User:Gulmammad/sandbox

Quotes
I was scared green. I replied in an equally mean voice, "Get out of my way, or I'll pee right through ya!" -R.F. 'The Feynman Problem-Solving Algorithm: (1) write down the problem; (2) think very hard; (3) write down the answer.''' {{hidden|1=|2= Sheylanli
 * I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something. -Richard Feynman
 * Physics isn't the most important thing. Love is. -Richard Feynman
 * If I could explain it(Feynman graphs) to the average person, I wouldn't have been worth the Nobel Prize. -Richard Feynman
 * A poet once said "The whole universe is in a glass of wine." We will probably never know in what sense he meant that, for poets do not write to be understood. But it is true that if we look at a glass closely enough we see the entire universe. -Richard Feynman
 * God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand. -Richard Feynman
 * What I cannot create, I do not understand. -Richard Feynman
 * I'd hate to die twice. It's so boring. -Richard Feynman
 * We scientists are clever — too clever — are you not satisfied? Is four square miles in one bomb not enough? Men are still thinking. Just tell us how big you want it. -R.F.
 * I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. Of course, you only live one life, and you make all your mistakes, and learn what not to do, and that's the end of you. -R.F.
 * ''One time I was in the men's room of the bar and there was a guy at the urinal. He was kind of drunk, and said to me in a mean-sounding voice, "I don't like your face. I think I'll push it in."
 * Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it. -R.F.
 * When you are solving a problem, don't worry. Now, after you have solved the problem, then that's the time to worry. -R.F.
 * Thirty-one years ago [1949], Dick Feynman told me about his "sum over histories" version of quantum mechanics. "The electron does anything it likes," he said. "It just goes in any direction at any speed, forward or backward in time, however it likes, and then you add up the amplitudes and it gives you the wave-function." I said to him, "You're crazy." But he wasn't. -Freeman J. Dyson, 1983
 * To those who do not know mathematics it is difficult to get across a real feeling as to the beauty, the deepest beauty, of nature ... If you want to learn about nature, to appreciate nature, it is necessary to understand the language that she speaks in. -R.F
 * Mathematics is not real, but it feels real. Where is this place? -R. F.



I wonder if you could have a look at the article Sheylanli. I believe that the sources for that article are all unreliable and there is a very persistance user who keeps insisting that the sources remain and that no tags requesting better sources be added to the article. To summarize the problem I see with the sources in the article:

http://azerbaijanfoundation.org/cgi-bin/e-cms/vis/vis.pl?s=001&p=0114&n=000535&prev=yes is being used to show that the village is a Kurdish village. My concern is that it is an Azerbaijani propaganda site.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/07/eu http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=324193&apc_state=henh http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/13508.htm#822 Are being used to show that the Armenian military controls the region when http://www.state.gov/p/eur/rls/or/13508.htm#822 clearly says that it's the local ethnic Armenians in the region

http://www.worldcitydb.com/lachinskiy_in_azerbaijan_state.html is being used to show the distance from Azerbaijan's captal Baku. No where on that site does it state the distance from Azerbaijan's captal. It does not to be a seem reliable to me.

http://www.maplandia.com/azerbaijan/azerbaydzhan-territor/seylanli/ is being used to show the geographic coordinates. It does not seem to be a reliable source to me.

Sharafnameh, Moscow, 1967, page 370, in Russian http://www.pan-iranism.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1218 are being used to give the history of the village. It is a web forum.

'A. Alekberov “Esseys on the study of Kurdish culture” in Russian, Baku 1936, page 40-62' is being used to give a history of the village. This does not seem a reliable source to me.

http://karabakh-doc.azerall.info/ru/anti-terror/ater21eng.htm http://www.bvahan.com/ArmenianWay/AW/Eng/provinces/kashatagh/sheylani.html Are being used to give the history and some historical monuments of the village. They don't seem like reliable sources to me. The first seems like an Azerbaijani propaganda site.

Please advise. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll address answers to above issues with the same order:
 * In the article's talk page I justified that why the first source is not Azerbaijani propaganda site at least from point of view of the content of the fact that is given in the article.
 * But two other sources, http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jun/07/eu and http://www.iwpr.net/?p=crs&s=f&o=324193&apc_state=henh clearly state what is written in the article. The source you brought here shows general concern of the U.S. Department of State.
 * Why? Give reasons.
 * If I could, I would send you the book Sharafnameh to convince you by the fact.
 * Then please find original of the reference to convince yourself rather than reporting here.
 * Why don't you think the second is not a propaganda site while both of them supports the fact? Because it is an Armenian site?


 * Summary: In very early times you teamed up with unknown IP's for edit warring on the same artilce and for violation of the 3RR (I didn't know by that time) you got me blocked. To stop the article form vandalism of anons, I got the article semi-protected. After that you started to vandalize article by your own and got warned here. More recently I saw newly created account started repeating your actions and I welcomed. Now what are you going to do by this report. Please stop edit warring on mentioned article and do some other useful edits rather than putting all your efforts on this article, which is about a very small administrative devision.   Gülməmməd  {{sup| Talk }} 04:55, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, to simplify matters, let's discuss one source at a time.

To ask a more abstract question about original images. How could we verify that this picture isn't just taken in my back yard? Merzul (talk) 17:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Lets start with the images in the article that claim that they are refugee camps built for the people who use to live in Sheylanli. Where is the sources for that. The image says that it was taken by the articles creator. I think this is a clear case of self publishing and original research. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 16:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Where does it claim that they are refugee camps built for the people who use to live in Sheylanli? Please reread the caption, it says Takhta Korpu Lachin winter pastures . If you wish to see the location on the Google Earth, here are the coordinates: {{coord |40|08|05|N|47|35|20|E}}. Please make sure to look at refugee camps in the same area as well, coordinates of some refugee camps are {{coord |40|05|38|N|47|31|52|E}}, {{coord |40|08|20|N|47|31|04|E}} (note the wight long "building" which is in the first image). Most of refugees from Lachin have been settled in winter pastures in that area which are not officially referred as refugee camps but graves of live people. I hope this will help to clear up things.  Gülməmməd {{sup| Talk }} 16:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That is very easy, who wants to make sure can come to see your back yard if you don't mind:). On serious notes, this discussion hasn't been opened on those images as you can see above and actually those images don't give so much importance to the article. But as a uploader of those images I convince you that they are not fake. They are accepted images in Google Earth and can be found here {{coord |40|08|05|N|47|35|20|E}}.  Gülməmməd {{sup| Talk }} 19:18, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Do we have a consensus that the images should be removed from the article as "trust me they're not fake" generally doesn't constitute a reliably sourced image? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 21:14, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Do they violate neutrality of the article or what? By reliable sources for images what do you mean? Do these [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] have sources which you are after? I'd stress on the first [1] image which clearly made in photoshop and pushed into article as a historical image. There are thousands of similar images that one can mention. If you wish, let us move on to discuss other issues related to the article.  Gülməmməd  {{sup| Talk }} 21:59, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not a valid response to an unsourced image. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, you guys could wait until someone looks into this. Unfortunately, this disputes seems a bit too complicated for me; hopefully someone will look into this soon enough. Until then, stay cool... meanwhile I'll check my back yard to make sure those pictures weren't taken there. ;) Merzul (talk) 22:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Various sources have been questioned simultaneously. I have looked at the article and cannot see that any of them are reliable. The burden is on the person who wants the material to be included to show that the source is reliable. We can comment here source by source. Which one should we deal with first? "Propaganda sites" may not be an adequate description but "advocacy sites" are unlikely to be suitable sources in this case. The Guardian clearly is a reliable source, but it does not seem to have said anything at all about the subject of this article. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The Guardian says: "...Armenian forces occupied the mountainous region within Azerbaijan..." which clearly supports the given fact because Lachin is in that mountainous region so is the village.  Gülməmməd {{sup| Talk }} 23:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Most of the entire Caucasus is mountainous. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that the article get temporarily stubbed and that we discuss here each source for inclusion one at a time before adding it to the article.Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * On second thought, I'm questioning whether the article could even be stubbed as it's difficult to find anything reliable that this village even exists. This is all that a google search can yield. Would an AFD be appropriate in this situation? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 00:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Before going ahead please first answer all my questions those I addressed above.


 * 1) Where does it claim that they are refugee camps built for the people who use to live in Sheylanli?
 * 2) And important one about images. Then continue the discussion with questions those you opened RSN for the article.  Gülməmməd {{sup| Talk }} 01:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Irrelevant. Do you even have a single reliable source that this village even exists? We're not even getting into whether or not it is notable for inclusion in wikipedia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:04, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes the village exists (or existed). It is mentioned in Karapetian's book "Armenian Cultural Monuments in the region of Karabagh" as a Kurdish village which has lost its historical name and whose inhabitants, along with the inhabitants of a nearby village (Katos), spoke Kurdish when he visited the place in 1985. The "several historical, cultural and architectural monuments" are a ruined Armenian monastery near Katos and its medieval graveyard which was destroyed between 1989 and 1992 when under Azeri occupation. Meowy 19:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Meowy, you are right the village existed since it was destroyed during the NK war. I have also read Karapetian's book and there the author introduces new names, Armenian version of all names of villages in Lachin. The author approximates the name of village Katos to be something in Armenian language like Gutuz. However, according to kurdish historian Shamil Askerov and many other Azerbaijani scholars who did research on the names of kurdish villages in Azerbaijan (published in Azerbaijani), the name Katos doesn't have any relation with what is said to be Gutuz. The name Katos in Kurmanji means Land of potatoes. The story behind is that in the late 18th century people from Sheylanli realized that there was a land close by Sheylanli (about 15 km to the southeast of the village) which was very productive for potatoes and a couple of families decided to settle in that place which later named as Katos -- Land of potatoes. That was the starting point of the history of Katos referred as historical Gutuz by Armenians. Regarding the Armenian monasteries in Azerbaijan, before Islam in Caucasian Albania, where is now modern Azerbaijan, the religion was Christianity. Since later the religion in Azerbaijan was changed to Islam, now Christian Armenians claim everything that has sign of Christianity, historically to be belong them which is obviously not true as one you mentioned above ...Armenian monastery near Katos.... And the last part of your comment, Lachin, and so villages in Lachin, was Azerbaijani region and occupied by Armenian. Above you are saying "under Azeri occupation" which is obviously propaganda according to the followings: {{cquote|Karabakh Armenian forces broke through to Armenia at the Azerbaijani town of Lachin, creating the so-called Lachin corridor. At Lachin, roughly ten kilometers separates Armenia from Karabakh. -- ''Human Rights Watch. Azerbaijan: Seven Years of Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. 1994. ISBN:1564321428. The biggest wave of IDPs came in 1993 as Armenian forces from Nagorno-Karabakh, with support from the Republic of Armenia, forced out the Azeri civilian population successively from seven provinces (Lachin, Kelbajar, Agdam, Fizuli, Jibrail, Qubatli and Zangelan) adjacent to Nagorno-Karabakh. -- ''Roberta Cohen, Francis Mading Deng. The Forsaken People: Case Studies of the Internally Displaced. 1998. ISBN:0815715145.''}}  Gülməmməd {{sup| Talk }} 01:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Is "Armenian Cultural Monuments in the region of Karabagh" a reliable source (not a rhetorical question)? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * No, it's not. But since both Azerbaijani sources (sited by Gulmammad) and Armenian sources (sited by Meowy and also those included in the article such as this: ) agree that the village of Sheylanli exists and it used to have a Kurdish population, I don't see what the problem is here. Is it actually disputed that the village exists or what? And also, we have many sources that Armenia is occupying the region. So what is actually the problem here? What is being disputed? Grandmaster (talk) 04:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * If I understand correctly, you're saying that the sources are unreliable but we should accept them anyway? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * From where you understand this? Point to it by bringing quotation.  Gülməmməd {{sup| Talk }} 13:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Related but different article Sheylan, more reinsertion of unreliable sources
In a related article please see Sheylan (not to be confused with Sheylanli). user:Gulmammad has just reinserted a blog as a source. I'm really finding all of this incredibly frustrating. So much time and energy needs to be expended just to ensure that reliable sources need to be used. It is very frustrating that admins will tar both sides in this dispute with the same brush regardless of whether one side is tendentiously adding unreliable sources and the other is trying to build an encyclopedia with reliable sources. The way that this should be dealt with is that readdition of unreliable sources should be treated like vandalism. Sorry for the rant but I'm finding this really frustrating. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I think we would all be best served by focusing the discussion on A: What sources are available, and B: How reliable are they? Could both sides here please respond below, listing the sources they know to exist and their views on why those sources are or are not reliable? I think for now it would be best if we would forego engaging in debate, that can come later, let's first get a good synopsis of where things stand. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This is just quick response to Pocopocopocopoco's last comment. It appears that you are just edit warring on these articles because I have been working on them. Here I clearly pointed out that there is an article that has only one source which is a blog. If you are not edit warring and trying to build an encyclopedia with reliable sources why didn't you mention it here?

I completely agree with Seraphimblade but since you are one who is unsatisfied with sources, please first point out clearly why do you think sources are not reliable for a given fact. Then I'll respond.  Gülməmməd Talk 04:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

To Answer Seraphims question above. I did a google search for both Sheylanli and for Seylanli (possibly the Azerbaijani spelling of the village if the village even exists) and could not find a single reliable source. I found some maplandia.com type user created maps I also found blogs and the advocacy/propaganda sites that Gulmammad has been using. These are not reliable sources because they don't undergo any type of verification or editorial review and might also be considered extremist sources. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 04:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Please note that the article starts with "Sheylanli (Azerbaijani: Şeylanlı)". For Şeylanlı Google gives 499 results one of which is this. Now do you believe that village is exist?  Gülməmməd Talk 04:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It may be helpful if you discuss the notability question first. Why not try and bring in some editors who are interested in improving the coverage of Geography topics? The purpose of this noticeboard is to advise on sources. Unless the questions are rephrased the only answer you are likely to have from this noticeboard is that The Guardian is reliable and the other sources mentioned do not seem to be. If someone would like to propose another source for more detailed consideration then I am sure that editors here will be pleased to discuss it. Itsmejudith (talk) 06:36, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Why do we need a source that the village is occupied by Armenia? It is pretty obvious. CIA World Factbook says: Armenia supports ethnic Armenian secessionists in Nagorno-Karabakh and since the early 1990s has militarily occupied 16% of Azerbaijan; over 800,000 mostly ethnic Azerbaijanis were driven from the occupied lands and Armenia; Lachin district of Azerbaijan, where the village is located, is one of those regions occupied by Armenia. I don't see here any issue that is worth lengthy discussion, the fact is pretty obvious. --Grandmaster (talk) 08:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You need a source for most things. CIA World Factbook is a good one but from what you have said above it does not explictly say that this district is one of the ones occupied. Itsmejudith (talk) 12:39, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think we need sources for obvious facts. Just take a look at the map, Lachin is right between Armenia and Karabakh, and Azeri and Kurdish populated areas in between are all occupied. But if the source is needed, please see below:


 * Karabakh Armenian forces broke through to Armenia at the Azerbaijani town of Lachin, creating the so-called Lachin corridor. At Lachin, roughly ten kilometers separates Armenia from Karabakh


 * Human Rights Watch. Azerbaijan: Seven Years of Conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. 1994. ISBN:1564321428


 * Grandmaster (talk) 05:42, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Another one:


 * The biggest wave of IDPs came in 1993 as Armenian forces from Nagorno-Karabakh, with support from the Republic of Armenia, forced out the Azeri civilian population successively from seven provinces (Lachin, Kelbajar, Agdam, Fizuli, Jibrail, Qubatli and Zangelan) adjacent to Nagorno-Karabakh.


 * Roberta Cohen, Francis Mading Deng. The Forsaken People: Case Studies of the Internally Displaced. 1998. ISBN:0815715145


 * This one lists all the districts of Azerbaijan, occupied by Armenian forces. I hope this resolves the problem. Grandmaster (talk) 06:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * This discussion is useless since I have responded all his previous claims and he always appeared with new ones. This user is edit warrior and does all these because he wasn't able to push unrealistic materials into the article. Above he claims that he doesn't believe that the village exist, if it is so, then I invite you to see this edit. I am questioning; A person who doesn't believe that the village is exist would does the following edit "...and serves as part of the crucial Lachin corridor that connects Armenia with the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic "? This shows he is an edit warrior and rationally proves what I said above. It's very frustrating to deal with claims of this user and suggest to close the discussion as it appears to be useless.  Gülməmməd  Talk 15:08, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Like I mentioned above, I think the best way is for Sheylanli and Sheylan to be stubbed and for the sources to be discussed in this noticeboard before adding them. I'm sure that a discussion of notability would also be prudent but right now the article contains only unreliable sources and I presume we don't want that in wikipedia so they should be removed. I also believe the article should be edit protected after stubbing and that new material be added using the edit protected request template (I forget the official name of it). Thoughts? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I still am having a difficult time following this discussion, as, I imagine, are many here. Might it be possible for both of you to restrict your comments to content matters, such as sources and article material, and refrain from commenting on one another? Seraphimblade Talk to me 01:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Seraphim, to summarize the discussion above. Sheylanli has 3 sources that could be considered reliable (guardian.co.uk,iwpr.net,state.gov) but they do not refer directly to the subject matter and they also do not back up what is being written in the article. The rest of the sources in Sheylanli are unreliable. Sheylan has no reliable sources. Both articles make heavy use of newsgroup forums and blogs for their information. Sheylanli also has a couple photos that were taken by the author of the article and there is no way to determine if the photos are what they claim to be. The author of the article simply says "Trust me, it's not fake". Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Let's keep discussion on one format which you have started with in the very beginning and please don't try to change it once your question answered. Before moving on, I want to make clear two points about your question right above my previous comment; There, you asked you didn't believe that the village did exist and I answered. Now do you believe that it does exist? And a contraversal question: Assume I believe you wanted to build encyclopedia with reliable sources and needed reliable source to believe the village did exist. Then what was your source when you did one of your very early edits to the article saying "...and serves as part of the crucial Lachin corridor that connects Armenia with the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic "? Regarding your other questions, please address them in a clear way such as first give the facts which have been "pushed" into the article and "unreliable" sources which support them and why do you think they are unreliable sources from the point of view of the fact. Also, you have been questioning for the sources of images. You might have been right in that but I asked you to let me know if these [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] images have sources which you are after? I'd stress on the first [1]  image which clearly made in photoshop and pushed into many articles as a historical image. Clearly mentioned images don't make any difference with [this] one. There are thousands of similar images that one can mention. However, as I already told you above, these are accepted images in Google Earth 40.13472°N, 47.58889°W. Please respond to my entire comment before moving on. Thank you.  Gülməmməd  Talk 02:41, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Since this discussion with the author of the articles is obviously a case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT with regard to reliable sources. I ask the admins following this thread to act on my proposal to stub and protect the article and we can add later expand the article by discussing sources on this noticeboard. If anyone has any other suggestions please post them. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * At this point you completely confused me; please can you bring a complete quote from here WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT that best fits this situation and supports your point of view? I'd also would like to ask Seraphimblade related to this as I might misunderstood it. Please continue discussion and answer my questions above as they arose while answering your questions. Otherwise tags should be lifted from the articles. Gülməmməd Talk 04:41, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Seraphim asked that we discuss the article and not each other but since you asked, basically I see you as stonewalling on the issue of reliable sources. Many people have said that the article doesn't have reliable source but you keep bringing up irrelevant stuff in response such as pictures of Armenians from centuries ago and images of Toronto from a century ago and some African article. How is any of that relevant to reliable sources of the articles in question? If the sources are unreliable they should and will be removed. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You haven't answered any of my questions, instead when question was asked you changed the topic. You said you didn't believe those images to be realistic, because they didn't have reliable sources.Then I brought many counter examples to show you that this practice is widely accepted in Wikipedia and your claims are not constructive which based on violation of NPOV as could be seen from your edits to the article 1 and 2 without any sources. Once you couldn't place those unrealistic (because the village is very far from what is called Lachin corridor not as you said "crucial part of LC") information in the article and your "puppets", anons and Sevan79, have been disabled by semi-protection of the article, you brought discussion here and claimed that village didn't exist. This is why, I don't think any reliable source can make you happy on this issue.  Gülməmməd Talk 13:20, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Enough, please discuss the issue of reliable sources in the article. Sheylan has two quotes, one of them is a blog, the other is "Esseys on the study of Kurdish culture" which is not a reliable source. Do you have a reliable source for this article? If not, I am going to put it up for deletion. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 22:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I have nominated Sheylanli tribe (né Sheylan) for deletion. If you wish to participate in the deletion debate please post here. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 16:05, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Sheylanli tribe

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Not notable and no reliable sources that describe this tribe. See WP:N and WP:RS.


 * Delete. A very lengthy and patient attempt was made to get reliable sources through a discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard as well as a discussion of notability was made on the talk page. All that resulted was that one of the sources that use to be a blog was replace with a forum and the title of he article was renamed. This article is obviously not notable as there isn't any secondary (or primary) reliable sources describing this tribe. Currently the article has three sources and none of them are notable, 2 out of the three are forums. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 15:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. if can be proved by one more source that such a tribe within the Kurds of Azerbaijan indeed exists. I am not a speacialist in this field but for academic purposes we should have as many articles as it relates to the lost/forgotten people/tribes and ethnicities.  --Aynabend (talk) 19:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * It was a long exhaustive process trying to get reliable sources regarding this tribe but none were found. The article should be deleted with no prejudice to recreation if information can be found down the road. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 20:13, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. Pocopocopocopoco has been putting all his efforts to delete articles both about Sheylanli tribe and Sheylanli village because he hasn't been able to push his unrealistic informations into either of these articles. First times to avoid 3RR, he teamed up with many unknown IP's for edit warring and to stop anons I got articles semi-protected. After that Poco started to vandalise articles by his own and warned here. Some of his early unrealistic edits are 1 and 2 (as you can see from its location the village has nothing to do with Lachin corridor). Then he started to attack the articles by many different ways, in contradiction with his edits to the article he claimed that village and so tribe doesn't exist. You can see his whole claims both about Sheylanli village and Sheylanli tribe here. Its obvious that Poco's AfD is not constructive and is another way of trying to get ride of the article (edit warring). This article is about a kurdish tribe and is very important for the history and culture of Kurds in Azerbaijan.  Gülməmməd Talk 20:58, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete Lack of any verifiable sources to prove this even exists let alone prove notability. Google searches provides only wikipedia hits with google scholar and books providing zero. -- neon white talk 22:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Sheylanli is a little known, but absolutely real and interesting, from an ethnographic point of view, Kurdish community. They are described in details in the Soviet Academy of Sciences’ journal Sovetskaya Etnografiya ("Soviet Ethnography"), No. 5-6: 1932, pp. 125-135. They are referred to as Шейланы (Sheylany) there. Also, there are several interesting photos from the Sheylanli village in that journal and it would be great to have them on Wikipedia. Another reference to this tribe can be found in Alesker Alekperov’s Studies in Archaeology and Ethnography of Azerbaijan (a monograph in Russian; Baku, 1960), which lists the Sheylanli among other Kurdish clans such as Babaly, Sultanly, Kullukhchi, etc (p. 143). Tatiana Aristova in her Transcaucasian Kurds (also in Russian; Moscow, 1966) mentions Sheylanli among the poorest Kurdish communities of Azerbaijan and places it, along with Zerty and Minkend, in the Lachin district (p. 54). There is also a list of the Kurdish family names found in Sheylanli there (ibid, p. 48). True, there are not many English-language sources on the topic, but we can translate the verified and verifiable information from these Russian publications. We need more on Caucasian ethnology, not less.--KoberTalk 22:17, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If it is little known then it's unlikely to be notable. -- neon white talk 22:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * There are myriads of things that are little known in the West, but constitute an important part of national histories on the other side of the former Iron Curtain. Given the current upsurge of scholarly interest in the Caucasian cultures and a striking ethnic diversity of this region, I find the article completely suitable for Wikipedia.--KoberTalk 04:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. Per Kober's comment, it is mentioned in many scientific journals/sources and all of us know that such material is notable. If it is not available trough Google search engine, then we should make it available by bringing it up to our encyclopedia from archives. This is one of the main purposes of Wikipedia, otherwise people could find what they need from other sources.  Gülməmməd Talk 22:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. Not by any means my expertise, but these sorts of weird niche topics are exactly what many people look to find on Wikipedia - in particular, for the references to more extensive coverage. Can translations of the references be Wikisourced?Patent.drafter (talk) 01:39, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Obscure and minor mention in few old Soviet journals does not warrant an article in Wikipedia. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * If the sources can be translated, sure they do. Protonk (talk) 02:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Please note that a Soviet journal and two monographs I have cited are the sources which I found in a very quick research. I am not an expert on the Kurdish population, and there may be many other sources published in the recent years. --KoberTalk 05:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete Remember, truth is not the criterion for inclusion in wikipedia. This tribe may exist but sources available to us and verifiable by an english speaking editor may not exist.  If someone wants to translate some of these journals for us and wikisource it, then we can certainly proceed.  Old obscure soviet journals are no less appropriate as sources than many of the current obscure journals we use here.  However, if sources cannot be found or made available in english, then there isn't really a good reason to retain the article. Protonk (talk) 02:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Please note that the sources in Russian are fully accepted in Wikipedia. If in case you need to translate a text from Russian to English, here is the tool for that, Google language tool(although is not perfect).  Gülməmməd Talk 03:10, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Sheylanlis

 * 1) Bulletin de la Société d'Anthropologie de Lyon, H. Georg (1897, p. 173), Sandjak de Bayazid (Turkey), Alachguerd district, Seilanli, number of tents or houses 1150, population 5750 (as off 1883).
 * 2) Bulletin de la Société d'Anthropologie de Lyon, H. Georg (1897, p. 174), Sandjak de Monch (Turkey), Plaine de Monch, Seylanli, number of tents or houses 120, population 600 (as off 1883).
 * 3) Bulletin de la Société d'Anthropologie de Lyon, H. Georg, Libraire (1895, p. 195), mentions tribe as Seylanli in Urmi.

Interesting stuff
Articles for deletion/Myra Shackley Articles for deletion/2008 Georgia-Russia crisis Articles for deletion/Salvation Union of South Ossetia Articles for deletion/Sheylanli tribe Articles for deletion/Azerbaijani administrative divisions of Nagorno-Karabakh Nominated by Golbez, defended by Poco

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