosed socks in a disruptive manner should expect to be checkusered and to have the socks blocked. That is why we have checkusers in the first place.  ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 08:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * so are you calling sir Fozzie a liar too . Giano (talk) 09:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * No, I certainly am not calling Sir Fozzie a liar. If Gerard has explained his knowledge of this matter I haven't seen it, but this drama has been spread around to many, many pages. But even if Gerard knew or suspected that the account was yours, the mere fact that he'd found a sock running for ArbCom was enough evidence of bad faith to proceed to a checkuser. Socks should not be on the ArbCom. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 10:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well I do hope there aren't already! Giano (talk) 10:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Granted, your point about socks in general, but checkusers do keep notes about who they've checked and what the results were, so they don't have to remember everything or repeat checks. They're also on the CU mailing list, and can ask around there. I just find it odd that what happened instead was that three CUs had to check Giano/Lady C, after the accounts had been checked already by at least one of the same CUs, plus lots of conferring and consultation, and e-mails to Jimbo and ArbCom and god knows who else, to deal with what was an obvious and hilarious ironic sock being operated by one of WP's best writers. It all seems a bit po-faced and unnecessary, at best. SlimVirgin  talk| edits 09:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Clearly there were some mistakes in how this went down. If Giano hadn't created the fake account, if he'd disclosed it on the sock's userpage or made it transparent, if his selected notifications had been more widespread, if folks had waited another 24 hours, or if everyone were on IRC, then things would have been different. I suggest that Giano should submit a complaint with the Ombudsman committee rather than demanding revenge across a half dozen pages. Let's try to minimize the drama here. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 10:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The Ombudsman committee (basically Mackensen and Rebecca) is not allowed to look into alleged checkuser misuse, only privacy policy violations. That's the problem with this situation. The CUs police themselves, or rather, don't. SlimVirgin  talk| edits 00:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I wasn't aware of that. Perhaps it's time to see about addressing that problem. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 00:51, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I've been trying to get it changed since 2006. I've tried via the Foundation, the ArbCom, and the CU mailing list, but the CUs don't want any restrictions. They currently ignore the Foundation's CU policy, and they check as they see fit, for good reasons, bad reasons, and no reasons. Jimbo openly supports random checks, so there is no one to tell them to stop. The ArbCom and CU list are almost entirely overlapping, so there is no one independent to complain to. In addition, one of the Ombudsmen is Mackensen, who is heavily involved in IRC, where much of the nonsense originates.


 * The Foundation apparently won't let the Ombudsmen enforce the CU policy. When I last broached this with Anthere, when she was chair, she told me she'd had many complaints about checkuser misuse from the English Wikipedia and several others, and she took the issue to the CU mailing list to find out whether the Ombudsmen should start to look into CU policy violations too. She was told that the Ombudsmen themselves don't want that &mdash; as I recall, that was the view of Mackensen, and in my view it's prompted entirely by Mackensen not wanting any further restrictions on CU use.


 * What we need are Ombudsmen who have zero involvement with IRC, who aren't buddies of the people they might be asked to investigate, and who are given checkuser access only in order to investigate complaints, rather than being active CUs themselves. They need to feel no loyalty to the CUs, or to the complainants, so that they can look at the facts without prejudice or political pressure. SlimVirgin  talk| edits 01:03, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * SlimVirgin, please check your facts. I ran the check at the request of Avraham; neither of us was aware of the joke at the time.  I asked Lady C. on her talk page to contact me, and "she" brushed me off.  I then emailed a small number of people who I thought were likely to know whether or not this was in fact an open secret.  I did not email "Arbcom and God knows who else" precisely because I was trying to be careful and discreet. Thatcher 11:57, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Can you say how often and when you've checkusered CdB?


 * According to various posts of yours, you did indeed e-mail lots of people about it, or consult them in some other way. My point about this giant fuss that it's incredibly self-important, and it's this taking of yourself so seriously that triggers the authoritarian, bureaucratic, humourless, irony-free, heavy-handed reaction. I'm reminded of the characters in Solzhenitsyn's novels.


 * Also, Thatcher, please don't refer to me again in your posts, no matter how obliquely. SlimVirgin  talk| edits 00:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What? I don't believe I have referred to you directly or obliquely or in any other way in months.  As far as Catherine de Burgh is concerned, I checked the account in June under circumstances I discussed on the RFAR page as well as the AN subpage, but her edits were too stale so no results were returned even though the request was logged.  I checked again a couple of days ago, and emailed Brad, Jimbo, Avi and David Gerard for consultation. Thatcher 07:22, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * This is going around in circles and I have better things to do, than argue the obvious with you. Obviously, you feel Gerard's behaviour and lies and intmidation can be condoned and excused. Thankfully, 100s of others do not. Hopefully, Jimbo will take this on board. The Ombudsmean is appointd by the foundation, so hardly inspires confidence, probably another friend of Gerards. Now, I have better things to do with my time than tit-for-tat with you. I shall not be returning to this page - you just keep on with the excuses for him. Giano (talk) 10:33, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I think the fault lies with you more than with Gerard. That doesn't mean there isn't fault on his side too. The ArbCom is taking the right approach to this complaint by rejecting it. Let's just move on already. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 11:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Those interested may refer to my (and other arbitrators') comments on the (now-archived) request for arbitration. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The inability or unwillingness of the ArbCom to craft an enforceable civility probation is one of the problems here. The tacit approval of those ArbCom members who knew a sock account was running for ArbCom is disappointing as well. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 04:12, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think we're to blame for the actions of other editors. Also, for the record, I had absolutely no idea that account even existed before all this happened, never mind aware of it being anybody's sockpuppet. --Deskana (talk) 04:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

The economy really sucks...case anyone didn't notice.--MONGO 04:15, 22 November 2008 (UTC)