User:GoddessLSD-XTC/sandbox

Hate, White Supremacists, Holocaust Deniers and Extremists Reliable Sources?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard

In summary: What is the policy on Hate, White Supremacist, Holocaust Denier and Extremists concerning their validity as reliable sources?

Unfortunately, many of these haters, white supremacists and holocaust deniers have Ph.D., masters degrees (like Dr. Butz) and other advanced technical degrees from universities, colleges, technical schools etc... or these haters don't have top degrees, but extensive experience for example in execution technology like Fred Leuchter for instance (who worked in many states rebuilding execution technology and so forth see the movie Mr. Death about Fred Leuchter).

I don't condone these people getting advanced degrees in engineering or getting extensive experience in technology oriented fields, im just mainly concerned about their validity as reliable sources for example. Which came first the Holocaust Denier or the Holocaust Denier getting extensive experience in execution technology and then using that knowledge to claim or realize after extensive forensic study the Holocaust was grossly exaggerated. Holocaust Denial is something I abhor.

I started a conversation in the discussion talk area of the Leuchter Report article on wikipedia about including a link to the actual article the Leuchter Report, a research report which promotes Holocaust Denial. The problem I am having is DougWeller and a number of other editors for emotional and political reasons keep deleting and editing my discussion thread in the Leuchter Report Talk Discussion area preventing me from discussing the links to the actual research article called the Leuchter Report and thus preventing others from discussing it as well.

They also keep deleting the link to the Leuchter Report from the Leuchter report article because of hurtful feelings, sensitive political and emotional reasons, and I was wondering what the policy is on Reliable sources and can someones feelings or emotions be a reason to prevent such a link from an article. I make no personal attacks against the deleters, just their statements came off as very empty, hollow, lacking in merit and substance.

When I add the link to the actual Leuchter Research Report by Execution Technician Fred Leuchter to the actual Leuchter Report Article on wikipedia, User:DougWeller, User:RCS, User:WilliamH, User:jpgordon and a number of other editors keep deleting or arguing against the links, saying WP is not a directory of hate links, well I only added 1 or 2 links, as an argument against that, then they change the reason and say something along the lines Hate Sites links are not allowed on wikipedia or that you can't link to hate sites, Then I say there is no policy on linking to hate sites on a hate article. They then say / elude to hate sites are not valid and reliable sources, not notable, not good sources, one even said because of fears these links might convert people into neo-nazies by making it easy for them or make it to easy for people to find information on hate sites which arent considered valid or reliable they elude to. To restate they would rather people have to take the extra step and go to google to find the actual Leuchter Report, they dont want it easy for people to find the information.

I'm not suggesting we use references links from hate sites as sources or references for the mainstream version of the Holocaust, im just suggesting there should be a link to the Leuchter Report from the Leuchter Report Article on wikipedia and I keep meeting with emotionalism, politics, pseudo intellectual red herrings like the Hitler card or hate card. I make no personal attacks towards these editors User:DougWeller, User:RCS, User:WilliamH, User:jpgordon, my criticism is on their reasons and behavior - not the people themselves. Infact, I think these editors are very nice people in general, and their heart is in Wikipedia, I just find the emotionalism Politics to be against wikipedia neutrality and lacking in any kind of substance, but other than that: User:DougWeller, User:RCS, User:WilliamH, User:jpgordon are really really nice people with good hearts.

I do not in anyway shape or form support these hate sites, I just think on a hate article, there should be a link to the original source.

So what is the policy on hate sites? What is the policy on linking to hate sites? Is it not allowed on Wikipedia? What is the policy on hate references? etc.. etc..

Is there an administrator who can put their hatred of nazis (a hatred I share) aside, and look at this from a neutral stand point and help give me some clarity?

Markacohen (talk) 13:04, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Forum shopping. This can also be found at and . It would be nice to keep the discussion at one place. And despite what Markacohen says above, a link to the Leucter report was added to the article on the 23rd, just not one of the links to hate sites that Markacohen wants and is placing on other articles, eg . Dougweller (talk) 14:09, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, although he has raised the issue again in the last hour at Editor assistance, he was referred here a couple of days ago. But since his post again, he's raised it also here: along with a complaint about my converting a raw url by removing the http:// (on a discussion page, here's the diff . Dougweller (talk) 14:30, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * To answer his question... there are several policy and guidelines that cover this topic... Reliable sources... Verifiability... and WP:Fringe theories come imediately to mind. We can talk about them and their views where appropriate (ie in topics where their viewpoint is notable), but we do not want to give such views more coverage than they deserve (Per WP:UNDUE)... essentially, citing such sources should be limited to articles about the groups themselves, or general articles about such things as racism or holocaust denial (where their view point is the major topic of discussion). Blueboar (talk) 14:48, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Rarely even then; keep in mind that the purpose of holocaust denial is to perpetuate a lie; thus, a holocaust denial site is on its face not a reliable source, not even for the questions such as "what do deniers believe", as they can and do lie about what they believe. The most we can do is say "According to IHR, IHR believes...". But that's not even what's going on here. We've got other sources, not from denier sites, for the material in question; so we have no need to send readers to the hate sites. This issue should, therefore, be moot. --jpgordon&#8711;&#8710;&#8711;&#8710; 17:00, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, I disagree. I do find it surprising that we don't provide one single citation to the actual Leuchter Report in an article about the Leuchter Report.  We cite Mein Kampf in the article on Mein Kampf after all.  Remember the criteria for inclusion is Verifiability not Truth.  If we are going to discuss what is said in the report, we should cite the actual report saying it. Blueboar (talk) 17:31, 26 April 2009 (UTC)


 * No, Blueboar is right, acceptable as primary sources in articles about the groups themselves, or closely related topics such as Holocaust denial. Even a lie can be cited for an article about the lie. Squidfryerchef (talk) 17:32, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * What we actually have is a Scribd.com copy of the report. What needs to be understood is that the 'report' is actually a document published by the neo-Nazi Ernest Zundel's Samisdat Publishers, and contains a foreward by the Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson. It isn't just a copy of Leuchter's testimony. Dougweller (talk) 17:42, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If it contains more than testimony, that's a problem. Is the testimony archived anywhere more neutral? Squidfryerchef (talk) 18:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

A lot of books have forwards. How would a forward invalidate a book or article? Would you not publish a link to the book mein kampf on the mein kampf book article because the forward was by the Angel of Death Dr. Mengele? It's like saying, because the research document has a forward on it, some how the document is no longer valid or the Forward some how changes the substance of the original document. In good faith assume most people are intelligent enough to form their own opinions on a book or research document.

Would it help if all the hate, holocaust denial, extremist and other fringe and pseudo academic works were all put on Archive.org which is a neutral source? Would this help solve the problem here? I have yet to hear anything of any Wikipedia substance or merit as to why you wouldn't link to an original source the article was about.

Markacohen (talk) 11:58, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Our policy seems very clear on this:
 * (from Reliable sources): "Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged by reliable sources as fringe, pseudo-academic, or extremist may be used as sources of information about those organisations or individuals, especially in articles about those organisations or individuals..."
 * (from WP:SELFPUB): "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, especially in articles about themselves..."
 * Both of these statements seem to apply here... we may cite the Leuchter Report in the article about the Leuchter Report, especially for statements about what is contained in the Leuchter Report (ie quotes from the report). The fact that a published copy of the report has a forward that was not originally part of the report is easily dismissed... don't cite anything to the forward. Am I missing something? Blueboar (talk) 12:38, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * He's talking about linking. The hate site links that he added have been replaced by another link, so there has been a link to the original report for several days. Dougweller (talk) 12:53, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This is getting confused. First, the Leuchter report is, of course, different from the testimony given in court. In fact, the report was specifically disallowed as evidence in the Zündel trial. Instead, Leuchter was put on the stand as a witness directly. But Leuchter's report was published, twice (by Zündel and Irving) independently of the trial. And I hate to shout, but THERE IS A LINK TO THE FULL REPORT in Leuchter report. What is not in there is a link to a copy on a Holocaust denier's website. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah... that is very a different kettle of fish. While the report can (and should) be cited, there is no rule that says we have to link to any particular website that hosts it. Which citation points to the full report? Blueboar (talk) 13:05, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * As the author of all but a couple of sentences in Leuchter report, I feel it is worth commenting on something. The beauty of citing a point in the report with reliable sources is that the reliable source not only a) contains the explanation as to why the primary source is wrong, but b) references the point contained in the primary source, thus minimising the need to cite a quintessentially unreliable source.


 * In compliance with WP:FRINGE, I figured that this was the most appropriate way to write this article, as disparaging references that prevent fringe theories being construed as anything more are encouraged.


 * On a related note, there is an AN/I thread related to this topic and Mark's conduct, which is now starting to arouse suspicion. WilliamH (talk) 15:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

The whole substance and supposition of this entire exchange was to make this point, if you are going to write an article about the Leuchter Report or any report for that matter, you need to link to at least link the original document. If the document could not be found on a Neutral site, then the only alternative would be to link to it from a hate site - which is 100% valid according to Wikipedias policy Wikipedia:Verifiability#Questionable sources, Wikipedia:Fringe theories, and Wikipedia:PSCI.

I'm glad you guys put the hurt sensitive feeling and emotions aside for a moment in the name of making WP a better place by putting a copy of the document on a Neutral site (rather than no link at all). However, I think a better solution would be to put the document on a more long term web site like www.Archive.org as I'm guessing it will be a matter of time before the original document is deleted off Flickr.com and when it is I will put a copy on Archive.org where it can not be deleted and re-link it on the Leuchter Report.

So everything concerning only this specific issue seems to be Kosher for the time being, now on to the next struggle for putting emotional politics aside for neutrality and building a Wikipedia with proper sources.

The next conflict I was having was over Germar Rudolf, there is no Neutral web sites on the Internet where Germar Rudolfs books can be found. So I linked to a hate site to link to Germar Rudolf books online, and they were deleted for again reasons without Wikipedia substance or merit. What would be the solution here? To put the books on Archive.org a neutral site, before linking to them, so there aren't links to them from hate sites?

Question is this, can we talk more about the policy of linking to Hate sites from articles about individuals Holocaust Deniers, Extremists and Haters? There seems to be numerous links all over Wikipedia to hate sites from articles about haters, Holocaust Deniers, Extremists and so forth. It seems the policy is clear, you can link to hate sites from articles about individual Haters and Organizations.

I would like to put links on the Germar Rudolf page to the books he wrote, but coming up against the same group of people deleting the links for reasons that lack Wikipedia substance and merit. What do I do here?

Markacohen (talk) 15:34, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Possibly read again what I wrote (probably twice) pointing out that we already had a link to his works? Our guidelines on external links make it pretty clear that external links should add something to the article, and as we already link to his works, adding duplicate links just added the hate sites to the article. This is the second article where you've claimed there were no links where in fact there are, and in this case the link has been there for a long time. I don't understand why you didn't check before claiming that there were no links to his works. Dougweller (talk) 16:14, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think we also need to distinguish between citing something and linking to it. We don't have to link to a book or document when we cite it.  Doing so is mearly a convenience.  If we are going to provide a link as part of a citation, and we have a choice of websites to link to, then we should definitely link to the most neutral one available.  Does this mean that occasionally we will end up linking to a hate site when citing a document? Yes... but we hope to keep such links to a minimum.  Note, however, that this applies only to linking as part of a citation.  For non-citation linking there are different rules (see WP:EL).  Blueboar (talk) 16:58, 27 April 2009 (UTC)